View Full Version : I have a solution to the whole Toyota debacle.
SW-Shooter
02-24-10, 16:27
Why not just simply install a "KILL SWITCH". One that will over ride the fuel pump immediately, but still allow power assisted braking. Kind of like a fuel shutoff that's at all gas stations. It sure as hell beats bad press. What would one cost? I bet less than $100.00 installed.
My bet is the problem is caused my radio wave interference. Cell phone, alarms, wireless internet, home phones, etc...
Belmont31R
02-24-10, 16:30
I listening to CSPAN right now with Toyota and Congress....
Many members of Congress are downright rude and condescending to these guys who did not have to be there, and I can't help but think this has more to do with the gov's invested interest in GM and Chrysler than anything to do with Toyota safety.
The big 3 have had many serious safety issues, and there was no dog and pony show for them.
How about dropping the vehicle into neutral.....Lack of skills can be just as deadly as equipment malfunctions. Goes for firearms as well as cars.
Business_Casual
02-24-10, 16:36
I am convinced that this is 100% about the UAW and Government Motors.
M_P
I am convinced that this is 100% about the UAW and Government Motors.
M_P
Exactly... Some local dealers are offering an extra grand if you trade in a toyota. Part of me wants to ask if they are doing that so they have used cars that will sell.
Exactly... Some local dealers are offering an extra grand if you trade in a toyota. Part of me wants to ask if they are doing that so they have used cars that will sell.
Yup what those two gentleman said. Now that the government owns the car company, they need to kill off the competition.
Why not just simply install a "KILL SWITCH". One that will over ride the fuel pump immediately, but still allow power assisted braking. Kind of like a fuel shutoff that's at all gas stations. It sure as hell beats bad press. What would one cost? I bet less than $100.00 installed.
My bet is the problem is caused my radio wave interference. Cell phone, alarms, wireless internet, home phones, etc...
Testing alone would take months...not to mention that the first accidental kill switch flip that caused a panic / crash pile up would back fire the idea amigo.
This whole deal is mind boggling. I agree about the dog and pony show but the fact toyota cannot find the solution is quite amazing.
Nathan_Bell
02-24-10, 16:49
Doesn't work. Have you listened to any of the testimonies? I can tell you from first hand experience: That doesn't work. My mom had a lexus with this issue. Manifested itself in some very strange ways. Absolutely nothing could be done during it's spaz cycle. Saw the tach pin itself while in gear but the car not move. Had it sharply accelerate when shifted into neutral. Had the car's electronics (radio etc.) go out while on the road including head lights, at night. Lexus didn't believe us at first. After the 4th time in the shop, while they were bringing it around for her, the service tech crashed into fence and parked car due to unintended acceleration. Something else, sometimes the accelerator wouldn't work at all. You'd push it all the way to floor and nothing. Then all of sudden once you let off it would leap forward. At the time we all thought it was a fluke. I guess not.
All of this is documented by the way, for those of you who think this is some giant conspiracy...... :rolleyes:
One in 625,000 is the numbers I saw on this happening. You should have had your mom keep that bad boy for its rareness. :p
Don't doubt it happened, but is it really something that Congress needs to be involved with?
Business_Casual
02-24-10, 16:49
Doesn't work. Have you listened to any of the testimonies? I can tell you from first hand experience: That doesn't work. My mom had a lexus with this issue. Manifested itself in some very strange ways. Absolutely nothing could be done during it's spaz cycle. Saw the tach pin itself while in gear but the car not move. Had it sharply accelerate when shifted into neutral. Had the car's electronics (radio etc.) go out while on the road including head lights, at night. Lexus didn't believe us at first. After the 4th time in the shop, while they were bringing it around for her, the service tech crashed into fence and parked car due to unintended acceleration. Something else, sometimes the accelerator wouldn't work at all. You'd push it all the way to floor and nothing. Then all of sudden once you let off it would leap forward. At the time we all thought it was a fluke. I guess not.
All of this is documented by the way, for those of you who think this is some giant conspiracy...... :rolleyes:
Wow, I don't remember the president/CEO of Audi testifying before congress when they had some issues. I don't remember the president/CEO of Ford being grilled when the Pinto has some issues. I don't remember the president/CEO of...
I didn't say the problem doesn't exist, I think Toyota is getting the business because they are non-Union and in the #1 spot. :rolleyes:
M_P
Belmont31R
02-24-10, 16:50
Doesn't work. Have you listened to any of the testimonies? I can tell you from first hand experience: That doesn't work. My mom had a lexus with this issue. Manifested itself in some very strange ways. Absolutely nothing could be done during it's spaz cycle. Saw the tach pin itself while in gear but the car not move. Had it sharply accelerate when shifted into neutral. Had the car's electronics (radio etc.) go out while on the road including head lights, at night. Lexus didn't believe us at first. After the 4th time in the shop, while they were bringing it around for her, the service tech crashed into fence and parked car due to unintended acceleration. Something else, sometimes the accelerator wouldn't work at all. You'd push it all the way to floor and nothing. Then all of sudden once you let off it would leap forward. At the time we all thought it was a fluke. I guess not.
All of this is documented by the way, for those of you who think this is some giant conspiracy...... :rolleyes:
Bottom line is cars have problems, and I dont need to sit here and make a HUGE deal over Toyota's problems but then sweep the big 3 under the rug.
We had a Ford Ranger that would not brake at times. Press the brake, and nothing. Let off, and brake again...then it would brake about half the time. Rare but it happened to me in this truck at least 1-2 times a month.
Dealer said it was fine. Look online and other people have this issue too. No recall at all. I nearly t-boned someone in an intersection because of this. Was at a T intersection, and I went into a grape vineyard because the brakes did not work for shit on a near new truck.
How about dropping the vehicle into neutral.....Lack of skills can be just as deadly as equipment malfunctions. Goes for firearms as well as cars.
This....is exactly what I'm thinking. It's about training.
LMarshall73
02-24-10, 16:54
My brother used to be a tech at a Lexus dealership. They had a TSB on this issue (and the fix) in case an owner notified them of this problem. That was about 5 years ago.
Should Toyota/Lexus addressed this on a larger scale when the problem was first identified? Yes.
Is .gov going to exploit this to try to scare people into buying American? Yes.
I honestly can't recall maybe some one can refresh my memory, but how long did it take Ford to fix the vic's catching on fire and killing nearly 2 dozen LEO's and a number of others? Not counting the ones left disfigured from horrible burns.
Belmont31R
02-24-10, 17:11
1 model vs. almost all of Toyota's model lineup? Apple meet orange.
Ford should have been held accountable for it however. Just because they weren't doesn't mean Toyota shouldn't. Since when did that start making sense to intelligent men?!?!?
Its not "almost all of toyotas lineup".
We had other Fords with issues, too. A Mustang that almost got lemon lawed because of transmission issues, and then later the exhaust manifold (R) cracked at just 60k miles. Ford dealer put on non-CARB legal headers, and this was in CA which is a huge no-no.
Now I drive a 350Z, and its the best car Ive ever owned. Not a single problem in 3 years of driving, and the dealer's Ive dealt with are far better than Ford.
The big 3 have had a lot of serious safety issues, and have never had this level of involvement by the gov.
Put 2 and 2 together. Yes Toyota made a mistake. So have the big 3, and they never went before Congress to get talked to like a 5 year old in timeout.
Nathan_Bell
02-24-10, 17:28
lol. :rolleyes: Come on now. You're smarter than that.
If not congress than who? Legit question. Frankly I don't care who it was that brought them to the accountability table.
That is what the courts are for, if there is enough evidence that the company is in the wrong they would pay. If there is not, they would not.
Congressional hearings should deal with the need for a law, or the over-reaching of an existing law and how the legislature can address that legal weakness. Once the laws have been established, the legislature has no business sticking its nose into individual cases. The current action of Congress is very close to a bill of attainder, with Congress attacking one individual, and not an entire class. Should any legislation come to pass from this, GM and Dodge may very well regret not reminding their pet Congressfolk that all automotive regs apply to ALL automobiles. If it is only aimed at Toyota, it is not just close to a de facto beill of attainder, it IS one.
One in 625,000 is the numbers I saw on this happening. You should have had your mom keep that bad boy for its rareness. :p
Don't doubt it happened, but is it really something that Congress needs to be involved with?
Was steroids in baseball something Congress needed to be involved with?:rolleyes: We shouldn't expect anything more from them...
Nathan_Bell
02-24-10, 17:35
Was steroids in baseball something Congress needed to be involved with?:rolleyes: We shouldn't expect anything more from them...
