View Full Version : It's The Law in Kennesaw: OC'ers Deter Armed Robbery
Outlander Systems
02-18-10, 17:36
Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.
http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atlanta-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m2d18-Open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-in-Kennesaw
What gives me the willies is that the armed gang had rifles...
Who was it that was asking about EDC Plates? I think it was GutshotJohn...
Great find and good news! Open carry seems to be catching on a lot more these days and in this case really proved it's worth, in this particular situation.
Two customers displaying holstered pistols deterred an armed robbery in a Kennesaw Wafflehouse recently.
There is some debate raging in Georgia about whether people should conceal their holstered handguns while in public. Some believe that wearing handguns openly will result in a loss of the element of surprise during a criminal attack, such as an armed robbery, while others believe that wearing handguns openly deters criminal attack. For Matt Brannan and J.P. Mitchell, who carry openly as a routine, the issue is no longer academic.
Matt Brannan and J.P. Mitchell were dining in the Wafflehouse on Barrett Parkway at I-575 in Kennesaw at 4:45 in the morning recently when a scout for an armed robbery crew entered the restaurant to case it. At the time, Matt and J.P. thought he looked a little suspicious, as he was wandering around the small restaurant like he was looking for someone. Unknown to Matt and J.P., two cars full of armed robbers where parked behind the restaurant waiting for the scout's report.
The scout saw that two of the customers were wearing holstered 1911 Springfield Mil-Spec .45 pistols, and he immediately turned and left the store.
Meanwhile, conscientious Cobb County Police Officer D. Lowe had noticed suspicious cars sitting behind the restaurant in the dark and decided to investigate. He caught men with masks and rifles who had been preparing to rob the Wafflehouse. The criminals informed the police that they had changed their mind upon discovering armed customers and were waiting for Matt and J.P. to leave. Ironically, the police car was pulling in to the parking lot just as Matt and J.P. were driving away. In other words, had Matt and J.P. not been armed, the robbery probably would have occurred before the police intervened.
Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.
Matt Brannan is making an Open Records Act request, and there will be an update to this story when more information is available. The case number is 09-133500. There will be updates and follow up articles as more information becomes available.
Trunkmonkey4
02-18-10, 19:43
I love my town... Almost everywhere I go I see some one carrying.
There was always something going on at that waffle house when I lived there. Kennesaw was ok but the illegals were taking over when I left a few years ago.
I went to a ccw class the other night and the instructor cautioned against open carry because you will be id'd as the threat. Glad it worked out for these guys, but it is something to think about if you choose to open carry.
I love my town... Almost everywhere I go I see some one carrying.
Sounds like a fine place to live.
Hey - that's the Awful House I hit when I'm at my client's in Kennesaw! It's no more of a dump than any other 24 hour joint...
CaptainDooley
02-19-10, 08:41
Ummm... how much of a take would a guy get operating in a crew and hitting a Waffle House? $5? Yeah, that's worth it.
John_Wayne777
02-19-10, 08:50
I hate to be that guy, but let's take a look at what happened here:
Scout for a group of armed robbers hops into the waffle house and looks around...notices the two armed people sitting there eating their scattered 'n smothered soon to be diarrhea, and then goes out and confabs with his buddies.
They decide to wait for those guys to leave.
We basically have a situation where the bad guys have the drop on our two diners...which is pretty much what all the "keep it concealed!" guys have warned about over and over again. Thankfully in this instance they chose not to press their advantage, but a different breed of criminal might not have been so inclined. In this case it worked out for the good guys, but consider the real dynamics of the situation.
Put yourself in that waffle-house....do you want the bad guys to spot you, recognize that you're a threat, and then have them spend time figuring out how to handle you?
Outlander Systems
02-19-10, 09:31
...notices the two armed people sitting there eating their scattered 'n smothered soon to be diarrhea...
Ironically enough, I've eaten at WAHO once. The recommendation from the folks I was with was to get the hash browns ALL THE WAY. Needless to say, your comment about getting a post-WAHO Havana Omelette is dead accurate. I've eaten there once.
