View Full Version : Ever taken a course from Trident Concepts?
I'm thinking of taking a Combative Carbine course from Trident Concepts this year but would like some feedback from anyone here who has been a part of their curricula.
The price sure looks good ($350 for a three day course), and I might do this if my spot on the wait list for the Magpul Dynamic Carbine course doesn't pan out.
Opinions?
Thanks,
Pat
Shawn Dodson
02-08-10, 18:35
I've taken 3 courses with Trident Concepts. Jeff Gonzales is a top notch instructor. You'll get your money's worth and more.
I've taken both his handgun and carbine courses. Excellent instructor. Extended range sessions really pushes students to perform. He has demanding accuracy and time requirements. You will definately learn alot. You will also come away with a better understanding of things that you need to work on. Don't hesitate to take a class from him.
NCPatrolAR
02-08-10, 19:02
Took two of his specialty handgun classes. The material was good but I didn't care for the high round counts or the only downtime being when we were loading mags which was also when we were receiving the next block of instruction
I took a carbine class from him and loved it. Jeff is a great instructor.
I took the Advanced Combative Pistol class a few years ago. I would recommend it. There is not doubt that Jeff is an intense instructor who moves right along and pushes. It probably has something to do with his previous job, and how he got it.
I shot around 2800 rounds in three days (not that high round count necessarily means anything). I was fatigued by the end of it. Some people don't like that, some do. You will get very solid training and techniques, and have lots of opportunity to develop the skills.
I took his Pistol I class and long-distance module 4-5 years ago at Quantico.
Best-suited for folks already squared away. Those that suck will fall behind very quickly.
Stoppage clearance will become automatic after training with Jeff.
I shot a 20LPI 1911, and luckily my hands were sufficiently calloused. If you aren't already shooting a lot, you may want to consider gloves or bandages for his pistol class. Don't know about his carbine class. I don't think he ever came back to Virginia.
Recommended.
Is that price right? $350 total for three days?
Is that price right? $350 total for three days?
Apparently, T.C. has lowered their pricing. A smart move in this economy. $350 for 3 days, anyone who is serious to get out and train would be all over that price.:eek:
Apparently, T.C. has lowered their pricing. A smart move in this economy. $350 for 3 days, anyone who is serious to get out and train would be all over that price.:eek:
Based on just this one post or other information? Have links?
I see a course announcement on Lightfighter at $550 and the TC website still says $600.
Key stroke error, my bad. That should have read that both carbine and pistol classes that are two days are now $350. A really good deal.
Also, I noticed on the T.C. web site, my source, that the one 5 day class on the schedule was also price reduced to $950.
That is trying to bring in business. Good on them.
I took his Combative Pistol class and due to weather we went through about 1100 rounds in a single day that lasted from 8am to 6:30pm. He did an excellent job going over one handed manipulation, however, I often felt that I was "shoveling shit at the backstop" - pulling the trigger without getting any benefit for the shots fired. Some people like high round classes and I see their benefit, if there is instruction taking place too. I learned a lot more in Louis Awerbuck's class where we fired 550 rounds over three days total than in this class!
I would see if there are other classes available before recommending him. Since I didn't receive much benefit despite the high number of rounds fired.
Also keep in mind that $350 for a two day class is an ok deal. Most tier one instructors charge about $200/day for classes so it's only about $25 / day in savings.
re: price, I was operating off the OP
($350 for a three day course)
Thanks for all of the replies guys,
My only real hesitation is that I'm #2 on the wait list for the Magpul Dynamics course in November, but the TriCon course is in May. Hell, I'm tempted to do both, but my money also goes to a wife and three kids...
Honestly, the $350 for the TriCon course is very hard to pass up. His class is much closer to me, and I live in the sticks. Being able to go home every night after class makes a difference; free chow and a known roof over my head! Either way, they both sound solid.
Thanks for sharing your experiences,
Pat
I have been a student twice. I would not hesitate to do another class. I will second what Vinh said, you need to have some skills or you will be left behind. The handgun and the Carbine class were not basic classes. Make sure of the following;
A- Have a way to carry lots of mags and ammo to the line (pouches, pockets, or adrop pouch behind the line.
B- make sure you have water with you at the line, a protein bar/ Cliff bar might be needed as well, if you can get distracted between meal breaks.
