View Full Version : S&W M&P with Insight MRDS
Brother Rat
02-24-10, 17:05
I literally just threw this together an hour ago, so it's not even zeroed yet. Hopefully I'll get that done tomorrow assuming I'm not shoveling my driveway here in NoVA. So far I've spent about the past half hour doing the draw, presentation, and dry-fire thing, trying to get the hang of acquiring the dot. It's about as difficult as I expected, which is to say that the primary problem is finding the dot when your grip is off. Otherwise, this seems like it's going to have similar benefits to adding a RDS to a carbine. Hopefully I'll get some range time in the next two weeks or so and see if I can't wring this setup out. For now some pics:
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww112/Brotherrat/100_1899.jpg
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww112/Brotherrat/100_1904.jpg
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww112/Brotherrat/100_1903.jpg
Once I get good with it and I make sure nothing's going to break on me, I'll be using this as my carry setup.
Specs:
Insight MRDS - 7MOA
JP Enterprises - J-Point Mount
Arredondo - J-Point to Docter Adapter shim
NinjaMedic
02-24-10, 20:12
Wow could that be any higher profile? While effective why not go with the jpoint? Longer life, lower profile, BUIS built in etc . . .
Brother Rat
02-24-10, 20:50
You'd think the height would be a problem right? So far, just playing around with it this evening, it's proving to be less and less of an issue as I get used to using it.
As to why I chose this over the J-Point, this sight is supposed to be far more rugged. I'm aware that tons of people have used J-Points for a long time without issue, but if I'm carrying this for social purposes I like knowing that it passed military tests for water and impact resistance. I may not be rolling around in the surf zone with this on my pistol, but it's just layers of reliability. Another issue is that the J-Point has to be removed to replace the battery, the MRDS has a battery hatch in the top. Perhaps a minor issue, but still. Also, the MRDS has positive click adjustments when zeroing and the intensity of the reticle is adjustable as well as having an auto mode, allowing this sight to be used in complete darkness or with night vision. Not that I own any nods.
Time will tell if this works for me, and if it doesn't, I have an AK that's begging to have this optic put on it.
Your set up looks great. I currently have a Trijicon/Jpoint milled into the slide of my M&P and although I really like my set up (sits very low & has a rear sight notch), I like the Insight Tec MRD better. I have one mounted on my Five-seveN pistol and one on my Remmy 870 shotgun. No other MRD gives you a top loading battery compartment as well as 1/8 moa positive click windage and elevation adjusters. It's also nice that it is totally water proof, has night vision settings and is bomb proof. If you use the Insight on an AR or shotty they make a protective hood for it like EOTechs.
MadDog :p
Wow could that be any higher profile? While effective why not go with the jpoint? Longer life, lower profile, BUIS built in etc . . .
That's not high (FYI). This is high:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_RMR03.jpg
Guess what though, I run it just fine.
The problem with JPOINT's is that that they are just not reliable. If you are going to mount a RDS on a pistol, it really needs to be one of the new "ruggedized" models that are being built for a .Mil contract. This means that the Insight MRDS and Trijicon RMR are your best choices.
C4
1911sforever
02-25-10, 10:14
These threads are going to cost me plenty.
NinjaMedic
02-25-10, 22:49
So do you consider a BUIS option less of a necessity on a pistol? I am interested in this type of configuration however I am also personally uncomfortable carrying a weapon without some way to quickly revert to iron sights. My concern with the overall profile isnt about lack of performance while shooting but I would think that having a larger sight would be a detriment on a duty weapon as you would be more likely to bang it into things during daily holstered wear, or climbing into and out of vehicles etc. Also the lower edges of the sight and mount on the OP's pistol would seem to create more of a snag hazard with concealment clothing. Perhaps my concerns are unfounded it may be much less unwieldy in practical use than I am imagining.
Brother Rat
02-26-10, 08:12
So do you consider a BUIS option less of a necessity on a pistol? I am interested in this type of configuration however I am also personally uncomfortable carrying a weapon without some way to quickly revert to iron sights. My concern with the overall profile isnt about lack of performance while shooting but I would think that having a larger sight would be a detriment on a duty weapon as you would be more likely to bang it into things during daily holstered wear, or climbing into and out of vehicles etc. Also the lower edges of the sight and mount on the OP's pistol would seem to create more of a snag hazard with concealment clothing. Perhaps my concerns are unfounded it may be much less unwieldy in practical use than I am imagining.
I considered this heavily before I went down this road. The conclusion I arrived at was that these little sights are becoming so reliable as to make it almost a non-issue, providing that the batteries are changed at regular intervals. Of course, this isn’t necessary with the dual illuminated RMR or the Aimpoint T-1, but those two sights also don’t have the options that the MRDS does. I understand fully the risk I’m taking, but with this new generation of RDS, it’s a calculated risk with huge potential payoffs in sighting capabilities. Now, if someone comes out with a low profile, ruggedized, J-Point pattern sight that can co-witness with irons, then obviously that’s the ideal. Until then, I feel pretty comfortable with what I’ve got, and we’ll see how it holds up over time. Also, when I actually get to get out and train, I want to test out the capability of this sight as a ghost ring when turned off. I suspect that’s a 5-7m technique at best, but we’ll see how it shakes out and I’ll report back.*
As to the size and profile of the sight, I don’t think it’s as big a deal as you perceive it to be. Drawing and presenting from appendix carry a bunch of times since I got it, I think I managed to get it caught on my shirt once, and IIRC I was intentionally pulling my shirt up in a halfhearted fashion to see what would happen. I don’t believe it poses any more of a problem than many rear sights that have an area designed to allow the user to rack the slide one-handed against a belt or similar. As is acquiring the dot at speed, it’s a training issue.
Regarding smacking it into stuff in daily use, that’s why the only options for serious use are the ruggedized mini optics. These optics are designed to be able to take it and retain zero.
I did get a chance to take it out and zero it yesterday, and I have to say so far I’m impressed. I didn’t have a lot of time so I only put 100 rounds through it. Firing 5 round groups, it took about 25 rounds to get it zeroed to my satisfaction at 25m. Most of the remainder of the ammo was spent making tiny little groups at various distances, but I did shoot a few 3 round strings as fast as I could. I don’t want to get too heavy into shooting terminology here, but what I was doing could be called “triple taps,” and I never lost the dot from my field of view. Think “bangbangbang.” If you’ve ever fired an NSR with a carbine equipped with a RDS, it was a lot like that. I think a lot of that could be attributed to the fact that the M&P9 is an exceptionally soft-shooting pistol and I don’t know if I could keep enough of a kung-fu grip to do that with another platform/caliber however. Bear in mind these are just my thoughts based on a lot of dry-fire and a grand total of 100 rounds, so don’t read too far into it. I’m still waiting on a good training day to get some real testing done.
*To give credit where credit is due, I got the idea for that from Gabe Suarez.
So do you consider a BUIS option less of a necessity on a pistol? I am interested in this type of configuration however I am also personally uncomfortable carrying a weapon without some way to quickly revert to iron sights. My concern with the overall profile isnt about lack of performance while shooting but I would think that having a larger sight would be a detriment on a duty weapon as you would be more likely to bang it into things during daily holstered wear, or climbing into and out of vehicles etc. Also the lower edges of the sight and mount on the OP's pistol would seem to create more of a snag hazard with concealment clothing. Perhaps my concerns are unfounded it may be much less unwieldy in practical use than I am imagining.
