View Full Version : Maybe our Founding Fathers knew better....
It looks like the idea of exporting our manufacturing overseas through agreements such as NAFTA and GATT was a subject of concern at the founding of this great nation.....too bad our politicians don't want to remember our founders. I guess that is why we no longer honor George Washington on this day or ever hear our politicians refer to the words of those who gave us our liberty with their blood....
"He, therefore, who is now against domestic manufacture, must be for reducing us either to dependence on that foreign nation, or to be clothed in skins, and to live like wild beasts in dens and caverns. I am not one of these; experience has taught me that manufactures are now as necessary to our independence as to our comfort; and if those who quote me as of a different opinion, will keep pace with me in purchasing nothing foreign where an equivalent of domestic fabric can be obtained, without regard to difference of price, it will not be our fault if we do not soon have a supply at home equal to our demand, and wrest that weapon of distress from the hand which has wielded it." The Letters of Thomas Jefferson: 1743-1826. To Benjamin Austin Monticello, January 9, 1816
Belmont31R
02-15-10, 13:14
Unions are exporting many jobs...probably more than NAFTA or any other "trade agreement". Companies simply cannot afford to pay union workers 2x as much or more than a non-union worker while expecting to run of profitable business. Look at what unions did to Detroit auto. Wages and benefits go up, jobs go to Mexico, quality goes down, go bankrupt, etc while the non-union car companies did much better in the last 2 years.
The US should be making more high end items. Let china and everyone else build all the cheap crap. It really does nothing for society to have legions of US workers making the same stuff China does.
ForTehNguyen
02-15-10, 13:18
unions, environmental regulations, operating regulations, minimum wage laws, hostile taxes, etc chase jobs overseas
Belmont31R
02-15-10, 13:39
unions, environmental regulations, operating regulations, minimum wage laws, hostile taxes, etc chase jobs overseas
Dell is a big employer here, and they moved jobs overseas/other places in the US due to taxes.
At a fairly good clip we are creating a hostile business environment here in the US much like Europe where its extremely expensive to operate. Our unemployment levels are going to match theirs which historically have been quite a bit higher than the US.
Every time someone shops at a large chain store that sells plenty of Chinese-made goods (such as Walmart), they are voting with their dollar that price is more important than "Made in America". The fixed costs associated with manufacturing are higher in the US than they are overseas. The labor costs are higher as well.
We can try to blame large corporations or even politicians for the move, but when consumers shop predominantly on price the corporations know what they have to do to keep their customers coming back.
Every time someone shops at a large chain store that sells plenty of Chinese-made goods (such as Walmart), they are voting with their dollar that price is more important than "Made in America". The fixed costs associated with manufacturing are higher in the US than they are overseas. The labor costs are higher as well.
We can try to blame large corporations or even politicians for the move, but when consumers shop predominantly on price the corporations know what they have to do to keep their customers coming back.
Alric, while I wholeheartedly agree with you the problem is, Where can we find a store that predominantly stocks "Made in America" products??
While we can all can sit here and debate the merits of high mfg costs, unions this, unions that, lets not forget one thing. Whenever there is a problem in this country, if you really want to know whats going on.....FOLLOW THE MONEY. American manufacturing can be profitable. If the executives weren't giving themselves billion dollar bonus'. Thats just one of many problems (corporate greed) that plague this Country's economy.
Alric, while I wholeheartedly agree with you the problem is, Where can we find a store that predominantly stocks "Made in America" products??
While we can all can sit here and debate the merits of high mfg costs, unions this, unions that, lets not forget one thing. Whenever there is a problem in this country, if you really want to know whats going on.....FOLLOW THE MONEY. American manufacturing can be profitable. If the executives weren't giving themselves billion dollar bonus'. Thats just one of many problems (corporate greed) that plague this Country's economy.
They were bred out by the last 10-20 years of consumer price shopping. If a company could survive, manufacture in the US and be profitable, why doesn't it happen? Do you really think they want to deal with international law and regulations, shipping and customs? Lets not forget China itself, who isn't exactly a fantastic business partner.
