View Full Version : Best 9mm round performance
nipplehead
02-14-10, 09:35
Since we have a nice long thread on the best 9mm handgun...with lots of thoughtful res ponces. I thought it would be equally important to discuss 9mm terminal performance. Which round do you carry for self defense? Which is most effective...124grain vs148 grain or even 115 hyper velocity. Currently I have been carrying 148 grain HST..come to find out one of my pistols is not suited for that round looking for alternatives for that pistol (P7).
But I have other 9mm pistols that are fine with the heavier bullet Should I consider a change for all my9mm pistols?
Business_Casual
02-14-10, 09:41
We also have a nice long forum called "Terminal Ballistic Information" where this topic is extensively covered. It might be best for you to check those threads.
M_P
Check this out:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
I like Speer GD 124gr+P, or Fed Tac Bonded 135gr+P.
I understand the P7 is "iconic" to some, but if it doesnt reliably feed everything what good is it? I think you either get it tweaked to use the 147gr load all your other pistols work with, or get rid of it for another 9mm that will work with it. I put more value in a gun thats eats everything I feed it.
I use the standard pressure Federal 147gr HST ammo in my fullsize S&W M&P pistol. It feeds reliably and is accurate.
nipplehead
02-14-10, 12:02
I understand the P7 is "iconic" to some, but if it doesnt reliably feed everything what good is it? I think you either get it tweaked to use the 147gr load all your other pistols work with, or get rid of it for another 9mm that will work with it. I put more value in a gun thats eats everything I feed it.
Mine works fine and feeds every thing I gave it. How ever HK experts recommend not using 147 grain bullets http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119413
If the gun gets out of spec (piston) or the mag springs are worn a issue can develope that otherwise would not with different ammo...I would never part with the 2 P7 s I have..its an awesome gun..Its not my main carry . I have a few different carry guns...but I do carry it..and my wife really likes the size and the trigger
I had two different P-7M8s that were not reliable with the Ranger 127 grain +P+ or the 147 grain. I would get failures to feed. The same guns shot fine with the SPeer 124 grain Gold Dot in both standard and +P velocities.
When the P-7 was designed I don't believe there were any 147 grain loads.
Check this out
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
Ditto
I use the standard pressure Federal 147gr HST ammo in my fullsize S&W M&P pistol. It feeds reliably and is accurate.
same here
works well in both my M&P 9C and Wilson Spec Ops
Dragon Slayer
02-24-10, 22:08
When it comes to reliability I will not own any gun that does not feed everything I give it and that is why I carry a Glock and if could not carry a Glock it would be a S&W M&P, a XD or a SIG.
When it comes to preferred ammo, I will not hesitate to carry any of the 9mm ammo that Doc GKR recommends but my preferred ammo is Gold Dot 124+P or Winchester Ranger 127+P+ but they have been hard to find lately.
The Ranger 127gr is one of the best loads out there. I believe NYPD runs this and advised that they have killed a good many people with it. ;)
C4
The Ranger 127gr is one of the best loads out there. I believe NYPD runs this and advised that they have killed a good many people with it. ;)
C4
DOI ran the 127gr+P+ for five years before we went to 124gr+P Gold Dots. Before that, the standard load was 124gr+P Ranger Talons. The 127gr load didn't seem to do anything better than what the 124gr load did in D.C. area shootings. Our training schedule didn't change, but officers had their qualification scores go down with the +P+ loading, and our Sigs were wearing out faster. I'd never seen it before in a 9mm, but some of our P228s had their recoil springs actually weaken to the point that the feed timing was off. I had only seen this before in .40s that had been running a steady diet of high recoil 155gr ammo. Some of our officer actually went to the P229 .40 and with 180gr loads improved their qualification scores.
Not a fan of the 127gr+P+.
Wayne Dobbs
02-25-10, 09:30
NYPD uses the 124 +P Gold Dot, not the Ranger load. Either one of them performs well in both the lab and "street lab" tests.
NYPD uses the 124 +P Gold Dot, not the Ranger load. Either one of them performs well in both the lab and "street lab" tests.
