View Full Version : Am I “thinking” right b4 I buy an $$$ AR?
Is my “thinking” correct before I buy a high dollar AR…?
I have finally sold my lower tier AR’s, saved my coins, and now I want to purchase two new AR’s. Two because “one is none and two is one”. My wife took the phrase to heart, so I’ve got to move quick! I want an AR for home defense, SHTF, attending a Carbine Class, just general shooting and plinking.
I have been shooting my whole-life but only messing with AR’s just over a year. I have bought 5 AR’s in the past year and as I learned what makes a good one, I’ve sold them off one at a time. Sold the last one Sunday.
I managed to shoot about 1000 rounds through my AR’s in the past year. So, only shooting a 1000 AR rounds, I’m far from an expert but I have studied (not just read) on the internet, manuals, CD’s and talked to countless people trying to triangulate my “thinkings” into some halfway intelligent non-kool-aid drinking thoughts.
I am certain I can use some enlightenment, so please feel free. I intermix the words I “think” and I “want” but they are just both my opinion, so, let me know if my “thinkings” are somewhat on the right track…be gentle…
For a civilian, I think an AR is really a 200-yard (or less) range weapon. I shouldn’t be in a situation where I’ll be shooting everything that moves out to 500-yards but I could be in a situation where I have select targets at 100-yards in my neighborhood…like say, a pack of rabid coyotes??
An AR should be light and easily handled. It should be extremely reliable and be made of the best components available. You should be able to shoot it with open sights off-hand at man sized targets at 50-75 yards and supported out to 150-200 yards. It should not bother you to scratch it.
I want a mid-length rifle because of the better sight radius, longer grip, less violent recoil, and less stressed parts. An AR should be Direct Impingement because that was how it was designed, not a jury rigged piston gun.
I want a Fixed Front Sight because it is less likely to be damaged. Any optics on my AR will be at least a 1X, possibly more in a variable scope but at least a 1X on the low end.
I want a 16” barrel with a standard profile (no HBAR) to keep it light. A 16” minimum because I do not want the Flash Hider welded on in case I ever want to change the fore-end, front sight, etc. Chrome-lined and MP tested parts where practical with a Vortex flash hider. No match or adjustable trigger.
For a handguard, I am not sure if I want a free-float quad rail handguard for accuracy, light attachment, versatile sling attachment points, etc. or just a basic plastic double-insulated handguard because it is lighter, easily removed to clean under the fore-end, and it is cheaper! Leaning towards a free-float quad rail fore-end.
It is difficult to pick a brand that I can confidently give $3000+. I’ve had enough Buyer’s Remorse with AR’s already, I intend to be very prejudiced on the brand I select next. I want a company that has a good track record of AR customer service. I think the best popular brands are: Bravo Company, Colt, Daniel Defense, Lewis Machine, and Noveske. My “thinkings” on each maker are: Bravo Company–never heard anything bad, just not sure, they seem new to making AR’s. Not sure about the CS; Colt–they don’t like civilians(I’m a civilian); LMT–heard (and read) they’re using MIM parts but their stuff is supposed to be good; Daniel Defense – never heard anything bad, they seem new to making AR’s, no history of CS; Noveske–never heard a derogatory word except price and they have a good CS track record. My preference at this point is Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT, and Bravo Company (no Colt).
So, right now, I’m leaning heavily towards Noveske N4 Light Recce FSR 16" but I could comfortably buy the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" with it plastic handguard and $500 less price tag.
Well, this is way harder than it should be but I’m trying. If you thnk this is bad, you ought to see me buy a car… : )
I appreciate any help, advice, recommendations, criticism, ridicule, etc…
Thanks,
Frank
I'd get BCM 16" midlength models, ammo, and a training class.
A white light w/mount, 2 pt. vtac/vcas sling, and an aimpoint are other essentials that should be on the shopping list.
I'd get the Noveske now Recce now, and then you get the free stripped lower. Then buy a BCM or DD upper (or even another Noveske upper and you'd have ANOTHER lower) to put on that lower. There's your 2.
Why is LaRue not on your list?:confused:
Can you share some of your buyers remorse w/ those of us who would like to learn from your decisions/mistakes.;)
I ask as I'm in a similar situation and appreciate the work you have already done for me.:D
Quiet-Matt
02-09-10, 19:54
What about BushMaster?...............................Just Kidding;)
+1 to what Mung said
I am in a very similar situation as yourself. I have narrowed it down to a midlength BCM or DD. I am waiting on DD to start shipping their midlengths! I think when it comes strictly to value DD wins out, followed closely by the BCM. Noveske sounds great but for the money they are asking I can buy quite a few accessories! Just my thoughts!
Chad
You sure you want to rule out Colt? I'm no cool-aid drinker, but some of the prices I've read about lately are tough to beat. I've seen $1099.00 several times and even a $1050.00 or two. Letting go of prejudice and bias, dollar for dollar, I'm not sure you can beat a Colt right now. Just thinking out loud though..
MarshallDodge
02-09-10, 20:31
I would recommend something with a midlength gas system.
DD rifle and a BCM lower to build on for rainy days...
Scott (the plebe)
Get the Noveske N4 basic and throw on a DD Omega 9 which runs <$300. Then you have a free floated quad rail that installs in less then 5 minutes, can be changed back to the original config if you want, and you still have your fixed FS and your still $200 cheaper than the N4 FSR.
I'd get BCM 16" midlength models, ammo, and a training class.
A white light w/mount, 2 pt. vtac/vcas sling, and an aimpoint are other essentials that should be on the shopping list.
Thanks Gewehr. The Noveske Recce is a mid-length 16". I've been picking ammo up for years, and I intend to take a class in the Fall. I just (yesterday) got a TNVC Q5 Cree Drop-In for my SureFire 6P and I am impressed. I called the Sheriff last night because of a couple of peddlers knocking on doors at 9:00PM and the deputy and I were comparing flashlights in my front yard. He took down all the info so he could get one. He was using a Streamlight Stinger, if I remember. The Streamlight was brighter by a little but it was 3 times bigger than the 6P w/ Q5.
After I get my rifle, I'll probably get either a Vltor or Vtac light mount.
Why is LaRue not on your list?:confused:
Can you share some of your buyers remorse w/ those of us who would like to learn from your decisions/mistakes.;)
I ask as I'm in a similar situation and appreciate the work you have already done for me.:D
Thanks, Colo.TJ.
Most of my Buyers Remorse was self inflicted because of ingnorance. I bought 5 AR's and only shot 2 of them. The more I read and studied, the more I learned about what really mattered in an AR and how some companies make guns that look, sound, and feel like AR's but they ain't.
1st was a DPMS w/ a .223 Rem chamber and no FH. Unaware I shouldn't shoot 5.56 in a 223 when Ibought it. Also, I found out real quick why FH are necessary equipment. It's like someone popping a firecracker in your face. Sold it after a month.
2nd was a Bushmaster & 3rd was a RRA. Sold them both after a few months without shooting them when I found out their quality was lower tier.
4th was an ArmaLite w/ a SS match barrel and match trigger. Shot it about 1000 rounds. But it was heavy, non-standard crabon fiber fore-end, and a fixed stock. So-so accuracy until 300+ shots and then suddenly-bam! it became very accurate, guess it has to break-in. It was not very flexible and heavy. Sold it after a year.
5th was Yankee Hill. I liked it the best but I sold it to my brother without shooting it. Of the 5 I bought, the YHM was the best even though it is not on the "Chart". My brother loves it.
5.5th was a SIG 556 Classic SWAT. The gun shot fine for the 20 or so shots I shot in it but I could not stand it. Parts are expensive, flat-top rail was out of spec, quad rail was not free-float, stock must have been made by Mattel, so heavy, etc. Not worth the money. Sold it after 6-months - very hard to sell!
That about explains my AR history.
It sounds like you've been doing your research and know what constitutes a quality AR. Any Noveske that you're interested in will no doubt be a superb rifle.
If you're concerned about Bravo Company's customer service -- don't be. I contacted Paul with a minor issue I had with my upper and he responded very promptly and covered the cost of shipping my upper back for repair. I was very thoroughly impressed, but I can't speak for the other companies.
If you really like the Noveske then you should get it, otherwise my vote would definitely be for BCM.
arizonaranchman
02-09-10, 22:52
Sounds like you've done your research and homework. Any of those you list have impeccable reputations. Let us know what you decide...
Get just one -any of the several top tiers mentioned on this forum - and shoot it a bunch - then get another. Find out what ammo it likes and put several years worth in inventory while we are in this "lull".
A fixed FSB is a very good idea from a practical standpoint, (and the way my recent buy/build Noveske mid-length is configured). FWIW, I've burned 750 rounds over the last month just trying different optics and ammo in the N4 - and I'm very low speed, high drag. :p
Shoot it, take a class, enter local competitive matches - whatever works, but you won't improve your proficiency much at only 1k rounds per year.
Get two (or more) good optics - one a red dot and one a variable or low fixed power and play with both, as well as the irons. The red dot (Aimpoint) is great for home defense/CQB and will work out to 300M on reasonable sized targets (for me, anyway). BTW,1X means no magnification - like an Aimpoint ML3, etc., or 1.0 x 4 power scope.
My $.02.
You sure you want to rule out Colt? I'm no cool-aid drinker, but some of the prices I've read about lately are tough to beat. I've seen $1099.00 several times and even a $1050.00 or two. Letting go of prejudice and bias, dollar for dollar, I'm not sure you can beat a Colt right now. Just thinking out loud though..
Hey LMT42.
Just guess it is my age. I find myself to be less tolerant on important issues. I don't hate Colt and I don't hate Ruger but both of them backstabbed gun owners years ago. Now that Colt's government contracts are finished, they realized there is money to be made from those stupid civilians, so they jump to give us what we want...too late! I guess since Bill Ruger died, times got a little hard, so they're trying to increase their market share by catering to the "high capacity" crowd he backstabbed years ago.
I feel the same way about Bass Pro Shops. I live near a Cabelas and a Bass Pro. Cabelas handles those nasty "black guns". Bass Pro sells hunting guns but they don't want to be associated with "black guns", so they don't handle them. Call them and they'll say they don't handle those "type" of guns or they only handle sport guns. Heck with Bass Pro.
I think we need to less tolerant when we are slighted but as a whole, we're not.
So, Colt can just keep their .154"/.170" FCG's and their LE/Military Only marked guns.
But maybe that's just me...
Get the Noveske N4 basic and throw on a DD Omega 9 which runs <$300. Then you have a free floated quad rail that installs in less then 5 minutes, can be changed back to the original config if you want, and you still have your fixed FS and your still $200 cheaper than the N4 FSR.
Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, 9mm4me, I've thought about doing just that but I haven't read of anyone that has really used and abused the Omega to know for sure. From what I've read the Noveske (SWS) rail is an extremely rigid handguard but it is a little heavy because of the proprietory barrel nut (but a wrench is available).
I tried to find some details of the Omega online but only saw pictures from a distance.
9mm4mee, have you tried and used the DD Omega? Is it a rigid solid fit or is it some kind of friction (clamp) fit?
So, Colt can just keep their .154"/.170" FCG's and their LE/Military Only marked guns.
But maybe that's just me...
You are not alone. It was deja vu all over again when I found out I can't run a standard carrier in my two oldies.
I would Go Daniel Defense (once they release) Mid Length, or BCM. Both come with CHF barrels and are very well priced. The BCM as a complete rifle is only available through G&R $1134.00 (as far as I have found) otherwise you would have to buy an upper, and lower seperately. Noveske is awsome, more expensive than the complete BCM middy through G&R though at $1480. Those would be my choices.
1. BCM
2. Noveske / Daniel Defense
Get just one -any of the several top tiers mentioned on this forum - and shoot it a bunch - then get another. Find out what ammo it likes and put several years worth in inventory while we are in this "lull".
A fixed FSB is a very good idea from a practical standpoint, (and the way my recent buy/build Noveske mid-length is configured). FWIW, I've burned 750 rounds over the last month just trying different optics and ammo in the N4 - and I'm very low speed, high drag. :p
Shoot it, take a class, enter local competitive matches - whatever works, but you won't improve your proficiency much at only 1k rounds per year.
