crap, now i have to buy another set of big dot sights-also question

[skyugo]

my bank gave me some amazon cash, so i decided to pick up a set of XS big dots for my G26. I've been quite happy with the trijicon green/yellow 3 dots on my glock 19, but thought i'd try something new.

these things are FAST.
and incredibly easy to acquire in the dark.

also super BRIGHT... is it possible that my 08 date code trijis on my g19 have faded a lot in just 2 years? the front green lamp seems awfully dim. :confused:
XS uses trijicon lamps, so what's going on here? :confused:

anyway i seem to have created the perfect carry gun.

[brushy bill]

I have some XS 24/7s on a G22. As you say, they are fast but I find it difficult to get consistent accuracy at a distance due to shallow rear.

[skyugo]

I have some XS 24/7s on a G22. As you say, they are fast but I find it difficult to get consistent accuracy at a distance due to shallow rear.

i only tried them to 25 feet, and i was shoot low because i seemed to be burying the dot in the rear sight a bit, but as i got the hang of them they got pretty consistent.
i'll have to experiment more before i put them on the G19... i shoot IPSC and stuff with that gun, so i want to retain the better long range accuracy, even if it's a little slower.

[HeavyDuty]

I've had Big Dots on my two main carry guns for a few years now (a G36 and a P7PSP) - my aging eyes like them. They're great for their intended purpose - flash and bang.

[Robb Jensen]

I have some XS 24/7s on a G22. As you say, they are fast but I find it difficult to get consistent accuracy at a distance due to shallow rear.

My findings as well. These are great for contact distance but then again at that distance you can use the slide to aim. Even Stevie Wonder can make those hits.

There was a infamous instructor who advocates these sights. He even made a YouTube video of himself shooting to 100yds on a Pepper Popper to show they are accurate after he and I argued they are slow. The problem is I can make that hit at 100yds but from a surrender with a draw and turn in 1/2 the time with my M&P and Warren sights. If I had a video camera I'd make a response video of that.

[NMBigfoot02]

There was a infamous instructor who advocates these sights. He even made a YouTube video of himself shooting to 100yds on a Pepper Popper to show they are accurate after he and I argued they are slow. The problem is I can make that hit at 100yds but from a surrender with a draw and turn in 1/2 the time with my M&P and Warren sights. If I had a video camera I'd make a response video of that.

I for one would love to see that.

[misanthropist]

I would also love to see it just because that would be some damn good shooting.

But to my mind the real question is not, "can YOU do it better with your sights?"

Nor is it "can JY do it better with his sights?"

It's "which sights can I do it better with?"

What if you are five times better at shooting than he is, and your sights are handicapping you to the point that you're only twice as good?

I don't think that's actually the case or anything...but my point is that even though a video of you doing that would be awesome, it would only prove that you are a better shooter, not necessarily that you are better on account of your superior sights.

However I do think it's reasonable to conclude that if you ARE substantially better, and you believe that you would be worse with Big Dot sights than you are, that your opinion is probably worth taking seriously.

I have recently gone to a two-dot system and I am amazed at how quick it is...but I am leery of the big dots myself. However I am still relatively young and I come from a long line of guys with extremely sharp vision which does not degrade until quite late in life, so I can afford to be smug for a while longer. I might feel differently if I had trouble picking up the little tritium vials.

[ToddG]

However I do think it's reasonable to conclude that if you ARE substantially better, and you believe that you would be worse with Big Dot sights than you are, that your opinion is probably worth taking seriously.

The point is that quite a few people who can shoot like that have tried the XS sights and found them worse. The "personal preference" thing is a bit of a smoke screen. There are explainable deficiencies with the XS system. So if those deficiencies don't bother you then sure, the XS sights are fine. But that doesn't make them better.

I have a few students each year that do pretty well with XS sights. But there are certain things those students clearly struggle with that they shouldn't, and a big part of the problem is the inherently imprecise sight picture you get from the rear XS sight unless you spend a lot of time lining it up perfectly (which gets back to what gotm4 said). I don't beat students up over it, but I do point it out. Some rethink their commitment to XS, some don't.

