View Full Version : What do you expect from a FTF transaction?
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 16:12
So I went to trade a gun today and they guy wanted to record my drivers license number and my address before he would trade. I have noticed that a lot of Internet lawyers think that they somehow gain some sort of "protection" from doing this and advocate that everyone have some sort of receipt when doing a FTF sale.
I would love to know what extra protection you gain from this. I would also love to know why a private citizen thinks they have a right to collect my personal information and keep it on file just because they sold or traded an object. I leave less information at the Supermarket when I buy beer.
Come on Internet lawyers - let's hear your best reasons for these stupid receipts.
M_P
I would agree to having a "Bill of Sale" where there is an item description listing S/N and generic info about the firearm. I would also consent to listing my full name and a signature but absolutely wouldn't give my DL # or anything else of that nature.
So I went to trade a gun today and they guy wanted to record my drivers license number and my address before he would trade. I have noticed that a lot of Internet lawyers think that they somehow gain some sort of "protection" from doing this and advocate that everyone have some sort of receipt when doing a FTF sale.
I would love to know what extra protection you gain from this. I would also love to know why a private citizen thinks they have a right to collect my personal information and keep it on file just because they sold or traded an object. I leave less information at the Supermarket when I buy beer.
Come on Internet lawyers - let's hear your best reasons for these stupid receipts.
M_P
I have never done a FTF gun purchase (always bought mine through an FFL) so I have no comments. Personally, I would not allow anyone to take my DL # or home address (YMMV).
With that said, I personally would never sell a gun without involving an FFL dealer (and have a 4473 run). Why? First, you have no idea if the person is a felon or has a restraining order against them. Next, imagine what the media would do to you if you were the guy that sold the gun to the VA Tech shooter (or some other active shooter/killer). How well would that work out for you and your family? Think you would be sued into oblivion? You betcha!
C4
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 16:21
Yes, but why? You don't have to in my state. I don't understand what the point is.
M_P
Yes, but why? You don't have to in my state. I don't understand what the point is.
M_P
Is your post for me?
C4
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 16:27
I would not buy from someone who wanted to record information like that. If they want to "see" a DL with a quick glance then that is one thing. Actually writing down personal info is another. I don't know them personally and don't know what they plan on doing with that information.
FTF is only illegal if you knowingly sell to a prohibited person. If you didn't know they were, or they later use the gun in a crime there is nothing you did wrong per the law.
If someone wants to be "Safe" they should go through an FFL not surprise someone by whipping out a pen to take down private information.
I just check each others' driver's licenses for state of residence, ask if he/she is a felon or would be ineligible to purchase a firearm from an FFL apart from not being 21 for a pistol or pistol ammunition, exchange items for items and/or cash, then leave.
I refuse to deal with people who want copies of my driver's license or anything beyond just looking at my ID and asking a simple question.
And I hate the people who get on local firearm sales listings and turn into grumpy bastards just because you tell them it's completely legal for me to purchase a handgun from them FTF if we're same state residents and I'm not 21.
Also I am sure many of you who have done FTF transactions have at one point or another failed to verify the residence of the buyer/seller. Really, who cares apart from the ATF? Still, just in case it's a knowledgeable police officer or some government official, it's best to make sure.
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 16:37
Is your post for me?
C4
No, it was for the Mick.
I agree - if you want to feel "safe" or whatever, go to an FFL. If you want to do a FTF in a parking lot, don't fecking whip out paperwork and a pen.
M_P
I have done a couple FTF transactions where I was the one selling the firearm and always asked for a valid CHL and Drivers License. I also wrote a bill of sale that included the serial number and the names and signatures of both of us. Both times the person had no issues with presenting the CHL and DL, but I would have never taken any personal information other then their name. I understand fully that there is a chance that I could still be had by a felon but I also think that by doing this the chances of it are very small. I am aware of how the law reads but adding a couple of hurdles in the FTF process will only add 5 minutes to the transaction and makes me feel better about it.
Semper Fi
Tim
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 16:39
I just check each others' driver's licenses for state of residence, ask if he/she is a felon or would be ineligible to purchase a firearm from an FFL apart from not being 21 for a pistol or pistol ammunition, exchange items for items and/or cash, then leave.