Get two (or more) good optics - one a red dot and one a variable or low fixed power and play with both, as well as the irons. The red dot (Aimpoint) is great for home defense/CQB and will work out to 300M on reasonable sized targets (for me, anyway). BTW,1X means no magnification - like an Aimpoint ML3, etc., or 1.0 x 4 power scope.
My $.02.
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Thanks, Shootist~ I think we are in a “lull” too.
I shot most of the 1000 rounds piddling and learning. I have spent the last 6-months trying to sell the my ArmaLite and my SIG so I could get a top tier rifle. All the while accumulating ammo, mags, gear and such. I want to be adequate as I can be with my 54.99-year old eyes with open sights before I get an optic.
One of my New Year Resolutions is to shoot 2K rounds before summer in my new rifle and 1000 in my pistol. We’ll see…
Last month a good friend asked me what I thought the best sight was. I told him from what I understand that an Aimpoint T-1 with a Larue mount is tough to beat. He bought one and he loves it.
BUT my problem is that every red dot sight I look through looks like a “red comma sight”. Cotton-pickin’ dot looks like a comma to me. I even brought a RDS to the eye doctor and asked him to “correct” my vision until it was a dot…he couldn’t do it with just lenses (he did it with an aperture) but I can’t grab my Merit before I run out the back door shooting zombies now can I???
Well, my buddy is bringing his T1 down in two weeks and hopefully I’ll see if the RDS will work for me. But I’m not optimistic. So, I figure I’ll end up with some type of illuminated variable 1-4X scope.
Thanks again.
ColdDeadHands
02-10-10, 00:07
I'd get the Noveske now Recce now, and then you get the free stripped lower. Then buy a BCM or DD upper (or even another Noveske upper and you'd have ANOTHER lower) to put on that lower. There's your 2.
Ditto! The Noveske Light Reece should last a long time...CHF + M249 CL
I would Go Daniel Defense (once they release) Mid Length, or BCM. Both come with CHF barrels and are very well priced. The BCM as a complete rifle is only available through G&R $1134.00 (as far as I have found) otherwise you would have to buy an upper, and lower seperately. Noveske is awsome, more expensive than the complete BCM middy through G&R though at $1480. Those would be my choices.
1. BCM
2. Noveske / Daniel Defense
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jp0319, thanks for the reply.
I'd be very reluctant to buy anyone's newly designed rifle (especially a Toyota one, right now). I'm sure DD is doing a lot of homework but there are a lot of gun related companies folding right now. (Charles Daley and Command Arms off the top of my head.)
I have had a few replies testifying to the quality of BCM, so I think BCM is a little higher than what I originally thought. Thanks.
I compared features to features and even though the BCM is $346 less expensive than the Noveske, the Noveske comes with a Vltor stock and a Tango Down grip which would cost about $200 plus it has the Noveske barrel $$? A Supplier told me a while back that the "standard" mil-spec collapsible stocks cost is $12.
Thank y'all for your replies.
I have had a DD OMEGA rail on my primary work rifle for the last year and a half. It is very well built and very easy to put on. I work in a desert environment, but get detailed all over the country. My work is pretty rough on gear. The DD rail has been through several classes and daily work and I haven't had a single issue with it. I will look at the round count on it, but I believe it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-6K since I put it on. My work involves everything from tracking to LP/OPs to warrant service, so it has been banged around quite a bit. I've regularly checked the screws and they haven't needed to be tightened yet. My secondary work rifle and a personal rifle have LaRue rails. I also have a Troy MRF rail, but it isn't FF. Hope that helps. Stay safe.
SWATcop556
02-10-10, 01:06
First off, kudos to you for researching and learning. Based on the needs you listed and your experience levels here is my suggestion.
1.) Buy either the BCM midlength rifle from G&R or buy the lower and the upper and push the pins yourself. DD makes great rifles and both companies have excellent CS.
2.) Grab a set of Troy folding sights (or just the rear if you use a standard FSB). I use to only run a Standard FSB but with modern construction, the flipup front sights made by quality companies are much more reliable as a stand alone sight than they use to be.
3.) The Trijicon Accupoint is an excellent variable power optic that can serve as a CQB sight as well as give you some magnification when needed and helps with the red comma problem with the RDS. Put it in a Larue mount.
4.) For right now one gun should be plenty. I would invest the rest in several quality training classes. The knowledge and experience you gain will eclipse trying to rationalize owning two rifles. Stock up on a LPK or two and a few extra bolts and firing pins as well as cleaning and maintenance supplies. Get a quality bag of the rifle.
5.) Have at least 10 Pmags (I have 50+) on hand for training and range time. Stock several 1000 rds if you can. Get a good two point sling and that flashlight mount you mentioned.
6.) After your training start assessing what items you need to add for your applications (ie. FF rails, VG, BAD, etc). Not everyone needs all the newest gadgets. That will save you buyers remorse on buying accessories that are "just because."
Noveske makes excellent rifles that are scary accurate but for your needs the BCM will more than do the trick and that's more $$$ you save towards other items that are necessary. There's a lot more to owning, training, and maintaining a rifle.
I would rather have a guy in a class with me that has the one rifle and all of the necessary support gear to be effective than the guy with two top end rifles but only two mags, no sling or gear, and only shot a few hundred rounds since the rest of the money went towards having another AR.
Once you've got all of that down then save up and get another rifle that fills your needs. Trust me you can never have too many but you need to make the initial purchase and all that goes with it to feed it ammo, run it safely and effectively, and clean and maintain it at the end of the day. Just my friendly advice. :cool:
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jp0319, thanks for the reply.
I'd be very reluctant to buy anyone's newly designed rifle (especially a Toyota one, right now). I'm sure DD is doing a lot of homework but there are a lot of gun related companies folding right now. (Charles Daley and Command Arms off the top of my head.)
I have had a few replies testifying to the quality of BCM, so I think BCM is a little higher than what I originally thought. Thanks.
I compared features to features and even though the BCM is $346 less expensive than the Noveske, the Noveske comes with a Vltor stock and a Tango Down grip which would cost about $200 plus it has the Noveske barrel $$? A Supplier told me a while back that the "standard" mil-spec collapsible stocks cost is $12.
Thank y'all for your replies.
UCRT,
If you ask around (or search Daniel Defense) you'll get a better understanding of their quality. They have been making AR-s only a short time but are considered a top tier manufacturer because they did do their homework, They make their own CHF barrels just like Noveske, and BCM do. I would read up a bit before discounting them due to their age so to speak. As far a the Noveske goes you are correct about the Vltor stock and Tango down Grip, however if you have never used either you dont know if you like them so you may end up replacing them anyway thereby costing yourself more money. The Noveske Barrels are nice but even with the double chrome, and 249 steel, you are not likely to notice a perceptible difference between Noveske, BCM, or DD with your yearly round count. I am by no means attempting to discourage you from buying a Noveske they are awsome guns by everyones account, but for your intended use you may be better served with something less expensive which allows the flexibility to change or to spend the extra money on accessories and or Ammo. For that $346 difference you could get a sling, and white light, or put it toward ammo, or an optic.
As far as the optic goes some people have that problem with RDS sights, I have read that some find the Eotech easier to see clearly, and another option which is in a thread on the optics page is the Trijicon TA44 1.5x, someone said on there that they had trouble seeing the RDS dot but could use the TA44 just fine. A 1-4 variable my have some issues with the FSB on lower magnification so keep that in mind too.
I have had a DD OMEGA rail on my primary work rifle for the last year and a half. It is very well built and very easy to put on. I work in a desert environment, but get detailed all over the country. My work is pretty rough on gear. The DD rail has been through several classes and daily work and I haven't had a single issue with it. I will look at the round count on it, but I believe it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-6K since I put it on. My work involves everything from tracking to LP/OPs to warrant service, so it has been banged around quite a bit. I've regularly checked the screws and they haven't needed to be tightened yet. My secondary work rifle and a personal rifle have LaRue rails. I also have a Troy MRF rail, but it isn't FF. Hope that helps. Stay safe.
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Thanks, JEL458.
The Omega rail sounds like a good option. Being a DD, I'm sure it has to be pretty good and it seems to be a common solution. Would you by chance have some pics on how it mounts. All I could find out is that you leave the delta ring stuff paraphernalia in place. Thanks again.
arizonaranchman
02-10-10, 09:12
Hey LMT42.
Just guess it is my age. I find myself to be less tolerant on important issues. I don't hate Colt and I don't hate Ruger but both of them backstabbed gun owners years ago. Now that Colt's government contracts are finished, they realized there is money to be made from those stupid civilians, so they jump to give us what we want...too late! I guess since Bill Ruger died, times got a little hard, so they're trying to increase their market share by catering to the "high capacity" crowd he backstabbed years ago.
I feel the same way about Bass Pro Shops. I live near a Cabelas and a Bass Pro. Cabelas handles those nasty "black guns". Bass Pro sells hunting guns but they don't want to be associated with "black guns", so they don't handle them. Call them and they'll say they don't handle those "type" of guns or they only handle sport guns. Heck with Bass Pro.
I think we need to less tolerant when we are slighted but as a whole, we're not.
So, Colt can just keep their .154"/.170" FCG's and their LE/Military Only marked guns.
But maybe that's just me...
Some excellent points you have there UCRT...
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Thanks, Shootist~ I think we are in a “lull” too.
I shot most of the 1000 rounds piddling and learning. I have spent the last 6-months trying to sell the my ArmaLite and my SIG so I could get a top tier rifle. All the while accumulating ammo, mags, gear and such. I want to be adequate as I can be with my 54.99-year old eyes with open sights before I get an optic.
One of my New Year Resolutions is to shoot 2K rounds before summer in my new rifle and 1000 in my pistol. We’ll see…
Last month a good friend asked me what I thought the best sight was. I told him from what I understand that an Aimpoint T-1 with a Larue mount is tough to beat. He bought one and he loves it.
BUT my problem is that every red dot sight I look through looks like a “red comma sight”. Cotton-pickin’ dot looks like a comma to me. I even brought a RDS to the eye doctor and asked him to “correct” my vision until it was a dot…he couldn’t do it with just lenses (he did it with an aperture) but I can’t grab my Merit before I run out the back door shooting zombies now can I???
Well, my buddy is bringing his T1 down in two weeks and hopefully I’ll see if the RDS will work for me. But I’m not optimistic. So, I figure I’ll end up with some type of illuminated variable 1-4X scope.
Thanks again.
Sounds like you have astigmatism - same here, my ML3 also has a tail. That along with weak eye dominance makes a RDS less than perfect for me, but surprisingly, I shoot 100 Yd groups with the ML3 just as well as I do with a 4X Acog or 2.5x8 Leupold. I had all three optics on the N4 yesterday thinking there was something wrong with the ACOG (nada). I did prove the Aimpoint mount retained the sight-in, anyway.
I'm looking at the new 1x4 Vortex http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-riflescope-with-tmcq-moa-reticle/reticle as a possible when it comes out this spring. Both for close and longer ranges.
First off, kudos to you for researching and learning. Based on the needs you listed and your experience levels here is my suggestion.
1.) Buy either the BCM midlength rifle from G&R or buy the lower and the upper and push the pins yourself. DD makes great rifles and both companies have excellent CS.
2.) Grab a set of Troy folding sights (or just the rear if you use a standard FSB). I use to only run a Standard FSB but with modern construction, the flipup front sights made by quality companies are much more reliable as a stand alone sight than they use to be.
3.) The Trijicon Accupoint is an excellent variable power optic that can serve as a CQB sight as well as give you some magnification when needed and helps with the red comma problem with the RDS. Put it in a Larue mount.
4.) For right now one gun should be plenty. I would invest the rest in several quality training classes. The knowledge and experience you gain will eclipse trying to rationalize owning two rifles. Stock up on a LPK or two and a few extra bolts and firing pins as well as cleaning and maintenance supplies. Get a quality bag of the rifle.
5.) Have at least 10 Pmags (I have 50+) on hand for training and range time. Stock several 1000 rds if you can. Get a good two point sling and that flashlight mount you mentioned.
6.) After your training start assessing what items you need to add for your applications (ie. FF rails, VG, BAD, etc). Not everyone needs all the newest gadgets. That will save you buyers remorse on buying accessories that are "just because."
