View Full Version : AAR: Vickers/Hackathorn M4C Invitational Class, Feb 5-7 2010 *Pics Up*
John_Wayne777
02-09-10, 15:31
Once a year M4Carbine.net tries to hold a class where the mods, staff, and invited guests can get together for some learning on the range and some fellowship off the range. This year's class was graciously hosted by the U.S. Training Center in Moyock, N.C. (Formerly Blackwater USA) As anyone who has been there will tell you, it's one of the nicest range facilities on the planet. The versatility of the facility allows instructors the freedom to present interesting and challenging scenarios to the students to further the learning process.
Originally the class was slated to be taught by Mr. Vickers, but somehow he talked Ken Hackathorn into joining in on the fun. Ken was in excruciating back pain and yet still traveled over 8 hours on the road to get to the class, spent full days on the range in horrible weather during the class, and endured another day's journey on the road to get home while in a back brace and in what I can imagine was enough pain to leave most dudes in a fetal position crying for mama. Ken is one tough hombre. That he thought enough of us to put up with all that nonsense to help out LAV and meet a commitment to be there is awesome.
You'll notice I mentioned weather. If you've been paying attention to the news...or if you live somewhere on the eastern half of the US and you've walked outside...you've noticed that we are in the midst of a record-breaking round of storms dropping feet of snow everywhere. February in North Carolina and Virginia can be a crapshoot. It can be sunny and 75, or it can be 3 feet of snow and everything in between. In Moyock it was near-freezing rain that began at around lunchtime on TD1 and persisted for the rest of the day, becoming progressively more heavy and miserable as the day went on. Day 2 was a slightly more pleasant mixture of snow and rain with even lower temperatures. Day 3 was chilly, but dry. Cold by itself isn't so bad. Wet by itself isn't so bad. Cold and wet, however, is just miserable. Despite the weather, we still had fun and learned quite a bit.
TD1 --
We started TD1 with a safety brief and an outline of some of the content of the course. The classroom session ended with Mr. Vickers pronouncing that all of our optics were dead for that day's instruction. We broke into two groups and headed to the range, with my group going with LAV for carbine instruction. I was actually kind of glad that Mr. Vickers terminated our optics as that gave me a chance to pull my as-yet-unfired Daniel Defense XV upper out of the box and use it since several others still needed to zero their iron sights. Not only did the upper work perfectly out of the box, it was a couple of clicks on the front sight away from being perfectly zeroed from the box.
After doing some basic zeroing...and personally spending a little time drooling over Buck's LAPD semi-auto Thompson...we moved on to a couple of drills.
Then Mr. Vickers went on to teach us a point shooting technique with the carbine. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. "Speed is fine, accuracy is final" spent an entire morning's instruction on point shooting with the carbine. Why? Because if you have an iron sighted weapon in low light, you are basically stuck point shooting without a light on the target you can use to define your sight picture. Mr. Vickers showed us a very viable technique that works quite well at close range, when moving, and even at longer ranges. We did a point shooting walkback drill that went back almost to 100 yards with people still making solid hits on the steel target at that range....with taped up sights. The top performer on the walkback was Buck with his Tommy gun. It was rather funny as most people who missed missed because they were shooting over the target, misjudging the technique Mr. Vickers showed us. We were continually directed to aim low. Buck, however, had to lob that 230 grain bullet in there and so he had to aim high.
It was rather comical to see all the modern hardware on the line flame out and then to see Buck step up with his old Gat and BANG......IthinkIcan, IthinkIcan, IthinkIcan...........tink. Hit.
After breaking for lunch we swapped ranges and my group went to do pistol stuff with Ken. By this point the rain had started in earnest and everyone was bundled up in their rain gear and gloves. Ken took us through a block of pistol instruction where he used some of his standard assessment and skill drills to give us a measure of where we were in our handgun skills. This list is shamelessly stolen from Mark5pt56:
PISTOL
1, 2, 3 Drill (18 shots)
IPSC/IDPA TARGET, draw, 1, 2, 3 shots.
5 yards-SHO-head
10 yards-2HS-body
20 yards-2HS-body
1-5 Drill (static and moving) (15/30 shots)
3 IPSC/IDPA targets. Par is 20 seconds, 15 good, 10 really good, 1 second added for each miss (outside of A zone) 15 shots total.
10 yards, body shots, 1 on #1, 2 on #2, 3 on #3, 4 on #2 and 5 on #1.
HACKATHORN Head Drill (9 shots)
IPSC/IDPA target. 3 SECOND PAR.
7 yards (do w/o draw, then work to draw) One shot per. #1-left-right, #2-right-left, #3-center, and then R-L/L-R.
COMPASS DRILL (12 shots)
IPSC/IDPA target, body
Start at 12 yards, 3 shots forward, 3 back, 3 left and then 3 right
COMPASS DRILL W/STATIC SHOT (16 SHOTS)
Same drill but with static head shot at end of each movement.
RELOAD DRILL (5 shots)
IPSC/IDPA target. 3 second par. 5 repetitions.
10 yards, start with slide lock, mag in, reload and one shot.
SWITCH HANDS/EYE (12 SHOTS)
IPSC/IDPA TARGET
10 yards, shoot one right handed/right eye, switch to left hand/eye, repeat six times
It's a great set of drills.
At around 3:45 pm we were all pretty much freezing and soaking wet. Mr. Vickers drove up in the Mystery Van and told us that he was pulling the plug on his section due to overall misery. We wrapped it up shortly after that and headed back to the classroom.
Mr. Vickers gave a written test in the last mod/staff class that was, and I'm quoting him directly here, mainly for his own amusement. He again decided to amuse himself with a written test based on the AR-10 family of rifles, the FN family of 5.56/.223 weapons, the SVD family of rifles, and the Browning Hi-Power pistols. Out of over a dozen questions I managed to snag the highest score with 9 correct answers. Most scores were....um....considerably lower. How did I end up with the high score in the room, you ask? Easy: Templar hadn't shown up yet.**
Hey, a win by default is still a win. I takes it however I can gets it.
After making fun of our collective ignorance (particularly the guy who answered that the distinguishing characteristic of the first AR-10 magazine was that it was clear) and handing out some SWAG graciously provided to us by Magpul (PMAGs, BAD levers, and AFGs) and the nice people who make TW-25B, we headed back to the hotel for some pizza and beer and fellowship.
