View Full Version : Couple Busted for Refusing to Pay Tip
I don't think I saw this on the forum last week. How does everyone feel about gratuities? I believe they should be earned and that gratuities reward those people who go above and beyond in the service industry. I do not believe that they should be mandatory. Mandatory gratuities are rather presumptuous and the proprietor is pretty much guaranteeing excellent services.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1
If you’re frustrated by poor service at a restaurant, think twice before you decide to not tip. You may be in for a bit more than just a dirty look from the waiter.
"Nobody, nobody wants to be forced to pay a tip or be arrested for terrible service," Leslie Pope said when her happy hour ended in handcuffs.
Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 percent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends.
Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.
“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said.
After the $73 bill came, the group paid for food, drinks, and tax but refused to pay the tip. After explaining the bad service to the bartender in charge, Pope claimed he took their money and called police. The couple was handcuffed and placed in the back of a police car.
“I understand that, you know, we didn’t pay the gratuity, but it was a gratuity, it wasn’t something that was required,” said Wagner.
The owner admitted that the group waited unusually long for their food, but said the pub was extremely busy that night. He said managers offered to comp the food, a claim the couple denies ever happened.
“Obviously we would have liked for the patron and the establishment to have worked this out without getting the police involved,” said Deputy Police Commissioner Stuart Bedics.
Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill. However, it is doubtful that the charges will hold up in front of a judge. The couple is scheduled to appear in court next month.
ooh - I see a congressional debate on the the "tip" bill. The restaurant union(SEIU) will start pouring funds into reps/senators who support it and candidates running agains ones who dont. black panters will appear outside of voting locations to intimidate voters...
Gutshot John
02-12-10, 22:01
If you're a party of more than six..."tips" are mandatory for a reason at that point it becomes a service fee.
If the service is that shitty than you ask to speak to a manager.
That said if you're in a party of one and you don't have enough money for 15% than you don't have enough money to eat out and should stay home and cook.
Big boy rules.
That said if you're in a party of one and you don't have enough money for 15% than you don't have enough money to eat out and should stay home and cook.
Big boy rules.
Big boy rules my ass. If it's just me and a friend and the serice sucks, then no tip. The whole big boy rules works in reverse too. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but here in Olahoma the waiters and waitress's only make like 3.35 an hour and the tips are expected to make up the rest. They know damn well that their wages are tip dependent. Also, I used to date a waitress and she was a nazi about tipping at least 20%, but if the service sucked then you wouldn't get jack from her.
He said managers offered to comp the food, a claim the couple denies ever happened.
Why would they pay for food if they were offered it for free? I call bullshit.
parishioner
02-12-10, 22:52
Mr. Pink's take on tips. I tend to agree but I usually tip as long as the service isn't bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38
As I get older and more financially sound, I find myself tipping more generously. I've reached the point where, typically, I tip about 20%
HOWEVER, if the service is bad, or the food is lousy, I'll tip whatever I feel is appropriate. Once or twice in the last six months I've tipped less than 10%; and I can remember probably the worst meal and service I've ever received where I just pulled out a handful of change and left it on the table...
Regards,
Kevin
they entered into a legally binding contract.. they knew an 18% gratuity would be added, and agreed to pay by sitting down and ordering food and drinks.
on the flip side of that, it's a civil contract, and therefor a civil matter. breech of contracts are almost never "crimes," and the police erred big time by getting involved. that could easily become a section 1982 for the responding agency. there are SCOTUS decisions on this very topic (i no longer have access to lexus nexus, so find them yourself).
as far as voluntary tipping goes, i'm partial to a $0.03 tip for REALLY shitty service.. otherwise, i tip between 15 and 20, service depending. if the server really went out of her way, then the sky is the limit. i've tipped 100% plenty of times, final bill depending. they work hard and deal with a lot of assholes, and depend on the tips. plus, its an extremely established custom... i can't believe some people simply dont tip.. like my mother-in-law.
If you're a party of more than six..."tips" are mandatory for a reason at that point it becomes a service fee.
If the service is that shitty than you ask to speak to a manager.
That said if you're in a party of one and you don't have enough money for 15% than you don't have enough money to eat out and should stay home and cook.
Big boy rules.
I always tip a small amount, even if the service was terrible. I worked through school on tips and other shitty jobs, its no fun to have a bad night get ruined by customers who might end up making the job difficult. Parties over 6-7 were generally more difficult because they are small enough to think their stuff should still be done instantly. Parties of that size are a loss to the restaurant, thus the mandatory tip. Parties over 20 are accepting, so its not an issue. If I go out with enough people to have this rule go into effect, the tip and time to get food generally doesn't matter, so I don't see the issue with the people. Enjoy your friends and the ability to go out and do so.