Noveske makes excellent rifles that are scary accurate but for your needs the BCM will more than do the trick and that's more $$$ you save towards other items that are necessary. There's a lot more to owning, training, and maintaining a rifle.
I would rather have a guy in a class with me that has the one rifle and all of the necessary support gear to be effective than the guy with two top end rifles but only two mags, no sling or gear, and only shot a few hundred rounds since the rest of the money went towards having another AR.
Once you've got all of that down then save up and get another rifle that fills your needs. Trust me you can never have too many but you need to make the initial purchase and all that goes with it to feed it ammo, run it safely and effectively, and clean and maintain it at the end of the day. Just my friendly advice. :cool:
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Whew! Lot’s of good info SWATcop1911. Thanks.
I would really like a folding front sight, especially with a low power optic but I’m just reluctant to give up the rigidity of the FSB being in the vulnerable location that it is in? I’ve never really looked at folding sights. Several people have mentioned Troy, so they must be gtg. Have you ever seen a front sight get whacked pretty good and still be on target?
I’m a ways from buying optics but after I get comfortable shooting with open sights I have a Burris fixed 1X I’d like to play with. I’d imagine I’ll buy a higher end variable like the Trijicon, Meopta, etc.
I have two LPK, but nothing great (DPMS and RGUNS). I haven’t got a BCG yet. I was going to find out and probably make a new thread asking about BCG’s but let me ask you, can you just put in a new carrier or bolt or both without worrying about fit? I’d think the barrel extension and bolt wear in together and if you put in a new bolt, things (like headspace) would change? Should you rotate between parts to keep them all “fitted” and functioning. That make sense?
The 20+ mags I have are all metal. The P-Mags have to be good but I’ve heard they didn’t drop-free in some guns, so I was waiting to try them in the rifle that I have in hand. I talked to one of the larger mag vendors about which AR mags are returned the least. He looked in his system, and said that the least returned mag is the NHMTG with P-Mag coming in second. Thought that was good to know that they both have low return rates.
On the training, what classes would you recommend and where are they? I see you’re from Texas, can you recommend any in the Houston to New Orleans area? I see the big ones like EAG and MagPul but they fill pretty fast, are expensive and are often 500+ miles away. I'd hate to take vacation, travel somewhere and end up with some tactical Barney Fife giving the class.
It would kill me to slow a class down. I will do everything practical to not be the “spoonbill” you’re describing in a class. I’m sure I’ll still look like I have two left-hands but I’ll have the basic shooting and gear stuff worked out.
Thanks again for your insight.
UCRT,
If you ask around (or search Daniel Defense) you'll get a better understanding of their quality. They have been making AR-s only a short time but are considered a top tier manufacturer because they did do their homework, They make their own CHF barrels just like Noveske, and BCM do. I would read up a bit before discounting them due to their age so to speak. As far a the Noveske goes you are correct about the Vltor stock and Tango down Grip, however if you have never used either you dont know if you like them so you may end up replacing them anyway thereby costing yourself more money. The Noveske Barrels are nice but even with the double chrome, and 249 steel, you are not likely to notice a perceptible difference between Noveske, BCM, or DD with your yearly round count. I am by no means attempting to discourage you from buying a Noveske they are awsome guns by everyones account, but for your intended use you may be better served with something less expensive which allows the flexibility to change or to spend the extra money on accessories and or Ammo. For that $346 difference you could get a sling, and white light, or put it toward ammo, or an optic.
As far as the optic goes some people have that problem with RDS sights, I have read that some find the Eotech easier to see clearly, and another option which is in a thread on the optics page is the Trijicon TA44 1.5x, someone said on there that they had trouble seeing the RDS dot but could use the TA44 just fine. A 1-4 variable my have some issues with the FSB on lower magnification so keep that in mind too.
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Thanks again, jp0319
If you called my Mom and asked her, she’d tell you I was always the one that got a broke toy for Christmas or out of 60 bikes in the school bike racks, mine would get stolen. So, I guess I’m just overly cautious but if anyone in the world could get a lemon Noveske, it would be me.
It wouldn’t bother me one iota to have a rifle from the manufacturers I listed but it looks like I’ll probably get a Noveske. Up to now, I have been looking at less expensive alternates but last week I cleaned out my junk and set up at a Gun Show for the first time in 10-years, and did pretty good. So, (right now) I have the funds, so I think I’ll splurge. When it gets down to the n-cuttin’, I don’t really “need” a battle rifle but if I’m going to get one, I want a good one and all of the ones listed are definitely good.
BUT jp0319, you bring up a good point about the stock and grip. So, this afternoon, I’ll leave early and go hit a few gun stores and pay close attention to the stocks. I always just thought they all had about the same dimensions but were stronger , had storage, QD points, etc. Never paid much attention to them. Thanks.
Some excellent points you have there UCRT...
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Thanks arizonaranchman.
You know what's sad, there had to be a lot of gun owners that voted for our current president. Maybe their eyes have been opened. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that read, "If you voted for Obama and you're not pissed...you ain't paying attention!" Thought that was pretty good.
Take it easy.
Sounds like you have astigmatism - same here, my ML3 also has a tail. That along with weak eye dominance makes a RDS less than perfect for me, but surprisingly, I shoot 100 Yd groups with the ML3 just as well as I do with a 4X Acog or 2.5x8 Leupold. I had all three optics on the N4 yesterday thinking there was something wrong with the ACOG (nada). I did prove the Aimpoint mount retained the sight-in, anyway.
I'm looking at the new 1x4 Vortex http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-riflescope-with-tmcq-moa-reticle/reticle as a possible when it comes out this spring. Both for close and longer ranges.
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Man, shootist~ a lifetime unlimited warranty sounds pretty hard to beat on the Vortex. Let me know how you like it.
Do you have a FSB on your N4 or a folding front sight?
Thanks
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Man, shootist~ a lifetime unlimited warranty sounds pretty hard to beat on the Vortex. Let me know how you like it.
Do you have a FSB on your N4 or a folding front sight?
Thanks
It's the fixed FSB. I bought the N4 Light Reese Basic (upper only) and jumped in on the free blemished N4 stripped lower. I also added the Omega 9" rail rather than dismount the barrel and FSB.
The LPK is from Grant, except I went with a DD safety selector - the DD works without modification with the Geissele DMR trigger I went with.
I love the Noveske - 750 rounds with zero malfunctions of any kind so for - but it has a definite preference for heavy bullets (75s shoots very well). [Accuracy with 55gr M193 has been so-so, but a 55 gr Hornady reload I'm working up is showing good promise.]
My next project will probably be an 18" stainless in 1x8 twist to replace the 20" BM I have on my old 3-Gun rifle, (Sabre, BCM and White Oak are possibles).
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/shootist87122/DSC01993.jpg
ucrt - You are about to enjoy one of the great feelings in life. I just this weekend let go of my last "good as" rifle, a Rock river, and came home with a Daniel Defense M4. It is a quantum leap forward and honestly makes your prior purchases somewhat worth while. When someone tells you that brand X is "as good as" you will understand the differences first hand. Life is a learning experience.
Any of the rifles suggested are good choices. You are moving up at a great time as there are many quality options out there to choose from. How much fun is to have money in hand and permission to purchase from the boss? Enjoy the search for the perfect set up and enjoy shooting that new boom stick!
mkmckinley
02-10-10, 12:35
Well after burning through 5 AR's and a SIG it sounds like you have it pretty much narrowed down! I think your reasoning is sound. If I were in your shoes I would decide if I wanted a 14.5" carbine or 16" middy and get the corresponding Noveske N4 Light Basic. Then I would add an Omega rail and, if I chose the 14.5, get the Vortex permanently attached to bring it up to 16.1 before I got it transferred. Then I would shoot the crap out of it while I thought about what to build with the free lower it came with.
Why? Your personality. You seem to be one of those guys that will always want the best (I'm one too) and if you get a DD or BCM, even though it's great rifle, you'll still peruse the Noveske site and drool. The N4's aren't that much more than a BCM/DD and you get a free lower, a cool logo, a nice stock/pistol grip, and that sweet M249 chromed barrel. When you add that to the cost of optics, tons of ammo and maybe a class the extra $200 you spent on the Noveske will be forgotten.
I might be projecting my own thought process onto you in which case just ignore it, but I went through the same thing and I'm really glad I bought the Noveske. It may not shoot any better than a BCM (at least in my hands) but it gives me that warm fuzzy while I think about building an SPR.
++++++++++++++++++
Thanks again, jp0319
If you called my Mom and asked her, she’d tell you I was always the one that got a broke toy for Christmas or out of 60 bikes in the school bike racks, mine would get stolen. So, I guess I’m just overly cautious but if anyone in the world could get a lemon Noveske, it would be me.
It wouldn’t bother me one iota to have a rifle from the manufacturers I listed but it looks like I’ll probably get a Noveske. Up to now, I have been looking at less expensive alternates but last week I cleaned out my junk and set up at a Gun Show for the first time in 10-years, and did pretty good. So, (right now) I have the funds, so I think I’ll splurge. When it gets down to the n-cuttin’, I don’t really “need” a battle rifle but if I’m going to get one, I want a good one and all of the ones listed are definitely good.
BUT jp0319, you bring up a good point about the stock and grip. So, this afternoon, I’ll leave early and go hit a few gun stores and pay close attention to the stocks. I always just thought they all had about the same dimensions but were stronger , had storage, QD points, etc. Never paid much attention to them. Thanks.
======================================================
UCRT,
Yeah, I was just trying to give you other options. Dont get me wrong I really want a noveske myself but then I already have two other ARs. The Butstock and grip thing, I have been through trial and error, I know that I absolutely hate the issue collapsible stock and grip, so through trial and error I have found that the Magpul MAID works best for me, and I prefer magpul stocks CTR, ACS. Bottom line you cant go wrong with Noveske, you might as well spoil yourself while you have the $$.
So, right now, I’m leaning heavily towards Noveske N4 Light Recce FSR 16" but I could comfortably buy the N4 Light Recce Basic 16" with it plastic handguard and $500 less price tag.
What exactly is the difference to increase the price by $500 over the basic?
ColdDeadHands
02-12-10, 10:31
Vltor MUR Upper & Rail
Vltor MUR Upper & Rail
What's the difference between that and the Vltor 9" VIS monolithic upper and why would either be desirable over the "regular" upper?
ColdDeadHands
02-12-10, 10:55
the difference between the VIS & the MUR is the VIS is a one piece design. If you would ever want to change out the rail (i.e. longer) then you should go with the MUR. Or go with the Basic and install a rail later.
I'm confused. When I check out the MUR on the Vltor site the bolt assist and deflector look very much like the VIS style. But the Noveske pics of the N4 Light Recce FSR 16" show a "normal" style upper installed.
Here's a pic from the Noveske site.
Link; http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/bigpic.cgi?i=r-lrfsr-556_2d.jpg
Link to Vltor site of the MUR; http://www.vltor.com/mur-images.htm#Image 1
ColdDeadHands
02-12-10, 11:02
FSR Configuration:
--Forged Vltor MUR upper receiver featuring an anti-rotation interface with the handguard
--9" free floated handguard w/ 1913 rails
--F marked front sight base
--Flip-up rear sight
ColdDeadHands
02-12-10, 11:05
look in the upper section for the Light Reece FSR, they have the pic with the MUR.
“one is none and two is one”. …
im a slight newb ..what does this mean?
GermanSynergy
02-12-10, 11:58
Based on your mission statement, I'd suggest a DD, BCM or Noveske N-4 Recce. Spend some money on training (this is often overlooked).
Training will help you get comfortable employing & manipulating the carbine, as well as showing you it's limitations as well as your own.
mkmckinley
02-12-10, 12:29
im a slight newb ..what does this mean?
in case one breaks
im a slight newb ..what does this mean?
sdm74,
"One is none and two is one" refers to if you only having "one" weapon, you are only a broken spring, extractor, missing pin, etc. away from having "none". With two weapons, you can salvage parts to keep one running for a while.
These is a lot of truth to the phrase but it really shines at convincing your wife that you need two home defense guns...of each type...AR, shotgun, pistol, etc. :D
Hey guys, thanks for all of the replies. At work, I've been busier than a cat covering up poo-poo, so I haven't been able to reply.