Hmm, could have sworn the member on here said Ranger 127gr. Will double check with him.
The 124 loads are good as well.
C4
Hmm, could have sworn the member on here said Ranger 127gr. Will double check with him.
The 124 loads are good as well.
C4
Grant,
NYPD does use the Speer load, has since the mid/late '90s. They love its performance.
I use the speer 124's in my P7M13 as well. It's probably the gun I carry and shoot the most. I've also used it in P7M8's (ostensibly the same feed, but you never know).
DOI ran the 127gr+P+ for five years before we went to 124gr+P Gold Dots. Before that, the standard load was 124gr+P Ranger Talons. The 127gr load didn't seem to do anything better than what the 124gr load did in D.C. area shootings. Our training schedule didn't change, but officers had their qualification scores go down with the +P+ loading, and our Sigs were wearing out faster. I'd never seen it before in a 9mm, but some of our P228s had their recoil springs actually weaken to the point that the feed timing was off. I had only seen this before in .40s that had been running a steady diet of high recoil 155gr ammo. Some of our officer actually went to the P229 .40 and with 180gr loads improved their qualification scores.
Not a fan of the 127gr+P+.
Roger. We were having a conversation at a class about Ranger 127gr ammo and a person that works for NYPD said they liked it. He never said it was Ranger, but I just assumed.
I can see how scores would go down (especially when you add in that crappy trigger they have to use).
C4
SWATcop556
02-25-10, 19:05
We are issued the Ranger 127 gr +p+ for our 9mm. So far so good. Most officers carry a G17 or G19.
i actually had the unique opportunity to talk to some of the actual FBI ballistics guys (that do the testing and make recommendations about carry loads) and asked them this very question point blank...
their preferences, as given to me, were...
1) The Winchester 147 grain bonded ranger or PDX1 round
2) The 147 Grain HST
3) The 147 grain gold dot...
BUT...they also added the caveat that they would feel comfortable with any of the modern, bonded rounds in 124 grain (+p or no) and above for "average civilian" carry....for them the big factor was newer generation for reliable expansion and bonded so the round stays together (although the HST aren't technically bonded, what Federal does to them sure makes them act that way...they were fine with the 124 gr HSTs...in fact, the rounds specifically mentioned were the gold dots, rangers, and HSTs)
they also said that newer generation, smaller caliber rounds (i.e. .40 vs .45) sometimes outperformed older generation ammo in a higher caliber...i found that interesting too
FWIW....not 2 weeks after I had this conversation, the FBI announced its 9mm Duty load would be the Winchester Bonded 147 gr round (ranger/PDX1)
Again, though, that was all word of mouth, so take it FWIW
Dragon Slayer
02-25-10, 20:36
i actually had the unique opportunity to talk to some of the actual FBI ballistics guys (that do the testing and make recommendations about carry loads) and asked them this very question point blank...
their preferences, as given to me, were...
1) The Winchester 147 grain bonded ranger or PDX1 round
2) The 147 Grain HST
3) The 147 grain gold dot...
But they will not consider the Remington Golden Saber 147 JHP which is also recommended by Doc GKR? By the way the FBI is not the best authority when it comes to choice of Duty Loads.
I would say that the two loads that have the best and most proven track record are the WW Ranger 127+P+ and the Speer Gold Dot 124+P (the NYPD duty load).
Also the other load that is showing great promise is the Cor Bon 115+P DPX.
But they will not consider the Remington Golden Saber 147 JHP which is also recommended by Doc GKR? By the way the FBI is not the best authority when it comes to choice of Duty Loads.
I would say that the two loads that have the best and most proven track record are the WW Ranger 127+P+ and the Speer Gold Dot 124+P (the NYPD duty load).
Also the other load that is showing great promise is the Cor Bon 115+P DPX.
Given the millions of dollars that the FBI has spent over the last two decades on ammunition and caliber research, I would consider them to be the primary authority on ammunition research for police officers. They have had everyone from Fackler to Marshall & Sanow participate in their research and testing and they have done well to cover all the bases.