Due to everyone's favorite progressive TR and his anti-trust laws and the exemption that the NFL and MLB have from those laws, they had more right to be involved in that CF than they do in this one. :eek:
Alpha Sierra
02-24-10, 18:13
This .gov witch hunt just reinforces my resolve to never buy a car made by any American car company.
I know it won't happen I would like someone to tell them to kiss their ass. It's just political drama for the mindless. I think if their is a more serious problem then get it fixed. As far as the lady stating she did all she said well BS. All th're doing is making it harder to learn the truth.
ForTehNguyen
02-24-10, 19:00
http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2010/02/24/the-parasite-circuit/
The Parasite Circuit
Politicians are up in arms about Toyota.
Congressman Henry Waxman (D-CA) said yesterday: "Toyota failed its customers."
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said the Toyota problem "may be the most serious safety issue that we have faced here at DOT [during my tenure.]"
The scare-of-the-day is always used by politicians to grab power. But to put the Toyota problem in perspective, before all the media hype, 19 fatal accidents were linked to faulty gas pedals and floor mats over the last decade. That's fewer than 2 each year. Compare that to America’s 40,000 annual fatal car crashes.
As David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports, said to The Guardian:
"I find it a little odd that we're going to have a Congressional hearing to look at those two deaths out of 40,000... you have to look at death rates in safety terms rationally."
No one looks at safety “rationally” when the media and Big Government are stirred up.
But what about all the new problems cropping up in Toyota vehicles? I see newspaper headlines like these:
Toyota hit by new surge of reported fatalities in vehicles -- Washington Post
Toyota complaints surge at NHTSA -- The Detroit News
Toyota crash complaints rise in US -- Reuters
It’s possible that those new crashes were caused by Toyota safety defects, but I doubt it.
The LA Times reports that "all but one of the deaths reported to NHTSA by motorists in 2010 actually occurred in prior years - as far back as 1992 - suggesting that recent public attention to the issue spurred people to file complaints regarding past incidents."
Because Toyota is the evil business of the month, every accident caused by a drunk or careless driver can suddenly be attributed to safety defects in the vehicle. No human wants to admit “human error.” “Toyota error” is a much better story to tell dad. The parasite circus of trial lawyers invites bad drivers to blame gas pedals.
Try Googling "Toyota accelerator defect." When as wrote this, six out of the top ten hits are from law firms soliciting business:
As innocent drivers continue to report acceleration issues and more and more are becoming injured in accidents resulting from the auto product defects...
If you or a loved one has been injured in a New York Auto Accident as a result of what you believe to be an automotive defect, the New York defective auto part attorneys at Wingate, Russotti & Shapiro, L.L.P., would like to meet with you.
I’m sure they would. Truth wont matter much. Personal injury lawyers spewed junk science about breast implants and asbestos and got juries to award billions. The Toyota circus may be no different. Once the media-politician-lawyer cabal is inflamed, hysteria and greed eclipse rational analysis.
Is it worth the billions of dollars Toyota is spending to recall 8.5 million vehicles and halt production in factories across the country? I don’t know, but this quote from the Transportation Secretary LaHood doesn't give me much confidence: "the reason Toyota decided to do the recall and to stop manufacturing was because we asked them to."
LaHood is a Government Guy, as Andrew Ferguson cleverly puts it:
The government guy’s first step, always, is to raid the language of epidemiology and declare a problem—any problem, from anorexia to obesity—an epidemic.
... [That is] how government guys create work for themselves, manage to keep themselves busy, and put the rest of us on our guard.
Toyota's internal documents referred to the administration as "not industry friendly" and listed as a challenge the "Activist Administration & Congress.”
Such business bashing activists threaten our prosperity.
rickrock305
02-24-10, 19:57
Wow, I don't remember the president/CEO of Audi testifying before congress when they had some issues. I don't remember the president/CEO of Ford being grilled when the Pinto has some issues. I don't remember the president/CEO of...
i seem to remember some Ford execs in front of Congress over the whole tire thing though weren't they?
i think this is nothing more than political grandstanding from politicians who want to act like they care about citizens.
Gutshot John
02-24-10, 20:01
I'm looking forward to the killer discount I'm going to get on my next car purchase from Toyota. ;)
Seriously is there anything more masturbatory than a Congressional hearing?
Nathan_Bell
02-24-10, 20:03
i think this is nothing more than political grandstanding from politicians who want to act like they care about citizens.
DING DING DING I think we have a winner!
ForTehNguyen
02-24-10, 20:26
did yall see the laughable testimony yesterday? :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzHGv2TSk_g
... all of Toyota's model lineup?
Let's not do the hyperbole thing. It's not all of the Toyota and Lexus lineup.
EzGoingKev
02-24-10, 20:46
Why not just simply install a "KILL SWITCH".
They already have one, it is called an ignition switch.
Fortier1796
02-24-10, 20:56
I've been saying for a few weeks now that the .gov getting involved is a massive conflict of interest. A local radio DJ (Ed Wallace, if anyone cares) did some research. The first thing is, every time someone calls the NHTSA and simply says "I'm worried that my car may be affected" it is actually listed as a complaint. Even if there is no complaint, it gets shoved in the complaint box, ergo the thousands upon thousands of complaints.
Following finding that out, he did some more digging, and I believe he said that the final number in the US was, out of all cars, 80 actual reported failures. 80. Out of all the Toyotas sold, 80 actually had issues. So while even I joked around about Toyota, now made by Audi, it wasn't a horrible thing. I mean, I'm sure it was a bit...upsetting to the drivers of affected vehicles, but really.
I spent 2.5 years at General Motors on the sale side before getting laid off in the massive post bailout cuts. This is something everyone around the office (except me and three other people, the ones that got laid off, hmmmm...) wanted to see. They all wanted a massive recall on Toyota thinking it would destroy the brand.
My .02? Toyota will recover marvelously, and offer some hefty discounts to get people back in the store, and all things are back to the norm. On an anecdotal note, I have a number of friends with Tacomas, and they all love 'em.
Are you serious? You take off the word "almost" out of my quote and then give talk to me about hyperbole??!?! Was this an honest mistake or did you really think people weren't going to notice??!?!
I was serious, but I misread and misquoted your post. Oops. My bad.
Bottom line is cars have problems, and I dont need to sit here and make a HUGE deal over Toyota's problems but then sweep the big 3 under the rug.
We had a Ford Ranger that would not brake at times. Press the brake, and nothing. Let off, and brake again...then it would brake about half the time. Rare but it happened to me in this truck at least 1-2 times a month.
Dealer said it was fine. Look online and other people have this issue too. No recall at all. I nearly t-boned someone in an intersection because of this. Was at a T intersection, and I went into a grape vineyard because the brakes did not work for shit on a near new truck.
My first ride was a Ford ranger that my dad had bought to help with weekend chores/projects. Something with the float in the carb (this was early 80's) made the engine starve out when you accelerated into a sharp right hand turn.
And when would you do that? That's right, pulling out into traffic. luckily I was never hit, but I refused to drive it because the dealer said there was nothing wrong.
rickrock305
02-24-10, 21:25
Look at who you are agreeing with..... Just sayin......
wow, how elementary school of you
What little bit I've heard it sounds like Toyota is trying to make these cars "drive by wire" that is, gas pedals, steering does not have direct linkages, everything is done via on board computer..If this correct,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) then why not revert back and put gas pedals in with cables, linkages to the throttle body, and put a old fashioned steering colum in until they get the bugs worked out..Another question is where is all the problematic software coming from?? China? I will give Toyota credit..They have bent over backwards to fix these things...more so than anyone else I can remember...
How about dropping the vehicle into neutral.....Lack of skills can be just as deadly as equipment malfunctions. Goes for firearms as well as cars.
One of the ladies on there testifying said she put it in reverse and it kept going:rolleyes: Im pretty sure if you slapped it into reverse at 100mph like she said the most God awful grinding noise would lead to the slowing of your vehicle and effective ownage of your transmission
ForTehNguyen
02-24-10, 22:41
What little bit I've heard it sounds like Toyota is trying to make these cars "drive by wire" that is, gas pedals, steering does not have direct linkages, everything is done via on board computer..If this correct,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) then why not revert back and put gas pedals in with cables, linkages to the throttle body, and put a old fashioned steering colum in until they get the bugs worked out..Another question is where is all the problematic software coming from?? China? I will give Toyota credit..They have bent over backwards to fix these things...more so than anyone else I can remember...