After much deliberating and I mean MUCH, I am going to get a Noveske Light Recce Basic. This is the one with a standard plastic handguard, fixed front sight and a pinned FH. Man this was excruciating.
What’s funny, because of the rifles I sold last week, I’ve got the funds right now to get any of the N4’s. So, I made a spreadsheet to help me figure this out. I made a list of characteristics that are important to me (such as weight, compatibility, ease of maintenance, accuracy, cost, etc), then gave each characteristic different % of importance (to me). Then, I gave each gun’s characteristic a score. The spreadsheet tallied the scores and it gave me a grade for each gun. I scored the Basic, Light Recce FSR (railed w/ fixed front sight), and the Light Recce Low Profile (rail w/ folding front sight). Here’s what my scores were Basic-84, Recce FSR-83, and Recce Low Profile-84. Man…that was a big help.
Well…here’s why I’m going to go with the Basic. Like several people recommended here, if need be, I can add a floating handguard (DD Omega) later without major modifications to the gun. The Basic weighs 9+ oz lighter than the railed models and weight is important (to me). The Basic is easier to keep clean under the handguards (and to me that is a consideration). The Basic is $500 cheaper and that means it will put me a 1/3 the way towards buying another exact same gun – “one is none and two is one.”
Yeah, the Basic will probably be slightly less accurate (plus/minus ½”??), adding a VFG will require a handguard change (will probably use a Magpul MOE in a couple of months), and I reckon the standard upper with the Basic is “less strong” than the Vltor MUR upper on the railed models (but since the standard is mil-spec, I’m sure it is plenty strong enough - don’t y’all think so?).
I don’t know if this thread helped anybody but me, but it did give me some different perspectives and did change my “thinking”. Thanks to everyone who contributed.
I’ll order my rifle on Monday, so if anyone has any “last minute” advice…please put it down here. Thanks.
ColdDeadHands
02-12-10, 14:22
My advice...order today as Sami @ Noveske told me that the Basic Reece is selling like crazy and they are running out. I ordered my Light Reece Upper first thing this morning.
Also, don't overlook the Upgrades section. You can get a emod for $25 extra and can substitute the vortex FH for an AAC 51T free of charge.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=88&page=1&search=&since=&status=
P.S. the FH is not pinned on the Light Reece - which is a good thing.
All rational aside is that the one you really want? If it is, great get it. If not get the one you really want as you will always wish you had gotten the other one when you had the chance.
ETA: Once you add the DD rail it's the same weight and you've spent almost the same as the N4 Light Recce FSR 16 and that is completey integrated into the upper as you already know. I can see the other side of that coin in that you can always go back to the plastic covers or use another makers rail that may appeal to you more than the factory rails.
Thanks to this thread I'm 90% I'm gonna order a Noveske in the next week. I was considering building a LaRue but like the idea of getting the entire rifle w/ warranty on the whole gun rather than parts. Then using the refurbed lower to build an AR. I might just call them up today.:D
All rational aside is that the one you really want? If it is, great get it. If not get the one you really want as you will always wish you had gotten the other one when you had the chance.
ETA: Once you add the DD rail it's the same weight and you've spent almost the same as the N4 Light Recce FSR 16 and that is completey integrated into the upper as you already know. I can see the other side of that coin in that you can always go back to the plastic covers or use another makers rail that may appeal to you more than the factory rails.
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Colo.TJ, you’re a “turd”. :D
I scrounged around this morning and found some more funding, so I was planning to order two Noveske Basics and satisfy the “One is none and two is one” credo. I didn’t say anything because I thought it would be braggadocios.
I talked to Joel at Noveske for a good hour today. He is a first-class guy that reps Noveske extremely well. He answered all of my questions, comforted my doubts, and eased my pre-purchase buyer’s remorse. He enlightened me on everything from Parkerizing to triggers to handguards and from spare parts to accuracy (of which he is very knowledgeable). I have talked to Joel a few times in the past but this time, I got a deeper understanding of Noveske’s mindset related to reliability, accuracy, and customer satisfaction. When I hung up with Joel, I fully intended to call Joel on Monday morning and order two Noveske Basics.
COLO.TJ, I was getting ready to go home and I checked to see if someone had written a reply to this thread, when I read your, "All rational aside is that the one you really want?" statement, it set me off. For the 20-minute drive home, it ate at me, I started thinking about what I really want.
I have owned dozens of deer rifles and tons of .22 rifles and if they did not shoot well, I sold them. “I want” my guns to be accurate or they are gone. I have a lot of US-made 55gr stuff but the past year I started accumulating hundreds of rounds of match ammo because “I want” an accurate rifle. When I see 200+ rounds of heavy grain ammo with the same Lot #, I put it on layaway because one day “I want” to shoot it in an accurate rifle. Two weeks ago, I put 280 rounds of 77gr match ammo on lay-away and bought one box and brought it home because “I want” to shoot them in the accurate rifle I was going to buy in the next month. It just excites me to have a rifle shoot little clover-leafs.
I guess y'all can tell I over think things… (just a little, you say.) Well, I went home, got online, brought up the Noveske website. I looked at all the different variations, rifles with the free-float handguards, plastic handguards, CL barrels, fixed sights, stainless barrels, folding front sights and BAM!! I had enough! I was tired of “thinking”, I drove a stake in the ground and went with “what I want”. I picked up the phone, called Noveske and ordered the N4 Recon 5.56 mm Rifle (folding front sight, SS barrel, quad rail), and then I added a Geisselle SSA Trigger, E-MOD Buttstock, and a VTAC Padded Sling.
I feel like a traitor to all of y'all with my "thinking" on the Basic rifle but on the inside, I am dancing doing back flips.
Well, if anyone is interested now, here is my "modified thinking".
I can sell a pistol, a scope or two, a shotgun, and a handful of knives, then save a few hundred bucks to come up with $1500 to buy a Noveske Basic (and I will). But I would be hard pressed to come up with $2500 again to spend on a light but extremely accurate AR. So, I jumped…
I have 1000 rounds of 68gr match ammo that I can hear quivering in my closet right now waiting for my Recon to get here.
So, Colo.TJ, what “I really want” is an accurate rifle…dadgummit!
Thanks to this thread I'm 90% I'm gonna order a Noveske in the next week. I was considering building a LaRue but like the idea of getting the entire rifle w/ warranty on the whole gun rather than parts. Then using the refurbed lower to build an AR. I might just call them up today.:D
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Colo.TJ
If you have any hesitations, questions, or concerns call Noveske and ask to talk to Joel. He'll tell you the truth and give you a lot of options.
He knows the Noveske manufacturing process from front to back and can explain everything from headspacing to warranty. Their number is 541-479-6117.
I know I have not given the Noveske Recon my normally anal full-blown over-thinking dissimulation but after talking with Joel, I know that it will be just perfect but in the slim chance that it isn’t, I’ve no doubt that they will bend over to make it right. I’m excited.
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Colo.TJ
If you have any hesitations, questions, or concerns call Noveske and ask to talk to Joel. He'll tell you the truth and give you a lot of options.
He knows the Noveske manufacturing process from front to back and can explain everything from headspacing to warranty. Their number is 541-479-6117.
I know I have not given the Noveske Recon my normally anal full-blown over-thinking dissimulation but after talking with Joel, I know that it will be just perfect but in the slim chance that it isn’t, I’ve no doubt that they will bend over to make it right. I’m excited.
May I tell him who referred me to see how much he's gonna knock off for upselling you?;)
Glad to hear you are excited about your purchase. You can build that "basic" w/ the blemished lower they're gonna send you. Are they still available? Honestly it's one of the factors I'm going to move on this next week. I did called and briefly talked w/ a nice girl about a recommendation for the transfer. Unfortunately the of the two dealers I contacted about a transfer one did not return my phone call and the other advised I wait as he was going to order some Noveske's soon and he would get his shipment before I would get mine as there are no rifles ready from them at this time. I think he's full of it. I'm looking for a non shop FFL transfer and ordering monday after I call and talk with Joel.
Thanks for starting this thread as it has helped me make an informed decision.
Why did you move away from the fixed front site to the flip down site? Which flash hider did you go with and why? And is it pinned or threaded?
ColdDeadHands
02-12-10, 23:10
ucrt, you 'll love the Recon! I have one of the earlier models.
May I tell him who referred me to see how much he's gonna knock off for upselling you?;)
Glad to hear you are excited about your purchase. You can build that "basic" w/ the blemished lower they're gonna send you. Are they still available? Honestly it's one of the factors I'm going to move on this next week. I did called and briefly talked w/ a nice girl about a recommendation for the transfer. Unfortunately the of the two dealers I contacted about a transfer one did not return my phone call and the other advised I wait as he was going to order some Noveske's soon and he would get his shipment before I would get mine as there are no rifles ready from them at this time. I think he's full of it. I'm looking for a non shop FFL transfer and ordering monday after I call and talk with Joel.
Thanks for starting this thread as it has helped me make an informed decision.
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Joel at Noveske and I didn't talked about the Recon, he gave me some facts like the CL barrel with the plastic handguard is the least accurate, then the accuracy with the other models get better as you get a floating handguard and then, finally SS barrel. Joel didn't convince me to get anthing (other than sell me completely on a Noveske, which didn't take a lot of convincing).
Thanks,
mkmckinley
02-13-10, 01:18
Dude you are gonna love that Geisselle trigger.
Why did you move away from the fixed front site to the flip down site? Which flash hider did you go with and why? And is it pinned or threaded?
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Colo.TJ,
I just left the Recon with the standard Smith Vortex. From what I've read and seen it works about a good as any. Any other recommendations? I'd never put a suppressor on the gun, so I don't need a FH with threads.
On the Recce and the Recon, the FH is just screwed on.
But if anyone knows about a FH that affected accuracy positively (or negatively) than the others, please let me know.
Good choice, can't go wrong with a Noveske. Beside KAC SR-15, the best DI AR-15 you can get.
For your purpose I'd go with a red dot sight and a separate magnifier mounted on a Larue Pivot. It's pricey but the best overall setup if you have the cash.
Cheers
Z
I have owned Colt, Bushmaster, DD, etc over the years and would have to rank in order:
1) Daniel Defense M4
2) Colt AR15
3) Noveske
4) Bushmaster
Currently own DDM4 custom build from the base M4 and Bushmaster.
ColdDeadHands
02-13-10, 20:26
I have owned Colt, Bushmaster, DD, etc over the years and would have to rank in order:
1) Daniel Defense M4
2) Colt AR15
3) Noveske
4) Bushmaster
Currently own DDM4 custom build from the base M4 and Bushmaster.
According to many posts here your order doesn't make much sense. But opinions vary of course.
Hey LMT42.
Just guess it is my age. I find myself to be less tolerant on important issues. I don't hate Colt and I don't hate Ruger but both of them backstabbed gun owners years ago. Now that Colt's government contracts are finished, they realized there is money to be made from those stupid civilians, so they jump to give us what we want...too late! I guess since Bill Ruger died, times got a little hard, so they're trying to increase their market share by catering to the "high capacity" crowd he backstabbed years ago.
I feel the same way about Bass Pro Shops. I live near a Cabelas and a Bass Pro. Cabelas handles those nasty "black guns". Bass Pro sells hunting guns but they don't want to be associated with "black guns", so they don't handle them. Call them and they'll say they don't handle those "type" of guns or they only handle sport guns. Heck with Bass Pro.
I think we need to less tolerant when we are slighted but as a whole, we're not.
So, Colt can just keep their .154"/.170" FCG's and their LE/Military Only marked guns.
But maybe that's just me...
It's not just you. Colt pissed me off too. They make great rifles. I'm a cop but don't want an LEO marked gun.
All of your choices would be great guns. I love my BCM Middy. There is an LMT lower in the safe waiting for me to decide on an upper. I'm leaning towards a 6.8 LMT piston upper. I'm waiting on mt tax stamp and will have my LMT SBR-10 to play with!
LMT and BCM were my choices!
According to many posts here your order doesn't make much sense. But opinions vary of course.
It makes perfect sense to actual owners of these rifles for years with years of experience from shooting competition to rec shooting. Colt and Noveske arent always the best just because a bunch of fans jump on there bandwagon.
Have you seen each of the guns I mentioned broken down piece by piece, laying right next to each other for comparison? Have you shot 5000+ rounds with each rifle?