I refuse to deal with people who want copies of my driver's license or anything beyond just looking at my ID and asking a simple question.
And I hate the people who get on local firearm sales listings and turn into grumpy bastards just because you tell them it's completely legal for me to purchase a handgun from them FTF if we're same state residents and I'm not 21.
Also I am sure many of you who have done FTF transactions have at one point or another failed to verify the residence of the buyer/seller. Really, who cares apart from the ATF? Still, just in case it's a knowledgeable police officer or some government official, it's best to make sure.
What qualifications do you possess that allow you to determine if the ID you were shown is valid? What systems do you use to verify the information? None? I thought so. So in Grant's scenario, they are still going to rip you apart while you meekly repeat - but I saw his drivers license!
M_P
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 16:42
I have done a couple FTF transactions where I was the one selling the firearm and always asked for a valid CHL and Drivers License. I also wrote a bill of sale that included the serial number and the names and signatures of both of us. Both times the person had no issues with presenting the CHL and DL, but I would have never taken any personal information other then their name. I understand fully that there is a chance that I could still be had by a felon but I also think that by doing this the chances of it are very small. I am aware of how the law reads but adding a couple of hurdles in the FTF process will only add 5 minutes to the transaction and makes me feel better about it.
Semper Fi
Tim
The law is quite clear - the burden is on the person buying, not selling, to be eligible to buy. You are not an FFL and not bound by those rules. ETA - as Belmont noted.
M_P
The law is quite clear - the burden is on the person buying, not selling, to be eligible to buy. You are not an FFL and not bound by those rules.
M_P
I am fully aware of that but it isn't against the law to request these things either. If you don't like what the seller is requesting then don't buy the firearm.
No, it was for the Mick.
I agree - if you want to feel "safe" or whatever, go to an FFL. If you want to do a FTF in a parking lot, don't fecking whip out paperwork and a pen.
M_P
Butt Pirate is more like it :D Thanks for the laugh.
Me personally, I don't care either, NV is no problem for FTF. Point of FTF buying a used weapon is to save money so who wants to give an FFL money? Got an NV ID? Yup. Got cash? Yup. Now you have a rifle. For pistols I would do the transfer at a cop shop so that the registration would be swapped over. In Clark County, Las Vegas, all pistols are required to be registered.
What would happen if I traded handguns with someone, and ended up receiving a stolen handgun?
What would happen if I used that gun to defend myself, and afterwards the police take the weapon into evidence and find out it was stolen?
I would consider showing a recent 4473, CHL, and a drivers license as the max, but I dont want info out there. Selling, I would want the gun out of my name with a 4473.
If I don't know the person I usually ask for a copy of DL & CWP, and have a bill of sale on hand, and we both sign and get a copy. I also bring a copy of my DL & CWP and will hand it over if asked.
I have done with with selling over the internet in the past as well, although not the last few times mostly out of laziness.
I also make all of this clear in emails beforehand so that those that don't like it can shop elsewhere. You don't like my way of doing business, you don't have to buy from me.
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 16:51
What would happen if I traded handguns with someone, and ended up receiving a stolen handgun?
What would happen if I used that gun to defend myself, and afterwards the police take the weapon into evidence and find out it was stolen?
So the guy in Dockers and a polo shirt, driving an Acura, probably stole the barely used 1911 then?
M_P
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 16:54
What qualifications do you possess that allow you to determine if the ID you were shown is valid? What systems do you use to verify the information? None? I thought so. So in Grant's scenario, they are still going to rip you apart while you meekly repeat - but I saw his drivers license!
M_P
Thats just it.
If you don't feel completely comfortable selling to a stranger then go through a FFL. No amount of CHL showing or DL writing down is going to prevent you from selling to a potential prohibited person. The burden is on the BUYER not the seller.
What qualifications do you possess that allow you to determine if the ID you were shown is valid? What systems do you use to verify the information? None? I thought so. So in Grant's scenario, they are still going to rip you apart while you meekly repeat - but I saw his drivers license!
M_P
Plausible deniability. Being lied to and doing something to which every indication to you that it's legal -will not get you in trouble with the law the majority of the time. Show me a case of someone being charged with an illegal sale because the person they sold a firearm to lied about their eligibility to buy a firearm, showed a fake ID, and the seller had no way of knowing the truth.