We basically have a situation where the bad guys have the drop on our two diners...which is pretty much what all the "keep it concealed!" guys have warned about over and over again. Thankfully in this instance they chose not to press their advantage, but a different breed of criminal might not have been so inclined. In this case it worked out for the good guys, but consider the real dynamics of the situation...
...do you want the bad guys to spot you, recognize that you're a threat, and then have them spend time figuring out how to handle you?
I don't.
And here's the boggle I find myself in. I have issues shooting well with my "good neighborhood" side-iron, the G26. I have no issues shooting well with my "bad neighborhood"/main-rig USP45T.
Obviously, there is a vast difference between the conceal-ability of those two weapons. When I carry the HK, I make every effort to ensure that it is obfuscated by an article of clothing, but there is definitely some serious printing going on.
My issue is that I abhor IWB carry. My main carry weapon is the HK Crew-Served pistol, which is a serious booger to conceal, due to my chosen means of carry (OWB). Considering that as Joe Q. Citizen, my main platform is, of course, the handgun, I would like to be carrying the weapon that I am most effective with, which in my sample of one, is the full-sized monstrocity. I feel like it's a catch-22.
In the summer, when outerwear is absolutely not remotely possible, here in Kennesaw, GA, I have no choice but to suck it up and cary the G26.
What I think the scenario at the Waffle House proves is that criminals and lowlifes do prefer "easy-pickin's"; however, as you've pointed out, the two OC'ers basically set themselves up as shoot-me-first individuals.
All that being said, even if they were CC'ing, I get the cold dark feeling in my bowels about a carload of dirtbags packing rifles for an armed robbery, especially when it is down the street from me. I don't know how effective I would be against multiple individuals, who outnumber me, with superior firepower, whether I was carrying a G18 w/30rd mag, or a Jennings .22. That is a situation I don't want to be in, especially considering the tactics of the bad guys involved:
1) An ambush
2) Multiple individuals, armed with rifles
3) Good guys, armed, targeted, and sidelined stuffing their faces with liquid-shituid on a plate
What this, again, illustrates to me, is that as an armed civilian, the most important drill I can work on is firing from the draw. The good guys in this situation would have to drop their forks, slide out of a booth, draw their sidearm, and take a shot, while the bad guys have the advantage of superior weapons, and the element of surprise. I honestly believe if shots had been fired, it wouldn't have ended well for the home team.
Which brings me back to the Catch-22. If I had to fight for my life, I would most certainly want the firearm I shoot the best with.
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9769/hkusp45t.jpg
I don't want to give up the light on my primary weapon system, and, truth be told, I don't want to give up my primary weapon system in lieu of something I am less effective with. That being said, I don't want to paint a target on my chest, and have a neon sign w/ arrow that says "take me out, and the party's on".
:confused:
A couple more worms from the can:
The very confusing and messy can of worms that passes for firearm law in Georgia usually requires a Georgia Firearms Licence ( CCW for the rest of the world ) for open carry.
It is also against the law to carry at "Public Gatherings ".
Outlander Systems
02-19-10, 10:28
A couple more worms from the can:
The very confusing and messy can of worms that passes for firearm law in Georgia usually requires a Georgia Firearms Licence ( CCW for the rest of the world ) for open carry.
It is also against the law to carry at "Public Gatherings ".
Somewhere floating around on the errornet is a quote from the AG on what constitutes a PG, but there are some bills being worked on that will specifically spell it out.
Privately-owned businesses are NOT PGs. That being said, if the business has a no-firearms policy, and an agent or representative or employee of that business asks you to leave, you must comply or you will be charged with criminal tresspass; however, the same thing can occur if they have any reason to ask you to leave, such as they don't like your haircut, or you're not wearing shoes.
GA, does, in fact, require a Georgia Firearms License for OC. Essentially, it's a "carrying license", and doesn't mandate OC or CC. It's nothing more than a license to carry.