And I am not jumping on you at all. Just wanting to know what else you base your decision on. You are right, we all have an opinion and everyones is different.
Answer this:
Are the New Orleans Saints the best in football this year? Do you really believe that?
No they are not, they just won when they had too and at the right time. Sad but true..
It makes perfect sense to actual owners of these rifles for years with years of experience from shooting competition to rec shooting. Colt and Noveske arent always the best just because a bunch of fans jump on there bandwagon.
Have you seen each of the guns I mentioned broken down piece by piece, laying right next to each other for comparison? Have you shot 5000+ rounds with each rifle?
And I am not jumping on you at all. Just wanting to know what else you base your decision on. You are right, we all have an opinion and everyones is different.
Answer this:
Are the New Orleans Saints the best in football this year? Do you really believe that?
No they are not, they just won when they had too and at the right time. Sad but true..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Keep talking Endless...
You're really going to upset a lot of people next year when the NFL cancels the whole season and just calls you to see who the best team is? Please don't ruin it for us...
:p
OK, back on topic...
Zach, I have an astigmatism, so a red dot is really a red comma to me and would probably hinder great accuracy. I looked through a couple of scopes today at a local shop: an IOR Valdada 1.1-4X and a Nightforce 1-4X. Both had illuminated reticles and were crystal clear BUT $900 and $1300 PLUS a mount is a lot scatch.
When a buddy bought a Noveske a year ago I thought he was nuts and here I go and bought one that was two clicks more expensive than his. Guess I need to keep looking and getting used to seeing 4 digit prices on scopes and then one day in a year or so, they won't seem so expensive??
Until then, I've got a Vari-X III 2.5-8X and a Burris 1X ShortMag that I may play with until I can scrape up some money to get a "4-digit" tactical scope but first I want to wear my open sights out shooting them. I think mastering open sights is where it is really at, especially out to 50-75 yards minimum.
ColdDeadHands
02-14-10, 00:24
Yes, I do have my share of experience with Bushmaster, Colt and Noveske. The Noveske is on the top of my list, no question. I have only fondled DD rifles and they seem to be decent but unproven...they are the new kid on the block.
from your 4 my list goes like this;
Noveske
Colt
DD
BM
of course I would never buy another bushmaster & I'll propably never buy a DD. I would love to give BCM a try one of these days tho. I list colt second because I've never been a sucker for colt.
My personal list goes like this:
Noveske
LMT
KAC
BCM
YMMV...
It makes perfect sense to actual owners of these rifles for years with years of experience from shooting competition to rec shooting. Colt and Noveske arent always the best just because a bunch of fans jump on there bandwagon.
Have you seen each of the guns I mentioned broken down piece by piece, laying right next to each other for comparison? Have you shot 5000+ rounds with each rifle?
Well... thanks ucrt. You finally gave me a reason to quit lurking and actually sign up for an account. Guess this thread is as good as any to make my first post on... lol.
You and I seem to think along the very same lines and I went through a similar exhausting ordeal trying to obtain what I thought was the "best" rifle for me. If I can be so bold as to explain (without stealing your thunder)...
A little over a year ago, I wanted an M1A. I researched them extensively for several months. Right at about the time I was getting ready to purchase one, a co-worker suggested that I look at AR-15's. At first, I was skeptical, but after researching them more and more, I realized that the AR-15 platform suited me, as it allowed me to upgrade modularly and build "my" rifle to "my" needs without a lot of overhead cost. I was sold on the AR platform.
Shortly after that, Nobama got elected and with him, the AR craze started. I'll be honest, I bought into it to, but I wasn't planning on buying an AR as I didn't have the funds at the time. Well, as it would turn out, I went to a local gun shop and got to know one of the guys pretty well. I visited frequently, checking on their new stock every week or so.
One day, I walked into the store and, literally the second I walked through, the salesperson said "I have the gun for you." It was a Sabre Defence M5 Tactical (14.5") with a price tag of $1,800 + taxes (I actually got it well below MSRP, amazingly). I went on and bought it on an impulse decision (put it on a credit card) and took it home.
The next three months were miserable for me, as I'm a perfectionist and I kept trying to make the gun work for "me." I wanted it to reach out further than the 14.5" barrel could, I didn't like how heavy the front rails were (Samson rails are freaking gorilla-heavy), the barrel wasn't stainless (something I originally wanted), the flip-up sights were steel and parkerized, yadda yadda. I really didn't know what to do, as admitting to myself that I had blown two grand on something I didn't want made me feel even worse.
I kept browsing the internet, reading forums, and initially, I tried to convince the few who asked about my setup that it was indeed the best I could have chosen... but it wasn't. By chance, I ran across Noveske's website and I saw the 16.1" Recon rifle - it was EXACTLY what I originally wanted. I finally got the courage to admit I made a poor decision and got the ball moving.
I listed the Sabre Defence on Gunbroker and put my cellphone number in the details section. Amazingly, it sold within 3 hours (no joke). I got a text-message at 12:00 AM asking to buy the rifle. I sold it and purchased the Noveske. I wish that was the end of my story, but it continues...
The Noveske was a perfect fit for me. Dead-accurate and perfectly finished. I kept getting "ooohs" and "aaahs" from it at the firing range here. In short, it was exactly what I should have purchased the first time around. The only thing that I wanted to change was the stock, but being a perfectionist, I didn't want to modify the gun as it would lose value (at least in my eyes) being modified, as it would no longer be a "100%" from-the-factory Noveske.
Well... knowing that it was easier just to get what I wanted than to sit around and try to cover it up, I decided to build another Noveske, this time purchasing an upper direct from them and building the lower out myself, as any changes wouldn't affect the resale value (since I'd be buying everything at OEM for the most part).
I purchased another Recon upper and a stripped E-series lower. Noveske also sent me a stripped "seconds" lower that I sold to offset the costs. I build the lower myself with a Geisselle SSA two-stage trigger, Magpul UBR, Magpul enhanced trigger guard, Magpul MOE grip, and a Daniel Defense lower parts kit. The finished product was a night and day difference from my other Recon. The UBR balanced out the heavy stainless barrel perfectly and the Geisselle trigger breaks like a crisp carrot (you'll love yours!). I then sold the old Recon. The best thing of all was that I only ended up spending $400 overall for a completely new rifle - the cost was less than it would have cost me to upgrade my old one.
I also put a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x24 ZeroStop MRAD on top, mounted in a custom-built BOBRO mount (that Andrew Bobro was kind enough to put together for me). My final cost for my rifle, mount, and optics came out to $3,860, but it was well worth it for me. Most importantly, I learned to simply bite the bullet when it comes to cost and not to sell yourself short; you'll end up unhappy and/or out the additional money you were going to spend the first time, in addition to the cost of the "junk" you didn't need.
I guess the reason for my post is because I appreciate the thought that went into you deciding what was perfect for you and thought you might feel the same similarly (minus the numerous "mistakes" I made along the way). Either way, you'll love your Noveske! Be sure to post pics!
Regards...
Skyyr, Thanks for your comments.
I can remember when the frenzy went into overdrive in Nov. '08, I went to Cabelas and looked at each of the 12-15 AR's they had in stock trying to understand what I wanted. I finally just put a tricked out Bushmaster on lay-away for $1200, figuring that would give me 3-months to learn about AR's and if I didn't make a good choice, I could cancel it and be no worse for wear. I went back about 6-weeks later, when Cabelas had no AR's on the rack and asked one of the guys if I could see my Bushmaster because I didn't remember what features it had. When he got it from the back, some guy told me he'd give me $1500 for my Bushmaster.
An old guy I used to go to Gun Shows with, said there was a name for the place where people made offers like that, he said it was, "A place where two fools met" - The guy for offering $1500 was one fool and I was the other for not taking the $1500. Oh well...
Well, like I said earlier, I went through 5 AR's and when it was all said and done, I was out about $200 from what I paid for the 5 versus what I sold them for. Thought that was a cheap tuition in the "school of AR's".
Well, I ordered the Recon and I've been having second thought since. Is it going to be too heavy, is the SS barrel going to be able to take a lot of shooting, is it going to be too "delicate", and so on... But I'm going to stick it out.
I've got the best wife in the world. Yesterday, I turned 55 and she gave me a subscription to SWAT Magazine and some seed money for a start on my Noveske Recce Basic. She was actually the one that "pushed" me to get that first AR because she had been reading about the frenzy in other states.
If I close my eyes, I can imagine with my Recon on one side and my Recce Basic on the other side...life will be good...for a hour or two anyway.
It's funny you mentioned the DD LPK. I ordered one this morning, decided to get it while they had them in stock. I've got a bunch of DPMS Parts kits and will start selling them off as I get higher quality replacements.
Skyyr, you thought the Recon was too heavy? The only Noveske I've shot is a friends' Recce FSB that I shot on the bench last year, and it shot really well. I figured the Recon would be close to the same weight as the Recce. I think the only difference is the SS barrel and the folding front sight but I did upgrade the Recon I ordered from the standard Vltor Mod Stcok to the E-Mod Stock, which weighs 4 oz. more. I've been doing most of my shooting on an ArmaLite Carbine that weighed 8-1/2lbs. I shot it pretty good but I think a howitzer is light compared to that thing.
Thanks for your comments.
Well, like I said earlier, I went through 5 AR's and when it was all said and done, I was out about $200 from what I paid for the 5 versus what I sold them for. Thought that was a cheap tuition in the "school of AR's".
...
Well, I ordered the Recon and I've been having second thought since. Is it going to be too heavy, is the SS barrel going to be able to take a lot of shooting, is it going to be too "delicate", and so on... But I'm going to stick it out.
...
Skyyr, you thought the Recon was too heavy? The only Noveske I've shot is a friends' Recce FSB that I shot on the bench last year, and it shot really well. I figured the Recon would be close to the same weight as the Recce. I think the only difference is the SS barrel and the folding front sight but I did upgrade the Recon I ordered from the standard Vltor Mod Stcok to the E-Mod Stock, which weighs 4 oz. more. I've been doing most of my shooting on an ArmaLite Carbine that weighed 8-1/2lbs. I shot it pretty good but I think a howitzer is light compared to that thing.
I "lost" about $300 learning the ins and outs of my choices, but it was well worth it for me as well. Knowing what you don't want is sometimes more useful than knowing what you want.
The Noveske barrel is perfect. The contour is what I like the most as it's smooth and continuous, unlike most Recce-type barrels which use extensions or odd profilings to reduce weight. The only thing I'd change about it is the finish, as I'd like it in a black KG Kote or ION-bond as a protective measure. However, a good cleaning and oiling will keep it looking like new and you'll save the $100-200 having the barrel finish redone.
As far as the AR being heavy, without optics, it's perfectly balanced. However, with a variable power scope, it weighs in at exactly 10 pounds and the center of gravity is slightly (yet noticeably) forward, making it front-heavy, at least with the VLTOR Mod Stock and a variable power scope in a QD mount. The UBR offset the weight to the rear, enough to make it balanced. The look and lines of the UBR also finish off the appearance of a long-range precision AR in my opinion (which is how I have my Recon set up).
All I need now is a BOBRO bipod and a sling...
I recommend piston powered guns, this obviates the whole mid-length discussion. Yes mid-length DI guns are more reliable than Carbines, but IMHO opinion Piston guns are more reliable than DI, and cleaner. PWS makes fantastic rifles. The LMT MRP Piston is great. Then there is the myriad of all the other manufacturers who make Piston Guns, it seems like everyone has one now. I am planning on piston converting my new Colt 6940, I hate DI. Adams Arms is a great kit, and I have heard good things about Osprey Systems. Ares is garbage. The CMMG is questionable, and LWRC is overpriced not to mention their tech support sux and it takes 18 weeks to get an LWRC.
As far as DI, I would go Larue or Noveske. OR build your own. I love building guns, especially black guns.
Good luck....
mkmckinley
02-15-10, 04:00
I've been doing most of my shooting on an ArmaLite Carbine that weighed 8-1/2lbs. I shot it pretty good but I think a howitzer is light compared to that thing.
I would kill for an 8 1/2 pound rifle right now. I weighted my issued M4 with all the bolt on SOPMOD crap and it's 10 1/4 lbs right now. My Mk17 with the medium barrel and a Spectre DR is 13.5!