Big boy rules definitely apply here.
The servers do have a rough job, and get the blamed for everything that goes wrong. If the food is cooked wrong you really cant blame the server, and if they get it taken care of quickly, or get it comped I will tip them better. But if it is the server that screwed up, the tip goes down, like not filling drinks, never coming back, forgetting stuff.
They are getting paid to serve you, if I want to get my own food and drinks I can go to a fast food place, and even some of them serve you now.
If you're a party of more than six..."tips" are mandatory for a reason at that point it becomes a service fee.
If the service is that shitty than you ask to speak to a manager.
That said if you're in a party of one and you don't have enough money for 15% than you don't have enough money to eat out and should stay home and cook.
Big boy rules.
I disagree also. I think tipping is way for restaurant owners to extort money from their patrons to pay their employees. Why is it you have to tip at the outback, but not tip at burger king?
I am not a business owner, but if I eat at the local dive for breakfast, I pay $7.99 for 2 eggs, 2 bacon, one pancake and one piece of toast, not to mention $1.09 for a coffee. Plus a tip? :rolleyes:
I can go to burger king, get a double croissanwich (2 eggs, 4 bacon, hash browns and coffee) for $4.99
Only reason I tip is for good service, if you don't refill my drink, never come over to see how I am doing, things the server is responsiable for, then no tip. Now if the cook makes me a chicken sandwich and I ordered a steak, that is not the fault of the server if they sent the order in correctly and I tell them, the tip is for you, not the cook.
Parties of that size are a loss to the restaurant
How does the restaurant lose money on a party?
The mandatory tip saves the server from getting screwed when they spend all night with one table, instead of many tables where their tips will average out even if one table tips bad.
Six people and a $73 dollar tab? Where were they? Burger King?
Six people and a $73 dollar tab? Where were they? Burger King?
Might have been a larger bill if the server came to take more drink orders.
The charges were dropped in NOV/09.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Theft-Charges-Dropped-Against-No-Tip-Couple--71865807.html
gratuity - 3 dictionary results (I left the British war veterans one out)
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gra⋅tu⋅i⋅ty [gruh-too-i-tee, -tyoo-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1. a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.
2. something given without claim or demand.
------
Even is the restaurant adds it in to the bill I still have the right to refuse it. A Gratuity is a GIFT or something given without claim or demand.
Having said that, I usually tip at least 20% as long as the service was at least half way decent. My wife worked as a waitress waiting for her RN license in the US and I had lost my job so we are understanding of the plight of wait staff.
I once threatened to reduce or remove the gratuity (party greater than 6) at a restaurant in Vermont after they gave me a really really hard time about a simple request -- put the guacamole on the side or on a small separate dish -- this was 9 years ago so I forget the exact details -- on our huge expensive nachos plate -- but they did it so I gave them their 18% or whatever it was.
The funny thing is, these places that add it to the bill, are causing their wait staff to lose tips with me since I normally tip about 20% but if it is on the bill then that is all they get.
(I take 20% of the bill before any sales tax, and then round up to the nearest dollar or half dollar, on average. Sometimes I will take a little bit more, 22% or 25% if the service is outstanding)
NinjaMedic
02-13-10, 02:52
Was it posted prominently anywhere that there was mandatory gratuity added? Isnt that called a cover charge?
Usually printed in the menu.
I disagree also. I think tipping is way for restaurant owners to extort money from their patrons to pay their employees. Why is it you have to tip at the outback, but not tip at burger king?
I am not a business owner, but if I eat at the local dive for breakfast, I pay $7.99 for 2 eggs, 2 bacon, one pancake and one piece of toast, not to mention $1.09 for a coffee. Plus a tip? :rolleyes:
I can go to burger king, get a double croissanwich (2 eggs, 4 bacon, hash browns and coffee) for $4.99
Only reason I tip is for good service, if you don't refill my drink, never come over to see how I am doing, things the server is responsiable for, then no tip. Now if the cook makes me a chicken sandwich and I ordered a steak, that is not the fault of the server if they sent the order in correctly and I tell them, the tip is for you, not the cook.
You're a ****ing idiot.
ThirdWatcher
02-13-10, 04:38
... on the flip side of that, it's a civil contract, and therefor a civil matter. breech of contracts are almost never "crimes," and the police erred big time by getting involved. that could easily become a section 1982 for the responding agency.
