View Full Version : What to say to a friend considering a .380?
I know the light weight, thinness and low price are attractive, but I don't think I can keep my mouth shut about the anemic nature of the round.
Better than a poke in the eye?
Better than a poke in the eye?
Actually a good poke in the eye might reset an attackers OODA loop to a greater degree initially than a shot in the gut with a .380. Of course I can't prove that but getting poked in the eye hurts like a Mother F'er
How about, if it meets his needs in a way other options would not, or if he can carry a .380 at times or in places where he couldn't carry anything else, you try: "Cool, can I shoot it?"
No one is denying that the .380 is a compromise, but the constant hammering around here is just getting silly. Plenty of LE agencies, particularly in Europe, have successfully fielded .380 pistols for decades at a time. There are many LE agencies here in the U.S. that issue or authorize them for off-duty, backup, and UC work.
My LCP is:
easier to conceal than my j-frame.
easier to shoot accurately at speed.
dramatically faster to reload (especially compared to a speed strip).
higher capacity.
Closer in form & function to the semiauto pistol I carry as a primary every day.
The fact that it gives up an inch of penetration or doesn't do as well through automobile glass is an acceptable compromise to many, including myself, in return for those benefits.
How about, if it meets his needs in a way other options would not, or if he can carry a .380 at times or in places where he couldn't carry anything else, you try: "Cool, can I shoot it?"
No one is denying that the .380 is a compromise, but the constant hammering around here is just getting silly. Plenty of LE agencies, particularly in Europe, have successfully fielded .380 pistols for decades at a time. There are many LE agencies here in the U.S. that issue or authorize them for off-duty, backup, and UC work.
My LCP is:
easier to conceal than my j-frame.
easier to shoot accurately at speed.
dramatically faster to reload (especially compared to a speed strip).
higher capacity.
Closer in form & function to the semiauto pistol I carry as a primary every day.
The fact that it gives up an inch of penetration or doesn't do as well through automobile glass is an acceptable compromise to many, including myself, in return for those benefits.
I agree and have recently come to the conclusion that the only true "pocket carry" gun that doesn't print on me is a .380. Speaking to the European police comments, is it true that European .380 ammo is also loaded hotter than it's American counter part?
Average penetration of a .380acp JHP that expandes to 9mm levels is only 7-8" in bare gel. Against a windshield you're looking at about half that level of penetration.
It's all about the sectional density of the bullet and the .380 is piss poor:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm
The European agencies that used the .380 used FMJ. So, this penetration problem was not an issue since the rounded non-deforming loads would penetrate up to 18" in gel. You just sacrifice a better wound channel that you would get with a JHP which gives you a larger hole and a waddcutter frontal area.
I use a .380 when I believe the likelyhood of running into trouble is very low, or I need a BUG that is under 20oz to stick in an ankle holster. It would NOT be my first choice for any other situation. If you can avoid using the .380, I suggest that you do so.
Average penetration of a .380acp JHP that expandes to 9mm levels is only 7-8" in bare gel.
I guess I shouldn't choose an average .380 JHP that expands to 9mm levels, then.
Come to think of it, I try not to choose an average 9mm JHP that expands to 9mm levels, either.
I guess I shouldn't choose an average .380 JHP that expands to 9mm levels, then.
Come to think of it, I try not to choose an average 9mm JHP that expands to 9mm levels, either.
Hard to do when many of the major manufacturers design their .380s to do so:
Winchester Ranger Talon 90gr:
Bare Gel: 7.6" / .65"
Speer Gold Dot 90gr:
Bare Gel: 8.2" / .61"
Federal Hi-Shok 90gr:
Bare Gel: 7.4" / .64"
Throw in some ribs, and other internal bone structure and you're looking at even worse resutls. Low sectional density and momentum were major problems for the Dr. Lane FBI testing in 1993, and the follow up research done by the Canadians in 1994 in regard to internal bone penetration.
The IWBA testing of the Hornady XTP 90gr is still the only confirmed .380acp loading that I've seen that comes closer to the 12" penetration minimum by reducing its level of expansion:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm
Good luck finding a .380 JHP that is designed to achieve good penetration other than the Hornady load. Dr. Roberts tested some of the .380 Hornady Critical Defense stuff and it once again failed to reach a 10" penetration level. I wouldn't trust Brass Fetcher's testing as it seems that just about all of their results contradict FBI, the IWBA, and Dr. Robert's testing which I KNOW for sure is done properly. The .380 is a dead end cartridge when it comes to using JHP in my opinion.
Duncan MacPherson's book "Bullet Penetration" is very insightful regarding sectional density and proper gel testing which I believe the vast majority of online testing guys do not follow. This is why we see major discrepancies between the FBI protocol testers(FBI, IWBA, and Dr. Roberts) versus the online testers.