TD2 --
.
TD3 --
Thankfully the weather on TD3 was much better than on the previous days. It was still cold, but at least there was no precipitation.
We spent the day running through some drills scored for accuracy like the carbine version of the 1-2-3-4-5 drill. The drill is run at 35 yards for the carbine and requires 3 targets. The shooter fires 1 round on target 1, 2 rounds on target 2, 3 rounds on target 3, then 4 rounds on target 4 and then 5 rounds on target 1. Hits outside the A zone add seconds to your overall time.
The standard given to us was a 20 second passing grade. 15 seconds or less was really good. 10 seconds or less was phenomenal.
I scored a 10.90, the high score until Grant tried it. Grant-hawk with his zero recoil suppressed wunderrifle did it a little more than a second better, which I regard as worthless since he was cheating. ***
After lunch we did some team drills involving shooting on the move. 6 shooters per team, and each shooter's performance was scored to come up with the team's overall performance. Team names, as is the standard in Vickers courses, were approved based on the entertainment value for LAV. Team "Aim Fast, Miss Faster", of which I was a part, won the drill. Our team captain was Josh of Grey Group who told me that I seemed to be one of the faster and more accurate shooters there. I secretly wondered if he'd lost his contacts or something.
After the last drill (and note that I'm skipping over some stuff for the sake of brevity...and yes, the first person to joke about my brevity in an AAR will get an internet noogie) we headed back to the classroom for a little session on the world according to Ken and Larry.
The first item was a question:
If we had to be sent to a remote place with little support resources and needed a handgun that we expected to have to employ to save our bacon, what handgun would we take?
The majority of the class answered: Glock 17. A smaller number answered Glock 19. A still smaller contingent answered Sig P226. One dude answered M&P...and no, it wasn't me. As much as I don't like them, I also picked the G17.
This led to a rundown of the state of pistoldom from Ken. Turns out 9mm Glocks, particularly the G17, are pretty darn reliable guns. .40 caliber Glocks are the most problematic service pistol in America. 10mm Glocks seem to work pretty good. The M&P has the potential to one day unseat the 9mm Glock's current status as the standard for reliability and durability by which other weapons are judged, but it has not accomplished that yet.
The 1911 is a dying platform. Keep in mind that this was said in a room with some of the world's foremost 1911 experts. A few of the students in the class (including me) were die-hard 1911 guys in the past and have transitioned to combat tupperware. The last remaining 1911 holdout in the class (ErikL) stated that this was his last class with a 1911.
After that we had a brief discussion of terminal ballistics where a gentleman who works for an agency that has killed a lot of scumbags with modern 9mm JHP ammo stated that their department was seeing superb results in the field with their 9mm guns. Mr. Vickers added that in all the training he has done he has yet to encounter a department using 9mm's with good ammo that have complained about the performance they've seen with the 9mm on the street. "9mm if you can carry JHP ammo, .45 if you're stuck with ball."
It was quite surreal for a dude who grew up reading about the 1911 and about terminal ballistics in gun magazines. When I was reading all that stuff all those years ago I never dreamed I would be in the same room with a guy like Ken hearing this kind of stuff.
All in all we didn't shoot very many rounds. I've said this about prior Vickers/Hackathorn courses, but it bears repeating here: Low round count does not translate into low value. I took away some valuable lessons from this course in addition to all the fun and enjoyment usually attendant when the M4C regulars get together. Any time spent learning from instructors the caliber of Ken and Larry is well spent, and any money put into the effort is a sound investment.
Thanks to USTC for hosting us, Magpul and Milcomm for the swag, Ken for enduring excruciating pain just to be there, Larry for not punching me in the head first thing on Thursday night, Sylvan for doing some logistics work on the hotel arrangements and the frangible ammo, Buck and the taxpayers of L.A. for letting me play with the Thompson, and lastly to Dinger for the magnificent weather.
** Note: We gave the same quiz to Templar later over some pizza and beer (water, in my case) and he bested my score by only missing a single question. Why is this at the bottom of the AAR as a note? Because it's my AAR, dammit.
*** Note: Why is Grant's rifle cheating? Because he has gone on and on and on about how little recoil it has and how fast it is and I was using a basic Colt 6920. Besides, it's my AAR, dammit.
thanks for the book......eeerrrrrr uh I mean AAR :)
Good stuff man. Looks like you guys had fun. Anyone take any pics?
Excellent JW! Templar will get the pics up soon once he gets them from Mr. Tae
Once again, we all had a chance to test cold/wet weather gear. My Danners and Asolo's still are the ticket! The old Mil Gore-Tex always works for me along with some old polypro and fleece.
According to Ken and Larry, my LMT 10.5 is a keeper! She ran like a Singer on everything she was given. Three kinds of frangeable from various mags-one being a new untested CProducts 40 rounder-Templar got a kick out of the 80's throwback. And I even used Miltec, left over from 15 years ago if you can believe that.
My other blaster was a carbine totally built by me, parts and parts on it, ran the same. DD CHF'ed barrel, left over CMT upper, nickel bolt from Talon Arms, Stag lower w/G&R lpk, Colt tube and LMT stock, LMT rear and M3 in a Larue 1/3. Standard M4 HG's and a VTAC Surefire light in a Vltor E series mount and an old Surefire barrel mount-mounted at the 11:00, and of course a Vickers sling.
And of course my trusty old G17.
As always, excellent class with loads of imparted knowledge.
John_Wayne777
02-09-10, 16:50
Good stuff man. Looks like you guys had fun. Anyone take any pics?
Ted Tae, who has photographed for playboy, took pics. We'll see them before too long, I suspect.
"I've taken pictures on a lot of projects, but all anyone ever asks me about is playboy!"
Another M4C invite class and another great time had by all. I would like to thank the good folks at Magpul for their gear donations. I would also like to thank Buck #2 for all the gear he brought for everyone. Thanks to Mil-Comm for the lube and cleaning supplies as well.