C- DO NOT SHOOT A 1911A1 with 20 LPI checkering with out gloves, unless you want your hands F***ed up. The checkering will turn them to hamburger. Take moleskin, duct tape or a file to the checkering. I shot after day one with duct tape on my fingers and hands. It was a large roll so when the blood would cause the old tape to fall off I still had plenty more.
D- get with the program and stay with the program. Be prepared to keep up.
Re: the high round counts
They have a place, lots of reps in a short period. I got to the point with the pistol and the carbine where I could tell when the fundamentals were off (stance, tension, presentation, and a feel for a dry/ fubar gun). Jeff's courses of fire and round count allowed me after years of training to focus on the fundamentals so that they became reflexive. One could argue that these ephinanies may have happened on my own, but I doubt it.
Your money and time will be well spent at a TRICON class.
Regards
Matthew Renz
Iraq Ninja
02-09-10, 14:17
Jeff also has an excellent book for sale on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097544350X?ie=UTF8&seller=A24QPHEL1SKNBO&sn=Trident%20Concepts%20LLC
It costs a bit more than most books, but the thing is big and covers just about everything for the pistol and the carbine.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S324M2nrL._SS500_.jpg
I thought Jeff's class was excellent, but agree you need to be competent before taking it, even his introductory courses. It was physically and mentally exhausting and there was little downtime, but you get your moneys worth. Knowing that ahead of time, I loaded between 35 and 50 magazines each evening before class and was able to rest during breaks.
My experience was similar to MTR7's as far as the round count. I had a pretty solid fundamental foundation that became more automatic after that many reps condensed into that period of time.
We had guys (first formal class) that didn't wear gloves and their hands were also hamburger by the end of the first day. One of my coworkers teased me about my mechanix gloves, at the beginning of TD1. His hands were completely trashed by the end of the day. The beginning of TD2, he wore cycling gloves which dissintigrated by the end of 2. On TD3, he showed up with a set of mechanix gloves. All that to say, if you go, wear goves.
Thanks for the heads up about the book. I'd seen it before, but didn't know much about it. Stay safe.
Iraq Ninja
02-09-10, 18:00
For those of you who have attended, what weapon failures did you see with these high round counts?
Mr. Ninja....
Well in the pistol class, I can not recall any ones pistol going down hard, although I must admit I was well in my own little world attempting to get it right and keep the 1911 fed. I did have one GI mag (1980 VINTAGE, OUT OF WRAPPER NEW) craped the bed day one. I did have about six bad rounds (old Winchester white box, when it was good) that failed to feed because they had glue from the box on the case.
All other malfunctions were induced by me, after all I have been that guy twice and do own at least one MOOSE COCK patch. The Kimber TLE 2(internal extractor) had about 8 to 10K through it at that point, sorry no log book on that one. That Kimber runs, and runs and hell it makes me look like I can shoot, no small feat.
Carbine class at QMCB (written up in SWAT):
My 6920 ran fine with wolf military classic ammo and GI mags with Wolf springs and MAG PUL followers. Only problems were operator induced, and not many of those, as I remember a couple of failures to roll the gun over after loading to check bolt status, a couple of failures to seat (one Pat saw and pointed out to Jeff as I recall)
One USMC M 4 carbine went down hard day two, I think the fellows from the WTB who were shooting it said it was a bolt breaking/ cracking.
One Bushmaster T&E piston gun shit the bed day one as I recall. I think the piston came apart, as in chunks of metal. One Bushmaster that belonged to FED type never ran that well as I recall. But one the other hand a local civie ran a Bushie nest to me no problem. One cool guy short gun build had some problems through out the course, can not rember what may have been the root cause.
Hope that helps
Matt
We had no weapon failures at the carbine class of his I attended. This included 5 Shrubmasters, if you can believe that! I still don't trust them from numerous other failures I've seen, but they performed ok with the modifications I had done to them. I had gone over all my guys weapons previously and replaced the BM BCGs with FN BCGs, staked the castle nuts, etc and everyone lubed with slip2000 at the beginning and at lunch of each TD. We had a BCM and several FNs that had been modified to M4 configuration as well. The rest were Colts.
Now that I think about it, one of my guys did have a problem at the end of TD3 with his receiver extension coming loose. I found out he had taken it apart to paint it, and didn't restake the castle nut when he put it back on.