I also like how people talk about greed as if its a bad thing. People acting in their own self-interest is essentially how capitalism functions. It may or may not be perfect, but it seems to be better than the alternatives. Instead of looking at those executives and saying "its not fair", ask something like "how can I be that guy?" I don't think executive bonuses are the reason why jobs went and continue to leave for overseas.
If the executives weren't giving themselves billion dollar bonus'. Thats just one of many problems (corporate greed) that plague this Country's economy.
Bonuses make up a very small amount of the bottom line of these companies and has nothing to do with why they ship jobs overseas. They think it is cheaper to make stuff overseas and import it than make it locally. Why? Regulation and taxation (US has one of the highest corp tax rates in the world), unions, regulations, regulations, etc.
There are rumors of a bit of unrest recently in China...first time in years the direct workers may not see a 2 digit % increase in salary and a bonus due to economy. One plant got supposedly got trashed when this was announced. I would love to see some the biz I lost come back to Mexico:cool:
You can spend a little time here guessing the future.
Global Risk:
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/globalrisk/Reports/index.htm
The US should be making more high end items. Let china and everyone else build all the cheap crap. It really does nothing for society to have legions of US workers making the same stuff China does.
as the economic disparity between upper and lower classes increases, the world's demand for "high end" products drops. it'd be great if we could make a living producing high-quality shit again, but nowadays CHEAP gets the contract.
Like I stated in my previous post, corporate greed is ONE of MANY problems the companies who wish to mfg. in the U.S face.
We are doomed due to ignorance, arrogance and apathy in the
public, ultimately. Well, intellectual indifference also plays a role.
Like I stated in my previous post, corporate greed is ONE of MANY problems the companies who wish to mfg. in the U.S face.
Depending on what you mean by "corporate greed" my answer is, not really.
All the executive bonuses in the world is a drop in the bucket. Financially it is not on the radar screen.
Corporations are supposed to be "greedy." That is what they are there for -- to make a profit.
It is a convenient scapegoat though.
CharlieKilo
02-15-10, 18:12
You must remove the middle class in order to gain dictatorial control over a population. The easiest way to do this is to out source their jobs to another group.
Our politicians are clearly acting in favor of the giant corporations...call it what you will, but don't call it an accident. This is all part of a larger plan.
If we were wise, we'd eliminate every government agency besides the military, post office and department of transportation, then shove everything else onto the states (if they want it) and make them compete against each other. Completely eliminate federal taxation of any US citizen or entity and make importers pay taxes enough on imported goods to fund the streamlined federal government. Burn 99.9% of the US Code and CFR's from end to end.
I have zero problems with some states going to a European model of taxation/welfare, and other states resembling Afghanistan with nicer vehicles. A little variety is good in life.
Importing what we can make here is nothing but foreign aid, IE taking money from poor people here, and giving it to some guy who's already rich overseas.
If we were wise, we'd eliminate every government agency besides the military, post office and department of transportation, then shove everything else onto the states (if they want it) and make them compete against each other. Completely eliminate federal taxation of any US citizen or entity and make importers pay taxes enough on imported goods to fund the streamlined federal government. Burn 99.9% of the US Code and CFR's from end to end.
I have zero problems with some states going to a European model of taxation/welfare, and other states resembling Afghanistan with nicer vehicles. A little variety is good in life.
Importing what we can make here is nothing but foreign aid, IE taking money from poor people here, and giving it to some guy who's already rich overseas.
<gasp> you mean like it used to be, and was supposed to be???? heresy!
sounds like a great ****in idea to me.. but, as you know.......
dmancornell
02-15-10, 18:29
The Founding Fathers didn't predict unions and government interference destroying domestic manufacturing.
Someone explain to me how closed shop is illegal except when government sanctioned?
sounds like a great ****in idea to me.. but, as you know.......