Well, here I am – a waffling reed-in-the-wind...
As some of you know, I ordered a Noveske Recon late Friday, 3-days ago. Things went well Saturday but Sunday, I read a few things about the Recon being a “little” heavy. Then, yesterday, Skyyr commented that his Recon with scope weighed 10-lbs. When I read that, it was like someone knee’d me.
Something had gone wrong in my “thinking”. Here’s how pitiful I am, in Post #49 I stated that I was going to buy a Noveske Basic but less than 8-hours later, in Post #53, I got a "wild-hair" and ordered a Noveske Recon. Guess I should change my Log-In name to Eggo.
So, I decided to regroup and reread this Thread again. When I read the first Post, it started coming back to me…
“An AR should be light and easily handled. It should be extremely reliable and be made of the best components available. You should be able to shoot it with open sights off-hand at man sized targets at 50-75 yards and supported out to 150-200 yards. It should not bother you to scratch it.
I want a mid-length rifle because of the better sight radius, longer grip, less violent recoil, and less stressed parts. An AR should be Direct Impingement because that was how it was designed, not a jury rigged piston gun.
I want a Fixed Front Sight because it is less likely to be damaged. Any optics on my AR will be at least a 1X, possibly more in a variable scope but at least a 1X on the low end.
I want a 16” barrel with a standard profile (no HBAR) to keep it light. A 16” minimum because I do not want the Flash Hider welded on in case I ever want to change the fore-end, front sight, etc. Chrome-lined and MP tested parts where practical with a Vortex flash hider. No match or adjustable trigger.”
Well, ego (of having a really nice rifle?) or old age or tired of thinking or stupidity or whatever, got the best of me last Friday afternoon, and I deserted my “mission statement” ordering a rifle that was a far cry from what I needed (wanted). I told my kids that making a mistake is part of life but not trying to correct a mistake is arrogant and lazy.
So, this morning, I knew what I had to try to do. I started calling Noveske about 2-hours before they were open, hoping someone would pick up the phone. After an hour and a half, wouldn’t you know it, good ol’ Joel answered the phone 25-minutes before they were supposed to be open. He listened to my concerns about the Recon being too heavy and said, “No problem!” I told him that if the G trigger had been installed, I would pay for them to un-do it. Joel said to not worry and didn’t even take a snipe at me for changing my mind.
So, back to Post #49. I did what I said I was going to do. I ordered a Noveske N4 Light Basic 16”. I added a Geissele SSA Trigger, a Tan Vltor E-Mod Stock, a Tan Troy Rear Sight, a Tan Tango Down Pistol Grip, a VTAC Tan Padded Sling, and a Bolt and Carrier Group for a spare (although Joel said I’d never need it). I didn’t order two Basics but if #1 shoots half as good as I am expecting, I’ll have #2 in a month.
So, here I sit. I just read an e-mail from UPS that Noveske shipped my order. Guess they figured they’d better hurry and ship it out before I change my mind again…I ain’t…I am at peace (for now).
I’ll get the gun Friday and hopefully have a bunch of bullets through it before dark. Maybe a few after dark to see how the Vortex FH works. I’m curious to see how the Tan accessories will look.
Am I pitiful or what…?
Thank y’all.
I went to a gun store on saturday and was able to hold a 16" Recon 5.56mm Rifle with VIS and a switch block. It was very nice but nearly $600 more than the N4 light I was planning on buying. Then they handed me a LMT CQB MRP. It felt great and was $500 less than the N4 I was planning on ordering. I almost bought it on the spot. I went home researched the rifle, compared his price (which was at least $100 less than ANYWHERE I could find) and posted some Qs here. It took me about three hours to decide to get the LMT. What a long night and morning, they open a noon on Sundays, until I left to go make my purchase. I was hoping they hadn't sold it in the last hour and half of business they had left on Saturday. So far I couldn't be happier. I'm in the process of researching which optics to get for it and what flip sights I want. I think it's the perfect "working" rifle. I still want a Noveske as, at least in my mind, they are a piece of art. I just may end up w/ the same one you have ordered so please let me know what you thing about it when you get a chance. I also read on here that they get the BCG from LMT so I'm glad to hear their confidence in the BCG.
Funny how things work out sometimes.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo26/60/12/b000fe852771__1266153751000.jpeg
Well, here I am – a waffling reed-in-the-wind...
As some of you know, I ordered a Noveske Recon late Friday, 3-days ago. Things went well Saturday but Sunday, I read a few things about the Recon being a “little” heavy. Then, yesterday, Skyyr commented that his Recon with scope weighed 10-lbs. When I read that, it was like someone knee’d me.
Well, I hate to think I was the reason you cancelled getting your Recon (because I absolutely love mine), but if it guided you towards what you wanted, all the better. I think the biggest part to the Recon "feeling" heavy was the medium contour barrel. Instead of most of the weight being near the upper receiver and tapering off, the consistent contour adds weight over a longer arm in terms of the CG, making feel heavier than it is. Again, adding a UBR stock solved my complaints, but that might not be the case for everyone.
I definitely want to build another Noveske, most likely a basic, for my "go-to" model. Something that I didn't spend a small fortune on and something I can beat up and scratch without a second thought. Since that seems along your original line of thinking, I think you made a good choice with the 16" Basic model.
Just to throw another wrench in your line of thinking: you could always get a Recon (or other) upper, in addition to another 16" Basic upper, for the same cost of a Recon rifle. The parts in the lower are most likely never going to break, and you'd get 2 more lowers to build into future rifles. You'd have an extra Basic upper for your "one is none" line of thinking, a Recon upper for precision shooting, and two extra free lowers to store away for future builds. And if you ever wanted to sell them, you'd get $300-350 back out of them. Just a thought.
Best of luck to you... and be sure to take pictures! Like ARs, one can never have too many of those...
You will be happy with your rifle! You have a funny story now to tell about buying it too. Sounds like you made the right decision. Most of us have made mistakes ordering gadgets we thought we needed or wanted and found out hmm I don't like or need this. You caught it in time. Let us know how it shoots! That is one reason you should look @ the EE boards when you need or want some new gear. Folks sell brand new or like new stuff all the time when it does not work out for them or they make a change. I've bought and sold some great gear there! Good luck and have fun.
I want a mid-length rifle because of the better sight radius, longer grip, less violent recoil, and less stressed parts. An AR should be Direct Impingement because that was how it was designed, not a jury rigged piston gun.
This is lunacy. It should be a DI because that is how it was designed? Let's look at the history of DI rifles.
'Unlike conventional gas-operated firearms, direct impingement does away with a separate gas cylinder, piston, and operating rod assembly. High-pressure gas acts directly upon the bolt and carrier thereby saving weight, lowering costs, and reducing the mass of the operating parts.
The main disadvantage of direct impingement is that the breech of the firearm becomes fouled more quickly. This is caused by solids from the high-temperature gas condensing as they cool and being deposited on the bolt face and primary operating mechanism. An analogy is that steam, another hot gas, will condense quickly in air and on cooler objects. Combustion gases contain vaporized metals, carbon, and impurities in a gaseous state until they contact cooler operating parts. Thorough and frequent cleaning is required to ensure reliability. The amount of fouling depends upon the rifle's design as well as the type of propellant powder used. For example, the French MAS 44 and MAS 49 series of rifles was known to have been successfully operated for years with corrosive-primed ammunition using ordinary field cleaning expedients such as gasoline (as solvent) and straight-grade motor oil (as lubricant).[citation needed] While the 7.62mm Armalite AR-10 proved fairly resistant to malfunctions caused by deposit fouling, the smaller 5.56mm M16A1 experienced significantly increased malfunctions due to fouling and carbon deposits after a change in propellant specifications.
A further disadvantage of direct impingement is that combustion gases heat the bolt and bolt carrier as the firearm operates. This heating may alter the temper of metal parts, accelerating wear and decreasing the service life of the bolt, extractor, and extractor spring. Heat dries up lubricant and makes the operating parts difficult to handle when clearing malfunctions. Heat can also melt the lacquer coatings of steel cartridge cases, gumming up parts. Thermal expansion in the action can result in loss of tolerances and consequent degradation in accuracy.
Conversely, in a conventional gas piston design such as the Armalite AR-18, gas used to operate the firearm is isolated from the breech and contained within the gas cylinder then vented away from other working parts. Some systems actually contain the gas completely and vent excess back into the barrel, such as the M1 Carbine and FN SCAR.
The first experimental rifle using a direct impingement system was the French ENT 1901 Rossignol B1 rifle followed by Rossignol's B2, B4 and B5. The first successful production weapon was the MAS 40 rifle adopted in March 1940. The Swedish Ag m/42 is another well-known example. Both the French and Swedish rifles use a simple system whereby the gas tube acts as a piston with a cylinder recess in the bolt carrier.
The premier current example of direct impingement is the AR-15/M16 rifle designed by Eugene Stoner who first designed the Armalite AR-10. In the Stoner system covered by U.S. Patent 2,951,424, gas is routed from a port in the barrel directly to a chamber formed in the bolt carrier. The bolt acts as the piston and is sealed with small automobile-style piston rings.
Ok, so the only rifles to use DI in the last century have been a bunch of French rifles and the AR-15. Pretty good pedigree, wouldn't you say? The French are know to produce fantastic weapons of war: The Maginot Line, the FAMAS, the Chauchat (hated by my brother Teufel Hunden from WW I), to the Renault tanks.
DI was chosen by Eugene Stoner for simplicity, expediency and ease of manufacture, not to mention weight savings and most importantly cost savings (not to mention the fact that if you give a grunt something, he will take it apart and possibly lose stuff, although my 7" Diablo has the exact same number of parts as a DI gun).
The AR-15 is the only widely fielded Service Rifle in US History to employ DI, since the US Military started fielding Semi-Auto and Full Auto rifles to troops they have been Piston Operated. The M1, M1 Carbine, The Johnson Rifle, M14, BAR, M60, M249, M240 are all piston operated. They are all combat proven, have all performed valiantly in combat, and have been used in all "climbs and places where we can carry a gun"
Referring to a Piston Operated AR-15 as "cobbled together" is pure poppycock. I own 3 different specimens of Piston gun(PWS x2, LMT MRP Piston X1 and Adams Arms X2 and I will be converting my 6940 to piston as well). They all operate as good if not better than a DI AR-15. The best part is that they operate cooler, leave no fouling in the operation, and significantly cut down on maintenance. My 10" Adams Arms (the 1st production system in existence, GB-0001A) had almost 7000 rounds through it before I pulled the bolt carrier out, and even then all I did is brush off the bolt face and wipe off the op-rod. That was with minimal lube (Otis Dry Lube). If you tried to keep an AR running after 7K rounds with no PM, you would be crazy.
These systems are not "Cobbled together", just the opposite, the companies who developed them simply took Mr. Stoner's beautiful AR to the next level. Replacing the DI system on an AR is quite simply the best upgrade you can perform to an AR. The benefits go beyond what I mentioned above. Think about this. No gas rings mean no bolt failures, no hot gas pumped into the bolt means the bolt temperature do not exceed 120 degrees. this limits expansion of the bolt face, meaning continuous good bolt lock-up, no stress to the extractor (heating and cooling makes the extractor very fragile), no build-up of carbon on the bolt, or bolt carrier, so no stoppages due to fouling. No gas tube "sag", no variations in pressure due to gas tube expansion due to heat. Reducing the heat of the bolt and bolt carrier also prevents cook-offs under sustained fire. Since the bolt is cool, it cannot transfer excess heat to the chamber. Since most piston systems vent at the gas-block, the overall heat of the whole receiver is minimal. Also you get more consistent pressures and velocities from a Piston gun than you do from a DI, not o mention that you get higher reliability from short barrels without the use of muzzle booster like the KX-3 or Krinks. The list goes on and on.
Saying that piston systems on the AR is not a great advancement is like saying we were just fin with propeller driven aircraft. If the DI system is soo superior to the Piston system, explain why every one of the new crop of battle rifles are piston driven: HK416, SCAR, F2000, XCR, Masada, Tavor, and the list goes on. Not to mention the old school of modern Assault Rifles: L85A1, Steyr AUG, AR-70, CETME L/LC, G36, Galil, Valmet 95, Bofors AK-5, SA R4, Type 95, Daewoo K2, Type 89, and the list goes on.....