DBW makes a few things a lot easier:
precise throttle control to hit emissions/mileage targets
cruise control, becomes more of a profit center as it is now just software
same for traction control and stability control, though those may also involve the brakes, they won't have to fight a driver who is just mashing the throttle.
reduce warranty claims/improve reliability - inhibit WOT near redline, reduced throttle opening while engine is cold or when a fault code is detected
even then SUA is still possible on throttle cabled cars. The cables can wear and fray preventing the throttle from returning to the closed position.
What little bit I've heard it sounds like Toyota is trying to make these cars "drive by wire" that is, gas pedals, steering does not have direct linkages, everything is done via on board computer..If this correct,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) then why not revert back and put gas pedals in with cables, linkages to the throttle body, and put a old fashioned steering colum in until they get the bugs worked out..Another question is where is all the problematic software coming from?? China? I will give Toyota credit..They have bent over backwards to fix these things...more so than anyone else I can remember...
Did you know even the new chevy trucks have an electrical throttle system? No more sticky throttle cables and such..... I dont like the technology shift in mechanics in the way of vehicles, its too breakdown prone. If you have to have a computer to fix almost every aspect of your vehicle its time to stop the advancement.
Im not sure which models have the drive by wire but I think original steering rods and throttle cables are the way to go. I am not a fan of all this technology in vehicles, you cant fix a computer chip or program on the side of the road in the snow. However, I dont think this is faulty technology in these Toyotas, Its the government basically covering their own ass by making a mountain out of a mole hill. They're just upset they invested billions into a financially adolescent automotive industry and are throwing cheap shots to try an turn the tides away from the auto company that ISNT failing. Its pathetic if you ask me. I want Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler to bring up all the serious recalls in the last 5 years and have a new ass hole ripped for not televising it.
On top of that, do you think GM would come out and do half the things that Toyota has done to fix a problem thats not as big as its been put out to be? No, they'd go on CNN and make a couple of excuses and let it die out. Its all a complete joke, I think its a shame that enough people accept a national double standard like this to go on and are ignorant enough to believe it:rolleyes:
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-24-10, 23:30
1. Surprised no one has mentioned Kamakazi cars.
2. HAL, HAL what are you doing?
3. I wonder what it is like to be grilled by what is basically the Board of Directors of your largest competitor.
4. I think a lot of people only would have been happy if Toyota-san had pulled out a wakizashi and performed seppuku.
5. I still don't get how 1 out of 10,000 or 100,000 cars has this problem, intermitently? If you can't really explain the issue, how do you fix it?
6. Were any of the Wall Street bozo CEOs treated to such a grilling?
7. Runaway Toyotas? How about a run away congress that won't stop even though everyone is screaming to slow down.
1. Surprised no one has mentioned Kamakazi cars.
2. HAL, HAL what are you doing?
3. I wonder what it is like to be grilled by what is basically the Board of Directors of your largest competitor.
4. I think a lot of people only would have been happy if Toyota-san had pulled out a wakizashi and performed seppuku.
5. I still don't get how 1 out of 10,000 or 100,000 cars has this problem, intermitently? If you can't really explain the issue, how do you fix it?
6. Were any of the Wall Street bozo CEOs treated to such a grilling?
7. Runaway Toyotas? How about a run away congress that won't stop even though everyone is screaming to slow down.
Havent you heard? Congress has a SSP. A sticky stimulus pedal. I can't even get a grasp of what exactly they are claiming the problem is based on the information given. Every mechanical common sense receptor in my brain resist the idea that slamming your brakes and putting the car in reverse wont stop it. Or the notion that the car tried to start itself and she had time to make a BLUETOOTH call to her husband while all this was going on. Doesnt this remind you of the old movie "The Car"? I guess Jon Stewart's (Toyotathon OF DEATH!!!!) is really coming true:p
Doesn't work. Have you listened to any of the testimonies? I can tell you from first hand experience: That doesn't work. My mom had a lexus with this issue. Manifested itself in some very strange ways. Absolutely nothing could be done during it's spaz cycle. Saw the tach pin itself while in gear but the car not move. Had it sharply accelerate when shifted into neutral. Had the car's electronics (radio etc.) go out while on the road including head lights, at night. Lexus didn't believe us at first. After the 4th time in the shop, while they were bringing it around for her, the service tech crashed into fence and parked car due to unintended acceleration. Something else, sometimes the accelerator wouldn't work at all. You'd push it all the way to floor and nothing. Then all of sudden once you let off it would leap forward. At the time we all thought it was a fluke. I guess not.
All of this is documented by the way, for those of you who think this is some giant conspiracy...... :rolleyes:
although I don't doubt your mom had some seriously strange issues, this isn't related to the recalls. For the recalls the pedals get trimmed and or a shim added to the spring in the pedal. There is a reflash of the engine ecu, But it is just a brake override. The issues your moms Lexus had would have to come through numerous ECU's because nearly everything you described is controlled by a different ecu on modern cars. It sounds like some wiring problems throwing wrong signals everywhere and causing issues. This whole recall seems to be blown way out of proportion. All manufactures have recalls, and most have death rates alot higher than these. A couple years back Toyota had a lower ball joint recall where the ball joint would break off, causing the wheel to essentially come off, I would need more than two hands to count how many vehicles I personally saw come in after having that happen while driving down the freeway. Not good. No press for those ones.
even then SUA is still possible on throttle cabled cars. The cables can wear and fray preventing the throttle from returning to the closed position.
Or the cable can get dirt in it or whatever. Lots if friction.
I had the opposite problem -- my cable broke once leaving me in heavy traffic all of a sudden not able to get out of the way. Luckily no accident happened.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-25-10, 01:56
I'd like to see Mythbusters take a whack at this. Start at 55mph and pin the throttle to the floor while jamming on the brake. ( I know electrical gremlins are the the suspected villian in these cases). I know from a stand still the brakes overpower the engine, but I don't know about what happens at speed.
Tie a string around some of the cars fuses and have a pull cord.
Of course, the cars could just be possessed too.
Imagine if the engines ran on a Windows OS.
Are parking brakes still cable actuated?
Imagine if the engines ran on a Windows OS.
The Navy tried that a while back ;) Ship got stuck in the harbor and had to be towed back...
Are parking brakes still cable actuated?
The one in my Passat is not. It is electronic.
Im pretty sure if you slapped it into reverse at 100mph like she said the most God awful grinding noise would lead to the slowing of your vehicle and effective ownage of your transmission
Did it in an automatic car going about 50 once. Just locked up the rear tires, no damage. Sucked getting pulled over and having to explain it to the police.
On top of that, do you think GM would come out and do half the things that Toyota has done to fix a problem thats not as big as its been put out to be? No, they'd go on CNN and make a couple of excuses and let it die out. Its all a complete joke, I think its a shame that enough people accept a national double standard like this to go on and are ignorant enough to believe it:rolleyes:
The UAW would send a representative out to tell the world they are still making the best vehicles thanks to organized labor and then they would proceed to sweep it under the rug hoping people would still purchase their products. Any questioning would then be considered un-american.
The one in my Passat is not. It is electronic.
Hmm... I am 99.9% certain that my R32 is a manual e-brake.
Belmont31R
02-25-10, 06:10
What little bit I've heard it sounds like Toyota is trying to make these cars "drive by wire" that is, gas pedals, steering does not have direct linkages, everything is done via on board computer..If this correct,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) then why not revert back and put gas pedals in with cables, linkages to the throttle body, and put a old fashioned steering colum in until they get the bugs worked out..Another question is where is all the problematic software coming from?? China? I will give Toyota credit..They have bent over backwards to fix these things...more so than anyone else I can remember...
My 350Z is drive by wire, and Ive heard of no problems with the system.
Lots of aircraft have been "fly by wire" for a long time, and it can actually be a safer way of doing things if done correctly. You can put redundant systems in so if one fails you have a back up. With old fashioned cables and linkages if something goes wrong you are SOL.
Oh and I forgot to mention my wife's Jeep Liberty had to have the computer replaced. It was gifted to us from my parents, and my mom was on the interstate. Car just went dead, and had to be towed to the dealer.
I'd like to see Mythbusters take a whack at this. Start at 55mph and pin the throttle to the floor while jamming on the brake. ( I know electrical gremlins are the the suspected villian in these cases). I know from a stand still the brakes overpower the engine, but I don't know about what happens at speed.