Now please, refrain from using racial slurs such as "mick" and for once take an actual stance on the subject you created a thread about. You attack the person who tries to take down your information for a sale/trade but then you attack me for defending the absence of such receipt methods.
Business_Casual
02-22-10, 17:05
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep it in mind, Mick.
M_P
THIS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON M4C. - YRAC
When I buy or sell a gun FTF, I require a signed bill of sale that reflects the make, model, caliber, serial number, date of transaction, price, and the full names and cities/counties of residence (verified by looking at the driver's license). Both parties get a copy.
The reason I require that as both a buyer and seller has nothing to do directly with any legalities of the transaction itself. It is so that I can establish (and remember) when I did, and didn't, possess the gun, so that if it was or is used in a crime I will have an easier time "proving my innocence." As we all know, proving innocence is not the way it's supposed to work in theory, but it's much easier than having to remember the exact date I sold it, who I sold it to, and trying to convince the police that I shouldn't be a suspect years down the road.
I think that approach is a reasonable balance. It covers everyones' butts without giving up too much personal information. I haven't had anyone object to it so far but, as Rob_S says, if somebody objects then I just won't do the deal.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep it in mind, Mick.
M_P
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6133/irishpirate.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/irishpirate.jpg/)
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 17:35
When I buy or sell a gun FTF, I require a signed bill of sale that reflects the make, model, caliber, serial number, date of transaction, price, and the full names and cities/counties of residence (verified by looking at the driver's license). Both parties get a copy.
The reason I require that as both a buyer and seller has nothing to do directly with any legalities of the transaction itself. It is so that I can establish (and remember) when I did, and didn't, possess the gun, so that if it was or is used in a crime I will have an easier time "proving my innocence." As we all know, proving innocence is not the way it's supposed to work in theory, but it's much easier than having to remember the exact date I sold it, who I sold it to, and trying to convince the police that I shouldn't be a suspect years down the road.
I think that approach is a reasonable balance. It covers everyones' butts without giving up too much personal information. I haven't had anyone object to it so far but, as Rob_S says, if somebody objects then I just won't do the deal.
Why not just go through a FFL then?
This thread needs to get back on track now.
YRAC
Because FFL holders usually want rather excessive amounts of money for 5 minutes of their time.
But really, what's the purpose of having this info from a transaction? If the gun gets traced back to you in some ungodly miracle the cops or ATF agents already know all this information. "Hurr durr I have proof that we made an illegal sale!". :confused:
Why not just go through a FFL then?
Because:
1. We have to travel to the FFL instead of a more convenient place.
2. Somebody has to pay the transfer fee.
3. There is more paperwork involved and government (or government accessible) recordation.
But really, what's the purpose of having this info from a transaction? If the gun gets traced back to you in some ungodly miracle the cops or ATF agents already know all this information. "Hurr durr I have proof that we made an illegal sale!". :confused:
I don't understand your point. A FTF transaction is legal if done between residents of the same state. The point of having the paperwork I describe is that it's a record that identifies the gun and when you bought it or sold it to, if nothing else, refresh your own memory as to when you bought it or sold it in case a trace sends somebody knocking on your door.
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 18:08
Because:
1. We have to travel to the FFL instead of a more convenient place.
2. Somebody has to pay the transfer fee.
3. There is more paperwork involved and government (or government accessible) recordation.
If the purpose is to secure yourself from future hassle with the gun going to someone else driving to a dealer doesnt seem like a big deal nor is the transfer fee.
Id feel more comfortable giving my info to the FFL than to some random stranger. Anyone who has bought from an FFL already is on the gov radar. If you are recording someones personal information to release yourself from some imaginary scenario in the future regarding the gov it kind of defeats the purpose if you are holding that info to give to the gov anyways should the need arise. Its no different than an FFL. The ATF or whoever can go back to the dealer the gun was bought from, and get the buyers information. If I bought a gun from you, and they go to you...you give them my information anyways? You have protection as the seller because the burden of the legality of the sale is on the buyer. Having a proof of sale with all my info does nothing for you, and if you really want to be "safe" go through an FFL. The buyer can just say I don't know what he's talking about and I never bought a gun from him. He had to have just made up some information from a random person or someone he knew about so it would look like he got rid of the gun when he really didn't. Then it becomes a he said she said type of thing. An FFL transfer is the only way to remove the gun from your name fully by having a 4473 to the gun going to someone else. A piece of paper with someones name on it, and the gun info is very weak in the legal sense.