The rest of the world cannot be crazy. Piston operation is not the wave of the future, it is a tried and true operating system. It's benefits outweigh any shortcomings that may be found in Piston guns.
So in closing, just because Mr. Stoner chose DI for the AR-15, does not mean it is the best and only system of operation for the AR family.
After all Eugene Stoner did design a whole range of Piston guns including the much heralded Stoner LMG....
BTW, the XM-8 out-performed the M4 in every category, it was not adopted because of cost and the whole German Stigma
I am a Former Marine Infantry NCO, and spent 2 years as a Marksmanship PI and also taught advanced marksmanship at Advanced Infantry Training Company at Camp Geiger. I shot Expert Rifle 4 times and Expert pistol 2 times. This is just to clarify that I am not an AR fan-boy, I have carried the M-16A2 or variants for years...
Also, your assertion that "An AR should be Direct Impingement because that was how it was designed, not a jury rigged piston gun" is made moot by the fact that you chose a mid-length barrel configuration as this was not Mr. Stoner's original design (nor was the Carbine), his design was for a service rifle length barrel.
Semper Fi.
The rest of the world cannot be crazy. Piston operation is not the wave of the future, it is a tried and true operating system. It's benefits outweigh any shortcomings that may be found in Piston guns.
You're severely hijacking the OP's thread.
That being said, the piston has several drawbacks, especially in regards to the AR platform, some of them being:
- They are inherently less accurate than a DI system on the same weapon
- They run dirtier than DI weapons when suppressed
- They are entirely proprietary at this point in time, offering virtually no support outside each manufacturer
- They have more that can malfunction compared to the same weapon running a DI system
- They are more expensive when compared to DI weapon of similar design
- They impose forces on the weapon that it was not designed to undergo (i.e. carrier tilt)
- They are more prone to short-stroking
- And many more...
The piston AR is NOT a better weapon. It's simply a different weapon with different problems than the traditional DI AR.
Now let's get back on track and let the OP make up his own mind about what he deems is important to him.
You're severely hijacking the OP's thread.
That being said, the piston has several drawbacks, especially in regards to the AR platform, some of them being:
- They are inherently less accurate than a DI system on the same weapon
- They run dirtier than DI weapons when suppressed
- They are entirely proprietary at this point in time, offering virtually no support outside each manufacturer
- They have more that can malfunction compared to the same weapon running a DI system
- They are more expensive when compared to DI weapon of similar design
- They impose forces on the weapon that it was not designed to undergo (i.e. carrier tilt)
- They are more prone to short-stroking
- And many more...
The piston AR is NOT a better weapon. It's simply a different weapon with different problems than the traditional DI AR.
Now let's get back on track and let the OP make up his own mind about what he deems is important to him.
How did I hijack this thread, I was simply responding to the statement that Piston was not a viable system. I bow out.
M0rtarMan,
Man! That's a lot of info, thanks.
Just wondering, what type of sidearm do you prefer?
M0rtarMan,
Man! That's a lot of info, thanks.
Just wondering, what type of sidearm do you prefer?
Glock 19 loaded with Gold Sabers 124gr HPJ.
IMHO the Glock 19 is the best compact 9mm I have ever shot.
for a bigger bang I like my S&W M&P .45
Well, I'm having my Noveske Basic sent to a buddy's Shop about 150 miles away because I was going to go seem my Mom anyway and he doesn't charge me. Thought I'd go see my Mom, pickup my gun, and go shoot with some buddies - but not necessarily in that order. :D Mom will understand - - - yeah right!
I'm impressed so far. Noveske changed my order without complaint, accepted my order first thing Monday morning, installed the Geissele Trigger, shipped it out and my buddy called me 3:30 Wednesday afternoon to tell me it was in. That is about 54 hours and they just charged me $40 for shipping three boxes - the gun, the free receiver, and my spare BCG, stock, and sling. I think that is pretty cheap!
I've been odering some knic-knacs for it and should get them in Monday or so.
Well, I'm having my Noveske Basic sent to a buddy's Shop about 150 miles away because I was going to go seem my Mom anyway and he doesn't charge me. Thought I'd go see my Mom, pickup my gun, and go shoot with some buddies - but not necessarily in that order. :D Mom will understand - - - yeah right!
I'm impressed so far. Noveske changed my order without complaint, accepted my order first thing Monday morning, installed the Geissele Trigger, shipped it out and my buddy called me 3:30 Wednesday afternoon to tell me it was in. That is about 54 hours and they just charged me $40 for shipping three boxes - the gun, the free receiver, and my spare BCG, stock, and sling. I think that is pretty cheap!
I've been odering some knic-knacs for it and should get them in Monday or so.
Pics with nic nacks.
...snip for brevity...
You make some good points. I may have a bit of a man-crush on you.
"This is lunacy. ...
...how it was designed, not a jury rigged piston gun"
Semper Fi.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MOrtarMan,
To kill some time until I get my Noveske…
First I can in no way claim to know more about AR’s than anyone but I do have a little common sense. This is what I mean by "jury rigged".
A “piston AR” was designed to “FIT” under the confines of a DI AR's profile, in order to take advantage of an AR’s Lower and to have some parts interchangeability. Whooopee!!
Surely, an “AR piston” designer would have rathered to lower the piston centerline closer to the bore centerline, so the connecting rod will push the bolt back more in-line and avoid carrier tilt or move the pressure tap was 4" forward for a lower pressure impulse but...no... wait…he can’t do those things (or others) because it would not fit on an AR’s Lower or it wouldn’t work with a STANAG barrel or it wouldn’t fit under normal handguards and so on...
I remember some friends in college were ate up with the Corvette bug. They claimed the Corvette was the most engineered car in the world. I agreed and told them a Vette had to have extensive engineering to take a humongous V-8 engine and put in on a Nova frame and then to get everything to fit under an upside down Bass Boat for a body. They quit claiming the Vette was an engineering marvel.
I know AR’s have their limitations, they have to be lubricated – (not cleaned!). Over the past year, Pat Rogers of EAG Tactical has been “Testing and Evaluating” a DI mid-length Bravo Company Rifle. The Rifle went over 26K rounds with ONLY periodic lubing without any gun-related failures. He has claimed for years that “running an AR wet” is very reliable and greatly extends the cleaning intervals.
I’m sure there are plenty of piston operated rifles that could make it through 26K rounds but I don’t think many (if any) piston AR’s could. But I could be wrong… AK’s no problem, SIG550’s sure, G36’s absolutely, but a “piston AR”…I wouldn’t bet my life on it but maybe after 20+ years of serious battle use I might change my mind. Heck, I've read in a couple of places that the ultimate obi wan of "piston AR's" the HK has been pulled from service because of some issues???? Has anyone else heard this?
This same design mentality of fitting a piston operating mechanism under the hood of an AR is like someone trying to fit a jet engine on the Spirit of St. Louis and then claim it was “better”. It “may” work but it is far from ideal. I look at a “piston AR” like the .22 Long Rifle Adapter Kits for AR’s. Yeah, they work …maybe…and they might work for a while, but why? Give me a 10-22. To me, if I don’t like how an AR operates, I’m not going to buy an AR…period. I would not buy an adapted operating system to make the “faulty AR” work “better”, I would buy a later designed rifle that was originally designed to be a piston operated gun. If you want an optimum “piston operated” rifle, get one that was designed from the ground up to be a “piston operated” rifle and not try to adapt one onto the 50-year old frame of an AR.
MOrtarMan, I did not mean to offend you with my “jury rigged” comment.
Why is LaRue not on your list?:confused:
From personal experience I can say that their products are first rate and their customer service is as well.
Give them a call and they will build to your specifications while adding insightful suggestions.
They did for me.
Good luck with your project. Sounds like you have a plan. :cool:
Hello Guys,
Sorry I've been so busy and dropped the ball on reporting back.
I picked my Noveske Recce Basic up last Friday and a friend and I managed to shoot 160 rounds of plain 55Gr. Federal ammo Saturday. This was the first time I really shot open sights on an AR. Don’t like that “crowbar” for a front sight…guess I’ll have to get used to it. I did manage to shoot 15 sandbag shots in a 4" group and for me, I felt that was pretty good. My buddy shoots open sights a lot and managed to shoot 8/10 standing offhand at an 8" gong at 125 yards. He was impressed as well. We didn’t do any mag dumps but we did shoot like 10-rounds in a minute more than once. No jams of any type.
The Geissele SSA Trigger is fantastic. I had an ArmaLite with a NM trigger and the Geissele smokes it. What's really neat about it is it is not adjustable - it is a combat heavy duty trigger. Really nice.
So far, great! No regrets.
Only thing I was disappointed about is Noveke stopped putting the Noveske Cross on the seam between the upper and lower on factory rifles. Kind of disappointed me. Guess the “Cross” rifles will be worth a little more to collectors some day?? Noveske doesn’t have an indicator for factory rifles at this time…oh well!
I couldn’t stand it and cleaned my barrel. I hardly got any copper at all. One patch had a little and another one had just a trace. My deer rifles have way worse copper with only 20-25 shots.
I am going to our Sheriff Dept. range tomorrow. Generally there are a few SWAT guys there, so maybe they’ll shoot it and can give me their opinion. A friend is bringing an Aimpoint T1 on a Larue QD mount for me to try. I want to see if I can shoot a Red Dot with my stigmatism. To my old eyes, a Red Dot is a “Red Comma” sight.
I mounted some knick-knacks …a Magpul BAD, a Magpul AFG, and a GG&G Sling Thing for my VTAC Sling.
I will take some pictures and post them this weekend and report what happens at the Sheriff’s Range.
ColdDeadHands
02-24-10, 23:32
Thanks for the update. I received my Light Reece Basic upper last thursday and really like it.
Hey LMT42.
Just guess it is my age. I find myself to be less tolerant on important issues. I don't hate Colt and I don't hate Ruger but both of them backstabbed gun owners years ago. Now that Colt's government contracts are finished, they realized there is money to be made from those stupid civilians, so they jump to give us what we want...too late! I guess since Bill Ruger died, times got a little hard, so they're trying to increase their market share by catering to the "high capacity" crowd he backstabbed years ago.
I think we need to less tolerant when we are slighted but as a whole, we're not.
So, Colt can just keep their .154"/.170" FCG's and their LE/Military Only marked guns.
But maybe that's just me...
You are so off base about Colt it is not even funny, but you believe what you want to believe.
BTW, Colt switched to .154" pins over a year ago. ;)
You are so off base about Colt it is not even funny, but you believe what you want to believe.
BTW, Colt switched to .154" pins over a year ago. ;)
I think he is right on with Colt & Ruger. Why did Colt need to change the pin size last year? Both companies make great guns. I've owned several Ruger rifles and shotguns and love my. Ruger .22 pistol. The fact that both companies restricted ownership of certain weapon accessories or options upsets me. Ruger would not sell high cap mags to civilians and Colt marked/marks most of it's M4's as LE/Govt only, Why? Pins, bayonet lugs and the cage around the magazine release, do these things make one gun more deadly?
I'd get the Noveske now Recce now, and then you get the free stripped lower. Then buy a BCM or DD upper (or even another Noveske upper and you'd have ANOTHER lower) to put on that lower. There's your 2.
This is a great idea
Ok…I love the Noveske.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4337&stc=1&d=1267332308
First, let me say again, that the Geissele SSA trigger is super. It was a hard decision to get the trigger because I wanted the gun to be reliable. I’ve read that most adjustable triggers have not proved to be reliable and “match triggers” just don’t hold up to combat shooting. I did several detailed searches and could only find a rare person that didn’t like the SSA’s “feel” but everyone else loved them. I found no incidences of failures. So, I went with it. It is really a nice consistent trigger. (FYI – Geissele is pronounce “guys” + “lee”.) If I could, I'd put the Geissele on everything that I have that goes bang.
Here’s a quick rundown of the knick-knacks I put on the rifle.