Those that attend training with me on a regular basis know that if I am on the range, the chances of rain are EXTREMELY high. Because of this, I am kind of used to it. This weekend training session was no different. :mad: Something about standing in 38 degree rain for hours on end just kind of beats you down. Everything I owned was 100% soaked to include the small ap on my BUIS. I now have a new SOP for shooting my AR. It goes like this:
1. Load weapon.
2. Chamber check.
3. Get in stance.
4. Raise my weapon.
5. Blow on my rear sight to remove the rain bubble that is blocking my F*CKING VIEW.
6. Acquire target and fire weapon.
Weapons used:
AR: Custom built 10.5 setup for suppressed use.
Pistol: S&W M&P with Trijicon RMR Sight.
No malfuctions with either weapon the entire class.
The two most common things heard at the class:
1. F*CK DINGER!
2. I feel like kicking a baby.
On day two, we got to get out of the elements and into BW's fantastic shoot houses. These things are massive and confusing to say the least. Lot's of great lessons learned in these.
For .223 Frang, I used IC 42gr. http://www.iccammo.com/ This ammo (according to IC) WOULD work fine with my suppressed 10.5. They were right. My gun ran like a top with it.
TD3 was a bright, sunny day in the 28-30 degree range. No one complained.
Ken and LAV ran us as one squad together through their usual timed, accuracy drills that test everyone’s ability. My favorite drill that Ken does is the 1-5. As you can read in JW777's post, I smoked his candy ass and he seems less than pleased. :D
In the end, a lot of beer was consumed, lies told and friends made. Mission accomplished.....
C4
JW great AAR. it was nice to meet you.
GLOCKMASTER
02-09-10, 17:43
Great AAR's guys!!!
I hate I had to miss this one.:(
Good times.... A special thanks to all the industry folks who provided the swag...
B
** Note: We gave the same quiz to Templar later over some pizza and beer (water, in my case) and he bested my score by only missing a single question. Why is this at the bottom of the AAR as a note? Because it's my AAR, dammit.
Dude, why the hate? :cool:
Outstanding AAR J_W.
Unfortunately, I missed TD1, even in the freezing wet, I would have gotten a lot out of the training.
As J_W said, I got there that night, and the guys were a beat bunch, but a good beat.
Everyone showed up for TD-2, and I have to say it was a great training experience. I've done a lot of training with Ken and Larry in the past, but not to the extent that we were able to at USTC. With Ken, where you ran in two man teams, I used my SIG P226 exclusively, because the chances of me using a carbine in an indoor environment are extraordinarily low, and I wanted to get as much training with that as I could. With Larry, I ran my Colt 6920 with the same set up that I've used for the last two years, with a Kahles CSX 1.1-4 illuminated dot reticle, which worked well inside and out.
Low light training increases the stress and difficulty exponentially, but Ken and Larry still kept our feet to the fire to maintain accuracy.
TD3, the weather finally co-operated with us and the sun came out. As J_W said, the two squads reunited and shot together.
Accuracy, speed. Being able to accomplish a smooth magazine change under stress. Being able to transition to side arm quickly and efficiently, being able to transition to the weak shoulder smoothly under time. All of these are skills you should know and all of these were skills we worked on.
A better group of guys would be hard to come by. Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers have been legends in the community for decades, and for good reason. Any opportunity to train with them should be taken, and to match that with the opportunity to use USTC as a host, just made for one of the best classes I've attended.
Many thanks to the guys at Magpul, they couldn't make it due to prior engagements, but they sent a massive amount of goodies for all of us. The same thanks to Milcomm.
I wasn't able to take any pics on TD1 (hadn't arrived yet) or TD2 (too busy shooting), but on TD3, with both squads assembled, I was able to take some pics of the first squad as I waited for mine to come up to the line.
Tad Tae has to get back to Kali and download what he's got, we'll post them as we can.
TD3
NCPatrolAR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040407.jpg
The_Katar
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040409.jpg
VA_Dinger and his HK 416 10.5
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040413.jpg
Our photographer, Tad Tae, getting some trigger time with Ken Hackathorn
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040419.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040422.jpg
J_W777 displaying his displeasure at the knowledge base tests........ :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040424.jpg
MAP doing some time/accuracy drills, well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/MikeP1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040425.jpg
Eric Rice from Daniel Defense, a great guy and great shooter.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040435.jpg
Ashley from Blue Force Gear
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040433.jpg
Guys on the line.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040427.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040430.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040443.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040444.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040448.jpg
I don't say much, so to summarize:
Larry Vickers + Ken Hackathorn + US Training Center = :D
I feel extremely blessed and thankful to have been able to attend this rare training opportunity.
Great seeing most of the old VA crew again.
And as always, thanks to VA_Dinger!
TD1 - Cold. Followed by more cold. Capped off with cold and driving cold rain. +1" precip in three hours.
TD2 - Cold. Followed by cold with drizzle. Then more cold & windy and light dusting of snow. Not to be outdone by the lowlight training in the teens with driving wind. +15 - 20mph.
TD3 - Sunny and cold. In comparison to TD1 & TD2, a veritable Indian Summer.
:D **** Dinger. :D
Jay Cunningham
02-09-10, 20:01
Really had a great time - nice to meet back up with old friends and make some new ones. Weather sucked but oh well.
Thanks to VA_Dinger, C4IGrant, and SHIVAN for arranging the class and lodging and buying grub and beer for all the staff and mods.
Thanks to MagPul and Mil-Comm for much of the swag goodness.
Special thanks to LAV and especially Ken - we all knew his back was hurting but he stood out there in the cold anyway. I learned some excellent new drills and techniques that I hope to draw on in the future.
Looking forward to next year! In Aruba! :cool:
Thanks for the AAR
Question for Grant...I notice the pic of your 10.5"....looks like your self and another shooter have similar setup with the Troy Extreme Rail. Any idea of the weight without the suppressor (I realize you posted the upper is built for what I assume is dedicated suppressed use). Curiosity.......Did you build the other shooters upper as well? What 10.5" upper/barrel you running?
Thanks
GermanSynergy
02-09-10, 21:18
Looks like one helluva class. Is that a 40 rd PMAG that Tad Tae is using?
Looks like one helluva class. Is that a 40 rd PMAG that Tad Tae is using?
Nope, that's a new magazine from Bulgaria.
GermanSynergy
02-09-10, 21:23
Nope, that's a new magazine from Bulgaria.
Interesting! How did it hold up under training conditions?
Interesting! How did it hold up under training conditions?
Having looked at it, and knowing some of the back story, I have very high hopes. I thought it was outstanding.