The law is quite clear - the burden is on the person buying, not selling, to be eligible to buy. You are not an FFL and not bound by those rules. ETA - as Belmont noted.
M_P
+1, I did a FTF recently on a handgun with a person I didn't know personally. I asked if he was a VA resident and 21. As far as I'm concerned I did my due diligence. If he is a felon then HE just broke the law, not me.
Id feel more comfortable giving my info to the FFL than to some random stranger.
Did you even read the details of what I wrote? The form I use records your name and the city/county in which you reside. Not your full address, DOB, license number, or anything else. If you're so paranoid that you won't provide that then I would assume you wouldn't even show your driver's license to prove you're a resident of the same state. Many people, myself included, could memorize your address, DOB etc. just with a quick glance at your DL - then write it down right after we part ways.
If you are recording someones personal information to release yourself from some imaginary scenario in the future regarding the gov it kind of defeats the purpose if you are holding that info to give to the gov anyways should the need arise.
1. I don't record "personal" information. See above.
2. It's not an imaginary problem. If I'm the last guy in the FFL chain, guess who's door they're knocking on.
3. I'm not the government and the government can't audit or inspect my records as they routinely do with FFLs, including records of purchasers who have nothing to do with any trace or crime.
Having a proof of sale with all my info does nothing for you
Yes, it does. It establishes when I sold the gun, the identifying information of the gun, and the name and city/county of the purchaser. It recites and records the transaction. If you can't understand the value in that then there's nothing more I can do to explain it.
A piece of paper with someones name on it, and the gun info is very weak in the legal sense.
How would you know? Where are you licensed to practice law? I practice in Virginia and just this morning got a sizeable judgment based on nothing more than an agreement that two people signed, and the other guy wasn't even there to authenticate it. A "piece of paper with someone's name on it" can mean quite a bit.
I EXPECT the other person to understand we don't know each other and should show each other their ID/CHL.
A bill of sale signed by both parties should be made and each party retains a copy.
If you are paranoid about selling or buying something, go through retail channels.
+1, I did a FTF recently on a handgun with a person I didn't know personally. I asked if he was a VA resident and 21. As far as I'm concerned I did my due diligence. If he is a felon then HE just broke the law, not me.
Unlike the felon issue, the burden to not sell a gun to somebody from out of state is very much on you, so I hope you did something more than just "ask" if he was a VA resident ...
I have sold guns FTF with no paperwork whatsoever. I have also had a buyer fill out a 4473 for me to retain as a bill of sale. Most transactions are in the middle somewhere, an ID verification and a bill of sale that includes pertinent detail. It depends on the buyer, the vibe, and the things they say (or don't say).
Sellers need special training to recognize an ID? Few professions, even some dealing with positive ID of subjects, get such training. In fact, you may find that your local bartender is more likely to have been formally and thoroughly instructed on spotting a fake or altered DL than many public officials...including cops.
A seller that's hesitant about furnishing information about himself to a buyer should question whether or not he should be giving that buyer a gun.
A buyer that's hesitant about furnishing information about himself to a seller should question whether or not he should getting that gun from that buyer.
On the investigative side, determining legitimacy of buyer/seller claims of disposition or origin isn't rocket science. Having legit paperwork makes it easier. Not having paperwork might make for annoyance and inconvenience, but it doesn't result in your immediate incarceration. The what-ifs and imagined scenarios are worth contemplating, but the worries some manifest are a bit exaggerated.
Most statutes covering the transfer or firearms to prohibited persons include some sort of intent as an element of the offense.
In lieu of gathering specific information about a buyer, recording pertinents of the sale void of personal information in a disposition book might lend legitimacy to an innocent seller claim.