Yeah, I'm surprised nobody has thought up anything like that before.
I love the rallying cry of downsizing the Federal government back towards its original purpose. I wonder what implications it has for society though. I'd wager that many of the things we enjoy about life in the US today is due to large government.
I love the rallying cry of downsizing the Federal government back towards its original purpose. I wonder what implications it has for society though. I'd wager that many of the things we enjoy about life in the US today is due to large government.
not worth it. down with the bastah'ds!
not worth it. down with the bastah'ds!
:) I'm just sitting here thinking about how things would be without drivers license reciprocity, the FDA, or the Uniform Commercial Code.
Like so many things, many government agencies were established and existed for good reasons, and they did good things. They just grew out of control into the monstrosity that exists today. Didn't the unions bring about the 40-hour, 5 day work week?
I'd wager that many of the things we enjoy about life in the US today is due to large government.
Really:confused: .. what would that be .. a free ride I don't use or need.
Shadow1198
02-15-10, 21:54
The fundamental problem is this mentality and exercise of punishing success and rewarding failure. This is completely the inverse to what capitalism is all about. By ever increasing regulation, taxation, and deeper government involvement in anything of any nature, that is always the end result. I agree, there are plenty of greedy people out there, however I still believe people should receive compensation commensurate to their abilities and actions. If a corporate exec does an excellent job, makes a business profitable, and exceeds expectations, I feel they fully deserve to reap the rewards of their labor because they would have earned it. That is not just an opinion, that is the basic definition of what capitalism is. The problem is broke asses (hey I'm one right now too) suffer from envy and despise anyone that has more than them, and just can't understand a "reason" for why someone should be able to have more than them. Without commensurate incentives, a business cannot compete for quality personnel and stay successful. If you want people to work hard and do a great job, you need to offer them incentives, and they must be competitive for the respective position, otherwise that employee will eventually move to another company that is more competitive. I'm a broke ass, and it's entirely my fault because I used to work stupidly as opposed to working smart. Despite that I don't feel jealous at all when hearing about a corporate exec that made a $50M bonus. There's working hard, and there's working smart. Many people mistakenly believe that just because a person works hard, they should be given the same compensation as someone that works smart.
Here's a fun exercise to put things in perspective (rather depressing too if you think about it). Get out a pen or pencil and a piece of paper. Start making a list of every government-based tax, license fee, and regulatory measure you deal with in your life. The list of taxes alone is ridiculous. Now imagine how much easier things would be and how much money you'd save if only half of those things existed. Remove half the laws, taxes, regulations, etc on the books and I guarantee you things will change drastically for the better in a short period of time.
I haven't in recent history looked at the budget breakdown for the Federal government. A quick Google search yielded this chart and explanation page which cites the CBO: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258
I won't go swinging the axe at the different areas of the pie, but I like the defense spending and most of the "other 1/5th" spending. I expected that "other" section to be a bit larger really, given the number of departments and things it is covering. 20% of 3 trillion is no small number though, to be fair.
Belmont31R
02-15-10, 22:19
I love the rallying cry of downsizing the Federal government back towards its original purpose. I wonder what implications it has for society though. I'd wager that many of the things we enjoy about life in the US today is due to large government.
Such as?
Belmont31R
02-15-10, 22:28
I haven't in recent history looked at the budget breakdown for the Federal government. A quick Google search yielded this chart and explanation page which cites the CBO: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258
I won't go swinging the axe at the different areas of the pie, but I like the defense spending and most of the "other 1/5th" spending. I expected that "other" section to be a bit larger really, given the number of departments and things it is covering. 20% of 3 trillion is no small number though, to be fair.
If the government actually stuck to what its supposed to do the budget would be far smaller than it is. Somehow the idea of "states rights & responsibilities" is completely lost on the country.
Medicare, medicaid, social security, HUD, education, etc are none the responsibility of the federal government.
They need to stick to the post office, securing our borders, dealing with immigration, national security, regulating interstate commerce (NOT INTRAstate commerce), pirates, etc.
