View Full Version : LEOs....Questions on enforcement of travel restrictions.
With the recent winter storms, I've seen numerous stories about declarations of "state of emergency" and "travel restictions". I noiced one from Indiana (see below). I thought of a couple of questions about these situations. Can the local or other government really "prohibit" travel? If so, what type of enforcment punishment can occur? On the face of it, I understand the intention - keep Joe Schmoe from driving his civic into the blizzard necessitating a rescue. Admirably, and likely to be the case with folks like Joe. But would a local, county, or state officer actually arrest me for traveling in poor conditions in my Dodge 2500? (See Level 3 Restriction from the article below) It mentions motorists, but it would seem obvoius this mode of transportation would be preferable to more "pedestrian" means...pun intended.
Very curious what our local LEO's have to say about this, how would or have they handled this..and for the record, I wouldn't have an issue with an officer giving me a respectful "suggestion" to not be out and about (some on here will disagree), I really do understand the frustration with saving idiots from themselves. I just don't understand how an individual can be "prohibited" from traveling by the authorities under penalty of law.
http://www.pal-item.com/article/20100210/NEWS01/2100322
FTA:
Level 1 - Travel warning in which hazardous driving conditions exist, resulting in the need for extra caution. No restrictions are imposed.
Level 2 - Essential travel only because road conditions pose a significant threat to motor vehicle operation. Drivers may travel to and from work and to obtain safe shelter, essential medical care or medical supplies, and essential food or fuel.
Level 3 - Travel is prohibited because conditions place motorists at great risk of injury or even death. A declaration of this emergency classification represents an extreme emergency situation of disaster proportions
ThirdWatcher
02-10-10, 21:23
I'm not familiar with the situation back there, but it is not uncommon to close highways during heavy snow storms out west.
My biggest issue is when Joe Citizen wrecks while driving to the local gas station to pick up his cigarettes, I'm risking my neck to respond for his ignorance.
tracker722
02-11-10, 14:44
To the best of my knowledge, you travel at your own risk. However, if you pass a barricade stating the road is closed, I may ticket you or take you into custody for "failure to obey traffic instructions".
My biggest issue is when Joe Citizen wrecks while driving to the local gas station to pick up his cigarettes, I'm risking my neck to respond for his ignorance.
My biggest problem is Gov't Employees who wish to restrict my freedoms because it would make their job safer or easier... because they KNOW BETTER than "Joe Citizen".
tracker722
02-11-10, 15:01
If people want to risk their life because they think they know what is better for them, I'm all for it. In the long run, it only strengthens the gene pool.
Of course, you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater either. First Amendment rights can't be argued there.
My biggest problem is Gov't Employees who wish to restrict my freedoms because it would make their job safer or easier... because they KNOW BETTER than "Joe Citizen".
It's called common sense, if the roads are hazardous and a Level 3 warning is in effect, stay off the roads. Very simple concept.
Heavy Metal
02-11-10, 15:08
If people want to risk their life because they think they know what is better for them, I'm all for it. In the long run, it only strengthens the gene pool.
Of course, you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater either. First Amendment rights can't be argued there.
You absolutely can yell fire in a crowded theatre. Provided the Theatre is actually on fire.
Heavy Metal
02-11-10, 15:10
My biggest problem is Gov't Employees who wish to restrict my freedoms because it would make their job safer or easier... because they KNOW BETTER than "Joe Citizen".
What happens when you wreck and block the road? What happens when the ambulance carrying your neighbor to the CCU can't get by?
tracker722
02-11-10, 15:11
You absolutely can yell fire in a crowded theatre. Provided the Theatre is actually on fire.
Dude, I stand corrected. My bad.:D
Preferred User
02-11-10, 16:37
INDOT (http://www.in.gov/indot/2351.htm) is now responsible for road condition reporting. That information is then posted on the Indiana Department of Homeland Security web site (http://www.in.gov/dhs/files/travel-advisory-map/).
Most Indiana counties have their own penalties for violations:
Tippecanoe County
The fine for a first offense under Section 8 of this Chapter is a fine of $50. Subsequent fines shall be not less than $100 and not more than $2,500.
