View Full Version : BCM or Noveske?
About ready to by my first M4. THe rateing for Noveske and BCM look about equal on "the Chart" quality-wise. What say you? Thanks...
I love my Noveske, it is my favorite rifle in my collection. But for the money BCM is hard to beat. Their quality is top notch, and you can use the money saved on an optic, ammo or training.
ForTehNguyen
02-16-10, 07:45
BCM high quality, reasonable pricing
ColdDeadHands
02-16-10, 08:26
Are you looking to go basic?
If so, here's what I figured;
-----------------
Noveske N4 Light Basic Upper $875
Noveske Lower $free
CMT LPK $60
mil-spec stock assembly $60
Total: $995
------------------
BCM Standard Mid-length Upper w/ CH & BCG $570
BCM Mid-length Hand guards $20
BCM Troy folding rear sight $140
BCM complete lower $350
Total: $1080
------------------
BCM BFH Mid-length Upper w/ CH & BCG $670
BCM Mid-length Hand guards $20
BCM Troy folding rear sight $140
BCM complete lower $350
Total: $1180
------------------
That being said, both have excellent reputation but you get a Cold Hammer Forged barrel and a better flash hider (Vortex or AAC Blackout 51t - your pick) with the Noveske.
With the free lower deal from Noveske right now, it is hard to beat them. Get what ever upper you want and them grab a lower build kit from Palmetto State Armory and you can have you a nice rifle for cheap.
Palmetto has a lower kit that has Magpul MOE Stock, MOE Grip, MOE Trigger Guard, CMMG parts kit and a mil-spec buffer tube assembly for $150.
Flip a coin, I doubt you could go wrong either way. Are you getting a Carbine length or Mid length rifle?
ForTehNguyen
02-16-10, 10:09
good choice on the middy
Do both, I built up my SBR with a BCM upper on a Nveske lower.....:D
ColdDeadHands
02-16-10, 10:39
I agree, good choice going mid-length! I edited my above post for mid-length uppers & added the BCM BFH option.
Belmont31R
02-16-10, 10:42
Id personally only go Noveske if BCM and LaRue didn't offer what I was looking for.
Noveske has a lot more stainless offerings than either of them, and a hammer forged CL 14.5".
I don't like Noveske's rail offerings so the last one I bought I bought it from a dealer who installed a DD rail.
I don't like Noveske's rail offerings so the last one I bought I bought it from a dealer who installed a DD rail.
He wouldn't be getting rails either way and, in this case, the Noveske is cheaper.
Noveske all the way.
Just finished a bcm build and love it.
Hello everyone! Been working this dilemma in my own mind as well, and lurking here a lot lately, tons of info! Guess this is just as good a place as any to start posting.
Looks to me like you will pay a little more for a Noveske complete rifle vs buying a complete BCM lower and BCM upper and putting them together yourself. (Most likely this can be accounted for with the federal tax), once you get all the options the same. They look to be pretty darn equal in quality to me as well, can't go wrong, this is what is called a "win/win" decision. I really want one of each, and will likely sell some older ARs to fund this.
As for buying the Noveske upper, and building the free lower, that is an awesome idea, and I am considering it myself, but for someone who has never done this, and buying a rather inexpensive LPK, I would have to say that is NOT equivalent to a factory built rifle. Nothing wrong with this, but unless you spend the money to buy top quality parts, and are experienced at assembling them, I don't think its fair to say its "cheaper."
Thanks guys, looking forward to spending lots of time here!
Hello everyone! Been working this dilemma in my own mind as well, and lurking here a lot lately, tons of info! Guess this is just as good a place as any to start posting.
Looks to me like you will pay a little more for a Noveske complete rifle vs buying a complete BCM lower and BCM upper and putting them together yourself. (Most likely this can be accounted for with the federal tax), once you get all the options the same. They look to be pretty darn equal in quality to me as well, can't go wrong, this is what is called a "win/win" decision. I really want one of each, and will likely sell some older ARs to fund this.
As for buying the Noveske upper, and building the free lower, that is an awesome idea, and I am considering it myself, but for someone who has never done this, and buying a rather inexpensive LPK, I would have to say that is NOT equivalent to a factory built rifle. Nothing wrong with this, but unless you spend the money to buy top quality parts, and are experienced at assembling them, I don't think its fair to say its "cheaper."
Thanks guys, looking forward to spending lots of time here!
Noveske uses Stag LPKs, which can be purchased for $60 on GB for someone who wants a DYI build. There's virtually nothing you CAN screw up on the lower receiver, except for maybe fitting the trigger.
As for everything else, if you didn't break or damage it installing it and it works afterwards, then it was installed correctly (this only goes for lowers and LPKs - the upper is a different story). That's the beauty of AR's.
I am building one too...
BCM Mid-length, Std Handguards, Troy BUIS and a Spikes complete lower with Magpul ACS Stock.
My total will be $1135.28 (includes all shipping, tax and I will personally p/u the lower at Spikes)
ForTehNguyen
02-16-10, 16:02
They have BCM rifles that have seen 26k rounds with bolt replacement at 16k and 26k, and a cleaning at 26k rounds. Still shooting .5" groups at 50 yards with non hammer forge barrels.
the free lowers are blems and production errors so up to you if you want a rifle to have cosmetics.