GermanSynergy
02-09-10, 21:28
Having looked at it, and knowing some of the back story, I have very high hopes. I thought it was outstanding.
Can't wait till they are released! :cool:
Wow, great AAR!
I can't imagine Ken driving 8 hours in a back brace to be there. When my back is bad (and not nearly that bad) I have trouble making it accross town. That is friggen drive and dedication (Ken, not me).
RogerinTPA
02-10-10, 08:17
Excellent AAR guys. Great training, shit weather, good people, good chow, what more could you ask for.:cool:
Thanks for the AAR
Question for Grant...I notice the pic of your 10.5"....looks like your self and another shooter have similar setup with the Troy Extreme Rail. Any idea of the weight without the suppressor (I realize you posted the upper is built for what I assume is dedicated suppressed use). Curiosity.......Did you build the other shooters upper as well? What 10.5" upper/barrel you running?
Thanks
The gun to the right of mine was built by me off of a LMT registered SBR.
My 10.5 config is:
Noveske N4 Lite barrel with pinned BG with special small gas port
VLTOR MUR
LMT Enhanced Carrier with standard LMT bolt
Noveske Lower
LMT SOPMOD stock and RE with an LMT H3 buffer
SureFire MB5556K
SureFire 556k Suppressor
Troy 9.0 Extreme Rail
Daniel Defense Front and Rear BUIS's
Daniel Defense Micro Aimpoint Mount
Aimpoint T-1
BCM GunFighter Charging Handle (mod 4)
Geis. SSA Trigger
G&R Tactical LPK
BFG Vickers Padded sling (G&R version with swivels sewn in)
C4
Can't wait till they are released! :cool:
They are already out (have two of them).
C4
Great AAR and it sounds like you guys had a great time in spite of the challenging weather. Sorry I missed this one but that work shit got in the way.
I really enjoyed meeting and shooting with you guys. The instructors were top notch and the facility was incredible. Thanks for the invite!
Stephen
Looks like everybody was cold as hell, but it also looked like a great class taught by two greats. Great AAR JW!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040439.jpg
AR:
Noveske 10.5" SS Barrel
COLT Bolt and BC.
AAC M4-2000 mod06 w/ Phantom mount
Surefire G2L with Z49 cap
Vltor SM-G Scout mount
KAC rail panels
Aimpoint M2
ADM AD-68H Aimpoint mount
LMT SOPMOD
KAC Rear sling QD
Vickers VCAS (G&R Version with sewn in QD)
Daniel Defense 9.0 Lite
Tango Down stubby forward grip
Magpul MIAD B3
Magpul trigger guard
H2 Buffer
Pistol:
Internally stock Kimber Warrior w/ golfball'ing by Chuck Rogers
Surefire X200B
Safariland 6004
Light setup - Nylon:
Eagle CP.223OD (Chest rig)
Eagle DMP-3-FB-45/220 belt mag pouches
Bladetech AR tek-lok belt pouch
Blackhawk "USGI" belt
Heavy setup - Nylon
Eagle PC with Cumberbund
Tactical Tailor 3x shingle
Eagle/SKD 2x4 FB shingle
Eagle/SKD 1x2 FB shingle
PPI IIIa Soft Armor
IV Rifle Plate with IIIa backer front
III Rifle Plate with IIIa backer rear
For frangible ammo, I had to switch to an unsuppressed COLT 6933 using a CAR buffer. It would not run the Fiocchi 45gr frang using the H buffer. Worked perfectly with the CAR buffer. The Noveske 10.5 upper would not run the Fioochi either -- with or without can. I intend to troubleshoot this with different buffers later.
Jay Cunningham
02-11-10, 15:15
For the record, my LE6920 ran perfectly fine with Fiocchi frangible ammo.
John_Wayne777
02-11-10, 15:37
I had one failure to feed with the Fiocci frang stuff.
For the record, my LE6920 ran perfectly fine with Fiocchi frangible ammo.
Was that the same carbine you ran at our Winter Group Meet/Shoot?
Jay Cunningham
02-11-10, 16:24
Was that the same carbine you ran at our Winter Group Meet/Shoot?
Yes it was.
my RRA upper ran fine w/frange, for the record Dinger,mark t and myself ran winchester 55gr. frange as far as i know we had no issue.
Detmongo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040436.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040429B.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/P1040441B.jpg
my RRA upper ran fine w/frange, for the record Dinger,mark t and myself ran winchester 55gr. frange as far as i know we had no issue.
Yeah, my 416 ate it like candy. No problems at all.
Yeah, my 416 ate it like candy. No problems at all.
Not sure what the deal was with the Noveske. I'll get it working, I'd just never used it before.
I ran Winchester 55gr frangible through my two Colts with no problem.
SHIVAN, I've got about 7 mags worth of leftover frangible you can troubleshoot with.
SHIVAN, I've got about 7 mags worth of leftover frangible you can troubleshoot with.
Would love to see if the Win 55gr makes a difference at all. Maybe we can meet up next week @ NRA?
Not trying to hijack, but wondering if it's the angle of the picture or if Detmongo really is capable of carrying a Prius on his shoulder?
Not trying to hijack, but wondering if it's the angle of the picture or if Detmongo really is capable of carrying a Prius on his shoulder?
The answer to that is YES. :cool:
Jay Cunningham
02-11-10, 19:54
Not trying to hijack, but wondering if it's the angle of the picture or if Detmongo really is capable of carrying a Prius on his shoulder?
He is scary, but in a nice sort of way.
Great pictures and AAR guys, definitely my favorite part of the whole forum! :D
tim said i look mean in the photos he took but i'm a really nice guy(just ask all the bad people i run into at work in the big apple):D
ED
you should have said something a had quite a bit of winchester left over, it could have been yours.:o
tim said i look mean in the photos he took but i'm a really nice guy(just ask all the bad people i run into at work in the big apple):D
Fuggehdaboutit. :D
Actually I think I said you looked pissed. But in fact, you were just cold. :cool:
aaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy you guys are gonna give me a complex. i'll have to change my accent for next year.:cool:
Fuggehdaboutit. :D
Actually I think I said you looked pissed. But in fact, you were just cold. :cool:
He might have been pissed at Dinger for scheduling a class in February!
