View Full Version : MK12 mod 1 SPR vs SDM/SAM-R
I have gotten the long range ar bug, and have narrowed my choices down to building one of these rifles. Max range will be right around 600 yards, and either rifle will be wearing leupold mr/t 2.5-8 glass. Just looking for opinions from those who have experience with either rifle. Pros and cons of each?
One thing in my mind is the fact that the SDM type is about $300 cheaper to build, while offering equal or better performance.
Also with the SDM I would be able to swap to a carry handle and use a shooting sling for irons practice without using Buis's.
I would be totally sold on the SDM except it is more of a designated marksmen rifle which seems to be just above the m16a4, while the Spr is another step above the SDM. Is this the case?
GermanSynergy
02-24-10, 21:53
I shoot a Super SAM. The accuracy is out of this world for me. Here are the specs:
Specs:
20" upper built by MSTN with Lilja's Super SAM (squad augmented marksman) barrel, ION bonded internals, M249 Vortex flash hider. The barrel was KG treated for maximum accuracy. I bought the last 20" Super SAM barrel Wes had in stock. Mine is the "last" S/S. Sad ;)
Nightforce 5.5-22x56mm optic with Zero Stop, mil dot reticle and Milrad turrets on LaRue SPR mount
CMMG lower, G&R Tactical LPK
Geiselle 2 stage DMR trigger, properly tuned
Ergo ambi grip
LaRue / Harris Bipod combo and Magpul rail covers. This beauty has a date with a can of tan Krylon and some foilage.)
With 77 grain ammo it can easily group under 1/2 MOA, with a competent shooter behind the gun.
ReconRanger
02-25-10, 14:57
The SAMR/SDMR are DMRs, the Mk12 is a sniper rifle. Nuff said.
probably more info than you're after but here you go!
http://designatedmarksman.com/The_Rifle.htm
The SAMR/SDMR are DMRs, the Mk12 is a sniper rifle. Nuff said.
Not really sure if it counts as a sniper rifle either.
It's more like a jack of all trades style weapon, which the undesignated Recce rifle being a bit more balanced towards CQB capability.
I love my SPR-ish build, but it's not capable of the same accuracy as a dedicated bolt gun firing dedicated long range/precision calibers.
However, when comparing the SDM to SPR, the SPR style rifle usually wears more powerful glass, and depending on what you're shooting at 600 yards, you want more power. I brought my SPRish rifle to a long range shoot, and while 600 yard hits on steel at 7x magnification were possible, I was definitely hoping for more power.
Military uses either Nightforce 2.5-10x24/32, or Leupold Mk4 3-9x36 scope with M2 or M3 turrets.
probably more info than you're after but here you go!
http://designatedmarksman.com/The_Rifle.htm
Thanks for this link. It has several good reads. Which ever type of rifle I go with will end up with a 2.5-8x leupold mr/t scope. I am also planning on running iron sights a good bit to practice shooting irons, so the scope will be in a larue mount. I guess the main question I have right now is, will the SDM be capable of equal accuracy with the SPR. I know the shooter is the main part, but just focusing on the rifles.
given the same ammo:
Equal accuracy …… yes
equal accuracy at distance …… I would lean toward SDM which has the longer barrel.
ReconRanger
02-25-10, 20:36
given the same ammo:
Equal accuracy …… yes
equal accuracy at distance …… I would lean toward SDM which has the longer barrel.
30 fps from going from 20" to 18" wont make any difference in accuracy. Another thing to consider is the AMU chambered barrel was developed completely around Mk262, while I have never heard of a designated marksman with a SAMR or SDMR getting Mk262. Also, the shorter length of the barrel is going to make the barrel stiffer, hence more inherent "accuracy."
Not really sure if it counts as a sniper rifle either.
Well, the Army considers it a sniper rifle, not a DMR. Not sure what the other branches consider it, but Crane originally developed upon the SPR concept as a sniper rifle to complement the SR-25.
So the Colt Commando with an 11.5" barrel has superior accuracy? Will it make hits out to 500yds? Yes it will (according to the Pittsburgh SWATs results in Top Sniper II) but how much energy will it have remaining and will it maintain such consistent accuracy out to, say, 800yds?
The Najaf 'sniper' said his longest shot with his 20" was 792yds and that it was taking 4-7 hits to take the target down for good. I suspect more hits would be needed for the same target and probably more shots needed to get those hits (subsonic rounds, etc)
The Army SDM course uses Armalite SDM-Rs and Mk262
http://designatedmarksman.com/files/SDM%20article.pdf
so I'm sure they'd use it in combat over M855
.
ReconRanger
02-25-10, 23:36
So the Colt Commando with an 11.5" barrel has superior accuracy? Will it make hits out to 500yds? Yes it will (according to the Pittsburgh SWATs results in Top Sniper II) but how much energy will it have remaining and will it maintain such consistent accuracy out to, say, 800yds?