Is flip a coin an okay recommendation.:D I would give a slight edge to the Noveske barrel and FH.... BCM has really made a name for themselves in a short period of time...
ColdDeadHands
02-16-10, 17:01
They have BCM rifles that have seen 26k rounds with bolt replacement at 16k and 26k, and a cleaning at 26k rounds. Still shooting .5" groups at 50 yards with non hammer forge barrels.
the free lowers are blems and production errors so up to you if you want a rifle to have cosmetics.
really? care to prove that? The free blemished lower is just that...it has a blem somewhere which is cosmetic only. According to others on this forum who received one of these free lowers the blemish is really hard to find. However, I would love to see your prove that Noveske ships Lower Receivers with Production Errors. I'll get mine on thursday and will report the blemish with pics.
ForTehNguyen
02-16-10, 17:05
to me blemishes and errors on the finish are just that, production errors
ColdDeadHands
02-16-10, 17:09
to me blemishes and errors on the finish are just that, production errors
Whatever your definition is...people say that the Noveske 2nds have better finish then lower receivers some of the other companies put out everyday. If you rather spend a couple hundred bucks more for a bcm because of that that's fine with me. ;)
I want nothing more than a bcm 16" middy upper with larue 9" handguard. They have been sold out for what seems like an eternity.
I would go Noveske with a 14.5" Afghan barrel. OOOO AHHH
Cascades236
02-18-10, 07:28
I want nothing more than a bcm 16" middy upper with larue 9" handguard. They have been sold out for what seems like an eternity.
I hear you, been waiting forbthe 12" larue version to come back into stock. Bcm doesn't have a definitive answer on when that will be.
Noveske, but I'm partial to it. All in all, they're similar in terms of quality, but the Noveske will have a better resale value and "oooh" factor to it.
I recently purchased a Noveske N4 low profile upper with a VLTOR receiver, low profile gas block covered by free float quad rails, 14.5 barrel with pinned vortex FH, and Noveske labeled Troy folding battle sights.
I got the cosmetic blem lower receiver too, and I can't figure out what is "wrong" with it.
The Noveske/SWS rail system is awsome too. It is very strong and solid, has sling swivels, and is very narrow profile.
I finished the lower with an RRA LPK and put a VLTOR E-Mod stock on it.
I can't speak about BCM as I don't have one to compare, but this Noveske blows away my S&W M&P15T and my Colt LE6940.
Noveske, but I'm partial to it. All in all, they're similar in terms of quality, but the Noveske will have a better resale value and "oooh" factor to it.
I couldn't give two shits about the "tacticool" factor. And as far as the resale, if it's so god damned good, why would you sell it? Boom, roasted!
I couldn't give two shits about the "tacticool" factor. And as far as the resale, if it's so god damned good, why would you sell it? Boom, roasted!
No one said anything about "tacticool," did they? Well, except you. Boom, roasted! (Wow, that sounds completely gay - how old are you? 5?).
It's the same difference between a Corvette and a Ferrari. The majority of people will always respect the rarity and price of the Ferrari over a Corvette simply because it's a Ferrari. Noveske's are regarded as the Ferrari's of AR's. For that same reason, when Magpul designs lower receivers (that sell for $2,000-3,000 stripped), they send them to Noveske to sell as rifles. Maybe it's due to the price, maybe it's due to the high demand/low production Noveske has. Either way, Noveske has the reputation of being the highest tier factory/semi-custom AR (regardless of whether it's true or not). It is what it is.
They also have a better resale value due to the same factor. Now unless you're the kind of dipwad who enjoys blowing $1,000+ just because they can (and maybe you are), you're buying either a Noveske or BCM because of the investment, whether that's quality, life of the weapon, functionality, or resale value. Whether you want to admit it or not, the Noveske has a better resale value.
Feel free to use more two-word middle school comebacks. It won't make you look any more intelligent, but people everywhere on the internet might enjoy watching you get smacked around some more.
Or, here's better idea: quit derailing the thread and let the OP get the info he needs.
slickrick0999
02-18-10, 17:57
Just went thru all this myself. I ended up with a Noveske N4 light carbine basic. It was the gun I wanted. I wanted a 14.5 with perm attached FH. I was able to get the AAC 51T flash hider also (something else I wanted). I went with the full gun from Noveske. I also got a free "blemished" lower. The only blemish I see is maybe a little bit of finish that looks like maybe a run in paint?
Now, this is my first AR. So far I am completely happy with the N4 & I have a lower to sell or build a .22lr out of.
Like I said, I liked the stock, grip, FH, and barrel on the Noveske, so that is what I went with.
Rick
To give you the budget minded perspective.
I was looking at Noveske, and I'm impressed with their stuff.
But it was $1465 for that rifle.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lcb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=
or
$1228 for this one, equipped with a Magpul CTR, Troy Rear Flip up, and BCM Mod 4 CH (I already have the MIAD, but, add $35 and let's call it 1263$)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3DBCM%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html
I plan on going with the BCM stuff.