All that being said, I often carry a Sig P232 as a BUG with Win RTs simply because I am required to use agency ammo and a S&W J-Frame is not allowed. Given the choice, I would not carry .380. If I had to and could pick my own ammo, I would opt for the Hornady XTP or FMJ.
Better than a poke in the eye?
It's kinda like the burger king add with the guy with small hands...
.380's are better than a .22 back up.. but then do you want a tiny pistol lost in your boot? man up carry a sig .45... great gun!
Dave Berryhill
02-24-10, 10:37
http://www.berryhillguns.com/bitchslap.gif
tell em to buy a 9mm. there is some tiny ones that are suprisingly easy to shoot (G26), and ammo selection/availablity should also be a factor. 9mm is everywhere
gtmtnbiker98
02-24-10, 11:02
It's kinda like the burger king add with the guy with small hands...
.380's are better than a .22 back up.. but then do you want a tiny pistol lost in your boot? man up carry a sig .45... great gun!
= zero value to the thread.
I am also considering an LCP for those times when I can't carry a pistol. If it weren't for the cost of .380 ammo.
i guess my point i failed to make is i would trust a G26 far more than any other tiny 9mm, let alone a .380...ive shot 26s that have outshot full size pistols, with hot ammo to boot.
Hello my name is Spence and I too am an anemic round carrier.
Tell the guy he made a great decision. Having gun is plan A.
I have and carry various Glocks (26,19) and on occasion a 642. But that P3AT is always with me.
John_Wayne777
02-24-10, 13:23
I know the light weight, thinness and low price are attractive, but I don't think I can keep my mouth shut about the anemic nature of the round.
It's true that the .380 is anemic. It's also true that mouseguns are notoriously hard to shoot well under stress.
BUT, as much as it pains me to agree with Todd:
If it's a choice between having nothing or having my LCP (which I rarely carry) I will gladly take my LCP. Why? Because while the .380's terminal ballistics may not set the world ablaze, it is still capable of turning an opponent into a corpse. It's a lot better than a sharp stick and harsh language.
I have a friend who was carrying a Ruger .380 as his primary because people convinced him he couldn't carry anything bigger. He, being new to the use of firearms for daily carry, listened to the "experts". Then he showed up at my house and I handed him an RCS phantom IWB holster for the Glock and put a G17 in it and took him to a mirror. Even on his little frame (about 5'7", 140 pounds...IF THAT) the G17 almost disappeared. Then I showed him the G19 and the G26.
He now owns my G26 and my RCS phantom holster.
The moral of this story is this: If the LCP is really the best he can do, so be it. It's better than nothing. If you think he can upgrade, don't tell him...show him. Show up with some guy food and some guns and some holsters and let him try different options to figure out what might work for him. Once the guy figures out he can pack something more substantial than the LCP most of the time he might be willing to do it and keep the LCP as a backup or as a primary of last resort.
does it make a difference if it's a primary or a back up?
If you're putting it in your sock as a hold out peice it's one thing. if it's gonna be your bedroom gun, it's a different kind of thing.
it really IS better than nothing.
kahr PM9 or a G26 is obviously a better and bulkier choice...
what i'd tell him? make sure he learns to make a lot of hits fast with it.
What to say to a friend considering a .380?
I would tell him to consider carrying a large tactical folder or some pepper spray as a backup just in case his mouse didn't get the job done. Its better than nothing.
RAM Engineer
02-24-10, 19:09
Tell him to seek training, and to practice, practice, practice. Software trumps hardware and shot placement is supreme.
.380 is better than nothing but with all of the small 9mm out there I still see very little reason for .380 other than as an absolutely last ditch noise maker.
The only real problem with a .380 is getting ammo to practice with and then finding hollow points to carry in it. Not much use having a gun if A) you can't find ammo to practice and B) You can't find a decent hollow point to carry in it.
I love my LCP, but I am considering getting rid of it because I can't find the ammo to practice with it.
Good luck.
kihnspiracy
02-25-10, 01:04
As a backup to a full size pistol? Sure. As a stand alone carry piece? Not unless that was the only gun I owned.:(
It's true that the .380 is anemic. It's also true that mouseguns are notoriously hard to shoot well under stress.
BUT, as much as it pains me to agree with Todd:
If it's a choice between having nothing or having my LCP (which I rarely carry) I will gladly take my LCP. Why? Because while the .380's terminal ballistics may not set the world ablaze, it is still capable of turning an opponent into a corpse. It's a lot better than a sharp stick and harsh language.
