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View Full Version : HK IAR/416 moving forward. FN's complaints dismissed.



The Dumb Gun Collector
02-22-10, 22:46
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/news/fnh-usa-and-colt-defense-out-testing-to-continue-on-the-close-bolt-hk-iar-556mm/?right=news


Sorry if this was posted elsewhere....



Congressional investigators have sided with the Marine Corps in a dispute over the service’s infantry automatic rifle program, calling the competition fair and clearing the way for the service to choose its preferred weapon.

Weapons maker FN Herstal protested the Corps’ Oct. 23 decision to eliminate the company from the competition on grounds that its IAR failed to meet requirements in testing, according to a Dec. 15 report by the Government Accountability Office obtained by Marine Corps Times. The Corps ultimately chose the IAR made by Heckler & Koch, spurning FN and Colt Defense, which competed two weapons for the contract.

The IAR competition is not considered complete, however, as the Corps intends to perform more tests on H&K’s weapon throughout the year ahead. H&K’s weapon was chosen in a “down-select,” meaning that while the Corps will continue assessing it, there are no guarantees H&K will supply the 4,100 IARs the Corps plans to buy.

All four 5.56mm weapons tested carry 30-round magazines and were viewed as possible replacements for many of the M249 squad automatic weapons the Corps has fielded since the 1980s. The preferred H&K model is a variant of the HK416 assault rifle, which uses a spring-buffered short-stroke gas-piston system and is the sole finalist that fires only from the closed-bolt position.

In its protest, FN claimed that during tests its weapon’s barrel “was infected by copper residue,” effectively skewing the results, according to the GAO. FN, maker of the SAW, also blamed the Corps for failing to properly tighten the pistol grips that fell off two of its three test models during extreme cold-weather trials conducted at minus-25 degrees.

The specifics of FN’s protest shifted throughout November and December as the company and the Corps sought to bolster their cases, the GAO said. FN “abandoned its initial protest argument that the [Corps] may not have performed required regular maintenance,” the GAO said. After reviewing additional documents provided by the Corps, the company protested on several other grounds, including that the Corps was mistaken in saying more than one FN pistol grip fell off and that the grips from other companies in the competition also fell off and were not similarly rejected.

“These arguments … constitute independent grounds of protest,” GAO acting general counsel Lynn Gibson wrote in the report. “Since the basis of protest stems from the protester’s review of the [Marine Corps] test report and other documents … we find the arguments raised in FN’s comments to be untimely.”

The GAO hasn’t said whether FN’s later complaints were legitimate or investigated. Company officials with FN and H&K did not respond to requests for comment. Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokeswoman for Marine Corps Systems Command, said the Corps would not comment on FN’s protest.

The service has ordered 24 more H&K IARs to be tested in locations ranging from Panama to the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center and Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center in California, Marine officials have said.

Eventually, the Corps plans reduce the number of SAWs in the service from about 10,000 to 8,000 as it rolls out the IAR. Each infantry company will retain six SAWs to employ as the tactical situations dictate, but the IAR will replace the SAW in many patrol situations, Marine officials have said.

Source: Dan Lamothe for Marine Corps Time

JSantoro
02-23-10, 02:00
"...spurning FN and Colt Defense,..."

I always get a kick at the little things authors do to satisfy their yearnings for their own editorial byline.

John_Wayne777
02-23-10, 06:46
I thought the USMC commandant asked why the IAR thing was even happening a few weeks ago...which would seem to indicate to me (who admittedly knows nothing about the USMC's acquisitions and adoption process) that the IAR may be an endangered species.

JSantoro
02-23-10, 10:18
It was regarding a specific aspect of the program, not the program as a whole. Everybody knows that something needs to either replace the JamMaster 5000 (AKA the SAW) or at least reduce it's role as the go-to gun in the role it currently provides.

This isn't the F22. There's an actual, quantifiable, CURRENT need for this, and the only folks that want to queer it up are those who are tasting their own sour grapes over the fact that their platform failed.

gumby223
06-09-10, 07:32
JamMaster 5000, I like that...lol

Boss Hogg
06-09-10, 09:09
"FN, maker of the SAW, also blamed the Corps for failing to properly tighten the pistol grips that fell off two of its three test models during extreme cold-weather trials conducted at minus-25 degrees."

The devil is in the details. If you're going to send a weapon to be tested, you have to get everything right.

variablebinary
06-10-10, 02:13
I am willing to wager the majority of these solicitations and awards are followed by formal protests by the losers.

C-grunt
06-10-10, 02:38
Wouldnt a mag fed, closed bolt design be kinda counter productive for a SAW type weapon?

I had my fair share of problems with my SAW in my first tour but the overall concept I think is great. A light weight belt fed machinegun.

Ive always thought a scaled down M240 would make a great SAW.

JSantoro
06-10-10, 08:21
Not when you look at it from the specific "automatic rifleman" standpoint. Only real "what're we gonna do, now?" thing is ammo-sourcing. I'm mostly just happy to see we're getting away from such a sloppy gun as the SAW.

SAW isn't going away, either. It'll still be around, just not in a fire-team role.

Cagemonkey
06-10-10, 17:24
Considering the IAR has a telescoping buttstock, 16.5" barrel and only weighs 7.9 LBS empty, I see can of worms being opened. Why would a regular grunt rifleman want to carry an M16A4 with a fixed A2 buttstock, 20" barrel and weighing the same if not more. Never mind not having a FA capability. Is the MC using the IAR program as a back door loophole the equip infantry Marine with a HK416?