I like Noveske products, but for me, I just didn't see enough benefit in the extra chrome lining in the barrel to justify the extra $200, and really, I don't like Tango down furniture, so I'd have to swap all of that out anyway, for at least a Magpul Pistol Grip, and probably the stock as well, and when they become available, MOE Mid Length Hand Guards.
Now you do have a unique opportunity with their current offering of a free lower given to anyone purchasing an upper, that will make up a good part of that $200 difference. You could buy a complete upper and get the lower, and get a good LPK, stock and grip you want (Like I said, I'm not a fan of the Tango Down grip or stock, but that's my opinion/views and something I'd want to change) and not have to buy them to replace it later, get a Mil-Spec Buffer tube, etc.
I would say don't worry about shooting out either barrel, as if you spend the money to get enough ammo and range time to shoot that barrel out, you can afford another barrel.
With that also being said, I would not in the slightest bit be deterred by a Cosmetic Blemish from Noveske, they would not release a product that they thought wasn't safe or up to physical specification to their customers, hell include a free defective product with every rifle or upper purchased. Talk about a terrible business idea, giving all the people that buy your products a sour taste in their mouth.
Heck, if they were a bad company they wouldn't call them cosmetic blemishes and would just sell them as regular lowers, and not give them away.
I think you have a unique opportunity to get either, or for ball park the same price, with all transfer fees, shipping done +- 50-75$ (I haven't done the math exactly).
The only literal differences I can see are,
- Noveske's barrels have thicker than Mil Spec Chrome Lining.
- Different Flash Hiders (I prefer the A2, but that's an aesthetic choice, not so much a functional thing, I might change my mind down the road and change it to some kind of compensator anyway)
- You can get a BCM with the CH Mod 4 with the upper from BCM, you'd have to sell/part out the CH that comes with the Noveske if you really wanted the Gun Fighter.
Between the two, you can't lose, I'd have either one if given the choice.
That's my opinion on it.
slickrick0999
02-18-10, 20:51
BWT has some good points.
Like I said, this is my first AR. I have already ordered a magpul enhanced trigger guard. I will be ordering a gunfighter CH soon as well. Maybe even a MIAD grip.
The cool thing is, I am going to be taking all the parts that I replace on the N4 and putting them onto the free lower. My idea is to have a .22lr AR soon out of the free lower.
I have a bad habit of changing crap out anyway, so I figured I would have some extra parts in the end anyway. ;)
Like several have said, the cost is close so it is a hard choice.
Rick
RAM Engineer
02-18-10, 20:58
They have BCM rifles that have seen 26k rounds with bolt replacement at 16k and 26k, and a cleaning at 26k rounds. Still shooting .5" groups at 50 yards with non hammer forge barrels.
Who is "They"?
They have BCM rifles that have seen 26k rounds with bolt replacement at 16k and 26k, and a cleaning at 26k rounds. Still shooting .5" groups at 50 yards with non hammer forge barrels.
.5" @ 50yds is 1 MOA. In addition, 26k rounds isn't that impressive. 20k is the average life under hard use for a chrome-lined military weapon. For slow-firing benchrest shooters, the life is doubled or tripled. Larue Tactical had an end-user fire a barrel for 59,000 rounds before it keyholed.
1 MOA for a CL'd barrel isn't unheard of in any way, even after 20k rounds.
Point being, any quality barrel should last as long as your example.
ForTehNguyen
02-18-10, 21:16
Who is "They"?
http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers
Who is "They"?
http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers
Correspondence back from Pat Rogers between Pat and usmc03, in the article at the above, near the bottom.
To quote the exact portion.
At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.
Here is the Quote in it's entirety.
Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group
-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.
-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time
We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.
**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**
I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning.
It was a BCM Midlength.
Keep in mind the punishment that Pat Rogers' BCM mid-length has been put through. The gun is being shot approximately 8 hours a day in a tactical training class environment at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days. Very few people have the time, money, or effort to run a gun like that for 28,905 rounds. This upper has the standard barrel, not the new BFH (cold hammer forged) barrel.
usmc03 reminding the reader of the context of that correspondence after the example.
Food for thought.
On a separate note,
Looking back at my original post, another benefit of buying the upper with a free lower, is you'll actually not only have the initial savings of not paying for a stripped lower, you also won't have to pay for the furniture twice if you have a different preference than what comes with the rifle standard, as I see you can't buy complete lowers from them.
- Saving you the Approximately $100 you'd have to spend under normal circumstances for the VLTOR stock, and then the additional $97 for the CTR (in my example, until you sold your VLTOR or did whatever with it)
- Also saving you the approximately $32.5 for the Tango Down Grip and then 34 for the MIAD. (Again, before you sold it, or put it on another gun, doing whatever with it).
- Also you may not like the Noveske quick detach end plate, and may prefer another manufacturer's (Magpul's for example), so yeah... just the free lower and selecting the exact furniture you want from the get go and not having to sell the furniture or deal with any of that mess, it might be the best time to buy a Noveske.