Some quotes from the AG:
Therefore, it is my unofficial opinion that the "public gathering" law, O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127, in addition to the five specific areas, focuses not on the place but the gathering of people, and that the prohibition against carrying a weapon applies to situations "when people are gathered or will be gathered for a particular function and not when a weapon is carried lawfully to a public place, where people may gather."
Off-Limits in GA:
Publicly Owned or Operated
Jail and prison (42-4-13 may include parking lot)
Sheriff's Department
City Police Department
County Police Department
State Patrol Office/DMV
City Bus Depot and covered stops including the adjacent parking lots (16-12-122 - 16-12-127)
Airport including the adjacent parking lots (16-12-122 - 16-12-127)
Public and Private Elementary, Middle, and High Schools includes parking lot except when picking up/dropping off a student (16.11.127.1)
Public and Private College, University, or Institution of Postsecondary Education includes parking lot except when picking up/dropping off a student (16.11.127.1)
Highway Rest Stop Building
State Park buildings (12-3-10)
State Historic Site buildings (12-3-10)
Tag Office
Court House
City Auditorium
Fire Station
Library
Department of Labor/Unemployment Office
City/County Water/Sewer Department
County Extension Office
US Post Office
Voter Registration Office
Public Gatherings: Case Law: Including the adjacent parking lot (Farmer v. State, 112 Ga.App. 438 (1965) / Jordan v. State, 166 Ga. App. 417 (1983) / Hubbard v. State, 210 Ga. App. 141, 143-44 (1993))
Sporting or Athletic Event
Church, Church Event, or property leased by a church (such as in a mall)
Political rallies or functions
Establishments at which alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises which derive less than 50 percent of their total annual gross food and beverage sales from the sale of prepared meals or food and you cannot drink alcohol while there
A barbecue on the 4th of July, at which people are assembled to the number of 400 or 500 (Case Law: Wynne v. State, 123 Ga. 566 (1905))
I hate to be that guy, but let's take a look at what happened here:
Scout for a group of armed robbers hops into the waffle house and looks around...notices the two armed people sitting there eating their scattered 'n smothered soon to be diarrhea, and then goes out and confabs with his buddies.
They decide to wait for those guys to leave.
We basically have a situation where the bad guys have the drop on our two diners...which is pretty much what all the "keep it concealed!" guys have warned about over and over again. Thankfully in this instance they chose not to press their advantage, but a different breed of criminal might not have been so inclined. In this case it worked out for the good guys, but consider the real dynamics of the situation.
Put yourself in that waffle-house....do you want the bad guys to spot you, recognize that you're a threat, and then have them spend time figuring out how to handle you?
The same thing could be said for uniformed police officers eating in the diner, shoot the cops first or come back later. I believe if more people were to OC rather than keep their weapons concealed it would create a greater deterrant to crime than concealed carry does.
However, on the other hand, if you're the only person OC'ing in a public environment than yes it does single you out as a possible first target. I see plain clothes Detectives, minus the jacket, OC'ing their pistols quite frequently and I don't think they're too worried about it, I could be wrong.
The fact is that OC played a large part in preventing a crime when these guys were there displaying their firearms. Hell, the bad guys might've thought they were cops, who knows? If several other people were OC'ing how much more of a deterrant would it have been?
I do understand the tactical advantages to having your pistol concealed and agree with the vast majority of reasons, especially when alone. However, if more people were to OC their pistols, and especially if it were to be more than one person at the time, that presents a whole different ball game and helps reduce the chance of a gunfight by using a visual deterrant. For arguments sake what would happen if concealed carry went away and everyone who wanted to carry legally had to OC? I think you'd see a much more polite society and crime would drop to a very low level in general.
And here's the boggle I find myself in. I have issues shooting well with my "good neighborhood" side-iron, the G26. I have no issues shooting well with my "bad neighborhood"/main-rig USP45T...
...Obviously, there is a vast difference between the conceal-ability of those two weapons. When I carry the HK, I make every effort to ensure that it is obfuscated by an article of clothing, but there is definitely some serious printing going on...