We had other equipment failures though. 2 of the 3 EOTech 552s on the line shit the bed (battery boxes), one Matech BUIS (that appeared to have been driven from coast to coast being dragged behind a semi) would deploy each time the action was cycled, either manually or while being fired, and the guys using Ultramax ammo had two case head separations. I will have to go back over my notes and see if there was anything else, but that's all I can recall right now.
FYI, Matech repaired the BUIS for the shooter with problem, inspite of the hard life it had seen. Kudos to them for good support.
All,
Thanks for the valuable input. I've applied for the Combative Carbine course and am looking forward to it, should be a good course.
Best,
Pat
Jeff puts on an excellent course. It is definitely worth the time and resources.
As others have said, he runs a fast paced course get some sleep and stay hydrated to ensure you stay focused.
Jeff’s Carbine Operator’s Course is also excellent and should be on the short list of courses for anyone that is serious about running and AR-15.
I took Jeff's combative pistol 1 followed by combative carbine 1 with the shooting on the move module the following year. The pace of the classes, high round counts, and method of instruction forced me to take an honest look at my ability with my daily carry weapon as well as the carbine. We had a mix of guys on the range - federal L.E., SWAT cops, prior military and civilians - about 20 in all. On the last day, we shot a qual and 4 of the 20 received a trident concepts certificate of training for the combative carbine 1 course. Everyone who received a certificate earned it - and everyone else respected that the certificates weren't handed out to everyone. I had a great time and learned a lot, so for me it was worth the investment.
Wow, so you have to meet certain standards to receive a certificate from the course? I've never heard of that before. Anyone else do that?
If you don't meet his standards, you get a POST letter of training saying you attended. If you do meet his standards, you get a certificate of successful completion. The carbine class of his I was in was all LE and about half "passed". The other have received training letters. I liked that method, however several others in the class did not. All the other classes I've attended did not use this method. Stay safe
I attended two of Jeff's classes last year: combative carbine and combative pistol. I thoroughly enjoyed both. The Carbine class kicked my ass because I don't practice all that much, yet I managed to squeeze out a certificate. I found his pistol class to be much easier because I shoot pistol every week.
Both classes have stringent accuracy standards. If you can't shoot an AR freestyle at 50 yards and consistently hit inside an 8" circle you will not pass. Same standard for pistol at 25 yards. These are achievable standards without stress - most people should be able to achieve 4" groups or better offhand.
A few pieces of advice:
- Don't run a suppressor unless you want to have to lube your gun every time you load out on ammo (I ran a 10.5" upper with an AAC M4-2000 the whole time and it was a chore to keep it wet)
- Bring two of everything in case something breaks AND tools. On day 2, I managed to blow apart a PRI gas buster charging handle, and the screws in my timney trigger came loose from the workout; duck tape came in handy on the loose hammer and trigger pins as a stop gap measure
- Make your weapon as light as possible. Extra weight causes fatigue and it would be a damn shame to fail the final cause you are tired on day 3. I showed up with a UBR stock, suppressor and HK mags. Next time I am showing up with a SOPMOD, no can and PMAGS. I also highly recommend an Aimpoint T-1. Best pound for pound optic
- Stay hydrated. My class was in 80 degree heat with neat 100% humidity. I would make a point of drinking 500ml every time we loaded out on ammo. Over 3 days, I drank 15 liters of water and was still dehydrated every night
- Bring knee pads and gloves if you have them; also electronic ears is preferred (I used ear plugs and was chastised). I was on an end and had trouble hearing
Overall good training and I am currently slated to do Combative Carbine again in June up at Sig Arms with Jeff. If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer.
-Tony
Jeff also has an excellent book for sale on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097544350X?ie=UTF8&seller=A24QPHEL1SKNBO&sn=Trident%20Concepts%20LLC
It costs a bit more than most books, but the thing is big and covers just about everything for the pistol and the carbine.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S324M2nrL._SS500_.jpg
I bought this book after I saw this post. I'm about 3/4 through the pistol portion and I like it a lot (although if I could get in touch with Mr. Gonzales, I would offer to trade him some proofing and editing on my part for instruction on his). He seems to take a very practical, no BS approach, which I appreciate, and explains why particular techniques are recommended in ways that I can follow and base an independent judgement upon. Thank you for the recommendation.
Gonzales is a great instructor and a class act. He does run a fast-paced and intense class. That said, I'm far from HSLD and I kept up.