- Lastly, I was incorrect in my first post in this thread, the Noveske Rifle Works Midlength is $1480.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lrb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=
- The base price of the complete BCM Midlength AR, would really be $1150 compared to $1480 as in my example, it'd make it a much better example to just say, the baseline cost of the weapons, plus $136. So $1286 for the BCM versus $1616 for the Noveske. $330 difference if you went with the baseline complete rifles.
Of course you'd get more money back selling the Noveske furniture than the BCM.
But I'm not going to factor that.
So arguably, it's a better idea than ever to buy a Noveske, as a lot of that difference, $220 is what I found stripped Noveske lowers going for, is going to be taken by them, and then the not having to sell/buy furniture...
Anyway, this is a really long post, and that's a wrap for me for the evening.
Cincinnatus
02-18-10, 21:43
1There's virtually nothing you CAN screw up on the lower receiver, except for maybe fitting the trigger.
As for everything else, if you didn't break or damage it installing it and it works afterwards, then it was installed correctly (this only goes for lowers and LPKs - the upper is a different story). That's the beauty of AR's.
You can sure scar the hell out of your lower trying to do the roll pins if you don't know what you're doing, and putting in the trigger-guard roll-pin in particular, you can break off one of the tabs of the lower itself. Then there is the matter of staking the castlenut--unless you put a rifle stock on it--which is easy to screw up.
Also, if it's your first lower build, I would reccomend having some spare springs and pins, etc, especially the buffer retainer pin and the detent pins and springs since if you slip, those damn things fly off to never be seen again.
You can sure scar the hell out of your lower trying to do the roll pins if you don't know what you're doing, and putting in the trigger-guard roll-pin in particular, you can break off one of the tabs of the lower itself. Then there is the matter of staking the castlenut--unless you put a rifle stock on it--which is easy to screw up.
Also, if it's your first lower build, I would reccomend having some spare springs and pins, etc, especially the buffer retainer pin and the detent pins and springs since if you slip, those damn things fly off to never be seen again.
I put together my first lower and I didn't have any of the issues you listed above. If you can read, follow directions, and use logical thinking, there's nothing to it. All you need is a $20 set of brass punches from Brownells and Aluma Black to touch up the slight bit of anodizing that normally comes off around the edges of the roll-pin holes.
Cincinnatus
02-18-10, 21:54
.5" @ 50yds is 1 MOA. In addition, 26k rounds isn't that impressive. 20k is the average life under hard use for a chrome-lined military weapon. For slow-firing benchrest shooters, the life is doubled or tripled. Larue Tactical had an end-user fire a barrel for 59,000 rounds before it keyholed.
1 MOA for a CL'd barrel isn't unheard of in any way, even after 20k rounds.
Point being, any quality barrel should last as long as your example.
USMC03 knows what he's doing and has been around the block with ARS for years. If he was impressed by that accuracy at that round count from the BCM, then I am too.
As for your stats on typical barrel life of a CL barrel, what is your source?
The Larue 59,000 example is a sample of one and hardly more than anecdotal for a standard of comparison.
Cincinnatus
02-18-10, 21:57
I put together my first lower and I didn't have any of the issues you listed above. If you can read, follow directions, and use logical thinking, there's nothing to it. All you need is a $20 set of brass punches from Brownells and Aluma Black to touch up the slight bit of anodizing that normally comes off around the edges of the roll-pin holes.
Then you are more dexterous than the average joe. I have put together many lowers and had a definite learning curve involved. However, I would reccomend the standard Brownells punches over the brass ones for ARS since the rollpins are HARD on these babies. I had the brass roll pin kit first time around and the first roll pin I set it to destroyed the punch like it was butter. :cool:
USMC03 knows what he's doing and has been around the block with ARS for years. If he was impressed by that accuracy at that round count from the BCM, then I am too.
As for your stats on typical barrel life of a CL barrel, what is your source?
The Larue 59,000 example is a sample of one and hardly more than anecdotal for a standard of comparison.
The 20k mark comes from multiple sources, mainly across this site and TOS, and seems to be widely-accepted as the "average life" for a working chrome-lined weapon.
That being said, you could apply the same scrutiny that you applied to the Larue weapon to the BCM review - it's all subjective.
For more about the 26k not being impressive on a CL barrel, here's a stainless barrel shooting SUB-MOA at 12,000 rounds, after being run suppressed AND full-auto.
Link (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=130&t=158390)
Sure, it's not 26k, but the fact it's not chrome-lined and being run on FA again speaks loads of the quality of the barrel, and of the over-hyped "magically" life-extension of chrome-lining.
Secondly, BCM barrels, to the best of my knowledge (and I'm pretty darn sure it's accurate) come from FN. Centurion, and supposedly Noveske (their CL barrels), get their barrels (or at least raw components to manufacture them) from the same manufacturer - that would put them on equal terms. Again, nothing too special about the BCM, considering the original source for the barrels and the fact that other companies sell them.
Robb Jensen
02-18-10, 22:03
Both are excellent. The vast majority of people would be served well by either.
With that said I find that BCM has an edge on reliability and durability.