The problem with declaring states of emergency is when things like banning the carrying of firearms, the possession and sale of, as well as banning ammunition sales and the consumption of alcohol comes about due to a few inches of snow in King, NC. I was going to start a separate thread but it runs along the same lines as this one.
http://www.wxii12.com/news/22487153/detail.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-2698-Charlotte-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d9-King-NC-misuses-riot-law-to-ban-guns-and-ammunition
http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d8-Six-inches-from-slavery#
GermanSynergy
02-11-10, 18:01
The problem with declaring states of emergency is when things like banning the carrying of firearms, the possession and sale of, as well as banning ammunition sales and the consumption of alcohol comes about due to a few inches of snow in King, NC. I was going to start a separate thread but it runs along the same lines as this one.
http://www.wxii12.com/news/22487153/detail.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-2698-Charlotte-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d9-King-NC-misuses-riot-law-to-ban-guns-and-ammunition
http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d8-Six-inches-from-slavery#
I hope the NRA and the N.C state equivalent bring the mother of all lawsuits against the fascists that passed this unconstitutional decree. :mad:
Alpha Sierra
02-11-10, 19:32
When and if I decide I need to travel, no proclamation is going to stop me. And I will travel armed. Always do, always will.
i have a card issued to me by my agency that allows me on the road at any time...
the fed's take care of us:p
I've always said that the hardest job in the world is being a MOM and the 2nd hardest job is being a LEO. I respect them almost as much as Mothers;)
I also am not advocating foolish or reckless behavior that violates common sense.
I just find a pervasive attitude that infects many Gov employees that Joe Citizens are a "lesser being" than they are and thus stupid and need babysitting. We had at my CCW class the Medical Examiner (a Fire Fighter) would come in and give a speech that you should not defend your home or property lest you end up on his table. It was a condescending, scare tactic by an anti-gunner who gave a very dramatic, emotional speech of "I know" and "you don't" and that it was some how harmful to him to have to perform ME work, so "retreat" and let the bad guys win. Maybe I'm just being over sensitive this week (and my wife is a Fed) ;) God Bless our LEOs and keep them safe!
Alpha Sierra
02-12-10, 05:48
i have a card issued to me by my agency that allows me on the road at any time...
the fed's take care of us:p
Nice................:rolleyes:
I apoligize If I sounded pervasive, I was not referring to the population as an ambiguous "Joe Citizen" I actually had to go respond to an individual who rolled his truck into a ditch. We were in a level 3 emergency due to rain/ snow/ sleet/ ice slush we had over the weekend. I replaced his name with Joe Citizen to protect the innocent:D I asked the individual why he was out at 330 AM in the middle of us getting dumped on by good ol mother nature and he responded that he needed cigarettes.
Sounds like I would've walked out of that speech.
We had at my CCW class the Medical Examiner (a Fire Fighter) would come in and give a speech that you should not defend your home or property lest you end up on his table. It was a condescending, scare tactic by an anti-gunner who gave a very dramatic, emotional speech of "I know" and "you don't" and that it was some how harmful to him to have to perform ME work, so "retreat" and let the bad guys win.
Nice................:rolleyes:
my job requires me at times to be on the road when others aren't as an issue of national security when needed...:rolleyes:
My biggest problem is Gov't Employees who wish to restrict my freedoms because it would make their job safer or easier... because they KNOW BETTER than "Joe Citizen".
I agree with your sentiment. In this case, though, sometimes they guys calling the shots might know something others don't.
Road closures are easily enforceable. Some assign a criminal penalty for driving on closed roads. Others may assess a civil penalty for recovery of expenses for your rescue should you get stuck. Some do both.
The rub is that someone will have to be out there to intercept you. So if you went anyway and arrived safely, you will probably get away with it.
Sounds like I would've walked out of that speech.
I actually wanted to stand up and give a speech on some things are worth fighting for and are meant to be fought for, blah, blah, blah... but I was just sitting there imagining getting in a shooting and having that guy testifying how I had stood up and ranted about wanting to shoot people... you get the jist... and decided to get my CCW and go home.
I actually thought about you during the Olympics when the P&G commercial came on honoring MOMs and made wish it would be followed by a commercial honoring LEOs & Military...
God Bless You and be safe out there!