Yes, as most people NATURALLY point shoot when under stress (like in a gun fight). ;)
I personally have a secondary option with the CT laser grips. One of the reasons why I went with the RMR (dual model) is that there are NO ELECTRONICS in it. So the odds of this optic going down are slim to none (as there is really nothing to break).
I have been drawing from concealment with mine (which is too high and will be changed when the correct mounts come out) and have not had any issues.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-26-10, 12:08
Grant- In the concealed role, how does the added sight contribute to printing? How were you carrying it?
Thanks
Grant- In the concealed role, how does the added sight contribute to printing? How were you carrying it?
Thanks
None at all as the sight is in the forward position and there is an open "pocket" in that area generally.
You have much more printing issues from the grip than anything else.
C4
this can only lead to more spending...
Gabe Suarez
02-27-10, 19:35
I haqve been carrying an RMR equipped Glock concealed now for some time. No issues at all and no problems in hiding it. These sights are the wave of the future.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/RMRGLOCKSIGHTPIC2.1.jpg
Brother Rat
02-27-10, 21:13
Well that was a quick durability test… circa 130 rounds total:p. I was at the range the other day and after warming up with some groups, I shot some hammer pairs and the dot just flickered out. Bummer.
I tried repeatedly to turn it back on to no avail, and tried replacing the battery also with no effect. Insight has been notified, and I’m expecting a call back from them on Monday.
On the upside, I got a chance to test the “ghost ring” idea, and it does indeed work at close range. It works very well at 5m and in; I found that 10m is my personal outer limit for this technique.
My initial perception of the death of my optic is that I have what appears to be a lemon on my hands. I think you’ll all agree, especially given that there are lower-end optics out there with thousands and thousands of rounds under them that have not failed, that the MRDS I have is an anomaly. So, thus ends “Project RDS” for now, and begins “Project Let’s See How Insight Takes Care of Me.” They have a rep as a good company, so I’m expecting no difficulty.
Stand by for updates in what I assume will be a week or two.
They HAD a rep as a good company, now that L3 (http://www.l-3com.com/investor-relations/pressrelease.aspx?releaseID=1393097&category=NA) has bought them, we'll see if they end-up like EOTECH...
Between the Procyon fiasco and now the L3 buyout, I think I'm going to look at a Trijicon MRDS.
Gabe Suarez
02-28-10, 09:46
The Trijicon RMR I am using is 8 MOA. The Glock has had alot of ammo shot through it with the RMR on it. No issues at all. As an experiment I added a tall suppressor front sight on it giving me an interesting sight pic. Worked pretty good out to about 25 M.
RAM Engineer
02-28-10, 10:56
Between the Procyon fiasco and now the L3 buyout, I think I'm going to look at a Trijicon MRDS.
What is this "Procyon fiasco" of which you speak?
Well that was a quick durability test… circa 130 rounds total:p. I was at the range the other day and after warming up with some groups, I shot some hammer pairs and the dot just flickered out. Bummer.
I tried repeatedly to turn it back on to no avail, and tried replacing the battery also with no effect. Insight has been notified, and I’m expecting a call back from them on Monday.
On the upside, I got a chance to test the “ghost ring” idea, and it does indeed work at close range. It works very well at 5m and in; I found that 10m is my personal outer limit for this technique.
My initial perception of the death of my optic is that I have what appears to be a lemon on my hands. I think you’ll all agree, especially given that there are lower-end optics out there with thousands and thousands of rounds under them that have not failed, that the MRDS I have is an anomaly. So, thus ends “Project RDS” for now, and begins “Project Let’s See How Insight Takes Care of Me.” They have a rep as a good company, so I’m expecting no difficulty.
Stand by for updates in what I assume will be a week or two.
This post is not mean to disparage your choice in optics or your setup, but is meant to illustrate a point.
The above fail of the MRDS is why I believe that there has to be some rules/protocol when using a RDS on a pistol (that will be used for defensive purposes).
Rule # 1: The RDS has to be co-witnessed with irons.
Rule # 2: If the RDS is NOT co-witnessed, then there needs to be a reliable laser package on the gun.
To the OP, good luck with your issue.
C4
Brother Rat
02-28-10, 19:11
Grant:
I agree completely and those were the same conclusions I've come to in considering this over the past couple days. I can't do the laser because I have little girl hands and the Crimson Trace setup is bigger than I like. Another option is a rail-mounted laser, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms with regard to which one to get and finding a holster to fit it, etc. Which leaves having the optic sunk into the slide, and possibly a taller front sight installed, a la Gabe a couple posts up. Currently looking at some options for getting this done locally, but I'll be going out of town soon for a good 6 months, so it may be a while before I post that particular update here. It'll be interesting to see where this concept goes over the next year or so as it starts to catch on.
Grant:
I agree completely and those were the same conclusions I've come to in considering this over the past couple days. I can't do the laser because I have little girl hands and the Crimson Trace setup is bigger than I like. Another option is a rail-mounted laser, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms with regard to which one to get and finding a holster to fit it, etc. Which leaves having the optic sunk into the slide, and possibly a taller front sight installed, a la Gabe a couple posts up. Currently looking at some options for getting this done locally, but I'll be going out of town soon for a good 6 months, so it may be a while before I post that particular update here. It'll be interesting to see where this concept goes over the next year or so as it starts to catch on.
Roger that. Then I would consider the Trijicon RMR (Dual) as it is as robust as an ACOG.
C4
Dan Goodwin
03-01-10, 06:56
The Trijicon RMR I am using is 8 MOA. The Glock has had alot of ammo shot through it with the RMR on it. No issues at all. As an experiment I added a tall suppressor front sight on it giving me an interesting sight pic. Worked pretty good out to about 25 M.
So where did POI go after 25? Is that sight tall enough to work as a ghost ring? And who makes the front sight.
Interesting setup overall. Is that the Trijicon base?
So where did POI go after 25? Is that sight tall enough to work as a ghost ring? And who makes the front sight.
Interesting setup overall. Is that the Trijicon base?
Gabe has a more info on his setup at his website:
http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
Gabe Suarez
03-01-10, 08:31
Honestly I haven't fired for group with the "Ghost Ring" beyond 25 yards. I was experimenting for a project. Personally I don't really like the front sight up there and I think it clutters the sight picture. With the RMR, I shot for group at 25 and got 2.5" with USA Ammo. That is far better than I can do with iron sights. I am also getting first round hits on steel at 200 yards with it.
The tall front sight is something I had my technical services guys come up with to check on its viability. It is good at what it does, but I think I will go back to the original front sight and not be a worry wart about BUIS. The RMR is as tough as an ACOG.
I was reading some old stuff by Kelly McCann about the Docter on his Glock 19 and he has no BUIS. Similarly we have a friend of ours currently OCONUS working on a "project" and he is carrying a Red Dot sighted Glock in Africa with no BUIS. Maybe we worry about this issue too much....I won't. If the Docter is good enough for McCann, the RMR is twice the sight the Docter is.
The installation is not a Trijicon base, it is a Glock slide with a dovetail of sorts milled out to accept the RMR unit. This was the work of our technical guys as well. I like a low as possible sight platform...just like on rifles.
