View Full Version : How to Tune an AR-15 for Steel Case Ammo
Tornado_Racing
02-18-10, 16:45
With brass ammo prices at an all time high, can anyone enlighten me on how to tune my AR-15 to shoot Steel case ammo? Brass is running about $0.33 a round where as steel is running about $0.25 a round per 1k.
I have a Spike's Tactical SL-15 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44179) and when I shoot 55 grain .223 brass I have NO issues at all, but when shooting Wolf 55 grain .223 Steel I eventually get casings stuck in the chamber.
I know Rob said he shoots Wolf but has tuned his weapons to shoot steel case ammo, so any and all info would be greatly appreciated.
I don't know how you'd "tune" an AR to run steel versus brass cased ammo, other than to make sure that you have a properly cut 5.56mm chamber, keep the chamber clean (using a chamber brush) and don't use steel cased ammo that allows lacquer or other coatings to build up in the chamber.
10 years ago or so there was a lot of steel cased Russian ammo (including Wolf) that was coated with a lacquer to protect the steel, and it would get heated up by chamber and stick. Supposedly the newer production ammo uses different (polymer) coatings to mitigate that.
There are also some differences in how brass versus steel cases expand and contract within the chamber when fired that can cause issues, but I can't say I have any idea how to tune a gun to address that issue.
Tornado_Racing
02-18-10, 17:08
So a 5.56 barrel vs. a .223 barrel would help with casings getting stuck? Can you elaborate on this?
Jay Cunningham
02-18-10, 17:21
Scrub your chamber more frequently and add an O-ring to your extractor.
+1
Shoot it, keep it clean. I shot 500 rounds of 223 62gr laquor brown bear in my BM. That 62gr shot more accuratly that any other ammo I had used.
3/4 in groups at 100yd with a 1/9 twist.
If you treat your rifle like it was a child, keep in mind that the case deflector may show signs of wear. Meaning the steel cases may wear away the park from hitting it. This happend on mine.
If you dont care about that. Shoot it, keep it clean.
Edit: The idea of steel case is to save money, so shoot 223 and dont worry about 223 vs 556. If your talking about changin barrels or reaming or what not. Take that money and buy brass. But thats my own opinion.
carry a chamber brush on a short rod. scrub dry every couple hundred rounds. Seems like all steel will have a problem after so many, IDK? even silverbear with that red sealant. it works for me. I also run my gun fairly dry and a carbine buffer.
I think the 5.56 would be the larger of the chambers.
Jay Cunningham
02-18-10, 18:50
I also run my gun fairly dry and a carbine buffer.
Why this?
I've had good luck spraying steel cases down with rem oil or royal purple before loading them into magazines.
no problem at all out of a BCM 16 inch carbine upper... gone through 2k rounds and not a one stuck case... The Silver Bear has the zinc washed cases...
never bothered getting into the "why or how" mentioned at the end of the page.
http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/116021.html
IMHO the 5.56 chamber and buffer/spring/gasport issues are key.
Robb Jensen
02-18-10, 22:14
In my experience I find that guns that would not run with steel cased ammo would run with it after using a 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer (from Ned Christiansen) and running them very wet with good oil like Weaponshield, Militec or Slip2000.
Why this?
I had a problem with that red crap getting caught in my bolt face and everywhere else. oil just made it more sticky. after a lot i had 2 mis-feeds with an H2 i switched. I have a Sabre ML and stuck with the carbine buffer anyway. I have had to rebuild the bolt but still dont get crazy with lube on this upper. Ive been through 4000 silver bears on this upper. It was from 04 or 05 and that was the trend i guess, not many ML made at the time also.
Don't wana say who was makin what when.
ETA: never a stuck case
Jay Cunningham
02-19-10, 06:49
I had a problem with that red crap getting caught in my bolt face and everywhere else. oil just made it more sticky. after a lot i had 2 mis-feeds with an H2 i switched. I have a Sabre ML and stuck with the carbine buffer anyway. I have had to rebuild the bolt but still dont get crazy with lube on this upper. Ive been through 4000 silver bears on this upper. It was from 04 or 05 and that was the trend i guess, not many ML made at the time also.
Don't wana say who was makin what when.
ETA: never a stuck case
I would never, ever recommend going light on the lube in this application.
I would never, ever recommend going light on the lube in this application.
My experience is similar. Running dry(er) has a detrimental effect. I theorize that the lube helps carry some of the crud out of the way.