This is the kind of case I would have forwarded to the prosecutor to review for possible charges.
Varying levels of average service:15-20% Or $5 whichever is more. ( I get this 95% of the time I eat out and am perfectly satisfied with it)
Great service: Considerably more. I'm a big tip guy when the service is over and beyond what I'm accustomed too. I absolutely make sure to inform management of my experience. Most contacts I assume must be bad as generally people love to complain yet hate to compliment.
Poor service: No tip. AFTER and only after I pay my bill, I absolutely make sure to inform management in a professional manner. Generally I preface it with: "I've already paid my bill so please understand the meaning of this complaint as my attempt to help your establishment and not a desire for free shit. I will not accept gifts. I've observed managers be more receptive, at least on the surface, with this approach.
People who complain before paying for the food they ate are assholes. Period.
How about takeout? Are you guys tipping when you pick up your food say at a pizza place or coffee shop?
How about takeout? Are you guys tipping when you pick up your food say at a pizza place or coffee shop?
There are alot of places that fall into the "should I tip" category.
Hardees/Carl jrs- they bring the food to your table.
Sonic- rollerskaters bring your food to your car
Had a big debate about this one time at the fire department, went to Outback for PICK UP, called the order in, the bartender just grabbed our bags of food and charged us. Does she deserve a tip? same tip that you would give if she got you a drink, or a tip on the value of what she handed you?
How does the restaurant lose money on a party?
The mandatory tip saves the server from getting screwed when they spend all night with one table, instead of many tables where their tips will average out even if one table tips bad.
They lose money because the groups of that size are slower to serve, they talk more and are slower to leave, and they generally dont spend as much. Parties of two spend the most, eat the quickest and will often have more courses. Next time you are out, see how much effort is put into seating two tops rather than small groups.
EzGoingKev
02-13-10, 08:37
I worked through school on tips and other shitty jobs, its no fun to have a bad night get ruined by customers who might end up making the job difficult.
Some people do not go out all that often and it also sucks to have your time ruined by a shitty server that doesn't care.
I would say 75% of the servers out there do a decent job. There are some that are clueless and would do a shitty job no matter what they were doing. I would eat out all the time with customers and would constantly be at the same restaurants. There were servers I would ask for by name and there were servers I would refuse to deal with.
I tip well but do consider the tip as a reflection of the service. If someone is constantly getting poor tips they should stop and figure out what they are doing wrong.
If someone is constantly getting poor tips they should stop and figure out what they are doing wrong.
agree 100%
They lose money because the groups of that size are slower to serve, they talk more and are slower to leave, and they generally dont spend as much. Parties of two spend the most, eat the quickest and will often have more courses. Next time you are out, see how much effort is put into seating two tops rather than small groups.
How can they be slower to serve, YOU ARE SERVING THEM. They might be slower to leave but unless you are in a packed restaurant with no open seats it will not cost much. I do not see how party size determines how much each person eats, for the most part each person will eat an entree, you are saying that a 2 top will order more than 2 entrees? If they leave the quickest that means they order less drinks and if you say drinks (alcohol drinks) are not a huge part of the income you have no clue. I do not see how 2 people can order more than 4 groups of 2 at a table of 8.
How can they be slower to serve, YOU ARE SERVING THEM. They might be slower to leave but unless you are in a packed restaurant with no open seats it will not cost much. I do not see how party size determines how much each person eats, for the most part each person will eat an entree, you are saying that a 2 top will order more than 2 entrees? If they leave the quickest that means they order less drinks and if you say drinks (alcohol drinks) are not a huge part of the income you have no clue. I do not see how 2 people can order more than 4 groups of 2 at a table of 8.
correction, slower to order, eat, pay, and leave... social groups tend to take longer at everything
How can they be slower to serve, YOU ARE SERVING THEM. They might be slower to leave but unless you are in a packed restaurant with no open seats it will not cost much. I do not see how party size determines how much each person eats, for the most part each person will eat an entree, you are saying that a 2 top will order more than 2 entrees? If they leave the quickest that means they order less drinks and if you say drinks (alcohol drinks) are not a huge part of the income you have no clue. I do not see how 2 people can order more than 4 groups of 2 at a table of 8.
The real problem with medium sized groups, especially college students, is they tend to be cheap. The bill comes and they all throw in the cost of what they ordered, neglecting the tax and tip. Then the guy left to collect the money ends up short tax and tip and tells everyone to cough up some more. At which point they all start arguing about how paid for what and maybe cough up an extra buck or two. At the end, the tip gets shorted because that's all the money there is and the guilty parties have already left.