Most people believe that all they do is shoot at gel. The majority of their research actually focuses on real world officer involved shootings. The gel testing works hand in hand with the OIS to determine what works best. Every Federal OIS gets a visit from the FBI. Part of their investigation involves collecting data for the ballistics division of the FBI. It remains the most thorough and accurate determination of ammunition effects in the field to date.
Independent department shootings are often haphazardly investigated when it comes to the terminal effects side of it, and there is such a small sample of shootings. One shot stop statistics for example do not take into account shot placement or the disposition of the suspect. Do you know what caliber has the best one shot stop record?......the .22lr. Most ppl stop simply because they had been shot. The real test is when you have the determined suspect that takes less than ideal hits, who may be on drugs, and is determined to fight it to the death. That, is what the FBI research focuses on. The guy that won't stop until he is physically unable fight back.
The FBI usually recommends the 147gr loading provided that it is a quality bullet design. The FBI also recommends the 180gr for the .40. As of December 2009 Border Patrol switched to the 180gr loading, as well as DEA, CBP, ICE, DOI, and DOD. I think it would be wise to consider that the FBI might know a thing or two......
i was under the impression 124 was the hot ticket in 9mm :confused:
the FBI's going to 147 makes me very interested in that round.
any good info on 147 grain from glock 26's? does it reliably expand at the lower velocity?
should i worry about mag springs being strong enough for 147 grain in glocks?
i was under the impression 124 was the hot ticket in 9mm :confused:
the FBI's going to 147 makes me very interested in that round.
any good info on 147 grain from glock 26's? does it reliably expand at the lower velocity?
should i worry about mag springs being strong enough for 147 grain in glocks?
Both the 124gr and 147gr are good loads.
Police officers tend to end up being engaged in gun battles with their handguns a lot. The participants of gun battles often use a lot of cover and concealment. The FBI realized this and determined that the loads that they adopt should have superior penetration ability through commonly encountered barriers, while having ideal terminal effects. So, they like the 147gr bonded load and the .40 180gr bonded. Personally, I trust Ranger Talon and Fed HST in 147gr better in shorter barrels........but hey, what do I know? ;)
The FBI uses Glocks. Why would there be a problem loading your Glock with 147gr loads?
I prefer Winchester Ranger and Federal HST. I do prefer the 147 grain but they tend to be hard to find. I have an inventory of each but most is the 124 or 127 +P. The best resource out there to see how bullets really perform is Winchester Ranger web site. Here is the comparison tool they have. There is no better info available! http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
David
PS when you start to look at the performance of the good old 9mm to a 40 for example you will see in some cases the 9mm out performed the 40 or worst case matched it. The 45acp is still just an awesome round in 230 grain HP.
Gold Dot
HST
Ranger
124 or 147
Buy whichever is available.
As noted in the +P thread, I prefer the 124gr +P loadings for the increased slide velocity and more robust finctioning that I feel these loadings provide.
We issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot here, and have also issued the 124gr +P Ranger-T. Both are excellent duty rounds.
Over the years I have become less and less, as stated by Col. Cooper, "Proccupied with infinitesimal increments", so I worry less and less about this stuff.
In my experience all of the service calibers work about the same given good ammo. All work about the same given crappy ammo.
I'm happy with any of the Gold Dot, HST or Ranger-T/Bonded 9mm loadings between 124 and 147grs.
PS when you start to look at the performance of the good old 9mm to a 40 for example you will see in some cases the 9mm out performed the 40 or worst case matched it. The 45acp is still just an awesome round in 230 grain HP.
Not from what I've seen in FBI and IWBA testing protocols. The Winchester testing site isn't very representative of the calibers. Reason being, they do not do five shot averages and they don't measure expansion through recovered diameter. Winchester also hasn't updated any of their testing info since their initial release. I think that the RT data is almost 10yrs old now and the Talon line has improved since then. ATK's testing of the Federal and Speer loads was much more representative of the calibers, and even they did not use all the right requirements.