I use Slip2000 EWL and their cleaning products. When I do clean the gun I strip down the bolt, soak it in carbon killer, spray it out with 725 degreaser, and finish up with blasts of air from the compressor before relubing it all with EWL. The only place I stay light on the lube is on the firing pin and firing pin channel inside the bolt.
I run 55 gr Wolf and Brown Bear in my carbine almost exclusively, and have never had an issue.
No 'tuning' was required.
geminidglocker
02-19-10, 11:00
I don't know how to "Tune" one, but I did just build an RRA Pistol that has eaten 460 rounds of Wolf 55gr. steel case .223 without a hiccup, after I put an H1 buffer in it. I recently picked up a bunch of Brass LC though so I've stopped shooting the Wolf for a bit.
In my experience I find that guns that would not run with steel cased ammo would run with it after using a 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer (from Ned Christiansen) and running them very wet with good oil like Weaponshield, Militec or Slip2000.
Agree. Chamber is the most important.
A clean that is dry doesn't run well. A dirty gun that is well lubed does.
For the record, I generally shoot Hornady TAP Practice. Have done so for years. No issues and in fact cannot remember the last time I had a malfunction.
C4
Tornado_Racing
02-19-10, 13:07
Thanks for all of the insight guys. Now I have the info needed to get my Carbine up to par for steel cased ammo.
Again, thanks for all on the input.
seacoastnh
02-19-10, 15:46
never bothered getting into the "why or how" mentioned at the end of the page.
http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/116021.html
IMHO the 5.56 chamber and buffer/spring/gasport issues are key.
Do the comments in your link apply to steel case ammo generally or just wolf?
After reading this I took 200 rounds of the 55gr lacquered steel cased Hornady tap training ammo to the range and compared it to 200 rounds of Walmart 55gr Federal bulk brass cased ammo.
I cleaned the bolt and chamber then shot the Hornady first, then cleaned the bolt and chamber and shot the Federal I could not tell any difference in the cleanliness of the bolt or chamber. Both appear to run pretty clean and I could not detect any difference in crud build up.
The only difference, other than 10 cents a round, between the two was the steel cases ejected from the chamber landed more than two feet from the furthest flying federal brass case. This leads me to believe the steel case Hornady is hotter than the federal. There did appear to be a look of disappointment on the face of one brass scrounge.
I did not have any malfunctions.
I used a stock Noveske 10.5, except for the KAC triple tap.
I've had good luck spraying steel cases down with rem oil or royal purple before loading them into magazines.
I can't belive that you lub the case before you load them into the magazine! Thats a NO NO, it prevents the case from griping the chamber wall and increases the thrust on the bolt face and can cause the bolt lugs to fail and blow the bolt carrier out the back of the rifle.
QuietShootr
02-19-10, 23:18
I can't belive that you lub the case before you load them into the magazine! Thats a NO NO, it prevents the case from griping the chamber wall and increases the thrust on the bolt face and can cause the bolt lugs to fail and blow the bolt carrier out the back of the rifle.
+1000 very bad idea.
Not only what I said above spraying any oil or Penetrating oil on a cartridge WILL penetrate the cartridge and KILL the primmer or the powder over time.
You will be SOL if you need the weapon at such a time. Other words Kiss Your Ass Goodbye!!!!!!!
Whootsinator
02-20-10, 13:25
Not only what I said above spraying any oil or Penetrating oil on a cartridge WILL penetrate the cartridge and KILL the primmer or the powder over time.
You will be SOL if you need the weapon at such a time. Other words Kiss Your Ass Goodbye!!!!!!!
The Box of Truth disagrees. Six weeks of having a PUDDLE of different oils on the primers, and all fired.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot39.htm
I can't belive that you lub the case before you load them into the magazine! Thats a NO NO, it prevents the case from griping the chamber wall and increases the thrust on the bolt face and can cause the bolt lugs to fail and blow the bolt carrier out the back of the rifle.
I was also under the impression that oil in the magazine will cause dirt/carbon/gunk to stick and could cause the follower to get stuck.
I know this is the case with Glock magazine, are AR15 mags more tolerant to this?
I was not talking about just testing primers but a complete cartridge. Check out this web site.
http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#storeammo
and scroll down to Q. What is "Sealed" ammo? Why does it matter? How can I tell if my ammo is "Sealed"?
He tested with water which is not as thin as penitrating oil.