:confused: Not hard to find:
Tall front sight:
http://www.ameriglo.net/weapon_site/store_pages/glock_front_sights.html
Slide modification:
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/ (Buck is a M4C member)
http://www.glockwarehouse.com/
Brother Rat
03-01-10, 10:28
I just got off the phone with Insight customer service, and my experience could not have been more positive. Upon explaining what happened to the optic to one of their technicians, he recommended that the customer service section send a brand new optic sight unseen (no pun intended) overnight along with a return authorization to be completed at my leisure. I got a UPS shipping notification and tracking number in my email before I even hung up the phone, and I will indeed have a new one tomorrow. While this is really the only way for a company to act under these circumstances, it’s still a breath of fresh air to me given the horror stories others have related in dealing with some other optic manufacturers. Nine thumbs up to Insight.:cool:
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-01-10, 18:06
Gabe,
That is really sweet looking, thanks for the thru-the-sight picture. That is a tall sight on there! It seems like if there was a notch in the back of the rear sight, you could use a near normal front sight.
Maybe just as simple as a decal for on the back of the sights glass to make notch in the bottom 1/8 or so to line up with a more normal front sight
Gabe Suarez
03-03-10, 11:34
I have the staff working on another option as we speak. I will report more in a few days;)
Bowie Tactical
03-08-10, 14:42
http://http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2272/rmrcowitnesslores2.jpgHere is my M&P 45 with a RMR and the engraved line on the back for the co-witness to the front. I have a slightly taller front in place and it alignes as you can see very nicely. I am milling the slides and can do the witness line on your RMR with slide milling. Front sight i can supply as well if customer wants the proper co-witness. Even if the witness is off by a little it will be very little and this gives sights that you can use goddness forbid the dot dies. On M&P witness sight in can be done by drifting front sight once dot is sighted in. On glocks either wait and do a line on your own after sight in or the one i mill will be so close you will know what you have to do with a precise line up each time.
David Bowie
Bowie tactical
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-10, 17:59
How well could an RMR be integrated into a 1911 slide? How much material can be milled out to make room for the sight?
David; Can we get a side view picture of the RMR milled into the M&P slide? It does look a little wider then the Trijicon MRD you milled for me but I want to see how high and long it looks in comparison. If I went with the RMR on a new build I would probably go with the dual illumination and eliminate batteries all together.
MadDog :p
One of the most combat experienced SOF warriors I personally know has written the following about the dual illuminated RMR:
"I would stay away from fiber optic Trijicon offerings as a general rule. The Reflex is perhaps the worst optic ever created, so I'm not excited about shrinking it into a Doctor sight package."
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-10, 20:27
One of the most combat experienced SOF warriors I personally know has written the following about the dual illuminated RMR:
Doc,
That looks like a cut&paste quote, is the rest of it a private communication or was it posted somewhere? I'd like to learn more about the sights and issues they might have.
THX
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/661109475/p/1
John_Wayne777
03-09-10, 07:47
I agree with the assessment of the original Trijicon reflex sights...those things sucked balls. Grant is going to lend me his current Trijicon RMR at some point so I'll get to see if there are any washout problems with it.
One of the most combat experienced SOF warriors I personally know has written the following about the dual illuminated RMR:
The question I have is, has he run it yet? Correct that the reflex is the worst of the bunch, but the RMR is not the same and does a better job IMHO.
As I posted, a back up sighting system (laser or co-witnessed irons) is a must. So if the RMR DID washout, you have options.
C4
I sent a few rotten pics to rob s of one of my mp set ups with an rmr installed
Ill try to get a few better ones up a bit later to you guys robust is an understatement
the rmr is tough i ran an MRD from trijiocn for about a year in a compact mp it was tough as nails and id things to it in front of the trijicon guys that made them squeal like little girls but the sight held and ran well
i too would avoid the dual model rmr..
looks like im going to treat my 9l to this as well
How well could an RMR be integrated into a 1911 slide? How much material can be milled out to make room for the sight?
The very same question I have Frommycolddeadhand. I've got a para nite tac,single action, single stack I would more than willing use as a test mule for this. Anyone out there tried this on a 1911?
David Bowie,
Your picture link has two sets of http:/ in front of the address so the picture link is broken. I found your picture and copied your link so I could repost your photo for you.
This is David Bowies picture of his M&P 45 with an RMR and the engraved line on the back for his co-witness to the front.
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2272/rmrcowitnesslores2.jpg
This is not new, the Docter sight for carry handguns have been aroung since 1991, and IPSC shooters have been using the bigger red dot sights for decades...
I have tried them, and I much prefer the normal iron sights.
I shoot more accurately with irons, specially up to 15-20 m, and just as fast.
And of course the irons don't depend on batteries, are not bulky, don't break, don't get clogged or covered with dust or rain, and keep zero even if dropped or hit accidentally :)
This is not new, the Docter sight for carry handguns have been aroung since 1991, and IPSC shooters have been using the bigger red dot sights for decades...
I have tried them, and I much prefer the normal iron sights.
I shoot more accurately with irons, specially up to 15-20 m, and just as fast.
And of course the irons don't depend on batteries, are not bulky, don't break, don't get clogged or covered with dust or rain, and keep zero even if dropped or hit accidentally :)
People said the same about red dots on carbines. It just takes time for the technology to evolve to the point that it's small and robust enough to move out of IPSC and into the real world. It happened about 10 years ago on rifles, now it looks like it's finally happening on pistols.
Well, as I said, I have tried them and I much prefer the iron sights
Not gospel, just my personal experience :)
You are welcome to try them.
This is not new, the Docter sight for carry handguns have been aroung since 1991, and IPSC shooters have been using the bigger red dot sights for decades...
I have tried them, and I much prefer the normal iron sights.
I shoot more accurately with irons, specially up to 15-20 m, and just as fast.
And of course the irons don't depend on batteries, are not bulky, don't break, don't get clogged or covered with dust or rain, and keep zero even if dropped or hit accidentally :)
You are right. It has been around. The difference is that we are seeing more ruggedized optics come out (due to a .Mil contract). This what is kind of drving the new interest.
For me, prior to the Trijicon and Insight offerings, I had no interest in putting a mini-RDS on my pistol (as I knew it wouldn't last).
I have the exact opposite opinion on them. I find that I am faster and more accurate with mine.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-10, 09:59
Why don't people like the dual illuminated version? I don't see on the website what the battery life is like on the LED version? The LED always on, correct?
Why don't people like the dual illuminated version? I don't see on the website what the battery life is like on the LED version? The LED always on, correct?
I personally love it. It has a down side though. In certain situations, the dot can washout. Typically, this situation would be one of the following:
1. In a small room with a bright light (which over powers the dot).
2. In a dark room looking outside to a target with full sun on it.
Down sides to electronic sights:
1. MUCH greater chance of failing.
2. Must change the battery/carry spares.
As with anything there is no free lunch.
The other great thing about the dual illuminated RMR is the cost. It is $151 dollars CHEAPER than the LED version!
C4
Brother Rat
03-10-10, 15:44
I'd be interested in hearing about some round counts and/or hours spent practicing with a RDS on a handgun before denigrating the idea, vice saying "I tried it, didn't work for me." What that says to me, is that you put a few rounds through a friend's gun, didn't see an instant and marked improvement overall in your shooting, and dropped the idea. TiroFijo, this isn't necessarily aimed at you; I hear it out of a lot of people who have an opinion on this concept. A RDS on a handgun isn't a magical solution that cures all shooting problems, it's a tool. A tool that, IMO, comes with a learning curve. As I run this setup more and more, I become more comfortable with it. As I dry fire, I become more familiar with what the dot does as I break the shot. As I train, I get better, and this new tool becomes more useful. Just like Grant, I find that I am both faster and more accurate at all ranges, and first round hits on steel at 100m+ are routine and far easier for me than with irons.