He might have been pissed at Dinger for scheduling a class in February!
Who wasn't? :D
i hate the fxxxxxxg cold.
Ya'll need to get the sand out--
As the Nordic folk say "no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing"
i got the sand out, i could not keep the ice out of it.:eek:
Moose-Knuckle
02-12-10, 08:29
Thanks gents for sharing what you learned with the rest of us, especially Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn's views on the modern combat handgun. I'm green with envy...:cool:
In Templar's second pic I couldn't help but notice Mr. Vickers sporting a GLOCK hat....:eek:
Thanks gents for sharing what you learned with the rest of us, especially Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn's views on the modern combat handgun. I'm green with envy...:cool:
In Templar's second pic I couldn't help but notice Mr. Vickers sporting a GLOCK hat....:eek:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/coffee.gif
Nathan_Bell
02-12-10, 10:31
i got the sand out, i could not keep the ice out of it.:eek:
Just be glad that you all were in the Carolinas and not at South Hills or Marietta this year. Think of the fun you all could have had in 2 foot of snow :p
Looks like it was a great set up.
GermanSynergy
02-12-10, 12:07
Questions about the Thompson:
How reliable/accurate was it during the course (aside from the walk back drill)?
What type of rig was the shooter running in terms of mag pouches, and how did he carry any spare 50 rd drums on his person? :cool:
Looks like one helluva gun to run in a carbine class! :)
John_Wayne777
02-12-10, 12:16
The Thompson was superbly accurate, and has about the same recoil as a 10/22. I had no problem getting hits on steel as fast as I could pull the trigger during my brief time behind it.
Questions about the Thompson:
How reliable/accurate was it during the course (aside from the walk back drill)?
What type of rig was the shooter running in terms of mag pouches, and how did he carry any spare 50 rd drums on his person? :cool:
Looks like one helluva gun to run in a carbine class! :)
Buck was using a Maxpedition bag to carry spare mags and drums.
I wasn't on his squad for TD1 or TD2, but it seemed to run just fine on TD3, but it is also an older Thompson clone, not a current production gun.
Great write up. Sounds like it was a great time!
I was actually down there the same weekend and yes the weather was tough. I went down with a few guys from my firm and we did two days of pistol stuff.
Jay Cunningham
02-12-10, 16:52
Thanks gents for sharing what you learned with the rest of us, especially Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn's views on the modern combat handgun. I'm green with envy...:cool:
In Templar's second pic I couldn't help but notice Mr. Vickers sporting a GLOCK hat....:eek:
Ken H. and LAV both made it very clear that if they were going into harm's way and could only take one handgun it would be a Glock 17.
crowkiller
02-12-10, 17:12
I noticed they talk about the 9mm and .45acp why no .40s&w? What is Ken H. and LAV opinion on the .40s&w cartridge?
Jay Cunningham
02-12-10, 17:53
I noticed they talk about the 9mm and .45acp why no .40s&w? What is Ken H. and LAV opinion on the .40s&w cartridge?
They all perform about the same in a modern JHP round. Glocks chambered in .40 are not generally recommended.
I think it had to do with the availability of 9MM ammunition and Glock mags across the globe as well.
Ken had a general disdain for the G22 and said the M&P was a better choice for .40SW. Although I am a Glock .40 user, if I wasn't so invested in Glock mags and holsters I would tend to agree with him. Starting from square one the M&P would be a good call for me.
The current Glock .40 hate train is a little overblown, though. There are a lot of them out there running hard with no issues.
as it was mentioned by Ken outside the USA it is a 9mm and a glock world. and most of the ammo you run into outside the USA is ball. i think people these days worry way to much on caliber and types of bullets rather than hitting the target(threat) and hitting them good. i'm just saying.
Robb Jensen
02-12-10, 20:21
It sucks to have missed this class. I blame friggin' Al Gore for the snow that I had to shovel and through out my back. I'm doing pretty good now.
On the 9mm vs. .40 thing. I much prefer 9mm and .45s. Since I like how the .40 Glock 22 Gen 4 feels with .40 I decided to buy one. It's running fine with no light, I'll be sure to put a lot of rounds through it with my X300 on it to see how it does.
Jay Cunningham
02-12-10, 20:32
i think people these days worry way to much on caliber and types of bullets rather than hitting the target(threat) and hitting them good. i'm just saying.
Agree.
The .40 Glock reliability issues were general observations and did not apply to the new Gen 4 as there is not enough data on them. Let's move on and keep this AAR on track.
John_Wayne777
02-12-10, 21:57
as it was mentioned by Ken outside the USA it is a 9mm and a glock world. and most of the ammo you run into outside the USA is ball. i think people these days worry way to much on caliber and types of bullets rather than hitting the target(threat) and hitting them good. i'm just saying.
Amen, brother. If everybody could shoot a handgun like you do the point would be largely moot.
Amen, brother. If everybody could shoot a handgun like you do the point would be largely moot.
thanx JW but it took alot of work training under guys like LAV and KEN to get to this level, and a decent amount of maintence to stay this way and try to get better. went out and shot today didn't do so good (blew my back out playing with the snow) so i kept it short today.:o
I noticed they talk about the 9mm and .45acp why no .40s&w? What is Ken H. and LAV opinion on the .40s&w cartridge?
That there really is no need for the .40 (as 9mm or 45 covers it).
C4
I think it had to do with the availability of 9MM ammunition and Glock mags across the globe as well.
Ken had a general disdain for the G22 and said the M&P was a better choice for .40SW. Although I am a Glock .40 user, if I wasn't so invested in Glock mags and holsters I would tend to agree with him. Starting from square one the M&P would be a good call for me.
The current Glock .40 hate train is a little overblown, though. There are a lot of them out there running hard with no issues.
Agree. As you know from the class, if you could have one pistol (overseas) the Glock 17 or 19 would be the best choice. I agree 100% with that. It is far easier to get parts for a Glock overseas than any other gun.
I think the Glock in 40 is reliable (not as much as their 9mm offerings though). Where the G40 drops off in reliability is when you attach a metal light to it. I have seen to many of them fail to think otherwise.
Good to meet you and thanks for attending.
C4
I remember in Jan 2008 in a Vickers class in N. Texas Larry stating that if you backed up truck after full of ammo to the range, the gun that would keep going longest was the HK45. And there were Glock 9mms in that class.