Car and Driver just did a test like this. The conclusion was that the brakes will overcome the engine at full throttle. Also, Toyota would benefit from a system that kills the throttle upon braking (like Infiniti uses) as well as a faster reacting push button ignition. I found this interesting:
"With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. "
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
Nathan_Bell
02-25-10, 07:26
Look at who you are agreeing with..... Just sayin......
I was shocked as well.
In regards to Toyota needing to be dealt with for screwing up. Again the courts are the device to use in these situations.
The action of the Congress has not made Toyota's vehicles safer or resolved how to avoid these situations in the future, it has simply angered a lot of people on both sides of the debate.
I am convinced that this is 100% about the UAW and Government Motors.
M_P
I agree. How else do you get Ford , Chrysler, and Government Motors sales up?
My 350Z is drive by wire, and Ive heard of no problems with the system.
Lots of aircraft have been "fly by wire" for a long time, and it can actually be a safer way of doing things if done correctly. You can put redundant systems in so if one fails you have a back up. With old fashioned cables and linkages if something goes wrong you are SOL.
Oh and I forgot to mention my wife's Jeep Liberty had to have the computer replaced. It was gifted to us from my parents, and my mom was on the interstate. Car just went dead, and had to be towed to the dealer.
I used to have a liberty..I loved the body style the body itself is well made,But, that where it stops...you are aware of the lower ball joint recall aren't you?? Long story short..If there even a little bit of play in the lower ball joint, they need replaced, (dealer will do it for free) they can and have let go without warning, this is a serious flaw, and one of the reasons I got rid of mine..It was also the last Chysler product I'll ever own...
ForTehNguyen
02-25-10, 08:14
I'd like to see Mythbusters take a whack at this. Start at 55mph and pin the throttle to the floor while jamming on the brake. ( I know electrical gremlins are the the suspected villian in these cases). I know from a stand still the brakes overpower the engine, but I don't know about what happens at speed.
Car and Driver did a test where they proved a camry/ES350 can brake to a stop even under full throttle, A lot of people just dont press hard enough. Even then the stopping distance wasnt much different than normal braking. However Toyota could put in a brake override, you have to fix stupid drivers somehow. I dunno how I survived without a brake override! This whole thing is getting sillier by the day. Infiniti has a brake override I believe, so the braking distance wasn't much different. But Toyota's dont have a mind of its own and arent uncontrollable by any means, despite what the media is fearmongering up.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/braking-results/3141454-1-eng-US/braking-results.jpg
Did you know even the new chevy trucks have an electrical throttle system? No more sticky throttle cables and such..... I dont like the technology shift in mechanics in the way of vehicles, its too breakdown prone. If you have to have a computer to fix almost every aspect of your vehicle its time to stop the advancement.
Im not sure which models have the drive by wire but I think original steering rods and throttle cables are the way to go. I am not a fan of all this technology in vehicles, you cant fix a computer chip or program on the side of the road in the snow. However, I dont think this is faulty technology in these Toyotas, Its the government basically covering their own ass by making a mountain out of a mole hill. They're just upset they invested billions into a financially adolescent automotive industry and are throwing cheap shots to try an turn the tides away from the auto company that ISNT failing. Its pathetic if you ask me. I want Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler to bring up all the serious recalls in the last 5 years and have a new ass hole ripped for not televising it.
On top of that, do you think GM would come out and do half the things that Toyota has done to fix a problem thats not as big as its been put out to be? No, they'd go on CNN and make a couple of excuses and let it die out. Its all a complete joke, I think its a shame that enough people accept a national double standard like this to go on and are ignorant enough to believe it:rolleyes:
Hmmm, I bought a'09 Chevy PU last fall, I did'nt know it has electrical throttle... I guess I should look under the hood a little more often,It's been sitting it the garage since the first of Dec. I agree with you,I never saw a problem with a simple throttle cable, they work well, and are easily replaced without the need for a complete dionostic machine to tell you if it's installed right or not..
The one in my Passat is not. It is electronic.
Hmm... I am 99.9% certain that my R32 is a manual e-brake.
I have a 2006 Passat and the emergency brake is electronic. There is a push button in the dash and the manual waxes all lyrical (not really lyrical but you know what I mean) about this great advancement in using electronic emergency brakes and that it means they can do all sorts of cool things with them including traction control and stuff (at least do it better).
Had the push button fail once. Could not get the break to go off. Had to be towed. I guess it is the same as having the cable break or something. My 97 Jetta with cable brake had a problem with the cable that we almost had to have towed.
Do some of you think it is a coincidence that the brakes on every automobile or light truck are designed to be able to overpower the engine? This is a engineering design feature that is not an accident, every car with functioning brakes and a stock drive train (Not a 1,000HP Hot Rod with manual drum brakes!) will easily be able to scuff off the speed and get the car stopped. You may melt down the transmission doing it, but hey.... whats a few dollars compared to your life?
These folks drive and do not look at guages, they miss the fact that the car is going 20 or 40 MPH faster than expected... and what, they don't hear and feel the engine RPM's chang? Come on, if your honestly that detached from your car/truck than let me move out of your way so you can unknowingly speed on and thin the heard!
These law suites are from money grabbing idiots that do not want to admit that they operated a machine incorrectly, they wish blame the manufacturer for thier own lack of attention while behind the wheel. I'm calling BS and I am sure Toyota's Lawyers will be calling BS in court. Hit the brakes you dumb piece of shit! And stop driving, you might kill someone with a functioning brain that we actually need here on earth!
I've got a question for those of you in the know...What is the supposed advantage of going to electric steering, throttle control ? not trying to be argumentive, I'm just wanting to know... Frankly I don't get it..I don't see the advantage...
Toyota has made good on problems and then some in the past. Have you read anything conerning the frames on the Tacomas? There was a rust issue on a fair number of them. They sent notices out to the effected owners to bring in the truck. If it was effected to a certain degree, they put the owner in a loaner (brand new vehicle from the dealer) and replaced the frame. (Imagine the hours to do this.) If it was too far gone they bought the truck back at something like 150% of current retail value and offered very nice financing terms on a new Tacoma if the owner wanted a new replacement.
This was only a few years ago. It is hard to imagine that they were plotting to screw the owners of nearly every type of vehicle they make that allegedly has a defect at the same time that they were handling the other issue in the manner that they did.
It sounds like there is a problem with some of these vehicles that needs to be addressed but this is nothing new under the sun. It will be interesting to see if Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. get similar treatment in the future.
Fortier1796
02-25-10, 11:17
I've got a question for those of you in the know...What is the supposed advantage of going to electric steering, throttle control ? not trying to be argumentive, I'm just wanting to know... Frankly I don't get it..I don't see the advantage...
Lower weight, better response, with steering you can get a different ratios for different situations (parking lots verse highway).
I've got a question for those of you in the know...What is the supposed advantage of going to electric steering, throttle control ? not trying to be argumentive, I'm just wanting to know... Frankly I don't get it..I don't see the advantage...
Basically it comes down to cost and performance. The electronic system is alot more precise. And again, these problems are not because of the drive by wire system.
without knowing where Toyota gets their parts from, I will assume they are made in the same chinese plant that US automakers buy from. If they are not chinese components, they are still probably made buy someone that other companies use anyway.
EzGoingKev
02-25-10, 11:53
These throttle by wire things are nothing new.
Back in the early/mid 90's when I was working on trucks Mac had it in their tractors. I do not know how long they had been using it.
No matter what, Toyota will fix the problem and continue on to make the best massed produced cars on the planet.
without knowing where Toyota gets their parts from, I will assume they are made in the same chinese plant that US automakers buy from. If they are not chinese components, they are still probably made buy someone that other companies use anyway.
Toyota is using two suppliers for their accelerator pedals: CTS (U.S.) and Denso (Japan). From what I've read, the problematic accelerators are all from CTS. Supposedly CTS components are found in quite a few other auto brands, but my google-fu is weak today so I can't tell who.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/
CarlosDJackal
02-25-10, 12:11
I am convinced that this is 100% about the UAW and Government Motors.
M_P
I highly doubt this. I don't think our elected officials and the UAW would be so underhanded as to try and drive their competition out of business by exploiting the deaths of innocent citizens that may or may not have been caused by the failure of some man-made mechanical and/or electronic device.
Uh-uh. Not my government!!
Oops, I forgot the tags. :D
Belmont31R
02-25-10, 12:46
Lower weight, better response, with steering you can get a different ratios for different situations (parking lots verse highway).
Yep my Z is harder to turn at speed. Makes for smooth inputs when you are going faster. Parking lots the wheel is quite easy to turn.
Also with the timing and whatnot its more efficient to let the computer decide how much air to get in the engine than your foot.
