Insurance Question - Property Damage, Subrogation and an Act of God?

[Gutshot John]

Well after the big snowfall our neighbors have had pillars of ice/ice dams growing along their downspouts/gutters and probably weighed close to 1000lbs. After two weeks one of them fell across our property line and crushed our fence. His insurance said I had to file a claim with my insurance. My insurance said it was an "act of god" and that we would owe a $500 deductible.

Now I've got three questions:

First his downspouts/gutters were recently installed and I'm skeptical that the job was down properly. I clean out my gutters every year and my downspouts were completely ice free. His on the other hand were ugly. I don't know that he was negligent, but I don't have $500 for the deductible either.

Second why wouldn't his insurance cover the damage it caused to my property?

What does "act of god" mean from a subrogration perspective? I was under the impression that an "act of god" meant that the insurance didn't have to pay diddly, like flooding etc.

[dbrowne1]

I deal with insurance and bonding companies all the time, and the only consistent theme that comes out is that they will do everything possible to deny or delay responsibility. Don't accept "no" from the neighbor's insurer.

So your dumbass neighbor fails to maintain his gutters, fails to remediate a hazard that is open and obvious for two weeks, and his gutter predictably fails and damages your property - but it's not his fault and your insurance has to pay? This isn't a tree on your neighbor's lawn that blew over and hit your fence. That would be an act of God. This is your neighbor allowing a hazard to form and persist that predictably caused damage. It's his problem and therefore his carrier's problem.

That's my seat-of-the-pants opinion, not legal advice.

[mtneer13]

I deal with insurance and bonding companies all the time, and the only consistent theme that comes out is that they will do everything possible to deny or delay responsibility. Don't accept "no" from the neighbor's insurer.

So your dumbass neighbor fails to maintain his gutters, fails to remediate a hazard that is open and obvious for two weeks, and his gutter predictably fails and damages your property - but it's not his fault and your insurance has to pay? This isn't a tree on your neighbor's lawn that blew over and hit your fence. That would be an act of God. This is your neighbor allowing a hazard to form and persist that predictably caused damage. It's his problem and therefore his carrier's problem.

That's my seat-of-the-pants opinion, not legal advice.


i will chime in on this matter...my parents neighbor's living behind them are renters...the owner of the home is the inhabitant's brother...anyway...a dead tree that they have known about for years decided to fall last spring...said tree came a foot from mom and dad's house and tore down two sections of their privacy fence...

mom and dad called their insurance company and THEY were responsible for the tree as it fell on their property even though the tree originated on the neighbor's property...my parents insurance (nationwide) told them they would have to pay to fix it all, luckily it didn't hit the house...i was at their house the day they called the insurance company and i told the nationwide agent if i were responsible for the damage, i would drop them like a bad habit...

long story longer, the owner of the home works for the city and cut the tree up since he knew it was dead and should've been taken out years ago and my parents didn't have to eat their deductible...dad and i fixed the fence and they cut the tree up...that's why when we build our home, i cut every tree imaginably close to the house...

my buddy had a tree that he cut down hit his house about 5 yrs ago and $43K later his house was fixed...he was cutting trees, as a small one hit his home and a larger one hit his place after a come-a-long chain broke and fell back onto his house...the insurance company told him to cut any tree that looked like it would hit his house after the first one hit...

insurance, in case "shit" happens...they love that premium and hate paying anything out!!!

[EzGoingKev]

If it were a case for subro your insurance company would go after your neighbor's insurance company to recoup the funds.

How do you get along with your neighbor and what kind of person is he/she/they?

[Gutshot John]

How do you get along with your neighbor and what kind of person is he/she/they?

Pretty well we're friendly (he's invited me to his hunting cabin) and I'd hate to see this adversely impact things. He doesn't seem like an asshole, but he seems evasive about taking responsibility. If it were my gutter I'd pay.

About six years ago I had a tree that was struck by lightning and fell into the other neighbor's yard. It didn't do any damage (other than to a hedge) but after a deductible my insurance paid to have the tree cut up and removed.

[JackOSU]

First and foremost insurance policies are not a maintenance policy. If this were to be the case then the cost would be through the roof. It is unfortunate, but his/neighbor's policy is not responsible for taking care of your damaged property due to weather or "acts of god" etc. It's just like the tree situation. This is why you have your own policy in force.

Having to be out of your deductible and then more than likely losing your claim free discount, which will cause your rates to increase over a 3-5 year period depending on provider, has the real NET cost quite a bit in the end. I would make sure you ask how much savings your claim free discount saves you per year and if you file a claim how many years it removes the discount from your policy.