Gonna rant for a sec:
As a former 'civi' who used to do ftf and as a current ffl, my advice is to keep records of EVERY gun you buy and sell just as a current ffl. All you need is the make, model, s/n, name and address (only if not already known like a friend and family) You may very well help leo and the buyer if the gun turns up stolen or lost.
Forget the black helicopters. Cover yourself & assist leo!!
1. Where was the last 4473 that gun is tied to??
2. If you bought the gun new (4473) from your local sporting goods store and they come knocking and you tell them "I sold it to some 5'10" guy at the gunshow", the case is cold. The guy you sold it to cannot recover his stolen property unless he recorded the guns info and can prove it's his.
I once received a S&W wheel gun 8 years after it was stolen from my dad's car, only because we filed a report and I had the guns info for the pd report. If your remmy 700 30-06 bdl is swiped, what makes you think you are gonna get it back cuz you can identify a scratch on the stock....they made millions of bdl 700's in that cal.
3. If you buy a gun on a ftf and just hand off the $$$$...what happens if you sell down the road and a pawn shop eventually purchases the weapon and it turns up stolen?? Your name may be in the pipeline. Why not let leo follow the trail??
Cover yourself and keep simple records of every gun you buy and sell....for those who do not have a current inventory, do it now.
The way I see it, you exchange more information with a stranger in a car accident...
This is making a mountain out of a molehill...if you don't want to satisfy how someone wants to sell his/her firearm, then don't buy. YMMV.
...Cover yourself and keep simple records of every gun you buy and sell...
CYA - Sound advice.
I rarely do a private sale ( why would I want to sell a firearm? )
I have always gotten a signed bill of sale with their full name and signature and the firearm description and S/N. I won't sell without them showing me their CWP/CHL but I don't write anything down on it. I tell them this before they even show up (in my local classified listing -- I did a couple "cast" AR receivers I had lying around last year). Of course it could be a faked CWP but it would have to be pretty good since I know what they look like :-). While not foolproof, it is my way of making sure they are not a prohibited person (in Utah they supposedly run checks of all CWP holders against outstanding warrants, etc on a daily basis).
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-22-10, 22:10
Just out of curiosity, I've only done one FTF, back in the day, and it was prearranged that we meet at gunshow parking lot. Where do you guys do FTF transactions? Do you do it in cash or money-order/cashiers check?
Guns, cash and people I don't know make me nervous.
Belmont31R
02-22-10, 22:28
Did you even read the details of what I wrote? The form I use records your name and the city/county in which you reside. Not your full address, DOB, license number, or anything else. If you're so paranoid that you won't provide that then I would assume you wouldn't even show your driver's license to prove you're a resident of the same state. Many people, myself included, could memorize your address, DOB etc. just with a quick glance at your DL - then write it down right after we part ways.
1. I don't record "personal" information. See above.
2. It's not an imaginary problem. If I'm the last guy in the FFL chain, guess who's door they're knocking on.
3. I'm not the government and the government can't audit or inspect my records as they routinely do with FFLs, including records of purchasers who have nothing to do with any trace or crime.
Yes, it does. It establishes when I sold the gun, the identifying information of the gun, and the name and city/county of the purchaser. It recites and records the transaction. If you can't understand the value in that then there's nothing more I can do to explain it.
How would you know? Where are you licensed to practice law? I practice in Virginia and just this morning got a sizeable judgment based on nothing more than an agreement that two people signed, and the other guy wasn't even there to authenticate it. A "piece of paper with someone's name on it" can mean quite a bit.
Again if you are so paranoid go through an FFL, and it will put a 4473 with the new purchaser.
Its plain common sense some random "bill of sale" isn't concrete proof that a sale actually occurred. Its easy to fake. A 4473 at store is a lot more legal protection for the seller.
Its also common sense to keep your own records, and even print off any online communications, a phone number, etc. You can get information without making an awkward scene at the time of sale. Id be pissed if someone came to sell me a gun FTF, and then said give me such and such info or no sale without mentioning it beforehand.
Around here an FFL will do a transfer for $20-25.
BTW I've bought two guns from other residents of Texas, and they mailed them to me....;)
I might be doing a FTF on a lower receiver this weekend. Does anyone have a link to the actual laws regarding the FTF transfer. I read them a while back, but can't remember where.