[sigmundsauer]

I'm still waiting for Trijicon to introduce a Big Dot front sight on a conventional sight picture. Square up the top of the front sight some. Craft a notched rear sight to match, and then, perhaps, the Big Dot would be more viable without sacrificing precision.

I am suspect of any sighting system that doesn't have two distinct points of alignment (front and rear) with as wide of a sight radius as possible. That is what sights are supposed to do. Holographic sights excepted.

Tim

[SHIVAN]

The problem is I can make that hit at 100yds but from a surrender with a draw and turn in 1/2 the time with my M&P and Warren sights. If I had a video camera I'd make a response video of that.

I have a high def handheld video camera, name the place and we'll do it. :D

[Robb Jensen]

I have a high def handheld video camera, name the place and we'll do it. :D

Yeah I had forgotten you've witnessed me shooting a peice of steel at 150yds which is actually a little smaller than a standard pepper popper. :D

[ToddG]

I'm still waiting for Trijicon to introduce a Big Dot front sight on a conventional sight picture. Square up the top of the front sight some. Craft a notched rear sight to match, and then, perhaps, the Big Dot would be more viable without sacrificing precision.

Along similar lines, I think a Small Dot front with a properly sized square notch (or better yet, Warren quasi u-notch) would be worth playing with. The front sight would still be wider than I'd normally prefer but especially for people with failing eyesight it could be a better solution than typical 3-dot sights.

I've got no problem lining up the top of the Small Dot, but if they flattened it from, say, 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock that would be a bonus.

And if frogs had wings...

[Robb Jensen]

Along similar lines, I think a Small Dot front with a properly sized square notch (or better yet, Warren quasi u-notch) would be worth playing with. The front sight would still be wider than I'd normally prefer but especially for people with failing eyesight it could be a better solution than typical 3-dot sights.

I've got no problem lining up the top of the Small Dot, but if they flattened it from, say, 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock that would be a bonus.

And if frogs had wings...

I installed at set kinda like your describing for one of my customers. It was the smaller front night sight dot with a 10-8 rear sight. IIRC this was on a Glock 19. He has poor vision and the dot fills up almost the entire notch.

[sigmundsauer]

I installed at set kinda like your describing for one of my customers. It was the smaller front night sight dot with a 10-8 rear sight. IIRC this was on a Glock 19. He has poor vision and the dot fills up almost the entire notch.

That's why I've not messed with the idea yet, until Trijicon (or someone else) introduces a wider notch rear sight.

Frankly, I've not found standard [white outline] night sights wanting in either speed or accuracy. But a brighter, more visible front sight is always a good thing, so methinks.

Tim

[JohnN]

Personally, I don't think that 24/7 sights make a good all purpose option. After using Big dots for around 6 months I didn't feel they gave me the visual input needed for 15 yards and beyond especially on a partially covered target as is common in USPSA and IDPA. For a flash sight picture in an up close defensive situation however they would be hard to beat. Even though my eyesight is far from what it once was I am still clinging to my 10-8 rear sight and point shooting at 5 yards and in.

[misanthropist]

The point is that quite a few people who can shoot like that have tried the XS sights and found them worse. The "personal preference" thing is a bit of a smoke screen. There are explainable deficiencies with the XS system. So if those deficiencies don't bother you then sure, the XS sights are fine. But that doesn't make them better.

I have a few students each year that do pretty well with XS sights. But there are certain things those students clearly struggle with that they shouldn't, and a big part of the problem is the inherently imprecise sight picture you get from the rear XS sight unless you spend a lot of time lining it up perfectly (which gets back to what gotm4 said). I don't beat students up over it, but I do point it out. Some rethink their commitment to XS, some don't.

I am 100% sure this is true...I think I was not clear in my post because that is approximately what I was getting at.

I have NO doubt that the big dot systems do not work as well for accurate shooting as more traditional three-dot or Warren-style 2-dots.