The Najaf 'sniper' said his longest shot with his 20" was 792yds and that it was taking 4-7 hits to take the target down for good. I suspect more hits would be needed for the same target and probably more shots needed to get those hits (subsonic rounds, etc)
The Army SDM course uses Armalite SDM-Rs and Mk262
http://designatedmarksman.com/files/SDM%20article.pdf
so I'm sure they'd use it in combat over M855
.
Nice to see Im not the only one that watches Top Sniper religiously.:cool:
I too went though the Army SDM school and we used a limited amount of 262 while most work was done with M855. While overseas however I have never seen a DM be supplied 262, its all channeled to the guys with mk12s. This is how my company did it and I'm not sure how others would do it. The longest I have engaged targets were about 600 meters where 262 is still supersonic. Obviously even 262 wont fragment at those ranges but I suspect from reports from spotters that the tumbling effect is still effective to put down targets.
Nice to see Im not the only one that watches Top Sniper religiously.:cool:
I too went though the Army SDM school and we used a limited amount of 262 while most work was done with M855. While overseas however I have never seen a DM be supplied 262, its all channeled to the guys with mk12s. This is how my company did it and I'm not sure how others would do it. The longest I have engaged targets were about 600 meters where 262 is still supersonic. Obviously even 262 wont fragment at those ranges but I suspect from reports from spotters that the tumbling effect is still effective to put down targets.
I know its a bit of a thread bump but I wanted to say that I was issued M262 with my SDM in 2005.
Came across this thread while researching a Mk12 build.
The SPR and SAM-R should be no more accurate than the SDM-R given the same manufacturer of barrel. The only differences in regard to sniping is that it doesn't have a sound suppressor and has a 4X Trijicon ACOG instead of a higher powered Leupold or NightForce scope. If you aren't going to make an exact clone (not use an ACOG), then this doesn't matter.
Dustin
you know how they say mission drives the gear.... im just wondering what you expect out of the weapon. make a list of YOUR needs and expectations, and build YOUR rifle to meet them. I think clones are cool, and ive met lots of guys who build them to say "this is the exact rifle the super-awesome dudes carry". thats neat and all, but as far as preformance goes, you are holding yourself back. If i wanted a MK12, I honestly wouldnt build one exactly like a replica. I would build one to accomplish the same mission, with better parts. like a nighforce in place of Mark 4, etc. The whole DM thing confuses me to this day, having watched the SAMR come out, go away, MK12 come out, the entire Marine corps field the ACOG on A4s, DM training become standard, trickle skills down to novice rifleman. i regard any lance with a pump under his belt, a expert riflemans badge and a ACOG equiped A4 a DM. i watch DM schooled marines put ACOGS on their MK12s, and roll that way the entire deployment. but then again we get issued M855 for the mk12s, and then blast cases of MK262 at the range at the end of deployment doing CQC drills. some guys carry half greentip, half Mk262. I like to ask everyone about their system, and logic behind it. I never argue with results. A daythat never will be forget is the day i watched a Cpl drop a insurgent at 600 yds with a A4 shooting greentip. its has served as a lesson that most weapons are better then the shooter, and shot placement is critical. perhaps the most critical aspect of all. i guess im trying to say look at the military for some guidance, just not the final solution. sorry for the rant.
^^^^ I will second that rant to the nth degree^^^^
Earlier I was just about to make a reply in this thread cause it hits on a pet peeve I guess you could say of mine but I knew my words would be controversial to some like they have been in the past.
Bottom line is that at the end of the day a skilled AR builder with deep pockets can far exceed any MK12 clone and def. any SDMR clone in every aspect of a gun.
The SDMR and MK12 are both yesteryear guns in my book in terms of current cutting edge weaponry...In a world that has so much fantastic cutting edge AR kit as we currently do, it's hard to think that guns built with heavy doses of ARMs, yesteryear glass and rail systems, and half the time non adjust cumbersome a1/a2 stocks, can compete with a talented AR builder with deep pockets.
Buy a true recce and be done with it, just my 2cents:)
Beat Trash
12-22-10, 13:22
you know how they say mission drives the gear.... im just wondering what you expect out of the weapon. make a list of YOUR needs and expectations, and build YOUR rifle to meet them. I think clones are cool, and ive met lots of guys who build them to say "this is the exact rifle the super-awesome dudes carry". thats neat and all, but as far as preformance goes, you are holding yourself back. If i wanted a MK12, I honestly wouldnt build one exactly like a replica. I would build one to accomplish the same mission, with better parts. like a nighforce in place of Mark 4, etc. The whole DM thing confuses me to this day, having watched the SAMR come out, go away, MK12 come out, the entire Marine corps field the ACOG on A4s, DM training become standard, trickle skills down to novice rifleman. i regard any lance with a pump under his belt, a expert riflemans badge and a ACOG equiped A4 a DM. i watch DM schooled marines put ACOGS on their MK12s, and roll that way the entire deployment. but then again we get issued M855 for the mk12s, and then blast cases of MK262 at the range at the end of deployment doing CQC drills. some guys carry half greentip, half Mk262. I like to ask everyone about their system, and logic behind it. I never argue with results. A daythat never will be forget is the day i watched a Cpl drop a insurgent at 600 yds with a A4 shooting greentip. its has served as a lesson that most weapons are better then the shooter, and shot placement is critical. perhaps the most critical aspect of all. i guess im trying to say look at the military for some guidance, just not the final solution. sorry for the rant.