Also, does someone already have a decent FTF form/receipt as a word document that you use. Something like:
I Jon Doe certify that I am a resident of the state of ...... and am selling this ..... with serial number ...... model ...... in good faith to Bobby Joe on this day of ..... for the price of .....etc.
signature
I Bobby Joe certify that I am 21 years of age and that I am not a felon and am a resident of the state of .....etc.
signature
Would that suffice you think to cover your butt?
I Jon Doe certify that I am a resident of the state of ...... and am selling this ..... with serial number ...... model ...... in good faith to Bobby Joe on this day of ..... for the price of .....etc.
signature
I Bobby Joe certify that I am 21 years of age and that I am not a felon and am a resident of the state of .....etc.
signature
Would that suffice you think to cover your butt?
It's actually more than you need. Just copy what you wrote into word and print it.
But first - look at your state laws. I think there are some backwards states that don't allow FTF gun sales.
Again if you are so paranoid go through an FFL, and it will put a 4473 with the new purchaser.
No paranoia here. I just don't want to try to go on memory when 10 years down the road a gun I used to own turns up at a crime scene and people start asking me when I sold it, and to whom. Having a piece of paper so I can a) remember the date I sold it and b) show a contemporaneous writing that tends to demonstrate that I'm not full of shit, both go a long way toward a brief - rather than long and uncomfortable - conversation with LE.
Its plain common sense some random "bill of sale" isn't concrete proof that a sale actually occurred.
Once again, I don' t know what you do or what world you live in, but a writing signed by the parties to a transaction means quite a bit to most judges in my neck of the woods. Neither courts nor investigating LE are looking for or expecting "concrete proof." That rarely exists in the world of mere mortals. If you have a writing that was created and signed at the time of the transaction, however, it will go a long way toward their believing you and not giving you a hard time. It also means you don't have to stand there with the police on your doorstep, scratching your head and trying to remember - I think I sold that one back in the fall of 2006 ... no wait, was it 2005? But I had another one like it too that I sold the year before ... crap ...
Its also common sense to keep your own records, and even print off any online communications, a phone number, etc. You can get information without making an awkward scene at the time of sale.
I do that, too.
Id be pissed if someone came to sell me a gun FTF, and then said give me such and such info or no sale without mentioning it beforehand.
I don't surprise people. I even e-mail them the form if they ask.
Around here an FFL will do a transfer for $20-25.
And if I'm buying a $250 .22 rifle, I just added 10% to the cost. No thanks.
BTW I've bought two guns from other residents of Texas, and they mailed them to me....;)
Other than violating federal law/postal regulations by mailing a gun, I don't see any problem with that.
John_Wayne777
02-23-10, 09:28
Why not just go through a FFL then?
I don't know how the FFL's are in your neck of the woods, but in mine they won't take a gun into their shop from a regular joe. Apparently the BATFE has been hassling them and they've pretty much all set a policy of not taking a gun onto their books if it didn't come from an FFL.
...so a transfer isn't always possible.
Business_Casual
02-23-10, 09:30
I might be doing a FTF on a lower receiver this weekend. Does anyone have a link to the actual laws regarding the FTF transfer. I read them a while back, but can't remember where.
Also, does someone already have a decent FTF form/receipt as a word document that you use. Something like:
I Jon Doe certify that I am a resident of the state of ...... and am selling this ..... with serial number ...... model ...... in good faith to Bobby Joe on this day of ..... for the price of .....etc.
signature
I Bobby Joe certify that I am 21 years of age and that I am not a felon and am a resident of the state of .....etc.
signature
Would that suffice you think to cover your butt?
Why would a piece of paper you made up on your computer "cover your butt" anyway? If the law doesn't require it, it can't afford you any protection under the law - there is no requirement for documentation in a face-to-face sale of private property.
I could write "Irishluck73 is a wanker" on a sheet of paper and sign my name, but that's not why he's a wanker.
M_P
Business_Casual
02-23-10, 09:32
No paranoia here. I just don't want to try to go on memory when 10 years down the road a gun I used to own turns up at a crime scene and people start asking me when I sold it, and to whom.