When it comes to expansion, each caliber size has a limit on how far it can expand before the petals fold back and hug the trunk of the bullet. The 9mm can usually expand to about .65" at its greatest diameter points, and it will usually end up with a recovered diameter of about .60".
Here's more on proper recovered diameter estimation:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26028
The .40S&W will usually expand to about .70" at its maximum point, and then fold back to a RD of about .65". The .45acp will usually end up with a RD of .70". In OIS, the JHP of each caliber tends to fold back to hug the bullet trunk especially after having passed through a rib or other more dense materials. Judging a bullet on its maximum expanded diameter in testing gel is not realistic when in real shootings the petals often fold back further resulting in a smaller recovered diameter. The bigger caliber also has a tendency to keep a larger level of expansion after a OIS because its petals are thicker and more robust.
It is physically impossible for a 9mm with the same bullet construction as a .40 to out expand the .40. Just as it is physically impossible for the .40 to out expand the .45.
When it comes to barrier penetration, all of the three calibers are fairly equal in bonded bullet format. In standard JHPs, the larger caliber ALWAYS does better than the smaller caliber in both expansion and penetration. .40 does better than 9mm+P, and .45acp+P does better than .40.
The 9mm is an excellent caliber and I love it, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it will out perform the .40 in terminal effects. Just as the .40 will not out perform the .45 in terminal effects.
Not from what I've seen in FBI and IWBA testing protocols. The Winchester testing site isn't very representative of the calibers. Reason being, they do not do five shot averages and they don't measure expansion through recovered diameter. Winchester also hasn't updated any of their testing info since their initial release. I think that the RT data is almost 10yrs old now and the Talon line has improved since then. ATK's testing of the Federal and Speer loads was much more representative of the calibers, and even they did not use all the right requirements.
When it comes to expansion, each caliber size has a limit on how far it can expand before the petals fold back and hug the trunk of the bullet. The 9mm can usually expand to about .65" at its greatest diameter points, and it will usually end up with a recovered diameter of about .60".
Here's more on proper recovered diameter estimation:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26028
The .40S&W will usually expand to about .70" at its maximum point, and then fold back to a RD of about .65". The .45acp will usually end up with a RD of .70". In OIS, the JHP of each caliber tends to fold back to hug the bullet trunk especially after having passed through a rib or other more dense materials. Judging a bullet on its maximum expanded diameter in testing gel is not realistic when in real shootings the petals often fold back further resulting in a smaller recovered diameter. The bigger caliber also has a tendency to keep a larger level of expansion after a OIS because its petals are thicker and more robust.
It is physically impossible for a 9mm with the same bullet construction as a .40 to out expand the .40. Just as it is physically impossible for the .40 to out expand the .45.
When it comes to barrier penetration, all of the three calibers are fairly equal in bonded bullet format. In standard JHPs, the larger caliber ALWAYS does better than the smaller caliber in both expansion and penetration. .40 does better than 9mm+P, and .45acp+P does better than .40.
The 9mm is an excellent caliber and I love it, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it will out perform the .40 in terminal effects. Just as the .40 will not out perform the .45 in terminal effects.
Well that is all good and fine but when you look at the penetration depth and the weight retention in most cases the 9mm out performed the 40. The 147 grain 9mm that is non +p does very very well in all types of barriers. Auto glass is the biggest killer for all the rounds and the 45acp does the best. Bottom line is I am not worried about the diameter of the bullet when the coroner removes it from the bad guy. You can not have a big enough bullet in a handgun to make up for poor shot placement. You can shoot a guy with a 40 in the stomach and I will take a thoracic cavity hit with a 9mm any day! Most people can shoot a 9mm under stress better than larger caliber bullets. So when we start getting into .01-.05 expansion differences it becomes a bit of splitting hairs. If you make a thoracic or ocular cavity hit the 40 is not going to stop the bad guy any better. In fact the penetration of the 9mm 147 grain tends to be deeper than a 40 cal so it may help insure it gets to the vitals. If you look at the test data on the Winchester website the penetration depth of the 9mm 147g in many cases is significantly more than the 40 cal. I used to be a huge 40 cal fan and figured out years ago that it is far from being a magic round. I found that it was a solution to a problem that did not exist. The 45acp will do everything it can and than some and the 9mm in a good bullet will do everything you need with proper shot placement. There was a quote around for a long time by a navy seal when asked if he felt he was under gunned with an MP5 and he said 2 to the chest and one to the head and he has never had anyone tell him wow you only shot me with a 9mm.