I have a friend who was carrying a Ruger .380 as his primary because people convinced him he couldn't carry anything bigger. He, being new to the use of firearms for daily carry, listened to the "experts". Then he showed up at my house and I handed him an RCS phantom IWB holster for the Glock and put a G17 in it and took him to a mirror. Even on his little frame (about 5'7", 140 pounds...IF THAT) the G17 almost disappeared. Then I showed him the G19 and the G26.
He now owns my G26 and my RCS phantom holster.
The moral of this story is this: If the LCP is really the best he can do, so be it. It's better than nothing. If you think he can upgrade, don't tell him...show him. Show up with some guy food and some guns and some holsters and let him try different options to figure out what might work for him. Once the guy figures out he can pack something more substantial than the LCP most of the time he might be willing to do it and keep the LCP as a backup or as a primary of last resort.
How comfortable is the RCS Phantom? I am the same size as your friend and I have a hard time carrying a Glock 26 comfortably. I have to admit I'm guilty of going with a Colt Mustang MkIV in .380 instead of my G26 on most occasions due to this, but I've practiced with it and can hit what I need to hit with it.
I am currently using a leather IWB holster w/ the G26 from "The Masters" (got it when I first got the gun a year ago) and it just seems to be uncomfortably lumpy at 4 o'clock. The Colt Mustang (in a Blackhawk pocket holster) sits comfortably in my front pocket, even when I'm wearing formal wear. Seems like I may have to give the Phantom a try? Do you know of a good place to purchase from?
Lastly, will one model of the RCS Phantom fit the G17, G19, and the G26?
John_Wayne777
02-25-10, 07:12
How comfortable is the RCS Phantom?
Most comfortable holster I've ever tried.
Lastly, will one model of the RCS Phantom fit the G17, G19, and the G26?
If you buy the model that fits the G17 it will hold the G17, 19, and 26. If you get the 19 version it will fit the 19 and 26.
tr1kstanc3
02-25-10, 07:12
Seems like I may have to give the Phantom a try? Do you know of a good place to purchase from?
www.themalabarfront.com
I know the light weight, thinness and low price are attractive, but I don't think I can keep my mouth shut about the anemic nature of the round.
I usually say something like "just hope you don't meet up with someone with a real gun" or some other wise ass remark. :cool:
= zero value to the thread.
I am also considering an LCP for those times when I can't carry a pistol. If it weren't for the cost of .380 ammo.
maybe in boondock, ohio you need a .380.. but in Florida homies don't drop with a pee shooter..Jacka$$! try reloading your ammo... rookies!!!
My Kel Tec is the gun I carry when I am not carry a gun:) I view it's role as a contact distance weapon to shoot someone off of you much as you would use a knife to cut someone off of you. My three favorite contact shots are -
Under the chin
Up under the sternum
Crotch
I don't really care about killing them eventually, I care about making them stop what they are doing right away.- George
I carry a seecamp 32 very often as my deep cover gun. A small caliber is a lot better than no gun at all. I work in an environment where if anyone discovered the gun I could be in trouble(co policies not legal)
"Homies don't drop with a pee shooter." First, it's pea, not pee.:D And, yes, "homies" do drop even if shot with a pellet gun if shot placement is good. Homie is going to probably be out of the fight with a pellet in the eye. Do I carry a .380? Nope. .45 for me. Will make the switch to G17 soon. Anyway.....Several to the credit card will have a high probability of putting anyone down. I've had several instructors emphasize this; such as Pat Rogers and the bad MF's at TigerSwan. The dilemma is whether the person using a .380 has the skill level to do this. If I'm under pressure from attacker(s), I'd rather have not perfect hits with a 9mm or .45 than a .380.
A couple of things come to mind on this a) if carrying a .380 will get him to or allow him to carry concealed 100% of the time, then good. Having A gun all the time is better than not carrying 30% of the time because of the weight, size, or concealability of a gun which uses a better cartrige. I dont care what statistics you read or recite a .380 is light years better in a pinch than nothing. b) carry what you can use, ie: some people may be able to use and control a 9mm dramatically better than a 45acp, meaning they can accurately and effectively put rounds on target under pressure, should they then carry 45acp because it is a superior round even though they cannot hit the broad side of a barn with it under stress because they are not comofrtable with it?
Granted .380 is inferior to 9mm, .40 S&W, 45 acp, etc, etc. But the point is to get this guy or any other to actually carry the gun and if .380 allows or encourages him to do so then I say go for it. Personally I agree with others that I would not carry less than a 9mm but that is me, we have to keep in mind that "our" preferences and feelings may be quite different across the group and I think its better to encourage the guy to carry, and practice the .380 if that is his coice than to make him feel like he "has" to carry something else.
maybe in boondock, ohio you need a .380.. but in Florida homies don't drop with a pee shooter..Jacka$$! try reloading your ammo... rookies!!!
Damn you're dumb.
Damn you're dumb.
Agreed +1
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