However, when you take ammo availablity around the world into consideration, as well as spare parts and spare magazines for the gun, the Glock 17 or 19 is a better bet.
Jay Cunningham
02-13-10, 09:34
However, when you take ammo availablity around the world into consideration, as well as spare parts and spare magazines for the gun, the Glock 17 or 19 is a better bet.
Yes, this is exactly what was said by Ken and Larry. This was 20 minutes out of three days. Let's not have the rest of this thread turn into a discussion about Glocks.
Did Ken mention min distances apart for his multi-target drills??
I don't think he did specifically, but they were about a meter apart.
TD1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/v-01-005.jpg
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Jay Cunningham
02-14-10, 13:21
Great pics Mr. Tae!
Thanks for posting them Templar.
Heavy Metal
02-14-10, 16:46
Note to self---Elbow Pads if I ever go to that range.
The_Katar: What pistol holster are you using? How is it attached? Retention devices?
Anyone know what Ken used for a pistol holster? How about Ashley?
C4iGrant: RCS M&P LC, is that a molle battle belt? Special adapter?
Ed
i think katar had a blade tech, not sure how attached to the belt. Ken had a safariland 6004 in tan.
ashley had a safariland w/ the new lock don't remember the modle number off hand
Ken had a safariland 6004 in tan.
No hood?
Guys, Ted took a ton of pics and it's going to take me a bit to sort them and load them.
Here are some more from TD1.
Eric from Daniel Defense
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/da-01-004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/da-01-005.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/e-01-302.jpg
Shivan
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/e-01-305.jpg
Grant
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/g-01-001.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/g-01-00001.jpg
Ken Hackathorn
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/ken-01-00001.jpg
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Jay Cunningham
02-15-10, 06:23
The_Katar: What pistol holster are you using? How is it attached? Retention devices?
Blade-Tech Tactical Light Holster w/DOH SR Loop (http://www.blade-tech.com/Tactical-Light-Holster-w-DOH-SR-Loop-pr-952.html)
I have it attached to my ATS War Belt Insert Belt (http://www.atstacticalgear.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=ST-2570).
The_Katar: What pistol holster are you using? How is it attached? Retention devices?
Anyone know what Ken used for a pistol holster? How about Ashley?
C4iGrant: RCS M&P LC, is that a molle battle belt? Special adapter?
I am running BFG's molle belt with a BlackHawk molle Interface that allows standard holsters to be attached. Tan holster in the pic is from Raven.
C4
Perhaps a silly question, but what's with the tape over the sights?
Perhaps a silly question, but what's with the tape over the sights?
They were doing point shooting with the carbine.
Kinda what I figured. Was it for faster time on target for an immediate threat or because of a failure of equipment?
ETA: Nevermind, re-read the first post.
They were doing point shooting with the carbine.
that's what we were doing
Perhaps a silly question, but what's with the tape over the sights?
I would ass-u-me that it was for point shooting drills... The experts will be along shortly...
it was also to show that in low light not having optics or white light that you can still get hits on target provided you've id'ed the threat as a shoot threat.
The next Vickers Tactical class at the U.S.Training Center is April 9-11, 2009.
Vickers Tactical Level-1 Pistol / Carbine Class – April 9-11, 2010 – Moyock, NC.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=40160
Two more are coming. We are just waiting for the Grey Group Training website guy to get them hot on the website.
tomalibrando
02-16-10, 19:38
I know this is late, but I was a little busy after the class. It was a great time and I really enjoyed meeting more M4C members and industry leaders. You couldn't ask for a better bunch of guys to endure bad weather with while learning at the same time. Once and a while, it's good to train in the elements just to see where you're at when things aren't optimal. It's a good gear check as well. Thanks for having us and we hope to see you in the future. Larry, it was good seeing you again and nice to finally meet Ken. Mongo, I'll see you soon
Jay Cunningham
02-16-10, 19:43
I know this is late, but I was a little busy after the class. It was a great time and I really enjoyed meeting more M4C members and industry leaders. You couldn't ask for a better bunch of guys to endure bad weather with while learning at the same time. Once and a while, it's good to train in the elements just to see where you're at when things aren't optimal. It's a good gear check as well. Thanks for having us and we hope to see you in the future. Larry, it was good seeing you again and nice to finally meet Ken. Mongo, I'll see you soon
It was nice meeting you Tom.
TD1
Mark5pt56
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/ken-01-317.jpg
Mark and Tom
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Tom and detmongo
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That is one big man....holy crap he looks bigger on film. :D
Ed, he's a big dude but a hell of a nice guy. Tom it was great to train with you,mark and doug instead of having to teach class. i think we had a great mix of people in the class, and it was nice to see everyone gel together and help each other with either advice,gear or praise.:D
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Sure looks cold and wet in those pics. Wonder who would have scheduled a class in NC in February? :D
Sure looks cold and wet in those pics. Wonder who would have scheduled a class in NC in February? :D
A complete and utter MORON! That's who. :D
C4
It all panned out for us. Everyone, especially Ken stayed focused on the task and drove on.
Hats off to that man for being there for us, dedication right there.
If anyone wonders about my thumb position-My stubbies have to go on that way to avoid hitting the slide stop. I've had to file down every slide stop on every gun I've owned. The 4th gen SW's were just a flat lever with just enough to engage the detent. I found by planting my left thumb onto the side of the t guard that it stopped me from riding it up ito the slide.
I really enjoy these classes with the wealth of knowledge relayed. LAV and Ken drove us hard and knew the threshold of learning. That's an art that isn't always practiced.
all kidding aside guys i thought it was great class w/a great group of guys and to top it off two outstanding instructors. now to the weather i would not beat dinger up at all, he actually did all of us a HUGE favor the weather forced us to training out of our comfort zones. how manyof us would have gone out on our own and trained in that kind of weather, many of us would have some reason to put it off. yet because of the class we were forced to train for hours in some pretty shitty weather. you'll never know when the fight will happen and when it does you are not going to be comfortable anyway so it's ok to train in less than ideal weather once in a while. this class was a good test of equipment, mental focus and skill, we were all pushed alittle harder than we would have pushed on our own. SO hats off to dinger great job.
p.s. i know iknow shut up FNG.:cool:
p.s. i know iknow shut up FNG.:cool:
Actually, I thought it was great. Despite the hearty ribbing I've been giving Dinger.
it really was. i'm so looking foward to next year. i wish we could do it more than once a year.