While I'm thinking about it, I would also hazard an informed guess that people with lots of time looking through a RDS on a carbine will find the transition more natural than those without that experience.
Update on the replacement Insight MRDS: current round count is 850 over the past 3 or 5 range days I've managed to make since installing the new one. It's been buried in the mud while wearing it on my hip going urban prone while shooting carbine, and the lens has deflected a few wayward pieces of brass with no significant damage. I've also romped on it a bit doing malfunction clearances with no change in zero, or damage to the sight or mount. So far optic #2 is going strong...
"A RDS on a handgun isn't a magical solution that cures all shooting problems, it's a tool. A tool that, IMO, comes with a learning curve."
Well said! A few thousand dry fire presentations and a few thousand rounds of live fire, including an intensive multi-day training class should be mandatory before making any decisions on slide mounted mini-RDS suitability for duty/CCW use.
I am glad your new ITI is working out. So far, the ITI mini-RDS is the most user friendly of the mini red dot sights (top loading battery, on-off switch, multiple light intensity settings, small size), but the lack of inherent BU sight capability like on the J-Point or Bowie modified RWS is a concern, as are rumors of durability issues (although we have had no problems with them in our limited testing). After our experiments, I believe I would only use one of the mini-red dot sights for serious use if it is milled into the slide and if it offers adequate BU sight capability.
Below is one of the systems we have been using as a test bed:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/90444-MCOperminiRDS.jpg
Brother Rat
03-10-10, 17:27
Doc:
Would I be too presumptuous in assuming you guys tried the optic as a ghost ring? If you did, what were your thoughts on that technique? At what range did it stop producing good hits for you?
Also, you mentioned the durability rumors. Who else is trying to wreck this thing besides you and me? Not doubting you, as this thread should provide ample evidence that they can break, I'd just like to read other people's thoughts on this optic in the interest of learning more about it, how it failed, what caused it, etc.
I have not done any true duribility/torture testing but I have run about 8,000 rounds through my M&P with the Trijicon MRD and have had zero problems. I use mine for CCW, HD, and 3-gun matches. I have had one battery in the Trijicon for a little over 13 months left on 24/7 "without" using the cover and it never went dead. I changed out the battery last week just to make sure it wouldn't go dead but then exchanged my 4moa Trijicon for a new 8moa model. My tired 55 year old eyes pick up the 8moa dot much faster then the 4moa. I have one of the Insight Technology MRD's on my FN Five-seveN and love everything about it except the lack of rear sight notch that the Trijicon has and the fact that David Bowie does not yet mill M&P slides for them.
JMHO,
MadDog
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5223/mp9mm002.jpg
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8573/insightfn57002.jpg
MADOG---i also have some 50+ year old tired old eyes ( you youg guys..wait and see, after 27 years LE experience it happens to ALL of us) and am looking for something to mount on my MP .40 cal. i have been reading these posts and am slightly confused. everyone seems to like the co-witness site better and i certainly see why. does the MRD have that? and i know theres no free lunch but GIMME A RECCOMENDATION DAMMIT. gun is solely used for night stand use, sport shooting, and rattlesnakes. and has the integrated laser site and apex sear. thanks for the help.
ALSO- in the top pic of ur MP whats the knurled bushing at the end of the bbl. for?
nwcatman--the pistol you are asking about has an extended, threaded barrel for attaching a suppressor; the knurled ring is a thread protector used when the suppressor is not attached.
Right now, the simplest and cheapest mini RDS option is the J-Point, which comes with an integral rear sight notch to allow BIS use when the J-Point is milled into the slide, as the picture below of David Bowie's pistol illustrates:
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4145&d=1265226869
Very good points and discussion... The "testing" part on my side is enough to have a good opinion.
IF I liked a MRDS (which I don't), I would not carry one without a back up iron sight.
May I ask how much faster and accurate are you guys with a MRDS?
At what range do you feel the major improvement is?
Do you have eye problems, or normal eyesight?
In my experience, close range shots (up to 6-7 m) are faster and easier with irons (flash picture). I find the RDS moving with the slide annoying. Then up to 15-20 m I still prefer the iron sights, just as fast and a bit more accurate for precise shots. From 20 up to 75 m the RDS are comfortable and they are not annoying anymore because there is more time between shots. But I can shoot just as well with irons, perhaps a little bit slower. For 75+ m shots the RDS is superior to the irons, comfortable and you can compensate drop faster and easier on the target compared to the irons. I shoot on a local IHMSA range with lots of handguns up to 200 m, so I have a pretty good idea on what normal service or even compact handguns can do at long range. I buy the first shots hits at 100+ m, but 200 m may be streching it a bit... ;)
So, for me, when weighed against the cons RDS don't offer any advantage on a handgun, where most shots are at 25 m or less. It is different on a carbine, because the RDS does not move with the slide, 20-200 m range is where the carbine shines, the bulk of the RDS is lost in a gun of this size, there are no modifications to make on the carbine to mount the RDS, and there are good BUIS.
Even if you are a little faster, do you really believe that being 0.1 seconds faster (in my personal experience and friends is less) per shot is enough advantage to overcome the cons:
- depend on batteries
- bulky, costly, and you have to machine the slide + mount a taller front sight
- durability issues
- clog, mud, dust, rain, scratches, light reflections on the window
- potential loss of zero if dropped or hit accidentally
Something for you to ponder and experiment...
Good points but
i can say this my RMR has been dropped on the cement from holster height about 10 times now with shot taken between each drop giving me repeat hits with no loss of zero
and overall its fun :D
I haven't timed myself with a PAC timer but I can honestly say I am considerably faster getting off accurate shots at "any" distance with the Trijicon MRD I have mounted on my M&P. Do you think "all" of the top competition shooters use some sort of red dot whether it be a Docter, Trijicon, C-More, etc because they can get off accurate shots "much" faster at "any" distance or because it is the cool thing to do? I know competition has nothing to do with reality or the real world defense but for them it is all about speed and accuracy and the red dot sight is king.
MadDog :rolleyes:
The IPSC open and most other "action" pistols have a RDS mounted on the frame, not the slide, and have muzzle brakes/compensators This way the RDS+pistol moves less and is far less annoying to the shooter .
The IPSC modified division pistols are also compensated, sometimes have a slide mounted MRDS but only because they have to fit in "the box", and the best shooters usually mount the MRDS on the frame for the reasons states above.
And of course the bulk, long term durability/reliability issues, cost, batteries, lack of BUIS, etc. are a moot point on GAME pistols ... not the same thing we are talking here, tactical weapons ;)
You can roll your eyes as much as you want, as I said, I'm stating MY opinion and experiences, not spreading the gospel and trying everyone to blindly agree with me. Not everyone likes the same stuff. Hopefully we are allowed to disagree.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-11-10, 16:24
Seems like C-mores are the popular sight for Open guns, though I had a hard time aquiring the dot when I shot a buddies open gun. It seemed you had to have near perfect head alignment to shoot it.
Are ports that much of a bozo no-no on a defensive gun? Are the C-mores mounted on frame extensions because of an advantage, or because they ca't handle being cycled?