I guess what I meant was that although I don't doubt GM4 at all, to film him running a different car in the quarter mile than JY and beating him would not NECESSARILY prove the car was better. JY might not know how to drive stick, say, or he might leave the car in neutral when he got the green light. The ideal thing would be for one guy to drive both cars and compare the times.

But I am also confident that even if the same driver/shooter were used, the results would not be good for the big dots, and part of this confidence comes from the fact that guys like GM4 (and you) tell me it is so.

I don't own any Big Dots myself, and I probably will never have sufficient personal experience with them to really know for certain. So I have to trust in the opinions of more experienced shooters. I did not intend to imply that it was a matter of personal preference so much as a vote of confidence in the experienced preferences of specific, accomplished shooters.

[Lee Indy]

heinie straight 8s. best sights ever made that being said id throw these on a G26 in a heartbeat but not on anything with a longer sight radius

[Robb Jensen]

JY might not know how to drive stick,

There's interweb video of that too! :eek:

[misanthropist]

There's interweb video of that too! :eek:

Yeah, I thought about various analogies before I settled on that one!

[Heavy Metal]

Originally Posted by misanthropist
JY might not know how to drive stick,

http://www.dahmus.org/blogimg/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[misanthropist]

Yeah...although come to think of it I should probably zip it. If I were driving anywhere and somebody started shooting at me, I probably wouldn't suddenly turn in to a superhero. I'd probably blow a shift pretty hard myself...too busy worrying about what I was doing to the upholstery, I would guess. I am just highly prone to flippant sarcasm, even on subjects way over my experience level.

I am not a fan of his teachings but that does not mean I think I could do better on any front.

[JHC]

I have a few students each year that do pretty well with XS sights. But there are certain things those students clearly struggle with that they shouldn't, and a big part of the problem is the inherently imprecise sight picture you get from the rear XS sight unless you spend a lot of time lining it up perfectly (which gets back to what gotm4 said). I don't beat students up over it, but I do point it out. Some rethink their commitment to XS, some don't.

Like hit that 10-12 yard head shot. Too close to use the 12:00 for "precision" as doctrine prescribes at 25 yards but too far for the simple cover it and blast.

I dedicated myself to these on a several Glocks for several years shooting, at least 5K rounds a year with them and I never could master consistency with them past 12-15 yards. More than a few times, I managed brag-able groups out at 25 yards with them from a rest but it required intense effort. Next day out it might be a soccer ball sized group.

When I discovered a mono-vision contact lense option and I could again see a sharp front sight, Warren Tactical sets replaced my BDs.

The BD mixed with a notch is better for the left/right alignment in my experience but the vertical with the rounded sight remains a challenge.

[skyugo]

alright.. just gave the little 26 a nice shakedown.. couple boxes of ammo.
i like the sights on this gun. for most defensive use they're quite good. i don't have a lot of desire to put them on my G19 though, as i shoot some IPSC type stuff with it.

i did manage to shoot 4" group at 50 feet, pretty fast, with the 26 today. it was about 3" to the left, os i think i've gotta line these things up a little better.

i am LOVING the 2 dot thing for low light though. i think the 19 may well be getting a set of straight-8's soon.

[tpd223]

I have the 24/7 Big Dots on most of my Glocks, and I shoot better with them in many situations than with standard sights.

I have old guy eyes and often have trouble even seeing my front sight on standard sights, but I don't choose to mess with my vision since at distance I'm a bit better than 20/10.

For me, my eyes, and the fact that I work night shift patrol, the BDs work and they work very well. I can actually see my front sight in every lighting condition I have run in to. I have BDs on my AA kit .22 trainer for more trigger time, and also modified an air soft pistol just so I could run FOF using BDs.

When I am at work my chances of even being able to see a target at 100-150 are slim. In broad daylight I know that I can hit out to the 150 with these sights, but I know I'm slower as well.

If I'm shooting matches, or going some place in the day time where I might need to stretch the pistol, like the mall, I'll take my other G17 or my G34 with me instead since they have standard sights.