I actually wanted to stand up and give a speech on some things are worth fighting for and are meant to be fought for, blah, blah, blah... but I was just sitting there imagining getting in a shooting and having that guy testifying how I had stood up and ranted about wanting to shoot people... you get the jist... and decided to get my CCW and go home.
I actually thought about you during the Olympics when the P&G commercial came on honoring MOMs and made wish it would be followed by a commercial honoring LEOs & Military...
God Bless You and be safe out there!
Well thank you:D
LockenLoad
02-13-10, 17:53
I've always said that the hardest job in the world is being a MOM and the 2nd hardest job is being a LEO. I respect them almost as much as Mothers;)
I also am not advocating foolish or reckless behavior that violates common sense.
I just find a pervasive attitude that infects many Gov employees that Joe Citizens are a "lesser being" than they are and thus stupid and need babysitting. We had at my CCW class the Medical Examiner (a Fire Fighter) would come in and give a speech that you should not defend your home or property lest you end up on his table. It was a condescending, scare tactic by an anti-gunner who gave a very dramatic, emotional speech of "I know" and "you don't" and that it was some how harmful to him to have to perform ME work, so "retreat" and let the bad guys win. Maybe I'm just being over sensitive this week (and my wife is a Fed) ;) God Bless our LEOs and keep them safe!
Their are a lot of us who like to think and do for themselves, but Katrina proved there are a lot of idiots who need RAILROAD SPIKE to the head to get the point a level 5 Hurricane is coming at your bath tub in a lake city and you need to leave.
Collegefour
02-13-10, 21:19
In Colorado, we make it pretty simple. We close these big ass gates across the road. You can't really get by them, even in a 4x4. But if you somehow manage to, you'd best get where you're going, cause if you don't, you can sit there and wait until conditions improve to be rescued. And if you don't make it, well, you can't say you weren't warned. MOST people take us very seriously in this state when they are told that the road is closed.
BTW, sometimes the road is closed due to massive wrecks or avalanches, so good luck trying to get your awesome 4x4 through THAT.
I hope the NRA and the N.C state equivalent bring the mother of all lawsuits against the fascists that passed this unconstitutional decree. :mad:
Those laws are in my county in NY too, and probably yours, you can thank post 9/11 frenzy for them.
Those laws are in my county in NY too, and probably yours, you can thank post 9/11 frenzy for them.
Those laws are 40 years old according to one of the articles I read.
Those laws are 40 years old according to one of the articles I read.
The law in my town was passed post 9/11. I was assuming yours might have been too. But considering 40 years ago, I could see how violating our civil rights was in the Gov's interest then too.
My biggest problem is Gov't Employees who wish to restrict my freedoms because it would make their job safer or easier... because they KNOW BETTER than "Joe Citizen".
I know better than Joe Citizen. So stay off of the damn road. Simple.
I will say this... Sometimes common sense is just lacking. Better to pigeon hole the general poulation than make it a case by case matter...
Example: I work security for a small private community. We are more hilly, wooded, and removed from the actual town. During our last very minor snow storm, several HUNDRED people abandoned their cars in the middle of the road. Yes folks, the middle of the ****ing road. These people should not drive. I encountered several (mostly men) people who got stuck, got pulled out (by me) and PROMPTLY put their damn car in the same damn ditch. This is not fun, smart, safe, or practical.
Some people need to be told "don't drive when it's like this." If you are not one of those people, well... Maybe you should re-think your choice.
If I, for some reason, decided to drive in the conditions the eastern states are dealing with, and I didn't make it, and I was told that I probably wouldn't... Well... If I killed/injured an LEO/EMS person because of my stupidity, well...
The truth is, state/government agencies tell us what to do all the time. Go ahead and fight the system, but realize that it's an uphill battle. Sometimes they DO know better than us.
Alpha Sierra
02-14-10, 09:06
I know better than Joe Citizen. So stay off of the damn road. Simple.
It is guys like you that make it easy to have disrespect for government and law enforcement.
Alpha Sierra
02-14-10, 09:07
my job requires me at times to be on the road when others aren't as an issue of national security when needed...:rolleyes:
Yeah, whatever...........
John_Wayne777
02-14-10, 10:36
Lately there has been a rash of threads that get stupid surrounding the general topic of law enforcement. My patience with them is at an end. Again: M4C is not the place to air grievances with law enforcement or the military.
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