The worst, absolute worst, are groups of older housewives. They want to divide the check to the penny and spend no more than what they ate/drank. Then there are all the math challenged people who can't calculate a tip...
So the solution is separate checks, which is a pain for groups and makes life more difficult for the wait staff.
All of this stuff feeds into the reason for the mandatory gratuity for parties of 6 or more.
Or do what I like to do - split the total bill/tip evenly between all parties. Cheapskates don't like this because they argue that "he had an extra drink and I didn't", or "he ordered a more expensive entree!". Agreeing to split the bill in advance means ordering what you want because you want it and not worrying about everyone else. Best times I've had are with people who were more concerned about having a good time than worrying about splitting the bill "fairly". In the end it will all even out, and if it doesn't it's probably only a few bucks one way or the other.
We used to frequent a Mexican Restaurant that added an 18% tip to the bill regardless of the size of the party. I thought this was unusual, but the service at this restaurant was normally very good. One day it was not, and myself and my co-worker refused to pay the tip. We talked to the manager, he said it was mandatory, and threatened to call the police. I said go ahead, right after my co-worker and I showed him our badges and ID cards :). He backed down, and I told him that poor service should not be rewarded.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
The real problem with medium sized groups, especially college students, is they tend to be cheap. The bill comes and they all throw in the cost of what they ordered, neglecting the tax and tip. Then the guy left to collect the money ends up short tax and tip and tells everyone to cough up some more. At which point they all start arguing about how paid for what and maybe cough up an extra buck or two. At the end, the tip gets shorted because that's all the money there is and the guilty parties have already left.
The worst, absolute worst, are groups of older housewives. They want to divide the check to the penny and spend no more than what they ate/drank. Then there are all the math challenged people who can't calculate a tip...
So the solution is separate checks, which is a pain for groups and makes life more difficult for the wait staff.
All of this stuff feeds into the reason for the mandatory gratuity for parties of 6 or more.
Or do what I like to do - split the total bill/tip evenly between all parties. Cheapskates don't like this because they argue that "he had an extra drink and I didn't", or "he ordered a more expensive entree!". Agreeing to split the bill in advance means ordering what you want because you want it and not worrying about everyone else. Best times I've had are with people who were more concerned about having a good time than worrying about splitting the bill "fairly". In the end it will all even out, and if it doesn't it's probably only a few bucks one way or the other.
It was more so the people who were meeting to eat then hit the bars on the weekends. They take their time and dont drink much with dinner. The ones who meet for dinner and drinks at the place are fine, but the places I worked at weren't that type of place. Groups of old people were near evil, they didnt understand that the servers needed tips at all, and often times left only the change.
The real problem with medium sized groups, especially college students, is they tend to be cheap. The bill comes and they all throw in the cost of what they ordered, neglecting the tax and tip. Then the guy left to collect the money ends up short tax and tip and tells everyone to cough up some more. At which point they all start arguing about how paid for what and maybe cough up an extra buck or two. At the end, the tip gets shorted because that's all the money there is and the guilty parties have already left.
The worst, absolute worst, are groups of older housewives. They want to divide the check to the penny and spend no more than what they ate/drank. Then there are all the math challenged people who can't calculate a tip...
So the solution is separate checks, which is a pain for groups and makes life more difficult for the wait staff.
All of this stuff feeds into the reason for the mandatory gratuity for parties of 6 or more.
Or do what I like to do - split the total bill/tip evenly between all parties. Cheapskates don't like this because they argue that "he had an extra drink and I didn't", or "he ordered a more expensive entree!". Agreeing to split the bill in advance means ordering what you want because you want it and not worrying about everyone else. Best times I've had are with people who were more concerned about having a good time than worrying about splitting the bill "fairly". In the end it will all even out, and if it doesn't it's probably only a few bucks one way or the other.
All of this sounds like a good reason why there's a mandatory tip percentage on large parties. I've never objected to paying a mandatory tip on a large party bill, and, frequently, will kick in a little extra if the service is good.
I have also, after paying a mandatory tip and not a penny more, talked with a restaurant manager and detailed the poor service that drove it, and calmly informed the manager that I'd wouldn't be frequenting their restaurant again.
There are simply too many places to eat to continue to give my hard earned money to a place where I get bad food or bad service...