The squared top front and notch rear BD sight is something I have also often thought would be a good idea.

[Dan Goodwin]

Has anyone installed a set of the "Old Man Sights" per Erich Gelhaus' article last year in SWAT? If I recall correctly that involves installing an XS front sight of either size and punching out a 10-8, Warren or Novak sight with a 3/8th ball end mill cutter (that for the BDT, believe).

At 50, and wearing either one vision contacts or trifocal invisalign specs, the idea has merit now that presbyopia has taken hold.:(

At a department with a goodly number of LEOs on the back side of 40, this could help a lot. Standard 3-dot sights on our SIGs and G27s are problematic for we fogeys.

Gotta find some used sights to cobble a set together for one of my personal pistols first.

[NCPatrolAR]

Has anyone installed a set of the "Old Man Sights" per Erich Gelhaus' article last year in SWAT? If I recall correctly that involves installing an XS front sight of either size and punching out a 10-8, Warren or Novak sight with a 3/8th ball end mill cutter (that for the BDT, believe).

At 50, and wearing either one vision contacts or trifocal invisalign specs, the idea has merit now that presbyopia has taken hold.:(

At a department with a goodly number of LEOs on the back side of 40, this could help a lot. Standard 3-dot sights on our SIGs and G27s are problematic for we fogeys.

Gotta find some used sights to cobble a set together for one of my personal pistols first.

Several years ago I tried running a Big Dot (later a small dot) front with a 10-8 rear that had been cut out to around .156. While it worked slightly better than the standard shallow V rear that XS sends out; I still didnt like the lack in accuracy I was seeing in the sights and ditched them after 4 months or so.

If given my choice, I tend to prefer a straight 8 formated sight and go with it whenever possible.

[Robb Jensen]

Has anyone installed a set of the "Old Man Sights" per Erich Gelhaus' article last year in SWAT? If I recall correctly that involves installing an XS front sight of either size and punching out a 10-8, Warren or Novak sight with a 3/8th ball end mill cutter (that for the BDT, believe).

At 50, and wearing either one vision contacts or trifocal invisalign specs, the idea has merit now that presbyopia has taken hold.:(

At a department with a goodly number of LEOs on the back side of 40, this could help a lot. Standard 3-dot sights on our SIGs and G27s are problematic for we fogeys.

Gotta find some used sights to cobble a set together for one of my personal pistols first.

This is why I've put off getting Lasik. I'll be 40 in 2 months and everyone I know older than 35 who had Lasik needed reading glasses. I wear Acuvue Oasis contact lenses and I'm corrected to 20/20. These are the most comfortable lenses I've ever had. Many times they are so compfortable that when getting ready to sleep I almost forget to remove them.

But this is also why I dislike 3 dot sights, especially white outline same color dot sights. I have one set of 3 dot Warren sights (on my Glock 22 Gen 4), rear has no white outlines and the tritium is yellow and harder to see, the front is a bigger dot and green with a white outline. I find these much easier to shoot as speed accurately because the front doesn't wash out and is less 'busy'. On most guns I prefer the 2 dot Warrens which are like Heinie Straight Eights except that the rear dot is yellow and no white outline.
With most night sights (Trijicon and Warren) the front sight is .125" wide. If it were up to me I'd rather have it even thinner like .115" to .120" but I don't know if that's doable with the people who install the tritium tubes.

I'll see if I can find info on the 'old man' sights and keep that in mind for my older customers who are having trouble seeing the sights.

[tpd223]

The front sight on the Ameriglo "Operator" sights is thinner than standard (I have no idea how much thinner, but it's noticeable via Mk1 eyeball calibration), and the rear on these sets has no white outline on the tritium. A few of my friends have them on their guns at work, but that thinner front sights gets lost when I try and use it at speed, at distance they are very nice for getting a refined sight picture.


I am thinking about trying their version of old guy sights that Dave Spaulding had them build, standard post and notch sights, but the front has a tritium dot and the "SuperLuminova" in green or orange, the rear sights is black and can be had in an extra wide notch.