These days I see just as many slide mounted optics as I do frame mounted in competition (at least in my neck of the woods). That is probably because Docter, Trijicon, and IMI are making optics that can easilly stand up to the pounding the slide produces. I don't know of anyone that can keep their weapon dead steady and on target under recoil. For that split second under recoil, you are going to loose sight of your dot or open sights. Makes no difference. The closer to the bore your optic is mounted the faster you will be able to acquire your dot again.
MadDog
Gabe Suarez
03-11-10, 18:33
OK guys...I know that this has been a hot topic. Some guys just don't trust anything if it doesn't have a backup sight platform. Well...for guys like that...that want a red dot AND iron sights...maybe this concept is just not for you.
Here is what I worked up.
First off...I know people will disagree totally with me and that is fine, but I am sold on the validity of the RDS on a pistol. And of all the sights I have played with, IMHO, the Trijicon unit is the best. And I sell all of them so I have no interest in one over another. I looked at all of them and the one best suited for pistol use is the RMR. Again, that is my opinion and what I have on my pistol. Now to continue.
Lately we have seen attempts to create an alternative sighting platform in conjunction with existing red dot sights. We have seen the deselection of the Trijicon RMR in some camps because it does not have a built in back up sight while others have been pushing the (now discontinued J-Point 8 MOA) because it has a notch that can be purposed as a BUIS (Back up iron sight).
Well here is what I found out today. I have a JPoint, and two RMR units set up on pistols. I obtained a couple of other pistols set up similarly for JPoint/Trijicon JPoint Copies.
One sight was a Jpoint/Trijicon copy, the others were RMRs. One RMR had a dot on the back, centered to coincide with a front sight that also had a dot. We moved the sights from gun to gun to see if we could mainatin cowitnessing.
Before I go into what I saw, I will explain it. A red dot sight can be zeroed irrespective of any other point on the pistol. Meaning - it does not need to be "aligned" with a front or rear sight, and even if the dot needs to be moved to a farther than centered zero position, to the shooter, not having any additional point to compare it to, will simply look at the target and put the dot on it, and of course...shoot.
The moment you bring in additional points of reference, such as a rear index point (or sight) and a front index point (or sight), bringing all of them into coincidence becomes difficult, unles at least one other of those points is adjustable.
For example...if for instance, you were working with a setup such as the FN45, that has a front sight as well as a rear sight, and has a red dot sight mounted forward of the rear sight (or anywhere on the slide really), the red dot can be zeroed with no issues. Then the sights can be also zeroed to be in coincidence with the dot.
When zeroing a pistol rear sight, one either adjusts it or drifts it in the dovetail. If that rear sight cannot be drifted in the dovetail, the weapon will not be zeroed.
Do you all follow me so far. If not, picture trying to zero a pistol whose sights were immobile and forged with the slide. Could you do it? Nope...the sights would be where they were and only by happenstance would the sights be set for where the shots landed.
See so far?
Now I recall this from a previous discussion. A member of our group contacted Trijicon and they were told the JPoint licensed copy had been discontinued. They then called JP, and were told this by a JP technician -
"You can use the rear notch in a pinch, but it is not designed to cowitness with a given front sight. The JPoint is designed to be used as a dot only. Sometimes the rear notch lines up pretty accurately, but it's pure chance when it does."
OK...got that "pure chance".
I tried it with the JPoint, and on one pistol, it had that "pure chance" situation. Nice. But on the other two, no freaking way. The dot had to be moved either far right or far left of its original point. Now since the eye is expecting that co-witness situation, it gets confused from the lack of symmetry of notches and posts and dots. At least MY eyes do and those of my staff. Not good.
I also tried to add a straight line to the RMR, as well as a white dot just below the spot where the front sight usually pops up in the lower quarter of the window.
Now this is important. If you center up that dot/line, what you get is a nice looking sight picture, but since it cannot be adjusted (you can't drift the entire red dot sight to the right or the left....it is screwed in solid to the slide), your POA-POI will coincide only by chance. So what will happen, and what happened to us was that if you lined up the sights and the dot picture perfect, your shots would be off to the right or the left. Then when you adjust the red dot to get that nice one hole group, you will notice the cowitnessing is off.
So here is the deal. Pre-establishing a sight set up on the red dot unit....no matter who freaking makes it, before the fact, is a losing proposition. It will not work most of the time and if it does, it will be by chance. On all the pistols we used, only one was able to claim same POA/POI for BUIS and Dot.
The ONLY way to make this work is as follows.
Install the dot sight
Zero it with your carry ammo
Then, noting where the dot is, make the mark necessary on the red dot unit so you can have a rough, but good enough co-witness. But that has to be done by the end user and not the factory.
Oh, and the idea of adding suppressor sights to a Glock slide? Like the FN. Sorry...not enough real estate there w/o encroaching on the extractor.
As I said....I am not worried about the lack of BUIS. What I am running now is shown here. Its good enough for head shots at room distances with out the dot and for chest shots out to 15 yards. I have enough confidence in this set up that it has become my EDC.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/RMRGLOCKSIGHTPIC2.jpg
you guys ain't making this decision any easier! so when the balloon goes up and theres no more batteries to be had wouldn't a dot of finger nail polish on the RDS work? it could even be "moved" to be sighted in.
Bowie Tactical
03-12-10, 09:50
Trijicon should be aware of it (diode shooting lose)they just had to replace one for me that had that happen. The dot was suddenly no where near my iron sights. That is the other reason BUIS are so needed they give the "chance" to catch your dot has failed. I have seen dots fail from every manufacturer in the industry. Even the big names rifle ones i have seen fail from time to time. Nothing is full proof or the be all end all. That is why a secondary system is a good idea with anything like this. Not to mention you loose a round in public with a broken sight that you knew had failed and did not have a back up system just because you did not think you needed it, and you shoot a bystander....just add zeros to your law suite check. Why not have it when you can. You may never need it, i agree these sights are very good but they are not full proof. I have used these things and been around them way to long. All electronic sights fail from time to time. Yours may never fail but your buddies might.
David Bowie
Gabe Suarez
03-12-10, 10:53
So David, you broke an RMR but have never seen a broken J Point? Which trijicon broke? An RMR or something else? I will have a Trijicon Exec at the facility this month and I will be sure to grill him on all the broken units he's been getting back. If anyone has a broken RMR unit (not an old trijicon...or a red dot sight or whatever....but an actual RMR) please post a picture guys....let's all see it.
And are you guys aware of the comment by one of the techs at JP Rifles to one of my students INRE the J-Point sights?
"You can use the rear notch in a pinch, but it is not designed to cowitness with a given front sight. The JPoint is designed to be used as a dot only. Sometimes the rear notch lines up pretty accurately, but it's pure chance when it does."
On the back ups, sure...a nice idea and that is why I think the ghost ring system with the tall front sight will be the best answer thusfar. We just had an entire SWT unit in NorCal go with this set up in fact.
I do have a question though? How many guys have seen iron sights fly off guns in training, or seen irons get misaligned, or even get knocked off the gun. I have.
So what now? Add a second set of iron sights in case the first set goes down?
At some point are we just looking for excuses because we do not like change?
Gabe, I have seen adjustable sights get disabled or even broken.
I have also seen a few fixed (but with defective installation) sights fly, or drift.
But quality, fixed sights, well made and installed, I have never seen a failure. Not saying that is not possible, just that I have not seen it. I have seen a few of them that needed a press or a heavy whack to drift even a little bit.
The iron sights are simple and strong, have very little mass (don't take a pounding when cycling), low profile (less likely to hit something accidentally), and if properly installed are very firmly secured to the slide. The probability of them failing is very small.