This is the exact purpose of our country. To spread power out as much as possible, and keep government at the lowest level possible. Now we basically have a single government with some small details left to the states. The government is only supposed to deal with stuff outside our country, and with things that happen BETWEEN several states. Its important to have a national currency, national post office, and things that can only efficiently be done on a national scale. The states are so beholden to the feds now the states are completely subservient to the feds which is supposed to be the exact opposite.
Such as?
Regulation on restaurants regarding health, medical and scientific grants that bring about advances and new technologies, the highway system that allows interstate commerce. I believe the railroads are under the Federal umbrella. FCC regulation on the wireless spectrum and television stations. Mandatory nutrition information published on foods and in restaurants. I'm sure OSHA has made positive contributions to the workplace at some point in its history. The SEC provides many market-related protections that certainly have affected our lives through the corporations it watches.
I've always been told and thought that less Federal government is better, so I haven't exactly sat down to consider all of the things that trace their existence back to Federal funding. Don't misconstrue my musings with support for a big Federal government. I'm merely wondering that if the basis of the thread is that the Federal government is so pervasive into our lives, then it stands to reason that it is probably responsible for something we do like (that it shouldn't be involved in) in addition to all the things we don't like.
Belmont31R
02-15-10, 23:59
Regulation on restaurants regarding health, medical and scientific grants that bring about advances and new technologies, the highway system that allows interstate commerce. I believe the railroads are under the Federal umbrella. FCC regulation on the wireless spectrum and television stations. Mandatory nutrition information published on foods and in restaurants. I'm sure OSHA has made positive contributions to the workplace at some point in its history. The SEC provides many market-related protections that certainly have affected our lives through the corporations it watches.
I've always been told and thought that less Federal government is better, so I haven't exactly sat down to consider all of the things that trace their existence back to Federal funding. Don't misconstrue my musings with support for a big Federal government. I'm merely wondering that if the basis of the thread is that the Federal government is so pervasive into our lives, then it stands to reason that it is probably responsible for something we do like (that it shouldn't be involved in) in addition to all the things we don't like.
Those have nothing to do with things outside of the Constitution.
What we are talking about is the extent of regulations and taxes that are pushing employment out of the United States. We have an extremely high business tax rate here, and its simply too expensive to do anything but high dollar stuff here that can actually withstand the taxes and regulations needed to justify the cost. As China and India develop up that, too, is going to leave.
You couldn't run a profitable business doing half the shit China makes.
With unions they demand such high compensation their parent companies cannot simply make enough money to keep the business going unless sales remain high. Went they dipped down suddenly they were in a real world of hurt.
Read section 1-8 of the Constituion. It lays out what Congress is allowed to do.
Amendment 10 says anything not a power of the gov is a state's right or a right of the people.
RE the budget you will see nowhere in section 1-8 does it give Congress the power to setup retirement/disability/social welfare programs. People take "promote the general welfare", and if you go back and read what the Founders wrote about that clause it has to do with things like promoting science, education, art, etc. Things that benefit the entire country as a whole not bits and pieces of it like medicaid (and based on your income). They are supposed to do things like issue patents, post roads, foreign commerce, military/militia, issue currency, etc. They are so far out of their bounds its insane.
toasterlocker
02-18-10, 00:02
I really recommend the reading the people who are ignorantly against sending "American jobs" overseas read some Thomas Freidman. Particularly The Lexus and the Olive Tree and The World is Flat. A more integrated, globalized economy is better for the whole world, particularly the United States. Long story short, sending low level jobs overseas creates more prosperity in less developed countries, which in turn create more demand for higher end services and products offered by first world countries like the United States. The higher demand creates more, higher paying jobs than than what was lost by sending work overseas.