Early Noveskes had CMT carriers where once in a while a carrier key would come lose, mine was one of these. This was a sample of one. I have three BCMs with more than 3 times the rounds through them combined vs. the one Noveske I owned. And I've not had a single stoppage (1K rounds through the stainless Noveske and just under 2K rounds combined through the 3 BCMs).
I had a 14.5" Noveske Afghan (stainless bbl).
BCMs I have:
I have are a SS410 16" midlength turned down to .650" behind the gas block.
A 16" non-hammer forged chrome lined BCM midlength.
A pre-production 14.5" hammer forged (BFH) BCM midlength (I'll report more on this one later, it's VERY worth the wait!)
Cincinnatus
02-18-10, 22:24
The 20k mark comes from multiple sources, mainly across this site and TOS, and seems to be widely-accepted as the "average life" for a working chrome-lined weapon.
That being said, you could apply the same scrutiny that you applied to the Larue weapon to the BCM review - it's all subjective.
For more about the 26k not being impressive on a CL barrel, here's a stainless barrel shooting SUB-MOA at 12,000 rounds, after being run suppressed AND full-auto.
Link (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=130&t=158390)
Sure, it's not 26k, but the fact it's not chrome-lined and being run on FA again speaks loads of the quality of the barrel, and of the over-hyped "magically" life-extension of chrome-lining.
Secondly, BCM barrels, to the best of my knowledge (and I'm pretty darn sure it's accurate) come from FN. Centurion, and supposedly Noveske (their CL barrels), get their barrels (or at least raw components to manufacture them) from the same manufacturer - that would put them on equal terms. Again, nothing too special about the BCM, considering the original source for the barrels and the fact that other companies sell them.
BCM barrels are made by BCM, not FN.
Link: http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/BCM_AR15_Barrels_s/1.htm
Everything BCM makes is top notch and American made, and yes there is something special about BCM. Just ask any of the professional operators on this site who have put thousands and thousands of rounds through many BCM rifles. BCM is a top tier company.
As for that stainless barrel you mentioned, what does that have to do with the durability of a CL barrel?
BCM barrels are made by BCM, not FN.
Link: http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/BCM_AR15_Barrels_s/1.htm
Everything BCM makes is top notch and American made, and yes there is something special about BCM. Just ask any of the professional operators on this site who have put thousands and thousands of rounds through many BCM rifles. BCM is a top tier company.
As for that stainless barrel you mentioned, what does that have to do with the durability of a CL barrel?
My apologies - you are correct about the barrels. It was Centurion and another company (searching for the name now) that I mistook reading as BCM.
The stainless barrel link I posted doesn't have any actual relevance to the BCM barrels, other than further evidence that ungodly large round counts aren't unheard of on quality barrels. Again, Larue's, Noveske's, BCM's, Centurions, all of those makers have barrels in the 15,000-20,000+ (and 50,000+ in Larue's case) round counts.
Final point being: being X brand doesn't make a barrel automatically great. Good craftsmanship and materials make a barrel great, and both the Noveske and BCM should be about equal.
ColdDeadHands
02-19-10, 00:00
Good craftsmanship and materials make a barrel great, and both the Noveske and BCM should be about equal.
While I believe that BCM puts out great products - I do NOT believe that their Barrel is equal to a Noveske Barrel.
ColdDeadHands
02-19-10, 00:14
You can sure scar the hell out of your lower trying to do the roll pins if you don't know what you're doing, and putting in the trigger-guard roll-pin in particular, you can break off one of the tabs of the lower itself.
I installed my first LPK today...well, most of it. Excellent instructions on TOS - I didn't **** it up.
Then there is the matter of staking the castlenut--unless you put a rifle stock on it--which is easy to screw up.
Also, if it's your first lower build, I would reccomend having some spare springs and pins, etc, especially the buffer retainer pin and the detent pins and springs since if you slip, those damn things fly off to never be seen again.
One of my detent pics sliped out once but I heard it hit the shelf and found it. I love my Surefire! :D
My point of view in bold
fleshfrombone
02-19-10, 01:33
Hey guys. I'm new to the forum. Thanks bkb0000 for recommending this forum and this thread in particular. The only ar15 I've ever owned is my Oly Arms plinker plus. I got it at a WAC meeting several years back for $500 NIB and now it's time to step it up. I'm leaning towards a mid length BCM as my first build for the price. This is the build I have in mind is the middy rifle with BCM gunfighter charging handle, Troy BUIS flip up front and rear sight, Troy MRF-M rail, Magpul MS2 Sling w/ASAP ambi attach point, Magpul MIAD, Magpul CTR, Tango Down vert grip, Vortex flash hider, and when I have the money a Aimpoint T-1 on a Larue mount and a 3x Magnifier on a Larue swivel mount, and finally maybe a Adams Arms piston kit. What do you think? All the parts I want can be found at G&R Tactical. Can you folks recommend a middy model and maybe a decent place to pick one up? Much appreciated. Oh btw that plinker is gonna be sold towards the build.
I just got my Noveske n4 low pro upper yesterday. Very happy with it. The cool factor is off the charts.