Why? Is not remembering a crime now? Why not just say "I don't remember, sorry guys" and shut the door? The cops will have to solve the crime some other way and how many times have we seen gun registration schemes fail as crime-solving tools anyway?
All we are doing, but agreeing to documentation of private sales, is no different than carrying a rabbit's foot to the track. It is superstition plain and simple. And since when, in the history of mankind, has a lawyer (dbrowne1) ever said less documentation is better? So the fact that you don't agree has more to do with your personality type than any other factor. ;)
M_P
John_Wayne777
02-23-10, 09:34
Here's my 2 cents:
I've only done FTF transactions with friends, and there have been precious few of them. If I was doing one with somebody I did a deal with through the equipment exchange, I would have as a condition of the sale a document both of us would have to sign documenting the particulars of the sale. Date, names, place we live (not full address) manufacturer, model, and serial number of the gun, statement on my behalf that to the best of my knowledge the gun was originally purchased legally and statement on the buyer's behalf that they are legally able to purchase a handgun in Virginia.
Sign, date by the signature, and that goes into my records...mainly in case the gun is stolen or used in a crime that when the cops come knocking on my door I can show that I got rid of the gun on X date to Y individual. Yes, officer, you can have a copy. Wait right there and I'll make you one. Have a nice day!
...and there endeth my involvement with the gun.
FTF is only illegal if you knowingly sell to a prohibited person. If you didn't know they were, or they later use the gun in a crime there is nothing you did wrong per the law.
This is a great theory, but in reality won't happen. You WILL have to defend yourself in civil court. Yes you could win, but it really depends on whether or not the jury wants to punish someone (anyone).
If you doubt that I am right, just ask the gun dealers that did EVERYTHING by the book and got called into court to defend their actions by all the families that lost loved ones.
C4
Because:
1. We have to travel to the FFL instead of a more convenient place.
2. Somebody has to pay the transfer fee.
3. There is more paperwork involved and government (or government accessible) recordation.
1. Correct.
2. You can split it.
3. Do you really think the Govt doesn't know you own guns?
C4
Because FFL holders usually want rather excessive amounts of money for 5 minutes of their time.
But really, what's the purpose of having this info from a transaction? If the gun gets traced back to you in some ungodly miracle the cops or ATF agents already know all this information. "Hurr durr I have proof that we made an illegal sale!". :confused:
Some do, but some also understand what you are doing. Any smart FFL dealer, WANT'S gun owners in their shop.
We charge $20 for the transfer.
C4
Business_Casual
02-23-10, 09:39
Sign, date by the signature, and that goes into my records...mainly in case the gun is stolen or used in a crime that when the cops come knocking on my door I can show that I got rid of the gun on X date to Y individual. Yes, officer, you can have a copy. Wait right there and I'll make you one. Have a nice day!
...and there endeth my involvement with the gun.
So let's say you do that and they guy signing it lies to you about everything written there. How is that any different than no paper at all?
M_P
Wherever you may fall on the FTF documentation spectrum, from none to extensive, please be up front with your requirements.
If posting online (here, arfcom, etc.) to sell FTF, please include any requirements (showing ID, recording info, bill of sale, blood test, etc.) so that there are no surprises.
No one likes surprises while trying to complete a deal.
I could write "Irishluck73 is a wanker" on a sheet of paper and sign my name, but that's not why he's a wanker.
M_P
What's a guy got to do to get a break around here?!?! Quit staring at my avatar ;)
When I sell a gun I have a form that has:
Date of sale:
Make/Model of Gun:
Serial #:
Purchase Price:
Customer's Name & Address:
Customer's FOID Card # (gotta love Illinois):
Seller's Signature:
Buyer's Signature:
This allows me to keep record of the sale since that gun is still registered in my name. If john doe decides to go shoot someone a few years from now and they recover the gun and run it..it will come back to ME. So when the detective comes to question me about why my gun was used in a shooting I can pull out my bill of sale and say "nope, I sold that gun to John Doe on XXX date for XX price and here's his info and signature."
MarshallDodge
02-23-10, 10:16
So let's say you do that and they guy signing it lies to you about everything written there. How is that any different than no paper at all?