And as I said with electronic controls you can have redundant systems which is safer for the driver than a mechanical device. How'd you like to fly on a 747 with cables and pulley's?
Ford had at least 1500 bad units that didnt make it out of the show room. They were able to avoid a recall because the still had control of the vehicles. And because Toyota let them know early on to hold the vehicles.
They way I see it, .gov says my life is worth half a mil when they send me off to win their wars. Toyota says my life is worth 2 billion, so far.
There is a fix, just not an instant fix. They have to make and install new units. The supplier screwed up.
As for other company's
2003-2005 Dodge Rams have a tendency to turn off. You lose power steering brakes the works. usually in a turn a slow speeds. They also ruin rotors and pads by 25000 miles
I will enjoy this Tundra in the yard.
Fortier1796
02-25-10, 13:23
It seems that the FBI has raided some of the parts suppliers involved. Doesn't seem related to the Toyota issues, but here it is anyway:
http://jalopnik.com/5479384/breaking-fbi-raids-three-toyota-suppliers-in-detroit
Toyota is using two suppliers for their accelerator pedals: CTS (U.S.) and Denso (Japan). From what I've read, the problematic accelerators are all from CTS. Supposedly CTS components are found in quite a few other auto brands, but my google-fu is weak today so I can't tell who.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/
This is correct, the denso pedals only get the trim and reflash due to floormats getting stuck while the cts pedals get both the shim from the sticking hinge, and the trimming. The recall codes are 90L for the trim and A0A for the shim if anyone is interested in researching them.
ForTehNguyen
02-26-10, 08:34
heres a nice article calling out the huge amount of BS in this witch hunt, sorry its long but it shoots down a ton of the misinformation that has been spread around:
The Toyota Witch Hunt - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/feb2010/bw20100225_403524.htm)
The Toyota Witch Hunt
Much of the testimony from Congress's Toyota hearings is riveting and emotional but can't be trusted, writes Ed Wallace
By Ed Wallace
"Several times I have noticed that the acceleration will drop off the second I take my foot off the pedal. Please advise ASAP!!!!!!!!!"—NHTSA Toyota Complaint #10302477
"Accelerator stuck, wide-open position, sudden acceleration to high speed, while driving. Unable to stop vehicle with braking system."—NHTSA Toyota Complaint #10302541
The above are two of the thousands of complaints registered with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration concerning speed control issues with late-model Toyota (TM) Camrys. The media keep saying that "close to 3,000 complaints of uncontrollable unintended acceleration" have been sent to the NHTSA, and doing so may make their audience think each of these "complaints" stems from a legitimate problem—maybe even an accident. Like everything else in this fiasco, that's overstated.
What is important to remember is that many of the items included in that number are not complaints at all. The first one above actually reports that the accelerator pedal works exactly as it's designed to: It doesn't stick, it responds instantly.
And many serious-sounding complaints raise questions as to their veracity. For example, in the second complaint above, in spite of the fact that the person claimed the throttle was stuck in a full open position, with no brakes, that file also shows the vehicle was not involved in a wreck. That is a very strange outcome for a car driving uncontrollably at a high rate of speed with no working brakes.
"Malfunction Could Not Be Duplicated"
On Feb. 23, a House Energy & Commerce subcommittee held lengthy hearings on the Toyota situation. Their first witnesses after the committee members' opening statements were Eddie and Rhonda Smith of Sevierville, Tenn., who related the story of their 2007 Lexus ES 350.
Ms. Smith claimed she had been driving toward Interstate 40 when, immediately after entering the highway, her Lexus started accelerating out of control. Ms. Smith related how the cruise-control light came on, so she turned that system off. She put the automatic transmission into all of its gears, including neutral and reserve. She put both feet on the brakes and still nothing. According to her testimony and an article published at WATE.com on Aug. 29, 2007, she also engaged the parking brake. She called her husband—not that she felt he could help, but "just to hear his voice one more time"—and then, according to her testimony, "prayed for God to help me." Ms. Smith credited God with intervening after she'd gone six miles at more than 100 mph. The car simply started slowing down, and she could finally bring it to a complete stop.
Smith's testimony was riveting and highly emotional, and anyone watching could see she honestly believed she was relating what actually happened. No viewer could have been untouched by her sincerity. But that's not the end of her story.
Her local Lexus dealer examined her car and could find nothing. Then, as Ms. Smith related, the NHTSA actually sent an employee down to Tennessee to investigate her complaint. Only the NHTSA concluded that she had two sets of floor mats in her car—a rubber all-weather floor mat, placed on top of the standard factory issue—and it was likely that situation had created her problem. In fact, Smith was quoted in 2007 as saying, "I think it's sad that these mats were installed like they were."
The Smiths dismissed the dealer's findings, the NHTSA's, and an arbitration board's by saying that they had been "called liars." More than likely the investigators simply said that there was no evidence they could find to explain the situation as she described it.
The Proof Would Be Visible
In a case like this, some physical evidence would remain; and a thorough investigation should be able to determine what truly took place. Certainly slamming on the emergency brake, as Smith claimed she had done in 2007, leaves tangible evidence. Here's why.
The parking brake in a Lexus ES 350 operates separately from the power brake system. It is a secondary disc/drum brake that is controlled by a direct link cable—so the car's electronics could not come into play. Moreover, once that cable-operated brake is fully engaged, it could lock up the nonpowered rear wheels of the Lexus, effectively negating the antilock brake system's ability to operate. And locking the real wheels on a Lexus ES 350 moving at a high rate of speed would "sand" the bottom of the tires against the pavement. In a partially engaged position, it will heat up and cause brake damage. But either way, because it is being applied on the rear wheels—and the Lexus ES is a front-wheel-drive car—it would still slow the car down.
This is the one thing Rhonda Smith claimed she tried and it didn't work that no one can blame on ghosts in the electronics.
As for Ms. Smith's position that she threw her car into reverse and it did nothing to either stop the car or damage the transmission, that's an incredible claim that so far no mechanic believes. Just as anyone who has ever tested cars knows that full pressure to the brakes will always override engine speed. (It should be noted that on Toyota's hybrids you can put the car in reverse while in motion, and nothing will happen.)
Rhonda Smith thanked Sean Kane, president of for-profit auto industry safety consultant Safety Research & Strategies Inc. for inviting her to testify on Tuesday. For those who didn't watch the proceedings, the most humorous part was Kane trying to get out of answering the direct question, Did part of his funding come from litigation attorneys who are actively suing Toyota on this issue? In fact, they do pay him. According to a Feb. 13 article in The Wall Street Journal, the Rehoboth (Mass.)-based company works with plaintiff's attorneys to file suits against the automakers it investigates.
Follow-up: The Smiths sold their Lexus after that incident, and, also according to the Journal, last week the NHTSA checked with the new owners and "they have had no problems with the Lexus since they bought it with less than 3,000 miles on the car."
"Findings" Hardly Scientific
Herein lies the problem with congressional hearings on issues like this. The individuals who should have testified following Eddie and Rhonda Smith could have been the NHTSA expert who flew to Tennessee, inspected her vehicle, and concluded that it was likely the double layer of floor mats. Or the certified mechanic at her Lexus dealership likewise could have told Congress how he could find no evidence of mechanical failure with her car. Who knows, their testimony might have validated her claims, had it been proved that they did little or nothing to truly try to uncover what happened that day. Conversely, things could have gone the other way. But we all would have had a better, more balanced understanding of her case as stated.
Instead, we were treated to Dr. David Gilbert of Southern Illinois University, also a guest of Mr. Kane's, who claimed to have found how Toyota's electronic system could totally malfunction, creating a runaway car—and claimed he'd found the error in less than four hours. Spoiler alert: Dr. Gilbert was assigned this work by Kane's safety advocacy firm, with at least partial funding by trial lawyers.
Here, too, is a problem: Dr. Gilbert said he relayed the results of that test and his concerns directly to Toyota. In short order Toyota looked into Dr. Gilbert's claims and found them not to be valid in terms of creating unintended acceleration. Then, to the company's surprise, it watched his appearance with Brian Ross on ABC News this past Monday night, Feb. 22.
According to Toyota, it now appears that Dr. Gilbert had done something completely different in order to get a Toyota Avalon to accelerate under its own power. Toyota offered to evaluate Dr. Gilbert's Avalon, with ABC in attendance, and see what he did electronically to cause it to accelerate.
Additionally, Toyota is fairly adamant that Gilbert's "test evaluation" on ABC News was not the original "discovery" he relayed to them on Feb. 16.