David
The FBI is generally consumed with how bullets perform through glass. Because of this, they put a lot of weight in glass performance. This may not apply/be of interest to a lot of shooters.
C4
We are issued the Ranger 127 gr +p+ for our 9mm. So far so good. Most officers carry a G17 or G19.
That's the load I've used for years. I started using it back when the Marshall/Sanow "one shot stop" statistics were still en vogue and that load did very well. I then discovered that it also did well in the scientifically valid testing.
Then I discovered that it functioned well in my Glocks, including ones that prefer "hotter" ammo. Then I discovered that it had very low flash in low light, despite being a +P+ load.
Given all of that, I can't see any reason to switch.
dwhitehorne
02-26-10, 12:42
OP was talking about a standard ammo for all of his 9mm's including his two P7's. My agency was told by H&K not to shoot +p ammo in the P7 so they are out. I carried a P7M13 everyday for 7 years. 5 of which our duty ammo was 124 grain Gold Dots. We never had any real ammo related problems that I remember. David
vicious_cb
02-26-10, 13:32
Between the Gold Dot 124 +p and 147gr, which has better performance? I have not seen any gel data on the 147gr GD, only on the 124gr +p.
If you look at the test data on the Winchester website the penetration depth of the 9mm 147g in many cases is significantly more than the 40 cal.
David
From Winchester when I asked them questions about why they do not update the data with their testing tool:
"....our online testing comparison tool uses the testing data that we aquired during early production runs of each lot and type. The Ranger T-Series used in the comparison tool was originally tested in 2001 with one shot per ballistic gel block. We did not conduct multiple shot tests as we did not feel that it was necessary. The same test proceedures were used for our Ranger Bonded-Series."
Matthew Schroeder
Winchester Law Enforcement
Government Contact
From Winchester when I asked them questions about why they do not update the data with their testing tool:
"....our online testing comparison tool uses the testing data that we aquired during early production runs of each lot and type. The Ranger T-Series used in the comparison tool was originally tested in 2001 with one shot per ballistic gel block. We did not conduct multiple shot tests as we did not feel that it was necessary. The same test proceedures were used for our Ranger Bonded-Series."
Matthew Schroeder
Winchester Law Enforcement
Government Contact
Is the assumption that the ammo has gotten better in all respects from that test date or worse?
SWATcop556
02-26-10, 14:43
OP was talking about a standard ammo for all of his 9mm's including his two P7's. My agency was told by H&K not to shoot +p ammo in the P7 so they are out. I carried a P7M13 everyday for 7 years. 5 of which our duty ammo was 124 grain Gold Dots. We never had any real ammo related problems that I remember. David
If the +p ammo is out then I would probably go with the 147 gr Gold Dot.
The FBI is generally consumed with how bullets perform through glass. Because of this, they put a lot of weight in glass performance. This may not apply/be of interest to a lot of shooters.
Through auto glass, specifically. The FBI's evaluation protocol puts a substantial weight on various penetration properties, such that reliability, accuracy, and expansion combined are not weighted as heavily as penetration.
This is why, rather than relying on what the FBI says is best-- which changes regularly, as their recent shift from 165gr to 180gr .40 ammo demonstrates -- it makes far more sense to choose something that DocGKR says works well and be done with it.
An advantage to Doctor Roberts' list is that it gives you fast, slow, heavy, light... pick whichever flavor of voodoo you personally believe in, then choose one of those off DocGKR's list. Instant win.