The Magpul Battery Assist Device (B.A.D) is to enable you to keep your hand on the grip, work the Mag Release, Unlock, and Lock the Carrier. You lift the lever with your trigger finger to hold the bolt open and press down on it to release it. It takes some dexterity that I have not quite mastered yet, especially holding the bolt open. I kind of feel “challenged” trying to lift up on the lever with my trigger finger (unnatural motion) while using my left hand to pull the Charging handle rearward. But I can see with some practice, I will not look like I have two left hands.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4338&stc=1&d=1267332230
The Magpul Angled Fore Grip (AFG) is comfortable. I have not shot offhand with it much but to me, it is more natural feeling than a Vertical Grip. It is also much more streamline than a VFG. PLUS it’s a lot cheaper ($35) than a good VG. Make shifting your grip very easy.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4339&stc=1&d=1267332329
I also added GG&G Sling Thing to the Front Sight to attach the VTAC Sling. What I do not like about the Sling Thing, is it seems to only work with the QD Swivel that came from GG&G. The QD Swivels that came from VTAC don’t hold in the Sling Thing. The Vltor E-Mod stock has QD points on each side but right now, I prefer the one that Noveske puts in the Cover Plate, just below where the Buffer Tube connects to the Lower. I have not been vigorously active with the gun slung with the muzzle down, I might have the butt too high where it could kack me in the mouth. We’ll see.
The only other mod is the Front Sight Post. Like I said in an earlier post, I’m not used to the “crowbar looking” front sight. So, I took a spare sight, put some jam nuts on it, chucked it up in a drill, filed it to about a 45± degree point, and spray painted it flat back. I like it a lot better than the square post and my buddy that shot it liked it better. We’ll see. The picture makes the Sight look a little "out of kilter" but it isn't, its just the angle of the picture.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4340&stc=1&d=1267332336
The only other add-on I intend is a Tan (I’ve got to coordinate) Magpul MOE Mid-Length Hand Guard…when they come out…supposedly in July, so I can add a flashlight. The Magpul AFG will bolt right to the bottom of the MOE and has rails can be added at 10:00 and 2:00. My only concern whether the sling connected to the Front Sight, will interfere with the flashlight mounted at 10:00…we’ll see.
Now for my biggest eye opener…the Aimpoint T1 that my buddy has on his Noveske is unbelievable! I figured the red dot would be difficult to see on the red diamond targets that the deputies put out for us to shoot, so I printed some targets with 8” white centers with a 2” black outer ring, so we could see the 4 MOA red dot and center it in the black ring. It seemed to work well … but my buddy shot those targets up pretty quick. He was getting 2-1/2” - 3” 10-shot groups at 100 yards with a 4 MOA red dot.
When I started shooting the 1X Aimpoint, the red dot remained a “red comma” no matter how hard I squinted. The only targets left to shoot were the 4” red diamond targets that the deputies put out. With no magnification, targets on the shade side of the boards, 19-year old ammo, and my old eyes, (I couldn’t think of anymore excuses) I could just barely make out a faint “pink” smudge at 100-yards. I lowered the brightness of the red dot (comma) down so it was barely visible and I still could not make out the pink diamond.
So, for each shot, I would put the dot to the left of the diamond, so I could try to make out where the diamond was, then swing the red dot to where I “thought” the diamond was and shoot. Thirty shots later, I had a 7-1/2” group and if you removed one shot, it was about 5-1/2”. I couldn’t believe it. It was almost like magic.
I will (Lord willing) get a Aimpoint Micro T1 with a Larue QD mount. It is amazing. My buddy sighted the T1 for his eyes and it shot a little different for me, thought that was a little unusual. He also shot 10 shots in the bullseye, took the T1 off of the gun using the Larue mounts, put it back on and shot 10 more shots with NO apparent shift. Pretty neat.
Well, if you can’t tell, I am more than satisfied. I have 245-round through the rifle and not a single malfunction.I want to temporarily mount a scope and shoot some match ammo to see what the rifle is capable of. Maybe I can sneak off somewhere and shoot it some more…we’ll see…
Thanks for the excellent review, very interesting. My Noveske arrives this week, hope I love it as much as you love yours.
Thanks for the excellent review, very interesting. My Noveske arrives this week, hope I love it as much as you love yours.
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djegators,
What are you getting?
Recce Low Profile :D
http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/r-lrlp-556_1d.jpg
[QUOTE=djegators;585611]Recce Low Profile :D
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My buddy that has the Aimpoint T1 has a Recce FSB, almost the same gun but yours "should" be more accurate. He loves his.
He loved my Geissele trigger. He said he's going to one and install it. I kind of wish I had done that because that way I would have a spare quality trigger as a backup.
ColdDeadHands
02-28-10, 17:56
[QUOTE=djegators;585611]Recce Low Profile :D
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My buddy that has the Aimpoint T1 has a Recce FSB, almost the same gun but yours "should" be more accurate. He loves his.
He loved my Geissele trigger. He said he's going to one and install it. I kind of wish I had done that because that way I would have a spare quality trigger as a backup.
Why should it be more accurate? Having a FSB doesn't make it less accurate.
[QUOTE=ucrt;586101]
Why should it be more accurate? Having a FSB doesn't make it less accurate.
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Hey ColdDeadHands,
I would have thought so too but speaking to the Noveske rep, he said the more weight "on" the barrel the less accurate the barrel. Noveske currently uses the Vltor Gas Block, which according to their site weighs 1.4 ounces. He said there are lighter gas blocks but they have not held up as well as the Vltor.
Got to appreciate Noveske's adherence to keeping reliability #1.
For additional accuracy, he said a free-float handguard, improved trigger, and then, the SS barrels. What's interesting is that none of the SS barrelled rifles have a FSB. Guess they figure you want a SS barrel for accuracy, so why use a FSB to hinder accuracy.
I think he is right on with Colt & Ruger. Why did Colt need to change the pin size last year? Both companies make great guns. I've owned several Ruger rifles and shotguns and love my. Ruger .22 pistol. The fact that both companies restricted ownership of certain weapon accessories or options upsets me. Ruger would not sell high cap mags to civilians and Colt marked/marks most of it's M4's as LE/Govt only, Why? Pins, bayonet lugs and the cage around the magazine release, do these things make one gun more deadly?
Funny, I had no problems purchasing an LE6920, and if I had the money I would buy a 6940 to go with it. Have you bothered to ask Colt, or just speculate? I'm going to say speculate because I did ask, at the SHOT Show two years ago. The LE and MT lines are still in place because some states still have an AWB. And according to Colt, the MT line still sells so they still make them. There are no company imposed restrictions for civilian purchase of the standard semi-auto LE line.
As for the older Colts with sear blocks, etc. you would have to educate yourself about the history of gun control and public opinion in this country during the days of those wretched parts. You also have to remember there was Colt and a couple of small time manufacturers who were barely a blip on the map. Especially in the 1980s and into the AWB of 1994 there was a big noose of public opinion around the necks of "assault rifle" manufacturers. Colt was trying to cover their ass. I know, it's easier to be ignorant of the history of your own country and countrymen but the truth is out there if you want to find it.
ColdDeadHands
03-01-10, 00:56
Hey ColdDeadHands,
I would have thought so too but speaking to the Noveske rep, he said the more weight "on" the barrel the less accurate the barrel. Noveske currently uses the Vltor Gas Block, which according to their site weighs 1.4 ounces. He said there are lighter gas blocks but they have not held up as well as the Vltor.
Got to appreciate Noveske's adherence to keeping reliability #1.
For additional accuracy, he said a free-float handguard, improved trigger, and then, the SS barrels. What's interesting is that none of the SS barrelled rifles have a FSB. Guess they figure you want a SS barrel for accuracy, so why use a FSB to hinder accuracy.
Well, in my hands shooting Irons or a RDS (10'-100') my Recon and Reece Basic are the same accuracy wise. Keep in mind that John Noveske is a accuracy freak.:D Most people probably won't notice a difference.
Well, in my hands shooting Irons or a RDS (10'-100') my Recon and Reece Basic are the same accuracy wise. Keep in mind that John Noveske is a accuracy freak.:D Most people probably won't notice a difference.
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Just wondering, ColdDeadHands, have you tried a scope with a few different load's just to see what the potential of each rifle is?
I'm going to try a Leupold 2-7X with a couple different match loads plus few different ball loads just to see the accuracy potential. From what I understand, the Larue QD Mounts are great at returning to zero. But when it's all said and done, I'll either have Larue QD mounts for a T1 and/or a quality 1-4X scope and open sights.
I think having a scope that I can have sighted in to play with at 250-300 yards on Larue QD's, would be fun...but keeping the gun RTG with practical 50-100yds. sights.
ColdDeadHands
03-01-10, 06:30
No, I haven't. I have a Nikon 3-9x40 laying around but don't have any rings for it. I'm finishing up my light reece right now...after that my recon will get some attention and I'm going to mount the Nikon on it till I have funds for something better.
I agree with you on the Larue mounts. I've had one for a M4s and have one now for a H1 on the reece.
As for the older Colts with sear blocks, etc. you would have to educate yourself about the history of gun control and public opinion in this country during the days of those wretched parts. You also have to remember there was Colt and a couple of small time manufacturers who were barely a blip on the map. Especially in the 1980s and into the AWB of 1994 there was a big noose of public opinion around the necks of "assault rifle" manufacturers. Colt was trying to cover their ass. I know, it's easier to be ignorant of the history of your own country and countrymen but the truth is out there if you want to find it.
I don't think you realize that 99.999% of the posters on this board already know what you posted (including the poster you were replying to). In fact, what you just posted is exactly why people have negative views of Colt and you're only proving that you don't understand the real subject matter.
Instead of working with non-LE/.mil, they simply try to repackage what they already had been selling for years, except with anti-civilian (how blatant is "Military and Law Enforcement Only"???) roll-marks, proprietary FCG pins, etc. to avoid law-suits. In the meantime, many other manufacturers have simply reviewed the laws and made guns that legally can be owned.
Colt is behaving just like the government that instituted the AWB: Instead of simply selling their legal product and letting the buyer do his part to follow the laws, they take it on themselves to restrict civilian sales because someone might break a law due to their own ignorance.
The fact that they were "just trying to cover themselves" (to quote you, minus the expletive) IS the problem. Luckily for us, several other companies (like Noveske, LMT, KAC, BCM) stepped up to the plate and made superior AR's (with nicer finishes) while Colt was out trying to keep us civilians from possibly breaking the laws.
Now that Colt virtually has only one market (.mil and LE contracts) due to their stunts over the last 15 years, they really have nothing to compete with on the commercial AR battlefield. Sure, they've got their 6920's and 6940's and boring, stripped-down MT's, but that's it. And now they're suffering because civilian AR sales have boomed and they can't get the market share.
No, I haven't. I have a Nikon 3-9x40 laying around but don't have any rings for it. I'm finishing up my light reece right now...after that my recon will get some attention and I'm going to mount the Nikon on it till I have funds for something better.
I agree with you on the Larue mounts. I've had one for a M4s and have one now for a H1 on the reece.
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I don’t know if you’ve ever seen or used the Burris XTR Xtreme Tactical Scope Rings but they are tough. I’ve never checked how well they return to zero when removed but I'd think if they were torqued, it would be real close. For the money, ($60 pair) I think they are about the best available. Six screws on each ring half and the screw that holds them to the picatinny rail is a 5/16” screw with a ½” nut…super solid.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/jpg/XTR_rings.jpg
I used them on the ArmaLite I sold and it shot great groups (after finally breaking it in). I’ve got a buddy that was ragging me for using “aluminum” rings because he said good rings “should be steel”. He told me aluminum was too soft a metal to hold reliably, that only steel could withstand the recoil. “Hmmm” I said, “…what are those super heavy-duty almighty $125 steel rings clamping to…an aluminum picatinny rail!” He’s got two sets now and rants about how good they are...but they are aluminum.
I used the Extra Highs but I think I would have just rathered the Highs. Just a thought.
ColdDeadHands
03-01-10, 19:20
Thanks for the info. I've had these (http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Tac-30mm-1-Rings-P41853.aspx) on my list till I have the funds for a better scope setup, they seem to be the same as the Burris rings for $10 less.
Thanks for the info. I've had these (http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Tac-30mm-1-Rings-P41853.aspx) on my list till I have the funds for a better scope setup, they seem to be the same as the Burris rings for $10 less.
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Man! Those look identical 'cept for the round and square holes. Wonder who makes them for Burris and SWFA. Just a note tried to look at them a few minutes ago and the link is lost. Tried a search on the site and still couldn't find them??
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