Back in the Hot Seat
Back in the congressional hearings, Representative Bobby Rush (D-Ill.) played another tragedy for the committee. It was the case mentioned in my last column, that of the Toyota Avalon that on Dec. 26, 2009, went into a pond and killed four people in Southlake, Tex. Rush apparently felt he should go on record before Congress about this because one of the individuals killed in that tragedy had a relative in his district.
Rush's emotionally charged statement concerns a case that continues to reverberate. Yet it should be noted that Southlake police saw no evidence that the driver attempted to brake before the Avalon entered the water. One eyewitness claimed to have passed the car prior to the accident and been unable to see a driver sitting up.
More troubling is the insinuation in the media by the driver's widow that the car had been taken several times to Texas Toyota of Grapevine for unintended acceleration with no problem found. The family's attorney, Randy Roberts of Tyler, Tex., repeated her allegations this past weekend in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. However, Chris Grady, general manager of Texas Toyota, has already turned over the service records on that Avalon to both Toyota and Mr. Roberts. And those records show that the Avalon had been in their shop once and once only—for nothing more than an oil change. There were no complaints on any malfunction whatsoever.
As it turns out, no Toyota dealer in the whole South Central region had ever had any complaints about unintended acceleration, before this story broke nationally. At the Gulf States Toyota mid-winter meeting, attended by more than 150 dealers, an official asked for a show of hands of any dealers who'd ever had such a complaint in their service department prior to this story breaking nationally. And in this closed meeting, according to three dealers who were present, not one dealer raised a hand.
Furthermore, why didn't Congress simply ask Toyota to provide a complete list of all warranty claims on this complaint made before the media made their serious allegations? That would have taken this issue out of the realm of speculation into one of hard facts.
Forgetting the Question: Is It True?
If only to resolve the rabid focus on Toyota's problems, it's past time to turn this over to the engineers. Innuendo, emotion, and speculation are not how one resolves an issue such as this. Even in the hearings in Congress, it appeared that most witnesses were tied to safety advocates, litigation attorneys, and traumatized victims; that's like trying a case in court with no defense attorneys. The outcome is almost preordained.
Maybe that's the point.
Instead of endlessly repeating "the NHTSA has 3,000 or so listed complaints on this problem," the media should bear in mind that many cases in that number are not actually "complaints," per se. Continuing to use that statistic just keeps misleading the audience. So let's cull the reported number down to just the accidents, those that can't be explained fully, and study them.
There's no escaping the fact that many of the vehicle-blamed accidents reported were actually caused by driver error (something Toyota will never say out loud), and many of the owners of these automobiles know that. As noted before, brakes always win out over engines, even at full throttle; that has been tested and proved many times in the past 20 years, including recent Car and Driver tests on Toyotas. So, if someone claims a car was speeding out of control and the brakes refused to work, from an engineering viewpoint that claim is instantly suspect.
Cut to the Bonfire
If Congress really wanted to get at the truth, they should have called disinterested third-party engineers to study and get their opinion on this case. Nobody believes Toyota, even if the final facts prove it's correct. Everyone believes the witnesses, even when the engineering evidence often disproves their testimony. It is impossible to come to a scientifically valid conclusion under those two circumstances, which is why many individuals involved in this issue have described the proceedings as "witch hunts."
Come to think of it, maybe that's exactly how the hearings should be run for full entertainment value.
Congress should reconvene the hearings in Salem, Mass. They could tie a Toyota to a long pole and dunk it into Beverly Harbor. If the Toyota sinks, then Congress will find the company guilty of all charges. But if the Toyota floats, we'll find the automaker innocent. This should be done in real time to get the maximum TV audience; although the outcome would, again, be predetermined, it should still be a ratings grabber.
The alternative is to let the mechanics and engineers do their jobs and either find the fault or give everyone a reasonable explanation for what happened. The only problem with that suggestion is it's already been done. And no one wants to accept the conclusions.
Ed Wallace is a recipient of the the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the G. and R. Loeb Foundation, and is a member of the American Historical Society. His column leads the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's "Sunday Drive" section. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Four's Good Day, contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online, and hosts the top-rated talk show Wheels Saturdays from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. on 570 KLIF.
elkknuckle
02-26-10, 11:09
...Oh and I forgot to mention my wife's Jeep Liberty had to have the computer replaced. It was gifted to us from my parents, and my mom was on the interstate. Car just went dead, and had to be towed to the dealer.
my old unit was an air control squadron, and they have a big air defense radar that will shut off any newer jeep and a few other cars if your driving by when the sweep hits your vehicle. kinda funny, but wouldnt be if the speed limit was any higher than 10 mph
ForTehNguyen
03-04-10, 08:29
finally an independent professional mechanic/engineer chimes in. Something that was needed instead of crying emo testimony by bad drivers and professors or safety advocates firms that are on the payroll of trial lawyers.
Toyota Sudden Unintended Acceleration - Pedal and Electronics - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4347704.html)
Anatomy of Toyota's Problem Pedal: Mechanic's Diary
What's the real problem behind Toyota's unintended acceleration? Is it simply a sticky pedal, or is the trouble more fundamental? PM senior automotive editor Mike Allen delves into modern car tech, explaining why widespread theories about electrical throttle problems and electromagnetic interference are misguided.
Toyota has recalled millions of cars and trucks—4.2 million to replace floor mats that might impede throttle-pedal travel, and 2.4 million to install a shim behind the electronic pedal assembly. All of the affected pedal assemblies were made by Canadian supplier CTS. Toyota's boffins have documented a problem that can make a few of these pedals slow to return, and maybe even stick down. Problem solved.
But the media, Congress—and personal-injury lawyers—smell the blood in the water. Not to diminish the injuries and a few deaths attributable to these very real mechanical problems, but they're statistically only a very small blip, which may explain why Toyota took so long to identify the issue, especially when it has symptoms similar to the similarly documented floor mat recall. Plus, sudden unintended acceleration (SUA) is notoriously difficult to diagnose because, more often then not, the problem can't be repeated in front of a mechanic. Let's not forget the Audi SUA episode back in the '80s; the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration eventually concluded that there was no mechanical problem. The culprit, as hard as this is to admit, was most likely driver error. To put the issue into context, in the last decade, there were about 24,000 customer complaints about SUA involving almost every major automaker. The NHTSA investigated fewer than 50.
The issue now is whether there's a more insidious problem unrelated to the two recalls already extant. Specifically, whether there's some design flaw in the entire concept of electronic throttle control. Some are questioning whether electromagnetic interference from devices like cellphones could be contributing to the acceleration problems.
Toyota Hardware
It used to be that there was a steel cable that ran from the pedal itself through the firewall and attached to the throttle blades that admitted air to the intake manifold. A sticking throttle could be the result of friction anywhere—in the pedal pivot, between the cable itself and its nylon-lined sheath, or in the carburetor or fuel-injection throttle blades. (Does anybody remember carburetors?). Modern cars, which make up the majority on the market today, use a throttle pedal assembly that is connected to the engine only electronically. Signals are carried over wires to the engine management computer, which in turn sends electrical impulses to the stepper motor that actually controls the throttle blades.
Sounds like there are plenty of places for gremlins to seize control of the works, right? And that's where pundits who don't really understand the architecture of throttle-by-wire systems go wrong. It's all in the engineering.
Let's start at bottom of it all—your foot, which moves the pedal fore and aft in relation to the firewall. Inside the pedal assembly is a spring to make it return as you lift off, a device to add a little friction that dampens the movement (Your foot would tire in short order if there wasn't some damping), and a transducer of some sort that turns the movement of the pedal into an electrical signal. That transducer is a simple device, invented in 1879 by Edwin Hall (not 1979; 1879). It consists of only a single slab of semiconductor with a few wires attached to its edge, one on each end and one in the middle. With a voltage applied to the end wires, it acts as a voltage divider. Placing a magnet near the sensor changes the magnetic lines of flux, which literally push the electrons away from the electrodes and changes the voltage at the center wire. The magnet, in the Toyota case, is on the pedal arm. As the pedal moves, it alters the voltage at the semiconductor and that's how the engine computer knows the position of the pedal. The benefit of Hall-effect sensors is that there's no mechanical connection to corrode, no internal resistance, and other electronics, such as amplifiers, aren't needed. You could make one on your kitchen table with a refrigerator magnet and some doorbell wire.