This is why, rather than relying on what the FBI says is best-- which changes regularly, as their recent shift from 165gr to 180gr .40 ammo demonstrates -- it makes far more sense to choose something that DocGKR says works well and be done with it.
An advantage to Doctor Roberts' list is that it gives you fast, slow, heavy, light... pick whichever flavor of voodoo you personally believe in, then choose one of those off DocGKR's list. Instant win.
+1
I first choose my selected load based on reliability, then shootability, and lastly terminal effects. In 9mm, my ideal load is 124gr+P bonded.
Is the assumption that the ammo has gotten better in all respects from that test date or worse?
The RT has improved quite a bit in the last 10yrs in terms of more reliable expansion and penetration. It seems like most manufacturers reprofile their bullet designs over time to achieve as much expansion as possible while trying to achieve an average penetration of about 13". I think that his is a pretty good standard.
I haven't kept a lot of track of the changes in the RT design, but the number of petals, cavity angle, and exterior cone angle have changed over the years. The RT is a very matured JHP design and the lastest ones are going to be the best. I have observed changes in other brands such as Speer and Federal. For instance, a lot of manufacturers tend to not give the .40 and .45 a wide enough front cavity in initial production lines, or the lips are too thick to allow enough hydraulic forces to mushroom out the hollow point.
I sent 5,000rds of DOI Federal Tactical Bonded .40 180gr to our training division to be used in practice. The initial production runs of this ammo had a poor cavity design. Federal corrected the design in 2008 and the new lots have a wider cavity for improved expansion characteristics.
Don't sweat the 9mm. It's an excellent cartridge.
OK, I read the link provided by nippleman. Are they saying that 147gr 9mm loads have faster slide velocities than 124gr/+P loads? Perhaps its the way P7s were built.
I am not LE and never shot anyone when in the Navy.
But the 147g HST round seems to be a good round and I can buy locally for 18 bucks a box of 50
Able to afford them and shoot them often enough to be 100% confident they work in my guns and are extremely accurate
From a handgun hunters experience slower and heavier trumps lighter and faster for penetration.
I like my 1911 full size 45 but I can shoot one handed fast with the 9mm and be consistently accurate.
9mm is 1/2 the price of 45 usually and that allows me to practice a whole lot more...
Both the 124gr and 147gr are good loads.
Police officers tend to end up being engaged in gun battles with their handguns a lot. The participants of gun battles often use a lot of cover and concealment. The FBI realized this and determined that the loads that they adopt should have superior penetration ability through commonly encountered barriers, while having ideal terminal effects. So, they like the 147gr bonded load and the .40 180gr bonded. Personally, I trust Ranger Talon and Fed HST in 147gr better in shorter barrels........but hey, what do I know? ;)
The FBI uses Glocks. Why would there be a problem loading your Glock with 147gr loads?
alrighty i'll stop worrying about reliability in my glocks..
this brings up an interesting point regarding penetration through structures.. i don't have nearly as good of lawyers/insurance as the FBI. i'd prefer no bullets i fire leave my residence. obviously that comes down to shot placement really, but perhaps a lower penetration load would be better suited for an urban dweller who doesn't actively seek out violent confrontation.
Bulldog7972
02-27-10, 11:25
But they will not consider the Remington Golden Saber 147 JHP which is also recommended by Doc GKR? By the way the FBI is not the best authority when it comes to choice of Duty Loads.
I would say that the two loads that have the best and most proven track record are the WW Ranger 127+P+ and the Speer Gold Dot 124+P (the NYPD duty load).
Also the other load that is showing great promise is the Cor Bon 115+P DPX.
I agree Ike. I mean how many shooting is the FBI actually involved in? I'll take the opinion of those that are frequently involved in shootings over the opinion of the FBI anyday. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers but it is what it is.
I agree Ike. I mean how many shooting is the FBI actually involved in? I'll take the opinion of those that are frequently involved in shootings over the opinion of the FBI anyday. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers but it is what it is.