...My issue is that I abhor IWB carry. My main carry weapon is the HK Crew-Served pistol, which is a serious booger to conceal, due to my chosen means of carry (OWB). Considering that as Joe Q. Citizen, my main platform is, of course, the handgun, I would like to be carrying the weapon that I am most effective with, which in my sample of one, is the full-sized monstrocity. I feel like it's a catch-22.
In the summer, when outerwear is absolutely not remotely possible, here in Kennesaw, GA, I have no choice but to suck it up and cary the G26...
...Which brings me back to the Catch-22. If I had to fight for my life, I would most certainly want the firearm I shoot the best with...
I don't want to give up the light on my primary weapon system, and, truth be told, I don't want to give up my primary weapon system in lieu of something I am less effective with. That being said, I don't want to paint a target on my chest, and have a neon sign w/ arrow that says "take me out, and the party's on".
:confused:
May I suggest the following:
http://www.exofficio.com/product_details.aspx?item_cd=1002-5090&key=c289c9d1-91ca-4e44-b27c-7bbce6fdba6a
http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/image/ExOfficio/1002-5090_8050?$Detail$
All the Ex Officio stuff is super durable and super light for use in the tropics. Their Lite version shirts (as above) are very comfortable in even very warm and humid conditions. I easily conceal a full-sized M&P9 with Surefire X300 OWB in a Raven Concealment holster underneath in nearly perfect comfort.
Put yourself in that waffle-house....do you want the bad guys to spot you, recognize that you're a threat, and then have them spend time figuring out how to handle you?
There's that and then I start thinking about how this might have gone down if they were concealed carrying and the scout gave the all clear. Then you'd have a Waffle House full off bad guys with rifles and our two comrades are really in the thick of it. That's a scary thought.
On top of that, it sounds like the BGs were ready to roll in when the good guys were leaving and if the cop hadn't have noticed them there was still going to be an armed robbery.
Picture of the waitress that was posted in the story. Read her button :)
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7272/18849118544939627912295.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/18849118544939627912295.jpg/)
Picture of the waitress that was posted in the story. Read her button :)
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7272/18849118544939627912295.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/18849118544939627912295.jpg/)
That's awesome!!!
I'm not sure I would want to open carry even if it were legal for me to do so. Think I would rather it be a surprise to the BG's rather than a deterrent. In this case it worked out for the best and the BG's were caught.
Jay Cunningham
02-19-10, 15:53
I believe that OC works a heckuva lot better as a concept when done as a group.
Outlander Systems
02-19-10, 16:02
I believe that OC works a heckuva lot better as a concept when done as a group.
This. My issue is, in my group of contacts, I'm the only one I know with a license.
John_Wayne777
02-19-10, 21:39
My issue is that I abhor IWB carry.
...which generally means that you haven't found the right IWB holster yet. IWB takes a bit to get used to...but it's the best concealment method for carrying a reasonable handgun available to you.
In the summer, when outerwear is absolutely not remotely possible, here in Kennesaw, GA, I have no choice but to suck it up and cary the G26.
As far as "little" guns go, the G26 is among the best. While it's not a G17, it's almost as easy to shoot well as the G17, which is really nice given the size of the little weapon. The G26 has always been my favorite Glock.
All that being said, even if they were CC'ing, I get the cold dark feeling in my bowels about a carload of dirtbags packing rifles for an armed robbery, especially when it is down the street from me.
That situation was a bucket of suck, to be sure. The situations that result in the exchange of gunfire usually are. I recently had to eat at an IHOP at a ridiculous time of night (1:45 AM) in an area that wasn't exactly known for being genteel. I was very much concerned about exactly this sort of scenario playing out in there. My answer was to get a table as close to an exit as possible that the family could use for egress should it be required.
My plan was to get the family out, under the cover of outgoing gunfire if necessary, the minute something started to go down. One guy with a handgun against a crew of armed robbers is suckball odds, even if the one guy is well trained and hard as woodpecker lips.
When you show up in a restaurant or a hotel or a stop 'n' rob, the first priority should be to locate an alternate exit you can use if trouble comes through the front door. Getting the hell out of there is almost always going to be safer than staying around and trying to shoot it out with dumbasses who have no future.