Regards,
Kevin
Or do what I like to do - split the total bill/tip evenly between all parties. Cheapskates don't like this because they argue that "he had an extra drink and I didn't", or "he ordered a more expensive entree!". Agreeing to split the bill in advance means ordering what you want because you want it and not worrying about everyone else. Best times I've had are with people who were more concerned about having a good time than worrying about splitting the bill "fairly". In the end it will all even out, and if it doesn't it's probably only a few bucks one way or the other.
Reply With Quote
I have dealt with this plenty of times, and the people that are for this ARE the ones that drink the most and order the most expensive stuff on the menu. They justify it to themselves thinking that everyone could have ordered the same thing and ordered 25 drinks for themselves. They are also the ones that bitch when people realize what they are doing and also run the bill up, then they are the ones complaining to the manager.
Pay your own ****ing bill.
I have dealt with this plenty of times, and the people that are for this ARE the ones that drink the most and order the most expensive stuff on the menu. They justify it to themselves thinking that everyone could have ordered the same thing and ordered 25 drinks for themselves. They are also the ones that bitch when people realize what they are doing and also run the bill up, then they are the ones complaining to the manager.
Pay your own ****ing bill.
I don't order the most expensive thing, or an excessive number of drinks. Usually it's just a succession of rounds for the table. Sometimes it's easier if one person picks up the whole tab, and then the next time the other person takes it.
Maybe you're just hanging out with the wrong people. Life's to short to spend your time dining with assholes, or cheapskates.
I don't order the most expensive thing, or an excessive number of drinks. Usually it's just a succession of rounds for the table. Sometimes it's easier if one person picks up the whole tab, and then the next time the other person takes it.
Maybe you're just hanging out with the wrong people. Life's to short to spend your time dining with assholes, or cheapskates.
Well that is totally different than your first scenario. Can not compare buying a round of drinks to people ordering food. Just from you calling people "cheapskates"and assholes" there has obviously been a problem and I doubt it was from 1 extra drink someone had. You must think you are on the Obama plan for going out to eat, but since you are losing friends over it and still cant see the problem you never will. I spend my time with people that do not mind paying for what they ate and drank.
If you think it is too hard to ask a server to buy a round of drinks and that you will take care of it, you either should not buy a round or man up and pay for it.
Well that is totally different than your first scenario. Can not compare buying a round of drinks to people ordering food. Just from you calling people "cheapskates"and assholes" there has obviously been a problem and I doubt it was from 1 extra drink someone had. You must think you are on the Obama plan for going out to eat, but since you are losing friends over it and still cant see the problem you never will. I spend my time with people that do not mind paying for what they ate and drank.
If you think it is too hard to ask a server to buy a round of drinks and that you will take care of it, you either should not buy a round or man up and pay for it.
WTF? The drinks comment was in relation to drinks ordered during the meal that show up the final bill. Buying rounds in a bar for cash, or on a tab is a different thing altogether.
Where did I say I was losing friends over this? You are reading way too much into this and making shit up out of thin air to back up your point.
I have had no problems AT ALL in situations with people splitting a check equally. Usually it's been with highly educated (and well-paid) professionals who have better things to do than argue about a few bucks one way or the other on a check. Try splitting an $800 bill between 10 people line by line, when appetizers and desserts were split and shared. Try splitting a $2000 bill between 30 people line by line at a fine Steakhouse that won't do separate checks for large parties because it's a waste of their time.
Never, had a problem with one person ordering overly expensive stuff and too many drinks because I don't hang out with assholes who behave like that. As I said life's too short to hang out with assholes. And no one has bitched about not getting their money's worth. As I said, it all tends to even out in the end. Obama plan? Please. That would mean taking from the others without their consent! If everyone agrees to split evenly to make things simple, that's their choice.
If you've had problems with people acting boorishly as you described and then complaining to the manager (on what basis I don't know) and trying to freeload off of others, then you are hanging out with the wrong people.
Some people prefer separate checks, and that's OK with me if that's what they want. I have some in-laws that are really cheap - down to ordering Coke's with no ice (to get more Coke) and stupid shit like that - so we always get separate checks. But they are family and otherwise tolerable.
You have never had a problem yet
Cheapskates don't like this because they argue that "he had an extra drink and I didn't", or "he ordered a more expensive entree!".
You brought it up out of the blue, no one else said anything about it. As far as your highly educated friends that enjoy it, I call bullshit. If there was never and issue you would not have taken the time to type it, I think the highly educated friends did the math and figured out you were ****ing them on the bill.
Outlived it's usefulness...
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