Robb Jensen
02-19-10, 14:00
Sucks that I couldn't make it this year. Looking forward to 2011.
But I did have a few of these made since I'm the founder of the "Jensen Ready", Thanks for the name LAV! :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/JensenReady1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/JensenReady3.jpg
Looks great gents - great AAR and appears the weather truly enhanced the experience. Cant beat that, talk about "training outside your comfort zone."
Sucks that I couldn't make it this year. Looking forward to 2011.
But I did have a few of these made since I'm the founder of the "Jensen Ready", Thanks for the name LAV! :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/JensenReady1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/JensenReady3.jpg
Those look great! They need to say: "Jensen Ready BITCHES!" :D
C4
Robb Jensen
02-20-10, 09:00
Those look great! They need to say: "Jensen Ready BITCHES!" :D
C4
That would be pretty funny too!
I should have one made for LAV which has Cracka Barrel !
We now have three of us working on the pictures so they should be posted very quickly now.
The start of the day II photos;
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo5.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo6.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo3.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo7.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo4.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo1.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo2.jpg
More day II photos;
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo20.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo17.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo16.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo15.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo14.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo13.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo11.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo10.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo28.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo12.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo18.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo31.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo33.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo32.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo30.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo29.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo27.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo34.jpg
More Day II:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo43.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo38.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo41.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo42.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo40.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo26.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo45.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo25.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo9.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo19.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo24.jpg
More Day II:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo23.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo22.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo21.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/Daytwo8.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo35.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo37.jpg
John_Wayne777
02-20-10, 19:44
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo27.jpg
Ted's incredible photographic skills catch the very moment when the multicam actually starts to make the individual wearing it completely disappear....
Looks like good training was had. Maybe one of these days I'll make it out of Alaska for a class or two.
SeriousStudent
02-21-10, 00:43
More Day II:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo24.jpg
Okay, that is entirely too cool. How could you not have a big grin on your face with a Thompson? :D
Jay Cunningham
02-21-10, 00:48
Some Day 3 photos... sorry if there are any dupes...
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3798.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3407.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2967.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2948.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3796.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3353.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3593.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3619.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3562.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3246.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3584.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2917.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2937.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2972.jpg
Jay Cunningham
02-21-10, 00:51
More Day 3:
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3015.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daythreephoto51.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2741.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2689.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT2760-1.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3467.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3103.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3093.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3666.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3104.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3119.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3124.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3114.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3122.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3146.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3195.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3149.jpg
Jay Cunningham
02-21-10, 00:54
And a little more Day 3:
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3319.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3208.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3148.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3169.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3335.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3339.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3344.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3378.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3375.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3470.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3473.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3545.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/w-01-001_3.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3668.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3343.jpg
More Day II:
(Mostly Vihn & Mike)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto48.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto46.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto47.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto50.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto49.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto45.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto53.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwophoto52.jpg
Do I see the new BFG Plate Carrier being sported? Looks nice, when will the be available??????
Do I see the new BFG Plate Carrier being sported? Looks nice, when will the be available??????
We're hoping to have the BFG Ten Speed PLate Carrier ready 2nd quarter.
Thanks for noticing:D
Stephen
Looks like everyone had a great time. Those pictures of the shooters sitting on the deck in the pouring down rain don't look like much fun but in real life you don't always get picture perfect weather when it's time to fight. I had an invite to this class as well (Thanks for thinking of me Ed) but due to starting a new job less than thirty days before I got my invitation, I couldn't attend. I was pissed and had thoughts about quitting since I don't like my new job very much but reality set in so no class for me. Next year for sure. Perhaps a nice day in March or April?? ;)
Looks like everyone had a great time. Those pictures of the shooters sitting on the deck in the pouring down rain don't look like much fun but in real life you don't always get picture perfect weather when it's time to fight. I had an invite to this class as well (Thanks for thinking of me Ed) but due to starting a new job less than thirty days before I got my invitation, I couldn't attend. I was pissed and had thoughts about quitting since I don't like my new job very much but reality set in so no class for me. Next year for sure. Perhaps a nice day in March or April?? ;)
We would have loved to have you there. Good training, but obviously a full time job is a little more important in the grand scheme of things. :D
We're hoping to have the BFG Ten Speed PLate Carrier ready 2nd quarter.
Thanks for noticing:D
Stephen
I remember you mentioned it in another thread on LF. I'm interested in one for sure now. That looks great. Does it have room for a plate backer?
And will it fit a 12.25" x 13" SAPI Plate?
I remember you mentioned it in another thread on LF. I'm interested in one for sure now. That looks great. Does it have room for a plate backer?
And will it fit a 12.25" x 13" SAPI Plate?
We're not releasing any info on it at this time. I'll put up an announcement in our manufacturer section when it's ready.
Thanks!
Stephen
We're not releasing any info on it at this time. I'll put up an announcement in our manufacturer section when it's ready.
Thanks!
Stephen
10-4 I'll wait for it.
Jay Cunningham
02-22-10, 20:14
some more TD 3 pics:
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1815.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1740.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1692.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2700.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2672.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2671.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2669.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2656.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2646.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2632.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2608.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2267.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2271.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2335.jpg
Jay Cunningham
02-22-10, 20:15
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2189.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2265.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1525.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1553.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1603.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1760.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1842.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1880.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1494.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1409.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1397.jpg
Jay Cunningham
02-22-10, 20:15
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2374.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2417.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2460.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2462.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2516.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2599.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2605.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1994.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2031.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2054.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2058.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2162.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2185.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2186.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD3/_MG_0105.jpg
Must have been an awesome class! Great pictures too! If I take another class I want it to be a "each shot = learning enhancement"
thing Larry is so famous for not a "lets blast our ammo" one so common today.
But those pictures of guys sitting on the muddy ground get me...standard cotton 5.11 pants SUCK big time in those
conditions, don't they? I went with RAB Event rain jacket + pants over several layers of merino wool because of such
a training experience (yep, I am a sissy who thinks cold weather sucks enough by itself but combined with rain its
terrible). Plus I tried various gloves but they seem either water resistant OR warm OR grippy but no one offers all
features combined. Had no luck with the various spray on water proofing.