Compare this to an electronic device, with batteries, lens, and internal adjustment screws that takes a pounding with every shot, and has a much higher profile so it has a high probability of hitting something while manouvering or if you drop the gun. It is quite different...
Bowie Tactical
03-12-10, 12:45
Just because the rear notch in the jpoint was not designed as a sight does not mean it does not work well as one. Milling is the key to the proper cowitness and partnering it to the front sight. If you go by what an item was meant to be we would not be running RMR's on handguns. They were not meant for that yet we are. I dont understand why we want to fight a usable item or set up that makes sense. I did not come onto this just a month ago i have been running and evaluating this subject for about 6 years now. IT WORKS.
David Bowie
Gabe Suarez
03-12-10, 16:18
Just got back from the range. I blasted 200 rounds through the RMR Glock. First I took the RMR off and took the battery out. I used the Ghost Ring ONLY set up as pictured here.
At 5, 7, 10, 15, and 20 yards....20 yards was as far as I shot, and at 20 yards got a hand's breadth wide grouping. At 5 yards I was keeping an eyeball sized group slightly low. At 7 yards I was a little bigger but more centered, and at 10 and 15 about a fist and a hand size respectively right on the target.
No big deal using the ghost ring set up IF ALL THE PLANETS ALIGN AND THE DOGS AND CATS MOVE IN TOGETHER AND YOUR RED DOT TURNS OFF.
When I added the battery and the RMR back, it was a return to zero with no issues and a one hole group out as far as I was shooting....as expected. I suppose some will want me to shoot the RMR with my AK or even drive over it with my Jeep, but I think I'll pass on that with my stuff. :rolleyes:
Gabe Suarez
03-12-10, 16:20
Compare this to an electronic device, with batteries, lens, and internal adjustment screws that takes a pounding with every shot, and has a much higher profile so it has a high probability of hitting something while manouvering or if you drop the gun. It is quite different...
Well...this may simply not be a good idea for some people.
As noted earlier in the thread, over the past several months we have been experimenting with small slide mounted RDS and find they can be quite useful. Some of the more common electronic sights used in this role include the J-Point, Dr. Optic, ITI Mini-RDS, Trijicon RMR, and the Aimpoint H1/T1. While a small 2-4 MOA dot works nicely for pure target shooting, a larger dot of 8 MOA or so seems to be better for most defensive purposes with duty/CCW handguns. There are several options to mount a small RDS on duty/CCW handguns; the easiest method is to drift out the standard rear sight and simply add a dove-tail adapter allowing the RDS to bolt on to the side. The lowest profile method and the one that fosters the most natural shooting position is to permanently mil the slide to allow the RDS to sit lower and allow a more natural shooting position. Tall iron sights, as used with suppressors, allows a rough co-witness with the RDS.
The consensus around here seems to be that the Trijicon 8 MOA LED RMR milled into the slide in conjunction with tall iron sights is the best current option for mounting an RDS on a duty/CCW pistol. I have 9 mm Glocks and M&P45's currently set-up like this and will likely be doing the same to some 1911's here very shortly.
The Alessi DOJ-open port and Comp Tac Belt Holster work perfectly with small slide mounted RDS, while the Raven RCS and CCC Looper required minor modification to the front edge of the shirt guard; Safariland 6377 and 6004 required more substantial holster modification to work...
NinjaMedic
06-06-10, 20:09
Thanks for the report Doc!
Well, my decision just got a whole lot easier....I think!
I just got ahold of a brand-new 4 MOA LED Triji RMR for FREE:D (Yes, a new, real-deal RMR)
Looks like you guys are running the 8 MOA dot version. Are there any concerns you guys have about running the 4 MOA dot on a pistol?
For pure accuracy and shots past 25 yds, I actually prefer the smaller dot; for fast close shooting, then the larger dot is faster to acquire--both will work. One of the nice things about the ITI mini-RDS was the ability to increase the dot intensity; we could use the 4 MOA dot for more precision, then turn up the dot intensity and have it "bloom" to appear more like a larger dot for high speed, multiple close target shooting.
I ran a 4moa for a while but found the dot too small for very fast acquisition for anything 25 yards and under. I switched to a 7moa dot and think that combo is perfect. I now have 7moa & 8moa MRD's on three pistols.
MadDog
1911sforever
06-07-10, 21:36
I received my RMR equipped M&P .45 slide from Mr. Bowie about two weeks ago. I finally had a chance to wring it out a bit yesterday. I definitely see the potential, and the requirement to train with the equipment.
This evening I went to do some dry fire work, presented the pistol to eye level and....no dot. I ran the slide a few times and the dot appeared.
It was not a confidence building moment, and I'm beginning to see the wisdom of Grant's approach.
John
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-08-10, 00:27
I've got a RMR 9moa dual illuminated on the way to me now. I'm going to try it out on a Tac-sol 22lr slide I have for my STI 2011 before I butcher a slide for a low mount.
Dan Goodwin
06-08-10, 07:08
Dot size issues: I see that some are concerned a smaller dot will cause engagement problems at close range but are preferred for longer range.
I have a T-1 on my issued Commando and have no problem acquiring the 4 MOA dot; and it's about the same distance from my eye as it would be mounted on the rear of a pistol slide. I know I have more points of contact with the carbine so that may aid in faster acquisition...but still.
I like Doc's "bloom" idea for close up. And I love the idea of being able to hit out past 100 yards very fast with a pistol. Can't do very well these days due to presbyopia...
Guess I need to stop farting around and order a Glock Aimpoint plate from Midway or Brownell's this week and see how this setup works on an otherwise stock Glock. Prolly a Gen 2 19 that still has the plastic slot fillers on it.
If it's the beans, may have to get a Lone Wolf slide and RMR.
This could really be salvation for we old guys.
Below are some Glocks with 8 MOA RMR’s and Ameriglo suppressor sights done by Mark Housel of L&M Precision Gunworks in Prescott, AZ:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7020&filename=Glock%20RMR.jpg
Today, the RMR on the G19 stopped working, however, it was no big deal, as the iron sights worked flawlessly and allowed an immediate transition with no wasted time or missed shots.
Mark Housel can also do RMR’s on M&P’s—just need Ameriglo to finish the initial batch of tall iron sights for the M&P’s:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7021&filename=M&P45%20RMR.jpg
Bowie Tactical Concepts is another good source for getting RMR’s milled onto Glock and M&P slides.
We've also been trying the Dale Fricke (http://dalefrickeholsters.com) Seraphim IWB holster, as it is specifically designed for use with pistols having an RMR mounted--so far it is working very well when used for IWB at 3-4 o'clock, as well as AIWB at 12 to 1 o'clock or so.
Any pricing info for the machine work or a link to One Shot Tactical? Are they out of Canada?
Gabe Suarez
06-20-10, 10:29
I think Doc mean One Source Tactical ;)
We finished up his M&P and sent it out. We are waiting on the suppressor sights for the M&P which should make it as easy to transition from dot to sights as with a cowitnessed rifle.
You can see other pistols at www.onesourcetactical.com. Until we have the M&P suppressor sights available we won't be taking any orders, but the prices should be close to the Glocks.
We are also working on the XD and 1911 pistols for similar treatment.
Doc, what exactly happened with the red dot? Battery failure? If so, I am thinking that not all batteries ae created equal and have the staff experimenting with available options. When we have more data we will post it. In any case, as you found, having the suppressor sights on board makes it easy to transition to the BUIS.