If you are a reloader you will see the manual will tell you to remove all oil from the cartridge case.
I can't belive that you lub the case before you load them into the magazine! Thats a NO NO, it prevents the case from griping the chamber wall and increases the thrust on the bolt face and can cause the bolt lugs to fail and blow the bolt carrier out the back of the rifle.
I don't lube ammo, because there's no point in doing so and it would attract crud - but have you ever actually seen that happen? I'm just wondering because I haven't seen it nor ever even heard of bolt lugs failing or carriers flying through the back of the gun just from cases being lubed. Ammo sitting in a magazine right below the bolt/carrier inevitably gets lube - sometimes quite a bit - dropped on it during normal operation, but the guns don't ever seem to blow up.
In fact, if you generously lube your bolt and carrier (as is common practice and as called for in the Army TM), a fair amount of lube always works down into the magazine and onto the top rounds in the magazine as the bolt cycles above. If you pull a magazine after firing a few rounds and leaving it in the gun for a bit, the top part of the magazine (inside and out) will have a pretty good coating of dirty lube on it.
I was also under the impression that oil in the magazine will cause dirt/carbon/gunk to stick and could cause the follower to get stuck.
I know this is the case with Glock magazine, are AR15 mags more tolerant to this?
Lube inevitably leeches/falls down from the bolt/carrier onto and into the magazine assuming you have properly lubed your bolt/carrier. I've never had any problems as a result, though perhaps it could be an issue in a particularly dirty environment.
Here is a report from Armalite Inc. about a catastrophic failure of a M-15M4(T) where lubricant on the case may have been the problem. The report has photos.
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes/Tech%20Note%2049,%20How%20an%20AR%20Blows%20Up,%2002.01.pdf
Thomas M-4
02-20-10, 23:31
Wolf cases seem sleek enough with the coating they put on them.
You shouldn't have to lube the cases to get them to function. That is early turn of the century tech think early 20's Japanese MG. BCG yes should be well lubed but the cases no if you have to lube the cases something is wrong.
Nam62, the Armalite report you reference is not the documentation of one specific incident but more of a form letter addressing several common failure issues.
I always thought the problem with steel cased ammo was the steel case doesn't expanded compared to brass casings, which causes short stroking and carbon build up in the chamber.
Thats why I always see steel casing covered with carbon, especially switching from shooting brass casing to steel casing which I get the most failures.
Tornado_Racing
02-21-10, 06:09
Went to the range yesterday with 500 rounds of Tula .223 55 gr. (http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/502.php) and 500 rounds of PMC Bronze .223 55 gr. (http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/168.php) for our monthly shoot with friends and family. We would shoot one mag of steel then one mag of brass and after the 7th mag of Tula (200+ steel rounds or 400+ mixed) a case got stuck. To get me by for the time being I had the gun "coated" with CLP and after tapping out the casing I cleaned, re-lubed, and ran her really wet. Finished off the remaining Tula/PMC without a single issue. We ran my SL-15 hard as she got REALLY hot, but not one FTE.
I'm gonna send the barrel to ADCO for 5.56 reaming. While waiting for the barrel work to be completed I'll order some Slip2000, cleaner, and more Tula. I've got some Federal XM193 I want to shoot but for safety reasons I'll wait until the chamber is reamed to 5.56.
While ADCO has the barrel I'm gonna have them do some contouring behind the FSB so the OD measured .550" on the entire barrel.
Thanks for all of the input and suggestions guys! Alot of info to apply and try.
Tornado_Racing
02-21-10, 06:26
I did have one question about running a gun that wet. After I tapped out the case and re-lubed, is it normal to have lube drip into the lower and mags? You could still operate the weapon without getting CLP on your hands but it was leaking between the upper/lower and into the PMAGS.
After running her that wet I didn't have any FTE's at all but just wondering if it's safe and normal to have that much lube. I've never run a gun that wet so not sure what I need to be looking for.
Here is a report from Armalite Inc. about a catastrophic failure of a M-15M4(T) where lubricant on the case may have been the problem. The report has photos.
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes/Tech%20Note%2049,%20How%20an%20AR%20Blows%20Up,%2002.01.pdf
That report shows a failure caused by case failure/excessive pressure in a handload - most likely a reloading error, not a result of lubing the case.
I did have one question about running a gun that wet. After I tapped out the case and re-lubed, is it normal to have lube drip into the lower and mags?
Yes. Normal.