By way of the class act, my department was close to ground zero of the D.C. sniper case. In the early days of the case, we suddenly became a rifle department. I ordered Jeff's book. He emailed me, said that the book was on its way, and offered whatever assistance he could. He actually offered to provide initial rifle training for my departmentfree of charge, but the bureaucrats in the front office couldn't get organized and he had to withdraw his offer.
The next year, he emailed me about a carbine class he was offering in Delaware and provided me with a gratis spot in the class. You don't find many private sector instructors with that kind of class.
Taken several and repeated a few, from CP/CC1 - ACP/ACC they are very well organized and run.
Can be overwhelming esp. if you are not used to training.
The building block approach is excellent, day 1 builds for day 2 and so on. Very little wasted time and there is a purpose for each drill.
If you don't meet his standards, you get a POST letter of training saying you attended. If you do meet his standards, you get a certificate of successful completion. The carbine class of his I was in was all LE and about half "passed". The other have received training letters. I liked that method, however several others in the class did not. All the other classes I've attended did not use this method. Stay safe
I think this is a great thing, and I think anyone that doesn't is an idiot and shouldn't even get the letter. I would like to see more classes with a standard.
Jay Cunningham
02-26-10, 20:40
and I think anyone that doesn't is an idiot and shouldn't even get the letter
What are you referring to here?
What are you referring to here?
I'm saying that in a world of kindergarten graduation ceremonies, trophies just for "participating" and the like it's refreshing to see standards and not just a certificate for showing up.
I was kind of surprised in the first training class that I attended that everyone got the same certificate, and that basically all the paper meant was that you stood there on the line for three days and didn't shoot the instructor. I've gotten used to it now, but it's nice to see an instructor that holds the students to a standard, and I think it's pathetic that anyone would object to having to actual demonstrate proficiency after three days.
Are you there to Learn, or earn a merit badge to add to the collection?
I don't have a problem with standards... I spent a career training to them and meeting them and trying to surpass them...
While I have no sympathy to anyone who does not meet the standard and then whines about it.. at the same time, not everyone who meets the standard is necessarily learning anything.
Jay Cunningham
02-26-10, 21:11
There are lots of very highly regarded instructors who don't hand out certificates or letters or anything else like that. At this point I don't even expect one.
Let's not turn this into a comparison of instructors where everyone rushes to defend their favorite, or breaks their arms reaching to insinuate that was the intent of my post.
My comment was specifically meant in regards to someone that would attend a class like that and then complain that they didn't meet the standard and didn't receive the same certificate as someone else.
I've never trained with Jeff, and I've never taking a firearms class with a test at the end to get a full cert., I just think it's a refreshing difference and an interesting concept.
Roger's Shooting school is another example of a school who has a test that must be passed to Qualify for a Certificate.
Jeff also has an excellent book for sale on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097544350X?ie=UTF8&seller=A24QPHEL1SKNBO&sn=Trident%20Concepts%20LLC
It costs a bit more than most books, but the thing is big and covers just about everything for the pistol and the carbine.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S324M2nrL._SS500_.jpg
Thanks Ninja, always looking for solid reads. I like Lamb's Green Eyes and Black Rifles too...
To the OP, I have heard very good things about Trident and Gonzales, but haven't personally trained with him.... If the price is $350 AND you can sleep in your own bed each night, not sure how you pass it up.
Jay Cunningham
02-27-10, 13:28
Let's not turn this into a comparison of instructors where everyone rushes to defend their favorite, or breaks their arms reaching to insinuate that was the intent of my post.
My comment was specifically meant in regards to someone that would attend a class like that and then complain that they didn't meet the standard and didn't receive the same certificate as someone else.
I've never trained with Jeff, and I've never taking a firearms class with a test at the end to get a full cert., I just think it's a refreshing difference and an interesting concept.
I don't see any of the hyperbole you described happening.
The topic is either legitimate or not - and since you responded so passionately to it earlier we can all assume that you consider it legit. To use your own rhetorical flourish - don't break your ankles backpedaling. (Hey, this is fun!)
I find it interesting that you suggested that there was a rush to defend favorite instructors - what I read was Harv and myself posting about the individual trainee and not really about instructors.
I honestly can't remember any threads where there was any talk about earning certs or letters. I don't know if certain departments or if certain units require "passing" vs. "attended" for any reason. It does seem like a good internal method for instructors to gauge whether a returning student can progress to the next level (prerequisite). It can also be shared info between instructors for similar assessment - but the instructors would have to be extremely close with each other for this to matter.