And other than the obvious economic benefit, countries who actively participate in the globalized economy seldom have any conflicts with other countries who are an active part of the global economy. An example Freidman uses is "How many countries with a McDonalds have fought a war or major conflict against another country with a McDonalds?" Depending on how you count, and if memory serves me correctly, ONLY 1 (and that is if you count the whole Yugoslavian break-up, which was really an internal conflict in an area you could hardly consider as invested in the global economy to the same degree as other countries "with a McDonalds."
Short version: a country which is part of the global economy has little motivation to fight with another country which is part of the global economy because it is bad for business. Aside from EVERYONE getting richer, no one has a good reason to fight with one another anymore.
Obviously I can't do justice the concepts in just a few paragraphs when Freidman has written entire books on globalization, but you get the idea. People who have a problem with this really need to just give the books at least a quick skim. If you still aren't convinced, no prob. But no one can really claim to understand an issue until they have really examined the counter-argument to their own side.
There will always be chicken littles who will insist the sky is falling because of the recession, but a temporary dip in the economy doesn't mean we should stick our head in the sand and become economically isolated because of a misinterpretation of the ideas of our Founders.
I really recommend the reading the people who are ignorantly against sending "American jobs" overseas read some Thomas Freidman. Particularly The Lexus and the Olive Tree and The World is Flat. A more integrated, globalized economy is better for the whole world, particularly the United States. Long story short, sending low level jobs overseas creates more prosperity in less developed countries, which in turn create more demand for higher end services and products offered by first world countries like the United States. The higher demand creates more, higher paying jobs than than what was lost by sending work overseas.
I am not the woe-is-me/us type and generally support true free trade. However, a lot of these higher end services and products are now being produced overseas as well. Leaving nothing for the US to make.
software? china and india and eastern europe
medical technicians? lots of that going to india via the internet
high end electronics manufacture? china, israel, eastern europe, taiwan
etc
etc
etc
The idea that the US will stay one step ahead of the low payers with better paying high tech services that only we and our 1st world partners can produce does not bear out, nor does it take into account non technical things like unions, govt regulation, and things that make it more expensive not due to the complexity but due to stupid things. And also does not take into account the politics and protectionism in these other countries. They make the cheap crap we want, but do not buy our expensive stuff. Legions have been written on breaking into Japan and China seems to be hard to get into as well, for example. They'd rather upgrade their own capacity and capability to meet the increased demands of their increasingly better off society.
Not only do we buy our cheap crap from overseas, but lots of the high end stuff as well
toasterlocker
02-18-10, 19:13
I am not the woe-is-me/us type and generally support true free trade. However, a lot of these higher end services and products are now being produced overseas as well. Leaving nothing for the US to make.
Freidman actually addresses those specific concerns in The World Is Flat. I would try to summarize, but it has been awhile since I've read it and would need to review it first. I'll try looking it up, but I would still really recommend getting the info directly from the book as I doubt I could do it any real justice.
I'll see if the library has these books. True free trade is good for us all. Fake free trade like we have now, especially with the barriers others put up to our goods and services, is not good.
Belmont31R
02-18-10, 21:04
I'll see if the library has these books. True free trade is good for us all. Fake free trade like we have now, especially with the barriers others put up to our goods and services, is not good.
Thats one thing few people actually grasp.
Our so called "free market" is so heavily regulated, taxed, and controlled its closer to socialism than free trade.
Our system would be much more stable without all the regs and taxes. Right now its a system propped up by a select few in a system designed to exclude competition and expansion of successful business models.
A free market rocks - the factors against it, foreign and domestic are staggering right now. Our govt goes dramatically into dept to prop up banks, auto, etc that should die on the vine. Its evolution. Jobs move offshore for the simple reason of cost. When we build shitty cars/products and unions insist on renegogiating they contracts, etc this is will cause a major failure(unless you sponsor a candidate who gets elected and will spend tax payer money to bail out your business and continue to keep your caddilac medical plan)
And thats our own problems - trying to keep costs down in that mess and compete with countries like China and India which are able to make product at the cost of slave labor...heaven forbid a tarriff.
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