I don't want to give up the light on my primary weapon system,
White lights on handguns are a good idea, but honestly I rarely carry my handgun with the X200 mounted. Generally I only carry that way when I'm wearing a jacket or something reasonably heavy because of the weather. I'm actually more comfortable using a hand-held light because I've spent so much time training that way. If you have to sacrifice the mounted light to carry the more capable weapon, by all means do so.
My best suggestions for you are:
1. Go back to the fundamentals with your G26. It's a more capable handgun than you realize. Work on trigger control and sight alignment using high accuracy drills (like bullseye) and then when you're doing well there work on building speed.
2. Buy some IWB holsters. There's no better method of concealing a reasonable handgun than IWB carry in a good holster. Personally I recommend Raven Concealment as their stuff has proven to be the best concealed carry gear I've ever tried.
Outlander Systems
02-19-10, 22:16
I think you've brought up a lot of salient points.
Situational awareness always applies, and the presence of mind to recognise escape routes upon entry is always a good habit to get into.
As well, I think you're right about the G26. I need to train enough with it to where it no longer feels like I'm sacrificing anything by carrying that as my EDC platform. Some grip extensions/floorplates might go a long way in increasing my proficiency with it.
Thanks for the advice. I will most certainly heed it.
.... ( Snip for brevity )...
Some grip extensions/floorplates might go a long way in increasing my proficiency with it.
... (Sfb ).......
.
Grip extention floorplates on the G26 made a big difference for me . Part of the advantage is that I can never break my old habit of steadying a gun on whatever might be available ( time permiting ). The extention keeps the pinky from getting hammered after every shot.
YMMV.
Ummm... how much of a take would a guy get operating in a crew and hitting a Waffle House? $5? Yeah, that's worth it.
Yea that is what I was thinking. Two cars? Wafflehouse? It's not a Vegas Casino.
...which generally means that you haven't found the right IWB holster yet. IWB takes a bit to get used to...but it's the best concealment method for carrying a reasonable handgun available to you.
As far as "little" guns go, the G26 is among the best. While it's not a G17, it's almost as easy to shoot well as the G17, which is really nice given the size of the little weapon. The G26 has always been my favorite Glock.
That situation was a bucket of suck, to be sure. The situations that result in the exchange of gunfire usually are. I recently had to eat at an IHOP at a ridiculous time of night (1:45 AM) in an area that wasn't exactly known for being genteel. I was very much concerned about exactly this sort of scenario playing out in there. My answer was to get a table as close to an exit as possible that the family could use for egress should it be required.
My plan was to get the family out, under the cover of outgoing gunfire if necessary, the minute something started to go down. One guy with a handgun against a crew of armed robbers is suckball odds, even if the one guy is well trained and hard as woodpecker lips.
When you show up in a restaurant or a hotel or a stop 'n' rob, the first priority should be to locate an alternate exit you can use if trouble comes through the front door. Getting the hell out of there is almost always going to be safer than staying around and trying to shoot it out with dumbasses who have no future.
White lights on handguns are a good idea, but honestly I rarely carry my handgun with the X200 mounted. Generally I only carry that way when I'm wearing a jacket or something reasonably heavy because of the weather. I'm actually more comfortable using a hand-held light because I've spent so much time training that way. If you have to sacrifice the mounted light to carry the more capable weapon, by all means do so.
My best suggestions for you are:
1. Go back to the fundamentals with your G26. It's a more capable handgun than you realize. Work on trigger control and sight alignment using high accuracy drills (like bullseye) and then when you're doing well there work on building speed.
2. Buy some IWB holsters. There's no better method of concealing a reasonable handgun than IWB carry in a good holster. Personally I recommend Raven Concealment as their stuff has proven to be the best concealed carry gear I've ever tried.
I agree with everything you say. I have a IWB holster and carry a Beretta Elite II in .40S&W, it isn't a small gun. I forget it's there sometimes and head for the next state where I work but don't have a carry permit. When I realize I've done that I have to turn around and head back home to drop off it off.
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