In reality, does instructor X require a "passing" from instructor Y?
since you responded so passionately to it earlier
I would hate to think that this is what counts for "passion" in your world.
I think this is a great thing, and I think anyone that doesn't is an idiot and shouldn't even get the letter. I would like to see more classes with a standard.
Saying someone is an idiot for crying that they didn't meet a standard and didn't get a certificate is hardly passionate, and God knows you've scrutinized, dissected, and even edited and locked enough of my posts by now to know that a post like that from me is hardly even getting warmed up. ;)
I can see where my statement was worded poorly and that it appears to mean that I think anyone who doesn't want a pass/fail class is an idiot when I meant to say that anyone who attends a class and then whines that they don't pass a test and don't get the same certificate as those that do is the idiot. I thought it would be clearer since I quoted the prior post but in re-reading it now I can see where it may not have been. If people prefer the "everyone gets a trophy for participating" methodology that most classes operate under that's between them and the instructor.
I couldn't care less about having the certificate for any kind of record purposes, or using as credentials for another class, or anything of the sort, but I think at least the idea of a standards test at the end of a class so that you can measure for yourself how well you absorbed what was taught over the last three days is certainly not a bad thing. Lots of instructors do it to one degree or another, but it would appear that Jeff is one of the few that ties the test to the paper you receive.
I'm interested enough in the situation that I'm going to email Jeff and ask him about it. I'm curious to hear his take on it, and how he arrived at doing it that way when he appears to be one of the few that operate that way.
Jay Cunningham
02-27-10, 14:24
So on the topic of credentialing you couldn't care less.
On the topic of someone who would whine if they earned an "attended" instead of "passed" you think they are idiots.
Gotcha.
NCPatrolAR
02-27-10, 19:45
Hmmm, Jeff gives out certs and/or letters? I never got either. Oh well. :cool:
As an FYI, CSAT has courses where you get a cert of "attendance" vs. a cert of "completion" if you don't pass the standards. Tom Givens at Rangemaster also won't give you a cert if you don't pass.
Personally, I think its a good motivator to keep students trying. After hours of being on a hot range collecting scrapes and bruises, it's good to have a stretch goal to keep you focused. The ego can be a good motivator and everyone want's to be part of the good group.
To me, these methods indicate an instructor who understands adult learning concepts and really thinks about what and how he is teaching.
Gringop
I thought of another standards motivator that Jeff used that I liked. He would arrange students on the line from left to right in order of their score. The goal was to get as far left on the line as possible. The positions were earned by test standards and changed at the beginning of the TD according to your score at the end of the previous TD. It would change after lunch as well if I remember correctly. I really enjoyed trying to get to that #1 slot. I thought it was both fun and motivating. Stay safe.
I thought of another standards motivator that Jeff used that I liked. He would arrange students on the line from left to right in order of their score. The goal was to get as far left on the line as possible. The positions were earned by test standards and changed at the beginning of the TD according to your score at the end of the previous TD. It would change after lunch as well if I remember correctly. I really enjoyed trying to get to that #1 slot. I thought it was both fun and motivating. Stay safe.
I love it! It lets you know just where on the short bus you are.:D Imagine the ride home with your training buddies... "at least I wasn't two seats from the emergency exit"... :D
That is a good idea, it allows the instructor to isolate those that need the most one on one and in the end it benefits the students due to the extra attention from the instructor that they receive.
As others have already mentioned Jeff Gonzales is an intense instructor with high standards.
At the combative Pistol I class I took your overall "pass" score was an average of your 1st day test, shooting cold prior to any instruction, and your second day score at the end of training.
So theoretically if you shot bad enough on the 1st day you could still "fail" the test even if you shot the second day clean... or vice versa. You can also shoot 99% but if one of your shots goes in to the white (off silhouette) its an automatic DQ.
Jeff also extends an open invitation for any student to re-take the Day 2 test, so you still have the opportunity to "earn" your certificate.
Because of all those variables I prefer to think of Jeff's test as a snapshot of where your skills are at the time you take the test rather than an overall assessment of the student's shooting ability.
Full Disclosure: I'm friends with several of Jeff's current and former AI's and I DQ'd the 2nd day test by shooting in to the white :(
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