I was not able to find any evidence of catastrophic failer of rife info. on the internet. I did find a warning from Sig. in the manual for the Sig556 on page 20 that says
AMMUNITION
1. Use only high quality, original, factory-manufactured
ammunition. Do not use cartridges that are dirty, wet, corroded,
bent, or damaged. Do not oil cartridges. Do not spray aerosol-type
lubricants, preservatives, or cleaners directly onto cartridges or
where excess spray may flow into contact with cartridges.
Lubricant or other foreign matter on cartridges can cause potentially
dangerous ammunition malfunctions. Use only ammunition
of the caliber for which your firearm is chambered. The proper
caliber is permanently engraved on your firearm; never attempt to
use ammunition of any other caliber.
https://www.sigarms.com/CustomerService/documents/SIG556OM.pdf
Jay Cunningham
02-21-10, 13:12
I always thought the problem with steel cased ammo was the steel case doesn't expanded compared to brass casings, which causes short stroking and carbon build up in the chamber.
Thats why I always see steel casing covered with carbon, especially switching from shooting brass casing to steel casing which I get the most failures.
ding ding ding
I can't belive that you lub the case before you load them into the magazine! Thats a NO NO, it prevents the case from griping the chamber wall and increases the thrust on the bolt face and can cause the bolt lugs to fail and blow the bolt carrier out the back of the rifle.
No kidd'n? It's the only way I've been able to prevent wolf from immediately getting stuck in a hot chamber.
I am more concerned about having a stuck steel case in my chamber than oil attracting a small amount of particulate in my magazines. Magazines can be cleaned easy enough and a stuck case means I have to wait around for it to cool off before I can continue to shoot.
No kidd'n? It's the only way I've been able to prevent wolf from immediately getting stuck in a hot chamber.
I am more concerned about having a stuck steel case in my chamber than oil attracting a small amount of particulate in my magazines. Magazines can be cleaned easy enough and a stuck case means I have to wait around for it to cool off before I can continue to shoot.
The reason why wolf is sticking in your chamber is because of:
1. Out of spec chamber.
2. You have not cleaned your chamber correctly to remove the residue that builds up from shooting steel ammo.
Lubing the rounds is NOT the correct answer.
C4
Thomas M-4
02-23-10, 10:29
No kidd'n? It's the only way I've been able to prevent wolf from immediately getting stuck in a hot chamber.
I am more concerned about having a stuck steel case in my chamber than oil attracting a small amount of particulate in my magazines. Magazines can be cleaned easy enough and a stuck case means I have to wait around for it to cool off before I can continue to shoot.
Who made the barrel ??
Frank Castle
02-23-10, 10:40
No kidd'n? It's the only way I've been able to prevent wolf from immediately getting stuck in a hot chamber.
I am more concerned about having a stuck steel case in my chamber than oil attracting a small amount of particulate in my magazines. Magazines can be cleaned easy enough and a stuck case means I have to wait around for it to cool off before I can continue to shoot.
If it is stuck when the chamber is hot, waiting for it to cool is not the answer- i.e. metal contracts when it cools so the chamber is going to get tighter.
The reason why wolf is sticking in your chamber is because of:
1. Out of spec chamber.
2. You have not cleaned your chamber correctly to remove the residue that builds up from shooting steel ammo.
Lubing the rounds is NOT the correct answer.
C4
I know how to clean a chambers spic and span, it's not rocket surgery. Twelve years in the infantry took care of that!
The chamber is LMT, which, incidentally, I got from you!
If it is stuck when the chamber is hot, waiting for it to cool is not the answer- i.e. metal contracts when it cools so the chamber is going to get tighter.
Yes, and so will the steel case. This has been the answer every time it has occurred. When the carbine cools off the stuck case comes right out.
FYI, when a chamber heats up and expands, it will expand inwards and outwards, thus increasing it's outer diameter and reducing it's inner diameter. This is physics 101.
Thomas M-4
02-23-10, 11:52
Panzerr I have a LMT too I bought some wolf last week I am planning on going to the range this weekend if I can get every thing ready and nothing bites me in the a$$. How many rounds does it take before you start having problems?
It kinda sounds like you might have a rough chamber the best way to fix it would probably be to check the throat with neds throat checker if it passes then maybe try flexhoning the chamber.
I know how to clean a chambers spic and span, it's not rocket surgery. Twelve years in the infantry took care of that!
The chamber is LMT, which, incidentally, I got from you!