I was looking at Bravo's uppers, But I live in CT. so I needed the flash hider removed and a Comp pinned and welded. Bravo refered me to ADCO to do the work.
Noveske said "No problem" and together we picked the Surefire 556K. They give a discount on the muzzle device when you buy the upper. They even did a great job with the pin and weld.
I plan to replace the extractor spring with the heavy ( Black Bumper) spring and pop in a Bravo Gunfighter charging handle and then it's going on my project. :D
Hey guys. I'm new to the forum. Thanks bkb0000 for recommending this forum and this thread in particular. The only ar15 I've ever owned is my Oly Arms plinker plus. I got it at a WAC meeting several years back for $500 NIB and now it's time to step it up. I'm leaning towards a mid length BCM as my first build for the price. This is the build I have in mind is the middy rifle with BCM gunfighter charging handle, Troy BUIS flip up front and rear sight, Troy MRF-M rail, Magpul MS2 Sling w/ASAP ambi attach point, Magpul MIAD, Magpul CTR, Tango Down vert grip, Vortex flash hider, and when I have the money a Aimpoint T-1 on a Larue mount and a 3x Magnifier on a Larue swivel mount, and finally maybe a Adams Arms piston kit. What do you think? All the parts I want can be found at G&R Tactical. Can you folks recommend a middy model and maybe a decent place to pick one up? Much appreciated. Oh btw that plinker is gonna be sold towards the build.
I was thinking about something similar, minus the tango down vert grip, vortex flash hider, Adam Arms Piston kit, Troy Rail, and I'll stick with the stock FSB, I was thinking I'd want a fixed rear sight, but I might go with some kind of a flip up and probably a different Aimpoint other than a T1 (I'm just about 85% certain I want 2 MOA, because I might get a magnifier down the road).
If anything all of the statistics of tens of thousands of rounds indicate, you really don't need a Gas Piston upper...
They cleaned that BCM for the first time at over 20,000 rounds...
and I quote the original article
At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time
Other than lubricating it and going through two BCGs at 26,450 rounds it hadn't been physically cleaned.
Try to justify a Gas Piston upper to me because of "Cleanliness improving the reliability of the gun" when DI guns have gone over 26,000 rounds without cleaning, just lubrication and broken parts replacement.
It just seems like a waste of money and additional weight to me. I realize that's a bold statement, but that's how I see it.
I bought into the sales pitch of Gas Piston Uppers awhile back, but I decided later on after reviewing enough material, it simply wasn't worth the extra money to me, as it did nothing but add weight to the front of the gun and change the recoil impulse, from what I've read anyway.
I'd get the gun plain jane, shoot it and adjust what you think you'll need later. I've used the Standard issue Handguards, pistol grips and butt stocks, and I found them lacking in the AR-15's, I handled an all MOE AR-15, shot about near hundred rounds through it and I'm sold on MOE gear. I'm still questioning whether or not I should get a CTR or a MOE stock.
While I believe that BCM puts out great products - I do NOT believe that their Barrel is equal to a Noveske Barrel.
I'll agree here as well, however, I haven't done any actual testing of Noveske vs BCM nor have I seen any tests done, so it will have to remain my personal preference/opinion until then.
While I believe that BCM puts out great products - I do NOT believe that their Barrel is equal to a Noveske Barrel.
Are you saying that Noveske is a better barrel? And if so, is it better quality, more reliable, more accurate?
ColdDeadHands
02-19-10, 11:46
I'll agree here as well, however, I haven't done any actual testing of Noveske vs BCM nor have I seen any tests done, so it will have to remain my personal preference/opinion until then.
Here is a link (http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/)to a interview with John Noveske where he talks about what sets his Barrels / Rifles apart from the rest.
spamsammich
02-19-10, 13:21
With my ability (or lack thereof) I am unable to tell the difference between my BCM middy upper and the Centurion lightweight middy upper I pieced together yesterday other than the Centurion cooled down more quickly. I'm pretty sure my choice in handguards, standard plastic for the BCM vs. VTAC Extreme 13 for the Centurion was most of the difference.
In person, the difference in profile between the two is pretty striking, I prefer the Centurion and Noveske barrel profiles, but a stronger guy may not care.
fleshfrombone
02-19-10, 17:43
I was thinking about something similar, minus the tango down vert grip, vortex flash hider, Adam Arms Piston kit, Troy Rail, and I'll stick with the stock FSB, I was thinking I'd want a fixed rear sight, but I might go with some kind of a flip up and probably a different Aimpoint other than a T1 (I'm just about 85% certain I want 2 MOA, because I might get a magnifier down the road).
If anything all of the statistics of tens of thousands of rounds indicate, you really don't need a Gas Piston upper...
They cleaned that BCM for the first time at over 20,000 rounds...
and I quote the original article
Other than lubricating it and going through two BCGs at 26,450 rounds it hadn't been physically cleaned.
Try to justify a Gas Piston upper to me because of "Cleanliness improving the reliability of the gun" when DI guns have gone over 26,000 rounds without cleaning, just lubrication and broken parts replacement.