Thanks
Bowie Tactical Concepts in West Union, Ohio also mills Glock and M&P slides for RDS: http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/pictures.html
------------------------
Unknown why the RMR failed; it may be a battery issue, but I'll let you know after we replace it today.
1911sforever
06-21-10, 07:23
Very interested to hear about the failure of the sight, having experienced one myself. (Gun/sight ran great on a Saturday. Pulled it out of the case the next Tuesday, no red dot. Worked the slide a few times and the dot came on.)
I had my second 200 round session with the combination yesterday. Still working toward gaining the comfort level to make this an EDC set up.
Spoke with Trijicon today--it was a defective RMR that was rapidly draining the battery; it is being repaired/replaced.
Very interested to hear about the failure of the sight, having experienced one myself. (Gun/sight ran great on a Saturday. Pulled it out of the case the next Tuesday, no red dot. Worked the slide a few times and the dot came on.)
I had my second 200 round session with the combination yesterday. Still working toward gaining the comfort level to make this an EDC set up.
Would it be possible to expand on what aspects of the setup have you not gained EDC carry level comfort in yet? Is it rapid dot acquisition from the draw? Is it other gun manipulations? Sight reliability?
1911sforever
06-22-10, 10:56
Would it be possible to expand on what aspects of the setup have you not gained EDC carry level comfort in yet? Is it rapid dot acquisition from the draw? Is it other gun manipulations? Sight reliability?
Yes. :D
Still working on picking up the dot on the presentation, though that is coming along. A few more dry fire sessions should see that fixed.
Distance work is dramatically improved. The gun shoots one ragged hole out to 15 yards or so when I do my part...which is rare enough. It is too easy to put that red dot riiiiight where you want it, and then snatch the trigger. Essentially the problem new shooters face with iron sights. I've trained past that self imposed hurdle, though.
Manipulations are actually enhanced. Rather than grasping the slide I'm pushing the sight against the knife edge of my hand...works great so far for regular manipulation but I haven't worked malfs with it yet.
THE BIG FEAR is, of course, bringing that gun up to eye level at the Moment of Truth and not seeing that red dot. Mr. Bowie was kind enough to mill a reference line onto the back of the sight, but I need to train transitioning to that system.
So far, so good. Another 1000 rounds or so, and then I'll have my Shaggy modified to accomodate the sight.
1911sforever,
Have you tried the optic with dity lenses? Dust, mud, blood, water, finger marks with oil, condensation due to temp changes, etc.
1911sforever
06-23-10, 12:08
1911sforever,
Have you tried the optic with dity lenses? Dust, mud, blood, water, finger marks with oil, condensation due to temp changes, etc.
Haven't tested for any of those contingencies yet. I'll be doing the electromagnetic pulse resistance test this weekend though! Be sure to cover your eyes and turn off your computers at 1400 EST Sunday! :cool:
Of your concerns I think the most relevant is condensation. I'll see if I can get the beast to fog up in the VA humidity by taking it from the airconditioned truck to the firing line. (Maybe an anti-fog lens treatment is in order?)
Generally if there is dirt, mud, dust, blood obscuring the front of the lens, the RMR acts like an old Armson OEG... Rain/water has not caused any issues to date. Have not had an opportunity to try with condensation/fogging.
What is an Armson OEG?
In my experience, when the lens in a MRDS gets dirty (oily finger marks, etc.) or with water drops/fog it gets from mildly to very annoying, but still usable. Dust is not very distracting.
When it gets very dirty (mud, etc.) it get to a point where it is no longer usable, you cannot use the iron sights, and the target gets obstructed too. The chances to get real dirty are there is you drop the gun on wet dirt+debris or mud, because the lens is relatively large and exposed.
The iron sights of course can get clogged to if you drop the gun on mud, but are easier to clean to at least a usable state, and you can still use the silhouette of the pistol to "aim" pretty effectively at short ranges (<10 m or so), since the target is not obstructed.
dirksterg30
06-23-10, 14:22
What is an Armson OEG?
http://www.armsonusa.com/armsonoeg.html
From what I understand, the OEG isn't an optic you look through like an Aimpoint. It has a bright dot in the center and a black background, so you can't actually look through it. You superimpose the dot over your desired aiming point on the target, but you must have both eyes open to use it. Your dominant eye sees the dot and black background, and your other eye sees the target, Your brain merges the two images so you see the dot and the target.
For pictures, check out post #15 here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=112019
RAM Engineer
06-23-10, 14:45
What is an Armson OEG?
It's like an Aimpoint with the objective lens cover closed.
Bowie Tactical
06-25-10, 14:46
I just got an MRDS from insight to test about two weeks ago. I am set up to mill glocks and M&P's for them now. Still working on a front sight height for cowitness though. I have seen some failures out of this system so i have so far tortured mine pretty tough. I have thrown it mounted to my M&P slide over sixty feet onto a gravel range, still worked fine, dropped it from over my head onto gravel range, still works, pounded it against wood posts as in racking the slide one handed, hard many times, still working and no change in zero. So far so good. So far other than a bunch of slight dents in the plastic and gravel markings it is doing great.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical
We've been toying with a thin L-shaped plate with one side under the RDS, using the RDS attachment screws to hold it in place, and the perpendicular part of the L-shaped plate coming up behind the RDS with a notch milled into it to serve as a rear sight in conjunction with a tall front sight. This seems to work well for 1911's and other pistols that don't have room for standard rear sight notch behind the RDS.
While we have now had a Trijicon RMR fail (defective unit), the ITI mini-RDS's we are trying have not had any issues to date...
Brother Rat
03-01-11, 04:29
Necropost/One Year Update:
I am currently on my third Insight MRDS, and it is NOT being used for concealed carry at this time as it has proven unreliable. Optic number two arrived before I left town for a while last spring, so it wasn't ran hard or often this year. According to my gun book 1,598 rounds total prior to failure. Is anyone else crushing these things left and right? Or am I a statistical anomaly?
I'm considering picking up a dual-illum RMR as a replacement, as I'm still a believer in the concept. Hoping the lack of electronics will increase the longevity of the optic.
FWIW, Insight has been awesome about getting replacements out to me, but I'm starting to wonder how many times they or I will be willing to have the same phone conversation...
I purchased the Leupold DeltaPoint.
Got it on a Wednesday, installed it and headed to the range.
As I was shooting it, it was turning off and turning on under recoil.
The next day I removed it and shipped it back for repairs.
It's been fine every sense but it really did leave a bad taste in my mouth getting a brand new LEUPOLD product and it failing right out of the box.
I'll be getting Trijicon from now on.
dougwg--We have had exactly the same thing happen with a Trijicon RMR--it is the nature of small electronic devices. I would much rather have an electronic device fail rather immediately and get it repaired/replaced, then have it randomly fail after several months of use...
Absolutely, but remember, I'm human.
I've never had, nor seen myself, an issue with the RMR.
But I have with the DeltaPoint.
:)
Going to 'Lazarus' this thread. Who has an M&P that has a milled slide with an Insight MRDS on it. Maybe Doug could chime in.
I just received one of these RDS's yesterday. It's a 3.5 MOA but now it's got me curious about their 7 MOA version & using that on the M&P. I haven't heard anything negative as far as durability goes with the Insight but there is no where near enough of these out their on a handgun compared to RMRs so finding any user feedback has been null and void practically.