M_P
I don't like to give out my information anymore than the next guy but I do like the assurance of having something in writing. I have a bill of sale that asks if the person making the purchase is legitimately allowed to own a gun, the model number and serial number, and a signature. I may ask to see some ID but only if I don't feel 100% confident in the individual. I do not take down his address, DL, or CCP info.
Every time I see a small claims case on TV, the judge asks if the parties involved have something in writing. Then the question becomes- Are they doing this for their health or does a signature on a piece of paper really mean something?
Every time I see a small claims case on TV, the judge asks if the parties involved have something in writing. Then the question becomes- Are they doing this for their health or does a signature on a piece of paper really mean something?
Writings - what they say and who has signed them - absolutely matter. In real courts, not just TV courts. They also matter in less formal settings like a LEO investigating a crime who needs to follow the bread crumbs of a gun and its serial number.
Of course it's not a crime to forget, and there is no "requirement" to document private sales in most states. There's no requirement that you wipe your ass after you use the bathroom, either. There's also no requirement to have an attorney's fees provision in your company's form contract, but I can't tell you how many people come to me and whine about not being able to get their attorney's fees on top of what they're owed when their client becomes a deadbeat. Documents, and the words in them, matter.
Documenting your private sale is probably not going to be the difference in whether you get charged in a crime or whether you get sued. It's just going to make your life a lot easier if something does happen.
Sign, date by the signature, and that goes into my records...mainly in case the gun is stolen or used in a crime that when the cops come knocking on my door I can show that I got rid of the gun on X date to Y individual. Yes, officer, you can have a copy. Wait right there and I'll make you one. Have a nice day!
...and there endeth my involvement with the gun.
That pretty much sums it up.
Great info for a new seller.
Great info for a new seller.
All of the FTF laws are state dependent. Do your research prior to making a sale or when purchasing a firearm from someone in your state.
Your mortgage is a "piece of paper with your name on it" So is every other contract or agreement you have ever signed in your life. To sell a gun without something in writing is foolish and asking for trouble. Its that easy.
I'm used to seeing or being asked to see a ccw permit and usually that's good enough. I don't have a problem with the b.o.s like some do, I just think it's better for everyone involved for that stipulation to be in the original ad so there's no surprises. If I'm buying from someone on a board I frequent whom I recognize..... that makes things alot easier.
In AZ nowadays I get info on the buyer for anything "asault" like... AR lowers etc. you never know if some dirtbag is just moving stuff (read: Mexinarco). I also walked away from a sale where the guy had 1300.00 cash in hand when he said/repeated that he was buying this "weapon" for his "dad" who lived in another state. First of all it's not a f'ing "weapon" second of all I've heard/read of "agents" saying things like this before buying/entrapping sellers. Anyhoo....
The #1 thing I "expect" from a ftf is that it always feels and looks like we're doing some sort of drug deal. Where we park in the parking lot,
exchanging "items", the handing off of cash etc.:D
To me, showing proof of residency and signing a receipt is not too much to ask for ftf sale of a gun with a serial # on it. I would never send copies of my id to any private citizen, nor would I ask someone to provide me with a copy for my records. I do, however, want to verify that they are who they say they are and document that they claimed to be legal to own the gun when the transaction took place. They could obviously lie or provide false id, but at least I feel like I did my part to not provide a firearm to someone who wasn't legal. Covering my backside is a good thing, but cutting down on the likelihood that I am arming some felon, Mexinarco, wannabe pirate whatever is important to me too, regardless of who the burden of proof is legally assigned to.
Wherever you may fall on the FTF documentation spectrum, from none to extensive, please be up front with your requirements.
If posting online (here, arfcom, etc.) to sell FTF, please include any requirements (showing ID, recording info, bill of sale, blood test, etc.) so that there are no surprises.
No one likes surprises while trying to complete a deal.
Agreed.
I will admit to not always doing that, however, simply because it happens so rarely. I have sold quite a few guns online over the years and very, very few have resulted in local interest.
The last time I recall the guy emailed me that he was interested and local, and I replied "cool, by the way I'm going to want a copy of CWP, copy of DL, and a signed BOS". I have never had a buyer object to this in a FTF local deal.
spankaveli
02-23-10, 14:11
Cash & Carry
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