Previous quote:
Given the millions of dollars that the FBI has spent over the last two decades on ammunition and caliber research, I would consider them to be the primary authority on ammunition research for police officers. They have had everyone from Fackler to Marshall & Sanow participate in their research and testing and they have done well to cover all the bases.
Most people believe that all they do is shoot at gel. The majority of their research actually focuses on real world officer involved shootings. The gel testing works hand in hand with the OIS to determine what works best. Every Federal OIS gets a visit from the FBI. Part of their investigation involves collecting data for the ballistics division of the FBI. It remains the most thorough and accurate determination of ammunition effects in the field to date.
Independent department shootings are often haphazardly investigated when it comes to the terminal effects side of it, and there is such a small sample of shootings. One shot stop statistics for example do not take into account shot placement or the disposition of the suspect. Do you know what caliber has the best one shot stop record?......the .22lr. Most ppl stop simply because they had been shot. The real test is when you have the determined suspect that takes less than ideal hits, who may be on drugs, and is determined to fight it to the death. That, is what the FBI research focuses on. The guy that won't stop until he is physically unable fight back.
The FBI usually recommends the 147gr loading provided that it is a quality bullet design. The FBI also recommends the 180gr for the .40. As of December 2009 Border Patrol switched to the 180gr loading, as well as DEA, CBP, ICE, DOI, and DOD. I think it would be wise to consider that the FBI might know a thing or two......
The FBI officer involved shooting data encompasses almost all Federal domestic agencies such as FBI, BP, CBP, ICE, DEA, DOI, and a few others. That is a combined data base of over 50,000 field officers and the shootings they are involved in. There is no other system that compares.
Dragon Slayer
02-27-10, 11:47
I have no problem with the FBI but if I had to rely on their choices i would have been carrying a 10mm even if some can not shoot it well or would be changing calibers and loads every so often.
The FBI does make some good choices but it is run by bureaucrats that influence those choices due to other considerations like many PD's do which in many instances override the recommendations of the real knowledgeable people.
So you will forgive me if I do not take what they say and choose as the last word.
If you will notice most of the choices the FBI made in the last few years were already recommended by some other independent ballisticians a few years before.
So what I am trying to say is that they might be a very good agency but they did not discover America as we say when it comes to ballistics and I am not trying to start an argument here.
Also I do not consider M and S as an authority on ballistics far from it.
Also I do not consider M and S as an authority on ballistics far from it.
The FBI was nice enough to include them in some of their workshops. However, since they brought nothing constructive to the table they were shown the door and never invited back.
Dragon Slayer
02-27-10, 15:59
I agree Ike. I mean how many shooting is the FBI actually involved in? I'll take the opinion of those that are frequently involved in shootings over the opinion of the FBI anyday. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers but it is what it is.
How did you know to call me "IKE":confused::)
Dragon Slayer
02-27-10, 16:11
The FBI was nice enough to include them in some of their workshops. However, since they brought nothing constructive to the table they were shown the door and never invited back.
Good for them (the FBI).:)
SELFDEFENSE
03-02-10, 12:01
Ranger T 147 gr. and Speer Gold Dot 147 gr.
"By the way the FBI is not the best authority when it comes to choice of Duty Loads."
"I'll take the opinion of those that are frequently involved in shootings over the opinion of the FBI anyday."
I must STRONGLY disagree with the above quotes; it has been my experience that the FBI BRF under SSA Buford Boone is the best USG source for wound ballistic data, bar none. You can take what they say to the bank! There has never been an instance in the last 15 years when their data differed from ours.
As noted by trio's post above and inferred by ToddG--what load wins an FBI contract, with all the paper-work hoops and red-tape that entails, is not necessarily the same as what the FBI BRF data recommends. LE agencies can request the FBI BRF data and make their own determinations, based on their own requirements. To short change, belittle, or be skeptical of FBI BRF would be extremely unwise.
Dragon Slayer
03-02-10, 18:14
The FBI does make some good choices but it is run by bureaucrats that influence those choices due to other considerations like many PD's do which in many instances override the recommendations of the real knowledgeable people.
.