It just seems like a waste of money and additional weight to me. I realize that's a bold statement, but that's how I see it.
I bought into the sales pitch of Gas Piston Uppers awhile back, but I decided later on after reviewing enough material, it simply wasn't worth the extra money to me, as it did nothing but add weight to the front of the gun and change the recoil impulse, from what I've read anyway.
I'd get the gun plain jane, shoot it and adjust what you think you'll need later. I've used the Standard issue Handguards, pistol grips and butt stocks, and I found them lacking in the AR-15's, I handled an all MOE AR-15, shot about near hundred rounds through it and I'm sold on MOE gear. I'm still questioning whether or not I should get a CTR or a MOE stock.
I didn't realize DI systems have gotten that reliable. Did the article mention how many failures the rifle had during that stress test?
ForTehNguyen
02-19-10, 19:11
I didn't realize DI systems have gotten that reliable. Did the article mention how many failures the rifle had during that stress test?
http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers
"Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group
-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.
-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time
We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.
**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**
I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."
fleshfrombone
02-19-10, 19:20
That's incredible. Last time I read something like that it was the SCAR vs 416 vs colt. The colt did pretty well but had something like 4 times as many failures as the piston guns. I think during 20k shots the SCAR failed 200 times? I could be way off here though, I read this a couple years ago. Well forget the piston kit BCM's are GTG.
http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers
crazymoose
02-19-10, 19:40
BCM barrels are made by BCM, not FN.
Link: http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/BCM_AR15_Barrels_s/1.htm
Everything BCM makes is top notch and American made, and yes there is something special about BCM. Just ask any of the professional operators on this site who have put thousands and thousands of rounds through many BCM rifles. BCM is a top tier company.
As for that stainless barrel you mentioned, what does that have to do with the durability of a CL barrel?
According to a source I trusted (believe it was SMGLee, but I don't want to speak for him), Noveske, Centurion, and BCM all get their hammer-forged blanks from the same source.
It could very well be FN, as FN now has a factory stateside.
ColdDeadHands
02-19-10, 20:06
it's about what the manufacturer does with the Blanks.
According to a source I trusted (believe it was SMGLee, but I don't want to speak for him), Noveske, Centurion, and BCM all get their hammer-forged blanks from the same source.
It could very well be FN, as FN now has a factory stateside.
I knew it. I read the same thing several times on TOS - can't remember the OP, but he was well-reputed there. I was going to link it to back up my post above, but the search function on TOS sucks.
Robb Jensen
02-19-10, 20:31
FN and BCM us 11595E CMV if that tells you anything.
I don't know what Centurion and Noveske use for their hammer forged barrels but I imagine it's very likely the same.
spamsammich
02-19-10, 20:44
The markings on the Centurion are very spare
HF 1-7
Centurion Arms
At the barrel extension end there are some cage codes, I can't recall exactly what they said though. Monty would have to tell us what he spec'd.
FN and BCM us 11595E CMV if that tells you anything.
I don't know what Centurion and Noveske use for their hammer forged barrels but I imagine it's very likely the same.
Fwiw, here is an excerpt of an interview with Noveske:
Crane: Right, o.k., now you’re double-chrome-lining your barrels, or some of your barrels, not the stainless steel barrels, but the…
Noveske: The N4 Light Carbine and N4 Light Recce barrels.
Crane: Light Carbine barrels. You’re double chromin’ ‘em, and obviously, you must be getting a pretty nice even chrome job on there.
Noveske: Yes. I have a tolerance that is equal to a match-grade barrel.
Crane: Equal to a stainless barrel?
Noveske: Well, that doesn’t mean anything, because there’s a lot of different makers of stainless barrels, but there is a kind of an unspoken match-grade tolerance in the custom barrel world of 2/10ths of a thousoundth concentricity, or…in uniformity of bore diameter from end to end, and I spec that out on my chrome-lined barrels.
Crane: Are you the only guy that’s double-chrome-lining ‘em?
Noveske: That’s not the right [terminology]. "Double-chrome-lining" implies that I’m chroming twice. I’m chroming once to the technical data package requirements for the M249 machine gun [FN M249 Squad Automatic Weapon a.k.a. FN M249 SAW], which call out for a chrome thickness that is approximately twice the thickness of an M16 or an M4.
Crane: The barrels that we’re talkin’ about are Pac-Nor.
Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.
Crane: What type of stainless are they using?
Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.
Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?
Noveske: Let me back up. You can’t call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it’s gonna’ be much different. It’s gonna’ be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it’s a lot harder than any stainless we’ve ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that’s harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.
Crane: And the standard barrel that’s being chrome-lined, the non-stainless-steel barrel, what kind of steel is that?
Noveske: That’s the same steel that’s in the technical data package requirement for the M249.
Crane: And what is that?
Noveske: Well, I’m not gonna’ talk about what it is, specfiically.
Crane: O.k., and then you have an Extreme-Duty Barrel, too, right?
Noveske: Right. Now, that Extreme-Duty Barrel, we put on hold because it costs too much to make, and I just don’t feel like putting it out there. It’s just too expensive.