I am sure someone will ask , "Why not just go with the RMR?" and that's understandable. I am not trying to justify my purchase. Just would like to know who has used one of these long term on a handgun. Especially if you've had it milled to the slide.
Thanks,
-Jax
... The problem with JPOINT's is that that they are just not reliable. If you are going to mount a RDS on a pistol, it really needs to be one of the new "ruggedized" models that are being built for a .Mil contract. This means that the Insight MRDS and Trijicon RMR are your best choices. C4
I just had an RMR malfunction yesterday after about 750 round through a 40 cal CORE.
I am almost certain it was the battery contacts, but the sight was on tight. I would fire one round using the red dot, the next round the red dot was "gone, " fire it using the iron sights and the red dot would come back on. repeat...
I shimmed the bottom of the battery with a piece of electrical tape yesterday. Hopefully this will hold it more securely in place. I will test it Monday.
My Eotech/Insight MRDS should be here at the end of the month.
Sorry to hi-jack the thread.
Yes, as most people NATURALLY point shoot when under stress (like in a gun fight). ;)...C4
The Officers used their sights in the most successful defensive shootings (gunfights) I have investigated. Of course this depends on distance. Inside 3 yards most don't fully extend their arm/firearm. I wish I could tell you that at 3 yards or less they properly used a retention/speed rock... whatever you want to call the position, but most didn't.
I just had an RMR malfunction yesterday after about 750 round through a 40 cal CORE.
I am almost certain it was the battery contacts, but the sight was on tight. I would fire one round using the red dot, the next round the red dot was "gone, " fire it using the iron sights and the red dot would come back on. repeat...
I shimmed the bottom of the battery with a piece of electrical tape yesterday. Hopefully this will hold it more securely in place. I will test it Monday.
My Eotech/Insight MRDS should be here at the end of the month.
Sorry to hi-jack the thread.
I know Doug/ATEI doesn't favor the CORE but am interested in your feedback when you get it setup. And that's the thing I like about the CORE. It may not be the best at fixing ONE type of optic firmly (all heresay, haven't used one) but it gives the option of trying multilple MRDSs without being locked into one as you would with a proprietary milled mount for one type of optic
-Jax
Brother Rat
04-14-13, 07:16
Wow, I never thought I'd see this thread again! Three years later finds me unconvinced that mini red dots in general (exception: T1) are durable enough for duty use on a handgun. I'm on MRDS #5 and have since stopped mounting them to any of my pistols. Maybe I just have super bad luck, but the longest-lived of the MRDSs lasted ~1600 rounds of 9mm on my M&P. Now, it was mounted to the handgun via dovetail mount instead of being milled in; I'm not sure if that matters for durability purposes or not. Others can chime in on that aspect since I'm pretty much done with this experiment for now. Hopefully you have better luck than I did, but if you don't, rest assured that Insight will take care of you. Each of my 4 replacements was sent free from Insight after returning the broken optic.
Wow, I never thought I'd see this thread again! Three years later finds me unconvinced that mini red dots in general (exception: T1) are durable enough for duty use on a handgun. I'm on MRDS #5 and have since stopped mounting them to any of my pistols. Maybe I just have super bad luck, but the longest-lived of the MRDSs lasted ~1600 rounds of 9mm on my M&P. Now, it was mounted to the handgun via dovetail mount instead of being milled in; I'm not sure if that matters for durability purposes or not. Others can chime in on that aspect since I'm pretty much done with this experiment for now. Hopefully you have better luck than I did, but if you don't, rest assured that Insight will take care of you. Each of my 4 replacements was sent free from Insight after returning the broken optic.
You're not alone. This article says he is on his 4th RMR, but I believe he is up to 5 or 6 now...
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=794
Wow, I never thought I'd see this thread again! Three years later finds me unconvinced that mini red dots in general (exception: T1) are durable enough for duty use on a handgun. I'm on MRDS #5 and have since stopped mounting them to any of my pistols. Maybe I just have super bad luck, but the longest-lived of the MRDSs lasted ~1600 rounds of 9mm on my M&P. Now, it was mounted to the handgun via dovetail mount instead of being milled in; I'm not sure if that matters for durability purposes or not. Others can chime in on that aspect since I'm pretty much done with this experiment for now. Hopefully you have better luck than I did, but if you don't, rest assured that Insight will take care of you. Each of my 4 replacements was sent free from Insight after returning the broken optic.
That's the sort of feedback I was looking for. Albeit not what I was hoping for. Thanks man!
-Jax
We have recently completed a 3 year test of pistol slide mounted RDS. After experimenting with the Docter Optic, ITI mRDS, and Leupold DeltaPoint, in early 2010, six RMR02 8MOA sights were installed on the milled slides of four 9 mm Glocks and two M&P45’s. These six original RMR02 have in excess of 10,000 rounds fired through each one with no RDS failures. One battery was changed after 33 months of continuous use, one battery was changed after 36 months of use, and four batteries are still working at 39 months of use. These pistols have been carried daily, including use in rain, snow, sub-zero temperatures, and 100 degree heat.
In early 2011, twelve adjustable intensity RMR-A’s (RMR06 & RMR07) were were added to the testing on six 9 mm Glocks and six M&P's. An additional six RMR-A's were also mounted on the slides of various other pistol types, but were not part of the trial. Several RMR-A’s had trouble holding windage--typically moving 8-10 clicks clockwise over a few hundred rounds of shooting. Painting witness marks allowed a quick visual indicator to identify if this occurred. Trijicon rapidly fixed these problems. More seriously, when mounted on handgun slides, the adjustable RMR-A’s experienced frequent premature electronic failure. Unlike the original RMR02’s, NONE of the RMR-A’s lasted beyond 5000 rounds and quite a few failed under 2000 rounds. Trijicon immediately repaired each failed optic. Because of these nagging problems, at this time pistols with the slide mounted RMR-A’s have been relegated to training use only, not for duty or defensive carry. Trijicon is clearly aware of the issue, is in the process of identifying failure points, and is instituting engineering changes to increase robustness and durability of the RMR’s.
As a result of the repeated RMR-A electronic failures and the fortuitous availability of the Unity Tactical ATOM mount, several micro-Aimpoints (H1/T1) were added to the evaluation. The biggest problem with the micro-Aimpoint equipped pistols is finding duty retention holsters that will work. One micro-Aimpoint right side brightness dial was broken when it sustained a hard blow during training—the dot did not turn off, but the brightness could no longer be adjusted.
Bottom-Line:
-- For those with vision issues, an RDS equipped handgun can be the answer.
-- Likewise, for certain specific operational requirements and mission sets, a handgun mounted RDS is an excellent tool, particularly using NV and for long range engagements.
-‐ The ability to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to shooting is a key advantage of a pistol with RDS for LE use.
If you don't need an RDS, you don't have to use one; on the other hand, those who do use them, find them quite helpful in many respects.
The preferred RDS for pistol slide use in this test was the original Trijicon 8 MOA RMR02. The micro‐Aimpoints also worked well, but the lack of duty holsters, and their slightly larger bulk limited their appeal. Most shooters wished the RMR-A’s had been more durable and reliable, as this optic had many desired features.
I have had four "classic" 8 Moa RMR-02 units. They have at various times been on a G17, M&P 9FS, M&P 45 and Sig 226. Near 20,000 rounds of use and not yet a zero issue or problem of any kind.
All of our durable and reliable RMR02's had four digit serial numbers; all the ones that we've seen with premature failures were 5 digit serial numbers.
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