We find a lot of dirty chambers even though they are "supposed" to be clean.
LMT could have had a bad day and put out a lemon (yes it does happen).
I would have a 556 Chamber Check done and then have the chamber reamed if it is not up to spec.
Since you bought it from us, we will check the chamber out for you (for free).
C4
Panzerr I have a LMT too I bought some wolf last week I am planning on going to the range this weekend if I can get every thing ready and nothing bites me in the a$$. How many rounds does it take before you start having problems?
It kinda sounds like you might have a rough chamber the best way to fix it would probably be to check the throat with neds throat checker if it passes then maybe try flexhoning the chamber.
Thomas, it seems to happen only after the chamber is heated up significantly, like after a magazine or two in rapid succession. and it has happened even with the round being in the chamber briefly.
We find a lot of dirty chambers even though they are "supposed" to be clean.
LMT could have had a bad day and put out a lemon (yes it does happen).
I would have a 556 Chamber Check done and then have the chamber reamed if it is not up to spec.
Since you bought it from us, we will check the chamber out for you (for free).
C4
Thanks, but that isn't necessary. We have a precision AR manufacturer locally (Mike Milli). I'll have him check the chamber.
Thanks, but that isn't necessary. We have a precision AR manufacturer locally (Mike Milli). I'll have him check the chamber.
Roger. He (Mike) mostly deals with varmint rigs/.223 chambers so he might not have 5.56 chamber gauges and reamers (FYI).
C4
Tornado_Racing
02-23-10, 16:55
So............if I went 200 rounds before a case got stuck, am I doing okay? 200 rounds seem kinda normal with a .223 chamber?
Frank Castle
02-23-10, 18:56
FYI, when a chamber heats up and expands, it will expand inwards and outwards, thus increasing it's outer diameter and reducing it's inner diameter. This is physics 101. LOL- only if your dealing with a simple cylindrical object of uniform cross sectional area consisting of a single homogenous material heated uniformly throughout and free of external loads/constraints. However, I was under the impression that we were discussing a complex machine consisting of irregular shaped components of disimilar materials with cyclic loading and thermal transients. ;) The simple fact that the case is easily extracted once the firearm cools could be quite misleading.
LOL- only if your dealing with a simple cylindrical object of uniform cross sectional area consisting of a single homogenous material heated uniformly throughout and free of external loads/constraints. However, I was under the impression that we were discussing a complex machine consisting of irregular shaped components of disimilar materials with cyclic loading and thermal transients. ;) The simple fact that the case is easily extracted once the firearm cools could be quite misleading.
I'm not following your train of thought.
A barrel is round. When heated it will expand like a cheerio in the toilet -reducing the inner diameter and increasing the outer diameter. This would make the bore slightly tighter. In theory this combined with an expanding steel case could cause a case to stick in the bore.
Frank Castle
02-23-10, 19:32
I'm not following your train of thought.
A barrel is round. When heated it will expand like a cheerio in the toilet -reducing the inner diameter and increasing the outer diameter. This would make the bore slightly tighter. In theory this combined with an expanding steel case could cause a case to stick in the bore.
A barrel is not of uniform thickness nor does it act alone (and it certainly isn't round)- it interfaces with the barrel extension, upper receiver, barrel nut, and quite possibly a rail. All of these components may be, and usually are, disimilar materials. The barrel is constrained at one end and free at the other. The barrel is heated via conduction that originates in the breech at irregular cyclic intervals. These are the facts. All I was saying is that the analysis that you proposed is so simplified as to be of no consequence. It is a study of the interaction of the various components and rates of thermal expansion (radial or longitudinal). Physics 201- or perhaps you missed that class. ;)
RogerinTPA
02-23-10, 22:13
Thousands of russian rounds through my LMT and Colts over the years and clean at the 3-5K mark, and used in classes. No problems. Qaulity weapon+lube=GTG.:)
A barrel is not of uniform thickness nor does it act alone (and it certainly isn't round)- it interfaces with the barrel extension, upper receiver, barrel nut, and quite possibly a rail. All of these components may be, and usually are, disimilar materials. The barrel is constrained at one end and free at the other. The barrel is heated via conduction that originates in the breech at irregular cyclic intervals. These are the facts. All I was saying is that the analysis that you proposed is so simplified as to be of no consequence. It is a study of the interaction of the various components and rates of thermal expansion (radial or longitudinal). Physics 201- or perhaps you missed that class. ;)
Good info.
C4
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