Is there a class conclusion as to what gear keeps you the least miserable in cold+wet conditions?
John_Wayne777
02-23-10, 16:42
Is there a class conclusion as to what gear keeps you the least miserable in cold+wet conditions?
My North Face rain jacket was GTG. I was also wearing a polypropalene top and pants as a base layer. My cargo pants went on top of that. On the top I was wearing a insulated Wolverine jean jacket or a Carhart hooded jacket over the polypropalene, a t-shirt, and then an outer shirt of some sort. (Also body armor for some of the course) I was wearing two pairs of Rocky wool socks and leather Wolverine boots.
Most of me stayed warm and dry. I slathered my boots with waterproofer and it did a good job until the last hour of day 1. That's when the wet managed to get through my boots and started soaking into my socks. Gloves were worthless. I had some supposedly "waterproof" insulated gloves that weren't waterproof. The best I could do is swap gloves during the day to try and keep the hands dry and warm. No luck. Nothing short of neoprene would have kept the hands dry during the heavy, cold rain we were in on day 1.
Investment in more quality rain-proof cold weather gear is something I'm going to look at.
Jay Cunningham
02-23-10, 17:34
My Gore-Tex Carhartt rain jacket is GTG - nice big hood to go over cap and earpro as well. Gloves get destroyed. Waterproof Merrells are not. Multiple pairs of non-cotton socks. Warbelt style carriage is good to go over jackets. Extra lube for the weapons.
Great AAR and pics, guys.
Lots of familiar faces...
Waterproof Merrells are not.
My "Waterproof" Merrells did not do so well either. My feet got wet real quick and stayed wet until I changed shoes.
Danner and Asolo boots--good to go-sock liners and light poly's on top
Mil Gore-Tex-good to go
work issued rain pants-good to go(unk)
Dive vest
Neoprene fishing gloves-good to go
non rain days wore the Mechanix gloves and the Camelback ones-had to sew those with dental floss-they were new and blew out a seam after 10 minutes.
I'm out enough to know what keeps me warm and dry. I had my Columbia fishing suit in the car if I needed it--along with my rubber hunting boots and the old trusty Mickey Mouse boots:eek:
GTG:
Merrell Moab XCR Mid Gore-tex boots.
Asolo FSN 85 Gore Tex boots.
North Face "Patrol" HyVent jacket
Bass Pro "pac lite" Gore-Tex pants
Under Armour Cold Gear bottoms
Under Armour Cold Gear Mock turtle necks
Smart wool socks
Not GTG:
Mechanix gloves. Though I must clarify, they are great but will not protect you from the wetness. They are very good for shooting in dry weather or light rain. They suck once they get wet, but still work well to protect your hands from rocks, sharp edges etc. I keep two or three pairs on hand for shooting in the wet, and rotate. With this much water, I used all three pair, and had to go without gloves for about two hours on the end of the day.
Jay Cunningham
02-23-10, 21:26
Agree, at a certain point I simply took my gloves off.
John_Wayne777
02-24-10, 13:12
I just noticed something....
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3122.jpg
...sorta looks a bit like...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/anteater.jpg
Had no luck with the various spray on water proofing.
Is there a class conclusion as to what gear keeps you the least miserable in cold+wet conditions?
For waterproof: Gore-Tex is the way to go. Check out their website www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/home to see different level of waterproof protection. Spray on waterproofing don't work well and is not worth the investment and effort in the long run.
For base/insulation: Polartec is a very good choice for wet and cold weather to keep you warm. It doesn't hold water like cotton and will dry and wick perspiration quicker. Their website is www.polartec.com and check out the various products.
The two combination worn together will serve you well.
I just noticed something....
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/M4C%202010%20Class%20-%20TD3/_EDT3122.jpg
...sorta looks a bit like...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/anteater.jpg
Thanks for expanding my kids vocabulary. ;) And here I thought this was a family friendly forum.
What pants is Ken wearing anyway?
Mike
John_Wayne777
02-24-10, 22:13
Dude...my bad. Like a moron, I didn't consider that. Hopefully my contribution to their potential juvenile delinquency was minor at best.
Dude...my bad. Like a moron, I didn't consider that. Hopefully my contribution to their potential juvenile delinquency was minor at best.
No problem. Grade school kids have a much more colorful vocabulary.
Mike
Did anyone get a round count?
citadelshooter
02-25-10, 10:49
Anybody know what type of front sight "clamp" around that Xseries Hilliard was using on his LWRC? Pretty slick setup.
Hopefully they will be available soon, it's a custom design that is not in production.
citadelshooter
02-25-10, 20:25
Hopefully they will be available soon, it's a custom design that is not in production.
Thanks.
Okay, that is entirely too cool. How could you not have a big grin on your face with a Thompson? :D
I dig that light set-up.:)
Dinger,
I need to move back East I guess....
Soooo gentlemen, describe the 'point shooting' technique that you were using with your carbines, if you wouldn't mind.
Dinger,
I need to move back East I guess....
Soooo gentlemen, describe the 'point shooting' technique that you were using with your carbines, if you wouldn't mind.
Looking over the top of the rear sight assembly, useing the gas block / front sight assembly as a giant front sight to index with, just line up the blurry bits at 6 o'clock and press... Easy as pie...
B
Jay Cunningham
05-30-10, 10:46
Looking over the top of the rear sight assembly, useing the gas block / front sight assembly as a giant front sight to index with, just line up the blurry bits at 6 o'clock and press... Easy as pie...
B
Especially with a Thompson... ;)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo34.jpg
When is this plate carrier coming to market?
Six Feet Under
06-06-10, 23:07
Pics are good, looks like it was a fun time. :D
I haven't gone shooting in wet and cold weather, just cold... and blistering hot. I can sympathize with the misery it causes though; I went camping with my dad last May and even though it was only 70 degrees, the two days straight of rain and NOWHERE to get dry except in the truck or the shower house sucked. I decided right then and there I was never doing anything in foul weather again without appropriate clothing.
GermanSynergy
06-07-10, 16:24
When is this plate carrier coming to market?
Is that the Mayflower carrier?
This looks like a fantastic class. Top-notch instruction, top-notch facility and training conditions that test both skills and gear (:cool: ) Thanks for sharing all the pics!
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