[b]
As noted by trio's post above and inferred by ToddG--what load wins an FBI contract, with all the paper-work hoops and red-tape that entails, is not necessarily the same as what the FBI BRF data recommends. LE agencies can request the FBI BRF data and make their own determinations, based on their own requirements. To short change, belittle, or be skeptical of FBI BRF would be extremely unwise.
Doc as you will see above that is what I said even if the real knowledgable people recommend a certain load the bureaucrats and politicians might change it.:)
The perjorative comments regarding FBI BRF ammo recommendations appeared to be confusing FBI ammo contracts with FBI BRF data.
Dragon Slayer
03-02-10, 19:44
The perjorative comments regarding FBI BRF ammo recommendations appeared to be confusing FBI ammo contracts with FBI BRF data.
I do not know who BRF is and I never mentioned BRF. My remarks were related to what agents were issued for carry, like the 10mm, the 9mm Silvertip before that Etc.
I do not know who BRF is and I never mentioned BRF. My remarks were related to what agents were issued for carry, like the 10mm, the 9mm Silvertip before that Etc.
Judging the FBI's ammo selection criteria based on what they were doing in the Silvertip/10mm era is silly. The agency's entire approach to testing has changed tremendously since then. If folks knew half the story about how the FBI ended up with 10mm handguns, it would beat out "DEA Guy Shoots Self in Foot" for funniest thing ever.
The FBI BRF is the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico that conducts all the Bureau's wound ballistic research and offers superb information at no charge to LE agencies--it is truly a treasure trove of data.
Business_Casual
03-03-10, 08:44
Judging the FBI's ammo selection criteria based on what they were doing in the Silvertip/10mm era is silly. The agency's entire approach to testing has changed tremendously since then. If folks knew half the story about how the FBI ended up with 10mm handguns, it would beat out "DEA Guy Shoots Self in Foot" for funniest thing ever.
What? A gigantic stainless-steel handgun shooting a hard-kicking round with a huge muzzle blast isn't a good choice for descrete carry and dynamic gun fights?
M_P
It's not even that.
Without getting into a long discussion, it essentially came down to half the guys at FTU wanting 9mm and half wanting .45. Rather than run the risk of civil war, the unit chief decided to go 10mm to avoid giving either side a "win" in the fight.
I spent Monday with one of the guys who was part of FTU back then. I've known him for seven or eight years. He was actually suspended without pay for a while (two weeks, I think) because of his vociferous opposition to the 10mm fiasco. For most of the next twenty years, he drove with a vanity license plate that said "9X19MM" as silent protest to the whole thing. :cool:
Dragon Slayer
03-03-10, 09:41
The FBI BRF is the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico that conducts all the Bureau's wound ballistic research and offers superb information at no charge to LE agencies--it is truly a treasure trove of data.
Again I was not critical of the FBI BRF, I was critical of their final choices. Also lately it seems every few years they keep jumping from one bullet maker to another when in reality not much has changed in the quality of the ammo.
In 45 ACP they were issuing the Golden Saber and now it seems they switched to Ranger Bonded If I am not wrong.
Can someone tell us what is the ammo that is issued in all calibers to the FBI today and what was it ten years and five years ago or better yet what changes they went through in the last 10 years.
Also lately it seems every few years they keep jumping from one bullet maker to another when in reality not much has changed in the quality of the ammo.
Federal contracts for ammunition and firearms are normally five years long (one base year plus four option years). Therefore, a new contract has to be competed every five years. Agencies sometimes are able to side-step this requirement in terms of their firearms for compatibility reasons, but for ammo that's a much harder argument to make.
"Therefore, a new contract has to be competed every five years."
Bingo! Each new contract requires a new test procedure. Ammo is switched to whichever vendor and load best meets the requirements as specified in the current contract language. Sometimes the best performing ammo is NOT selected, if that vendor or load fails to meet some other part of a contract, for example QC, temp stability, water proofing, accuracy, reliability, delivery schedule, etc...
Dragon Slayer
03-03-10, 22:13
Thanks for the clarifications, I learn something new everyday.:)
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