Now many places have categorized these recent storms as a catostrophic (CAT) loss and a claim will still be a claim on your record, but not cause you to lose any claim free discounts. All companies differ so it's best to get the agent involved with the claims department and have things drawn out. An agent worth their salt should be able to get you a definate answer with 24 hours for you to make the best decision for yourself.

I would talk to your neighbor and see if there is something that can be done to settle things. I think him at least paying for half the cost of repairing your fence is the least he can do. Depending on the serverty of damage I would not file a claim if the damage is less than a grand due to the above mentioned discounts being removed and you in the end being out the same money or more and then having a claim on your record.

This is the nature of the beast and how all companies are filed within their state. I know it sounds biased, but the insurance company should not be viewed as the problem. It usually preventative maintenance or the lack of understanding of what the policy is intending for. I hope things go well for you and hopefully you can work something out with your neighbor. I would say the ventilation in his attic and possible inproper installation of the gutters could have caused the ice damming to be more severe, but in the end it is weather causing things.

[TommyG]

Gutshot - If the loss is not too large and you can't work it out with the neighbor and/or his insurance carrier, I would think long and hard about putting a claim in with your homeowner's carrier.

In addition to possibly losing a discount, it is a loss on your record. If you have another, totally legitimate, loss of your own in the coming years you could risk huge premium increases or even cancellation.

Have a long talk with your agent about this before you make a claim. Find out what the immediate implications are on your record. Ask about future losses and what they do if you have two or three over a few years. You might be surprised at what you find out.

I wouldn't use my homeowner's policy even for a loss that I caused at my own property unless it was very large.

[MarshallDodge]

So did it destroy your entire fence or just a piece of it?

What if you were to ask him to help with the cost of the repairs and some help do perform the repair?

[Gutshot John]

Claim was already filed though there is no estimate or payout yet so I suppose I can withdraw it.

It was just a piece of the fence.

I'd be happy to do the work.

[Safetyhit]

Pretty certain it was not an act of God in the legal aspect. Property owners are required to maintain their property and safeguard against such accidents.

I would appeal the ruling somehow.

[bobvila]

It was just a piece of the fence.

I'd be happy to do the work.

What kind of fence is it? If it is a wood fence it should not even be close to the deductible to do it yourself.

[Gutshot John]

What kind of fence is it? If it is a wood fence it should not even be close to the deductible to do it yourself.

it's chain link.

[Gutshot John]

Confirmed as act of god. The only way neighbor had liability is if I spoke to him and told him to fix the problem though in the future he has been given fair notice.

Oh well.

[chadbag]

Depending on how you want to keep neighborly relations, this is what small claims court is for. He is liable for damages his actions or inactions (failure to maintain for example) cause. Insurance is what he carries to help him cover these liabilities. Insurance does not make the legal determination of liability. The courts do that (if needed).

[Safetyhit]

Confirmed as act of god.

Shop owners in nearby Philadelphia are required to keep ice off all rooftops and awnings, because if it falls on someone then it's on the property owner for failing to maintain. This is law just over the bridge there in PA where you are, see it on the news every year. Now if they want to try to say that an ice covered gutter falling on someone or their car would somehow be exempt, I would love to see the legal logic behind that.

I know there could be a city ordinance, but I see the two being one in the same no matter how it's spun. I agree with eguns, you may to need to consider legal action if you are not offered the common courtesy of at least a cost splitting arrangement.

[Gutshot John]

I'm going to politely ask to split the deductible but I'm not going to make a federal case over it for the sake of neighborhood harmony. I really do love where I live and at this point it is only part of the problem. Today I came home to find a complicating factor.

After heavy snow for the day it added to the existing weight and caused another section of the same fence to come down (I live on a hill on the edge of a retaining wall) and gravity coupled with several feet of snow behind the chain link caused it to fold over. This wasn't his fault assuming the initial crush damage didn't cause the 50' of intervening fence to fail. Essentially the fence is standing between the two points so it didn't entirely fail but one section of the fence is horizontal rather than vertical. I hope that makes sense.

So one way or the other the fence needs to be repaired. It sucks but is all part of owning a home.

Thanks all for the input.

[Safetyhit]

I'm going to politely ask to split the deductible but I'm not going to make a federal case over it for the sake of neighborhood harmony. I really do love where I live...


I can completely relate to this feeling, especially as a father. There are priorities. But fair is fair and it will always be in the back of your mind if you don't proactively try to resolve it.

As you state, do what your gut tells you is right while trying to live happily at home. Good luck.