Caeser25
06-10-10, 17:35
Wouldnt a mag fed, closed bolt design be kinda counter productive for a SAW type weapon?

I had my fair share of problems with my SAW in my first tour but the overall concept I think is great. A light weight belt fed machinegun.

Ive always thought a scaled down M240 would make a great SAW.

MK 48? or would that be more of a beefed up SAW ?

Why the closed bolt?

JSantoro
06-10-10, 17:41
Personally, I think it's a nice idea. I like that gun, and so will a lot of people. That's as far as that goes.

Professionally, I hope the f**k not. I do not see HK having sufficiently fixed their supply-support issues (using the MP5 debacle as an example) enough to jusify outfitting an entire military branch. They still operate off of the Eurpoean model of CS, which has traditionally been "First, you buy our product, and NOW you want SPARE PARTS, too!? *heavy sigh* :rolleyes: Fiiiiiiiiiiine, but it'll take 8 months for us to get in enough orders for spare parts to make a batch, at which point we'll sent yours to you. IF we remember.... Oui oui poof poof formage!

If that remains the same, better that it stays an IAR and not a common arm. If it ends up having to go the way of the MP5 within the Corps for the same reasons as the MP5, there's not much lost.

M4/M16FOW, that's OUR gun. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a vendor from whom spare parts may be procured.

If IAR spare parts may be made to the no-shit HK standard here in the US, and are therefore actually available....potentially a different story.

Bear in mind, totally spitballing. I ain't Kreskin. :D

Cagemonkey
06-10-10, 17:58
Thanks for the reply. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed. It was nice how the M240 which was originally adopted as a coaxial and ring mount MG for the M1 Abrams evolved into the M240G and replaced the M60E3. I remember being schooled on the 240 at Armorer school and telling the instructors that I could turn a 240 into a ground configuration in 2 minutes with a purchase of parts from the Shotgun News. I showed my instructor my copy of Small Arms of the World and Janes Infantry Weapons. He was amazed. The only time I remember seeing a Janes Infantry Weapons in the MC was at a visit to the MWSG 37 G2. A lot of Ordnance people I met had no knowledge of small arms other than the specific weapons they were trained on. After that they many times had no clue.

Entropy
06-10-10, 19:40
I wonder if this decision will have any influence on the USMC going with either the SCAR or 416.

SW-Shooter
06-10-10, 21:11
MK 48? or would that be more of a beefed up SAW ?

Why the closed bolt?

Faster first shot capability.

decodeddiesel
06-11-10, 09:36
Personally, I think it's a nice idea. I like that gun, and so will a lot of people. That's as far as that goes.

Professionally, I hope the f**k not. I do not see HK having sufficiently fixed their supply-support issues (using the MP5 debacle as an example) enough to jusify outfitting an entire military branch. They still operate off of the Eurpoean model of CS, which has traditionally been "First, you buy our product, and NOW you want SPARE PARTS, too!? *heavy sigh* :rolleyes: Fiiiiiiiiiiine, but it'll take 8 months for us to get in enough orders for spare parts to make a batch, at which point we'll sent yours to you. IF we remember.... Oui oui poof poof formage!

If that remains the same, better that it stays an IAR and not a common arm. If it ends up having to go the way of the MP5 within the Corps for the same reasons as the MP5, there's not much lost.

M4/M16FOW, that's OUR gun. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a vendor from whom spare parts may be procured.

If IAR spare parts may be made to the no-shit HK standard here in the US, and are therefore actually available....potentially a different story.

Bear in mind, totally spitballing. I ain't Kreskin. :D

Well said.

BigBoss0311
06-11-10, 09:58
So the 416 has already been field tested by SOCOM units for the last few years. HK has built a whole new plant in the USA to help build the HK416 and MR223. Parts availability may be an issue at first, but hey, what new weapon doesn't have a parts shortage when a bunch of 18-25 year old males get ahold of a new toy! lol Shit gets broke! Also, Magpul is already in development of a quad stack mag that may or may not be adopted for the IAR program. Also, I will try to find the article again, but I recently read that SOCOM had decided to not purchase anymore SCAR's. And the HK XM8 is back in contention for the next gen weapon. And as to the whole 240 thing, the Army just recently took delivery of a bunch of CQB 240's that are made of titanium, weigh appx 22 lbs, and have a short barrel with rail and bipod and optic mount. Link below.
http://peosoldier.armylive.dodlive.mil/2010/04/20/making-the-army%E2%80%99s-first-titanium-machine-gun/
And lastly, in other HK news, the XM25 has been delivered to Afghanistan for testing with Airborne, Ranger, and SOCOM units.
Looks like HK is taking over the world.

Caeser25
06-11-10, 17:23
Faster first shot capability.

What about cookoffs and nd's?

BigBoss0311
06-11-10, 19:35
That's where the piston system comes into play. It allows the weapon to stay cooler resulting in less cook offs.

Harv
06-11-10, 22:08
Bigboss0311

HK has built a whole new plant in the USA to help build the HK416 and MR223.

And the address of his plant is???

BigBoss0311
06-12-10, 05:58
Released Jan 15 2009 on the HK-USA website:

http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/mil_newsroom_01152009.asp

The existing facility is Wilcox Industries.

I was wrong in some of my info, from what I understand, the HK416 and HK417 are still made in the Oberndorf plant. I am unsure if they also make them in the US.