There are two discrete Hall-effect sensors in the Toyota/CTS pedal, which is common industry practice. Just to make sure the sensors aren't confused, they run on totally separate circuits back to the ECM, three wires each. They don't even share an electrical ground. Like many onboard automobile sensors, they are also completely isolated from the vehicle ground. To reduce the potential for interference or mistakes, they operate at different voltages. The first sensor, known as ACCEL POS #1, has a nominal voltage range from 0.5 volts to 1.1 volts at idle and 2.5 volts to 4.5 volts at wide-open-throttle (WOT). The second sensor, ACCEL POS #2, delivers from 1.2 volts to 2.0 volts at idle and 3.4 volts to 5.0 volts at WOT. Why such a wide range of permissible voltages? The engine computer (ECM) recalibrates the sensor regularly, every time you start the car and the ECM goes through its power-on self-test.
Both accelerator-pedal-position Hall-effect sensors have to agree fairly closely, or the ECM will go into its limp-home mode, which turns on the Check Engine light and sets a trouble code.
There's more. If Toyota's engine-management scheme is anything like that of most other car companies, firmware inside the ECM also monitors the airflow into the engine, the throttle blade position and engine rpm, and calculates backwards to what the throttle pedal position should be. Any discrepancy, and a trouble code is set, the Check Engine light on the dash goes on, and you're dialing the service manager to make an appointment.
Toyota Hardware
Bottom line: The system is not only redundant, it's double-redundant. The signal lines from the pedal to the ECM are isolated. The voltages used in the system are DC voltages—any RF voltages introduced into the system, by, say, that microwave oven you have in the passenger seat, would be AC voltages, which the ECM's conditioned inputs would simply ignore. Neither your cellphone nor Johnny's PlayStation have the power to induce much confusion into the system.
These throttle-by-wire systems are very difficult to confuse—they're designed to be robust, and any conceivable failure is engineered to command not an open throttle but an error message.
So what to make of the unintended acceleration cases popping up by the dozens? Not the ones explainable by problem sticky pedals, but the ones documented by people who claim their vehicle ran away on its own, with no input, and resisted all attempts to stop it? Some can probably be explained as an attempt to get rid of a car consumers no longer desire. Some are probably the result of Audi 5000 Syndrome, where drivers simply lost track of their feet and depressed the gas instead of the brake. It's happened to me: Luckily I recognized the phenomenon and corrected before it went bang. Others may not have the presence of mind.
But the possibility that a vehicle could go from idling at a traffic light to terrific, uncalled-for and uncontrollable acceleration because the guy next to you at a traffic light answered his cellphone? Or some ghost in the machine or a hacker caused a software glitch that made your car run away and the brakes suddenly simultaneously fail? Not in the least bit likely. Toyota deserves a better deal than the media and Congress are giving it.
I have a solution to the whole Toyota debacle
I have not been convinced that there is a problem with the vehicles.
Japan's new minister's comments about changing the political and financial relationship with the US? Well, I think they are finding that the "paper tiger" US still has fangs and claws...
How about dropping the vehicle into neutral.....Lack of skills can be just as deadly as equipment malfunctions. Goes for firearms as well as cars.
Why don't the networks put out a PSA on this....? We don't need something else put on the vehicle that training can prevent (or fail).
Training is the issue...not another "safety feature"...
ForTehNguyen
03-04-10, 12:03
Why don't the networks put out a PSA on this....? We don't need something else put on the vehicle that training can prevent (or fail).
Training is the issue...not another "safety feature"...
fearmongering not safety minutes makes for greater ratings
Somehow I think suggesting people should know how to operate a vehicle would be considered right wing/racist/evangelical...
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-04-10, 20:58
From what I've heard it happens when thrown into neutral, parking brake applied, put into reverse, continues when it runs out of gas and only happens to above average drivers.
I know ZDL was mentioning some first hand and close second hand stories, but Occam's razor has to cut the BS in a lot of these stories. We have all dealt with gremlins in automatic systems, but pure demonic possesion is hard to rationalize.
The comment about the Lexus having a cable parking brake and it failed to stop a 'run away car' is pretty damning.
ForTehNguyen
03-04-10, 22:27
brakes have always been stronger than the cars engine, its laughable for people to say the brakes didnt work. Its been like this for over 20 years. Even Audi 5000 brakes overpower the engine even at WOT.
60-0 mph times are significantly lower than 0-60 times, the dead giveaway that brakes are stronger than the engine. Even the 1001 hp Veyron brakes are stronger than that engine.
Basically it comes down to cost and performance. The electronic system is alot more precise. And again, these problems are not because of the drive by wire system.
Electric assist steering SUCKS. I don't think it's "more precise", per se. Let me explain. It lacks FEEL. I'm a sports car guy and while I'll take ABS and if you drive something like, say, a Porsche 996 or 997 - especially the higher hp ones then some form of vehicle dynamics assist options may not be a bad idea but leave the steering wheel alone.
The true reason for electronic assist steering is FUEL ECONOMY savings. Period.
Alpha Sierra
03-05-10, 04:58
Doesn't work. Have you listened to any of the testimonies? I can tell you from first hand experience: That doesn't work. My mom had a lexus with this issue. Manifested itself in some very strange ways. Absolutely nothing could be done during it's spaz cycle. Saw the tach pin itself while in gear but the car not move. Had it sharply accelerate when shifted into neutral. Had the car's electronics (radio etc.) go out while on the road including head lights, at night. Lexus didn't believe us at first. After the 4th time in the shop, while they were bringing it around for her, the service tech crashed into fence and parked car due to unintended acceleration. Something else, sometimes the accelerator wouldn't work at all. You'd push it all the way to floor and nothing. Then all of sudden once you let off it would leap forward. At the time we all thought it was a fluke. I guess not.
All of this is documented by the way, for those of you who think this is some giant conspiracy...... :rolleyes:
Park is a mechanical lock on the transmission. It ALWAYS works.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-05-10, 08:58
The cars are all pissed we make them do all the parallel parking now, this is their revenge.
Try to hybridize me bitch! I'll show you whoz boss!!
brakes have always been stronger than the cars engine, its laughable for people to say the brakes didnt work. Its been like this for over 20 years. Even Audi 5000 brakes overpower the engine even at WOT.
60-0 mph times are significantly lower than 0-60 times, the dead giveaway that brakes are stronger than the engine. Even the 1001 hp Veyron brakes are stronger than that engine.
Is that a serious statement? 60-0 times are not timed with WOT. The people that have had the recall work done are already complaining that the fix did not work.
ForTehNguyen
03-05-10, 10:06
Is that a serious statement? 60-0 times are not timed with WOT. The people that have had the recall work done are already complaining that the fix did not work.
uh yea, even at WOT Audi 5000 and Camry/ES350 brakes overpowered engines, even the 280 hp ones on the V6 Camry and ES350. Its been like this for the past 20 years. Car and Driver did their own test and a WOT braking Camry stopped not that much longer compared to normal braking. So for anyone to say brakes didnt work is a lowsy defense for driver stupidity. Go try this with any car, brakes always beat engine. Drivers have a vast array of countermeasures to stop a "runaway" car and they still fail at it. Drivers are stupid, period.
SUA wasnt even a widespread problem in the first place, 20000 SUA complaints total from all manufacturers and NHTSA only investigates 50 of them, because most of the time its a BS waste of time. Any idiot can go to the website and put in a complaint.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/braking-results/3141454-1-eng-US/braking-results.jpg
ForTehNguyen
03-08-10, 09:08
owned, engineering consulting firm, Exponent, debunks Gilbert's test using his own methodology posted on ABCs website. Not to mention he didn't actually short anything. When I heard last week he was using a resistor to "short" out something, that smelt like BS. At least a company like Exponent is state registered and licensed so they cant screw around with results, unlike Gilbert of course who has no such regulation.
Basically what he did was this. He used a resistor make connections that would knock down the 5V power supply signal and send that signal to one of the inputs that are voted. Mind you this new voltage is within range of what that input expects. Also it will not work with other resistor values less than 50 or greater than 250, because it would send the voltage out of range. Each car manufacturer has different voltage values it looks for so you can accomplish the same thing, just alter the resistance value to get your voltage. Since both were still within range of the nominal voltages, of course no fault would be detected. Good luck seeing any of this happen in the real world.
The only thing they say is missing is shorts to power or ground, which is wiring faults. Should they generate faults? Even NASA seems to think they shouldnt, because wiring faults have a much lower probability than major components of a machine breaking.