[JHC]

Has anyone installed a set of the "Old Man Sights" per Erich Gelhaus' article last year in SWAT? If I recall correctly that involves installing an XS front sight of either size and punching out a 10-8, Warren or Novak sight with a 3/8th ball end mill cutter (that for the BDT, believe).

At 50, and wearing either one vision contacts or trifocal invisalign specs, the idea has merit now that presbyopia has taken hold.:(



Dan,
If my earlier reference to "mono vision" contact lens set up is not clear, about two years ago now, at age 50, I picked up on the "trick" to have my full 20/20 correction contact in my non-dominant eye and a reduced correction contact in my dominant eye. This was an awesome change and I could again see a sharp front sight like I hadn't seen for some years.
I read about it somewhere, explained what I wanted to my optomotrist and she dialed in a contact at reduced correction.

She tried to give me one reduced to allow unaided reading but I explained how a sharp front sight was really what I wanted vs reading. So sometimes - depending on font size and lighting, I still use reading glasses. But at arms length, my front sights are sharp. It's not as good as young eyes but a whole lot better than fuzzed out front sights.

Now with an ACOG - either contact presents me a sharp recticle. Same for my limited peeks through $1000+ scopes. But with my economony Nikon African, the recticle is fuzzy with my reduced correction lens. I haven't really figured out why that is.

Joe

[JohnN]

With most night sights (Trijicon and Warren) the front sight is .125" wide. If it were up to me I'd rather have it even thinner like .115" to .120" but I don't know if that's doable with the people who install the tritium tubes.


Chuck Rogers made me a .115 front sight and had trijicon put a tritium lamp in it so I know it can be done. That said, it wasn't very bright because the lamp by necessity was a smaller diameter.

[GKoenig]

I have XS Big Dots on my G19 and love them. Even so, I haven't taken the plunge to start throwing them on other pistols I own. I carry the G19 a whole lot; but I will likely replace it with a 229 E2 when they come out.

My logic on the Big Dots is this - they make a lot of sense for a defensive firearm. In 95% of the scenarios I can envision using a pistol in anger, I can't really see engagement distances going out past 10-15 yards. I most definitely can't see anything beyond those sorts of distances requiring a tremendous amount of precision if they were to happen. Frankly - going beyond 12-15 yards as a civilian is likely pushing the definition of a defensive situation pretty tightly.

Within that 15 yard zone, my experience with the XS Big Dots has shown them to be significantly faster for me. Grant you, I need to shoot more and I could probably use a few more classes under my belt (who couldn't) and those two things might erode some of the XS advantage. Having said that, the interesting thing about them to me is that they seem really idiot proof and idiot proof is good when a lot of our training goes out the window when the shit hits the fan and adrenaline begins to **** with our thinking and motor skills. In my experience, the XS sights are damn close to having an Aimpoint or EO Tech on my handgun. I like that.

This is all an academic debate. The future IS having an Aimpoint (or MRD of some sort) mounted in a milled slot on the slide. My prediction is that this will be next big thing for pistols and we will all forget about debates like these over which iron sight is best.

[Al U. 5811]

I had Cory do the "Old Man sight job" on my Glock 17 last summer while at Gunsite for Vets carbine. I already had Heinie Slant Pro's on the gun. They work well for me.

[BWW]

I stumbled on this thread and am reading with great interest. I'm 43 and had great vision until about 3 years ago. Got my eyes checked and ended up with a script for bifocals. Great for reading but, suck for shooting. I have only started shooting pistols about 2 years ago. I have been to a couple of classes and am improving grip,stance, trigger control etc. But, until I figure out the best fix for reading my sights I won't make much improvement. So I'm very interested in what some of the instructors (gotm4,todd g,etc.) have advised thier students on this matter. Good to read how others have dealt with aging eyes. Maybe the mods could clean this up a bit and post it somehow to keep it up. I believe this is a huge topic relevent to many shooters. Sorry for the long post -- Brad W.