Crane: Is that a stainless barrel, or is that a chrome-lined standard [carbon] steel barrel?
Noveske: No, that was 17-4 stainless with a Rockwell hardness of 38. It’s extremely expensive to make, but we made a bunch, sold ‘em all, every body loves ‘em, and I haven’t made any more because it justs eats up too much tooling.
Crane: Oh, so you basically weren’t charging enough money to justify it, essentially?
Noveske: Well, imagine if you had a 40% success rate on something that you made, and all that labor, material that goes into it, and all the tooling, and yes, you might make money, but you have to charge $1,000 for a barrel to make the same money that you make on a $400 barrel. It just didn’t make sense. So, you can buy the regular stainless barrel twice and still be under the price of a 17-4 barrel. So we basically stopped makin’ ‘em. Yes, they’re excellent barrels. I have two, myself, personally, but from a realistic product standpoint, it was too much of a Ferarri for me.
Crane: Right. There was no manufacturing protocol that could have been set up to make those more efficiently.
Noveske: Oh, we tried. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars workin’ on different approaches, different cuts on the tooling, and last week, even, I just told the guys to stop production on ‘em for now, untill I readress it, which I’m a little too busy to focus on…
Crane: How much are those barrels, apiece? 1,000 bucks?
Noveske: Yeah, about 1,000 bucks.
Crane: That’s pretty crazy, huh?
Noveske: Yeah, that’s why there’s no point, right now, even really talkin’ about ‘em.
http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/
Cincinnatus
02-20-10, 22:21
The term "hammer forged blank" isn't really accurate. If its been hammer forged, it is no longer a "blank" though it might not be turned down, etc.
Cincinnatus
02-20-10, 22:21
it's about what the manufacturer does with the Blanks.
+1 :)
Robb Jensen
02-21-10, 00:06
The term "hammer forged blank" isn't really accurate. If its been hammer forged, it is no longer a "blank" though it might not be turned down, etc.
huh?
Hammer forged blanks can be turned down, threaded for barrel extensions, cut, threaded, gas ports drilled just like any other blank.
Cincinnatus
02-21-10, 00:23
huh?
Hammer forged blanks can be turned down, threaded for barrel extensions, cut, threaded, gas ports drilled just like any other blank.
What I meant was it might be a blank for hammer forging but if its already hammer forged, is it still a "blank"? Again, even after hammer forging there is more that can be done, turning down, etc. Afterall, hammer forging puts the rifling in and once rifled, is the barrel now a "barrel " or is it still a "blank"?
But few carbine manufacturers make their own blanks--it doesn't reflect badly on a company at all that they don't make their own blanks if they make good barrels from them and they are the right steel, etc.. And even when a company doesn't make the blanks it uses, it can still control much about those blanks--Noveske's comment, quoted above, about his buying the steel to be used for his blanks is an example. :)
Someone involved in manufacturing would surely know better than I: is a barrel still called a "blank" even though it's hammer-forged or even after being rifled? Obviously, small companies cannot hammer forge themselves since those machines are so expensive and have to farm that out to someone.
Robb Jensen
02-21-10, 00:31
What I meant was it might be a blank for hammer forging but if its already hammer forged, is it still a "blank"? Again, even after hammer forging there is more that can be done, turning down, etc. Afterall, hammer forging puts the rifling in and once rifled, is the barrel now a "barrel " or is it still a "blank"?
But few carbine manufacturers make their own blanks--it doesn't reflect badly on a company at all that they don't make their own blanks if they make good barrels from them and they are the right steel, etc.. And even when a company doesn't make the blanks it uses, it can still control much about those blanks--Noveske's comment, quoted above, about his buying the steel to be used for his blanks is an example. :)
Someone involved in manufacturing would surely know better than I: is a barrel still called a "blank" even though it's hammer-forged or even after being rifled? Obviously, small companies cannot hammer forge themselves since those machines are so expensive and have to farm that out to someone.
Every rifle blank I've ever seen was rifled. An unrifled blank would be a pipe....
I'm not sure you understand the different way barrels are rifled.
My 3gun sponsor W.A.R. rifles will be making me a new precision rifle soon. He'll use a Surgeon action and probably a Shilen .308 1x10 blank. For a very heavy 18" barrel threaded for my AAC Cyclone. He made his .338 RUM from a Shilen blank which shoots 1/4 MOA groups at 200yds.
Cincinnatus
02-21-10, 00:47
Every rifle blank I've ever seen was rifled. An unrifled blank would be a pipe....
I'm not sure you understand the different way barrels are rifled.
My 3gun sponsor W.A.R. rifles will be making me a new precision rifle soon. He'll use a Surgeon action and probably a Shilen .308 1x10 blank. For a very heavy 18" barrel threaded for my AAC Cyclone. He made his .338 RUM from a Shilen blank which shoots 1/4 MOA groups at 200yds.
Thanks for the information. I appreciate the response. I was under the impression that the term "blank" only applied to the unrifled "pipe" that had been deep drilled already. I know the different methods of rifling: button, broach cut, CHF, etc, just didn't know it was still a "blank" after that. :D
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