ABC can join 60 Minutes and Dateline into automotive reporting fraud. What a joke of an expert. Never trust a damn reporter to report technical information, they will not do any fact checking and just report fearmongering for ratings. Next time trust engineers, mechanics not experts on the payroll of trial lawyers, and safety advocates tied to said lawyers. Lesson to all: in a world of electrical signals, its even easier to any signals around and create your own results.
be warned, article below requires basic electrical knowledge
Gilbert?s Toyota Shenanigans Explained | The Truth About Cars (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gilbert%E2%80%99s-toyota-shenanigans-explained/)
Gilbert’s Toyota Shenanigans Explained
By Bertel Schmitt on March 7, 2010
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/03/Gilbertcircuit1.jpg
This is left brain – right brain weekend. While the more image driven can submerge themselves in pictures of old car ads, the other faction can unleash their inner nerd with abandon. Yesterday, we covered how ABC had entered the grail of automotive disaster-fakery, previously populated by NBC and CBS. ABC’s smoking gun video had been torn to shreds.
Today, we turn our attention to the man who aided and abetted the tricksters: Associate professor David Gilbert of the renowned Southern Illinois University. His work has been inspected by Exponent, a research company hired by Toyota. Hired by Toyota? Well, that should discredit Exponent immediately. Not so fast.
Crash Sled thankfully has found a full copy of Exponent’s retort to Gilbert’s machinations. The report is hosted on the ABC website, so we can assume it passed ABC’s scrutiny, for what that may be worth. Let’s look at the report a little closer.
Warning: This discussion needs a basic understanding of electric circuitry. If that’s not your thing, then don’t waste you time reading further. We’ll leave you to Sunday’s pictures with the message that Gilbert is a charlatan extraordinaire, and that whoever put him on the stand to make a case against Toyota needs to have his or her head examined. However, should you own a 2010 Toyota Avalon, then you have slight cause for concern.
Quick review of the theory: You may remember the discussion that ensued after Ed Niedermeyer had first presented Gilbert’s work a little bit more than a week ago. Gilbert had introduced what he called “a short” to the throttle-by-wire circuitry of a Toyota, and the car took off. A big parsing of words ensued about what consists of a short, and what not. Never mind. Now we know what Gilbert had done.
Follow me please to the picture on top. Ignore the red and green part for a moment, we get to that in a minute. You see the basic circuitry of a Toyota Electronic Throttle Control System (ETCS.) It consists of two separate Hall sensors (housed in the “Accelerator Position Sensor”). The Hall sensors talk to the Engine Control Module (ECM). The throttle position is sent twice to the ECM, via the VPA wire and via the VPA2 wire.
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/03/ETCS-Theory.jpg
The voltages on VPA and VPA2 are offset, the theory behind it becomes clear when examining the “ETCS Theory” picture on the left. This picture has been lifted from educational material, thanks to ControlsGuy.
Now what did Gilbert do? According to the Exponent document, he did what anybody would do who knows a little bit about resistors, and who has the educational material made available by ControlsGuy. Actually, just from looking at the data, I had recommended exactly the same procedure 10 days ago.
Follow the red circuit. Gilbert connected the VPA output of the primary Hall sensor to the VPA2 output of the secondary Hall sensor. He did not “short” it (this would have caused an immediate fault,) he connected it through a carefully selected 200 ohms resistor. Anything below 50 ohms and anything higher than 250 ohms would have triggered a fault. According to Exponent, “adding the resistance did not noticeably change the operation of the engine.” This does not come as a surprise to someone who knows his V = I * R. To get the engine going, Gilbert had to do something else.
Follow the green part of the circuit. Gilbert connected VPA2 to what Exponent calls “one of the 5-volt power supply wires from the accelerator pedal,” and the car took off without setting a fault. Why? Because the engine computer saw the voltages on VPA and VPA2 rise in unison. Balanced by the carefully chosen resistor, the voltages on both lines rose within the offset limits. The ECM had no reason to get alarmed, or set a fault code. It told the throttle to open wide. Gilbert carefully engineered the setup so that the ECM saw what it wanted to see. The ECM can read and compare voltages. It cannot read a wicked mind.
By the way, Gilbert and Exponent say that this circuit trickery only works if the VPA2 side is connected to +5V. Connecting VPA to +5V would trigger a fault. Students of the ETCS Theory diagram immediately see why: VPA would go to 5V, would rise above VPA2, the ECM would decide that things are solidly out of whack and would immediately surrender into limp mode.
For the Intended Gilbert Acceleration to occur in the wild, several things would have to happen in the exact sequence: First, the isolation for both VPA and VPA2 would have to break down. Then, a connection between VPA and VPA2 would have to be established. Into this connection, a resistance of no less than 50 ohms and no higher than 250 ohms would have to be connected. Once, and only once this connection between VPA and VPA2 has been established through the proper resistor, VPA2 (and not VPA) would have to be connected to +5V. Then, the car would take off.
Says Exponent: “For such an event to happen in the real world requires a sequence of faults that is extraordinarily unlikely.” What is more, the unlikely sequence would have left “a fingerprint” as Exponent calls it, broken or scorched insulation, stains, if not the “short” itself. Nothing of that kind has been recorded.
One minor problem remains. That problem has not been raised by Gilbert (shame on you,) nor by Exponent (well, they are paid by Toyota:) Connecting VPA2 to +5V should be recognized as a short to power, and the system should go into limp mode. We don’t know whether the Avalon would go into limp with the 200 ohms resistor removed and VPA2 connected to +5V. Let’s assume it would. Nonetheless, a basic failsafe step is missing in the Avalon. And the Avalon is pretty much alone with this problem, as we shall soon see.
Exponent went on to test the same setup with six other cars: A 2007 Toyota Camry, a 2009 Mercedes E350, a 2003 BMW 325i, a 2008 Honda Accord, a 2006 Subaru Impreza Outback, and a 2005 Chrysler Crossfire. Interestingly, the Gilbert rigging produced the same results in all cars. Same results. But not quite the same rigging.
When the 2007 Toyota Camry was tested, nothing happened again when VPA was connected with VPA2 through a 200 ohms resistor. However, when VPA2 was connected to +5V, the ECM registered a fault, did set an error code and put the Camry into limp mode. The older Camry computer recognized the short to power. Exponent had to do what I thought necessary 10 days ago.
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/03/Gilbertcircuit2-430x350.jpg
Please proceed to the next drawing. Follow the green circuit. Exponent added a 100 ohm (Resistor 2) into the line to +5V. Resistor 2 dropped the supply voltage to a level that would not look like a short. The engine started to rev. Again, that was expected. The 200 ohms Resistor 1 maintained the offset between VPA and VPA2. The 100 ohms Resistor 2 kept the signal voltage from looking unhealthy. Varying Resistor 2 between 200 ohms and 15 ohms changed engine speed: A low cost aftermarket cruise control (don’t try this at home.)
Testing the other cars provided the same results. The Honda Accord needed a 300 ohms resistor between the two redundant pedal sensors. The Subaru wanted a 100 ohms resistor. The others were happy with the 200 ohms. All cars needed a resistor between +5, just like the Camry. None of them did set an error code. Smoking gun? More like smoke and mirrors.
If you remember the discussion 10 days ago, the “inverted” setting of the redundant sensors in non-Toyotas drew quite some attention. Exponent notes that “for the Subaru, the two accelerator pedal position sensors produce parallel and nearly identical output voltages. For the other vehicles, the line slopes for sensor 1 and sensor 2 are different and not parallel to each other.” Surprisingly, this did not harden their circuitry against Gilbert-like shenanigans.
Says Exponent: “Dr. Gilbert opined in his report that several vehicle manufacturers currently use this fault detection strategy and that a short between the two pedal sensor outputs would be detected by the ECM. However, tests with pedal position sensors from five other manufacturers using his strategy demonstrate that the electrical wiring to the pedal can also be manipulated to create an apparent ‘sudden’ onset of acceleration and engine revving.” (Exponent does not say what happens when you vary the resistance to +5V and hence the input voltage, like they did with the Camry.)
There is much more in the report, such as a study of connectors, a look into the likelihood of wiring insulation, ECM and pedal failures. There is even a quote from NASA’s Fault Tree Construction Ground Rules that recommend to ignore shorts to ground and power: “Do not model wiring faults between components. Generally, wiring faults, such as shorts to ground and shorts to power, have very low probabilities compared to probabilities of major components failing.” What’s good enough for the space shuttle is not necessarily good enough for your car. In any case, study of this material is left as an exercise to the student.
Class and Professor dismissed.
Just buy a Hyundai.
Our Santa Fe is 60% ROK , 40% US/CAN and assembled in Alabama.
:)
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