I agree with what you are trying to say.
If the intent is to build a clone, then have at it. If it's not just to build an exact clone, then we can look to the Military. See what the intended mission requirements was for each branch of the Military and look at the end result to see how they intended to fulfill the need. As civilians, we can then look at what's currently available and modify accordingly to suit individual needs.
The beauty of being a civilian is that the only real limiting factor is finances.
The 600 yd shot by the Corporal with an A4 only goes to reenforce the importance of skill and marksmanship.
I'd like to buy that kid a beer or two...
The SDMR and MK12 are both yesteryear guns in my book in terms of current cutting edge weaponry...
You honestly believe the MK12 is an outdated yesteryear weapon?
Please list what you think is obviously surpassed as far as parts on that weapon system.
Yes I honestly do....
Running a swan sleeve on a pri tube or even worse a non bridged receiver/rail like the mod 1 have on a gun built for precision is yesteryear when monolithic technology currently exists.
Depending on optics/mount you could really be behind the times packing an old leupy w. some ARMs rings when NF, USO and SB exist in the market place. Depending on your irons, you could be packing ARMs buis. I do not think I need to prove there are much better stocks than an A1 or A2.
Personally, I like several barrels more than a Douglas like a Rock or Krieger. I could keep nit picking and I stand by my original statement from above.
Do you know what the current MK12 looks like? It hasn't used a PRI tube in a long time.
Yes I honestly do....
Running a swan sleeve on a pri tube or even worse a non bridged receiver/rail like the mod 1 have on a gun built for precision is yesteryear when monolithic technology currently exists.
Depending on optics/mount you could really be behind the times packing an old leupy w. some ARMs rings when NF, USO and SB exist in the market place. Depending on your irons, you could be packing ARMs buis. I do not think I need to prove there are much better stocks than an A1 or A2.
Personally, I like several barrels more than a Douglas like a Rock or Krieger. I could keep nit picking and I stand by my original statement from above.
You said you could make one better in every aspect but you only changed the aesthetics, things to your personal preference, and the length of pull. The important things like accuracy and reliabilty are no better regardless of what parts you use (monolithic rail and Mike Rock barrel included).
Dustin
So If Im going to build a precision type tactical AR, is there an reason to go with a 18 inch barrel over a 16 inch? Whats the difference in MV?
If I could put a NF or acog on every gun I own or use, I would. If I had a nickel for every broken ARMS mount ive seen on Mk12s, I'd have enough to buy a Larue mount for one. The DMs that put ACOGs on their 12s said they did so because they were tired of breaking the Mk4 leupolds. Since most snipers used 4x scopes in world war two, and I witnessed that kid tag that bomb layer in the spine, I don't argue with sound logic. I asked a SEAL a couple of years ago why they used NF scopes on their MK11 & M14 EBRs. They said "cause they hold zero and we can't break em'!"
Do you know what the current MK12 looks like? It hasn't used a PRI tube in a long time.
Yes I am aware of the evolution to the mod 1's however in the context of this particular discussion we are talking about cloning military guns for the sake of I guess cloning something:confused: I am not a cloner so perhaps there are other reasons.
Pezboy...if you don't think that a barrel and a overall more rigid platform with a contentious uninterrupted top rail is important to accuracy than that is certainly your opinion but I totally disagree. If your logic holds true we might as well all use MOE handguards and Oly barrels on our precision based ARs.
So If Im going to build a precision type tactical AR, is there an reason to go with a 18 inch barrel over a 16 inch? Whats the difference in MV?
Really great thread I think you should take a look at....lots of specific info on your question.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62258
Really great thread I think you should take a look at....lots of specific info on your question.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62258
Still looking for a comparison on MV between the two with a M262 type round.
But thanks for the link. Good read.
Still looking for a comparison on MV between the two with a M262 type round.
But thanks for the link. Good read.
Depends on the two specific barrels in question, but for my 16" Noveske N4 and my 18" Noveske SPR (CL vs SS) it's 100 fps - give a take a few fps in either direction.
This is with a 77 gr SMK reload that runs 2,700 fps in the SPR barrel. I suspect the difference in two similar barrels of the same material and chamber would be less than 50 fps.
Yes I am aware of the evolution to the mod 1's however in the context of this particular discussion we are talking about cloning military guns for the sake of I guess cloning something:confused: I am not a cloner so perhaps there are other reasons.
Ok, when you posted the below, I was unaware of the context you mention.
The SDMR and MK12 are both yesteryear guns in my book in terms of current cutting edge weaponry...
crowkiller
12-24-10, 21:33
So If Im going to build a precision type tactical AR, is there an reason to go with a 18 inch barrel over a 16 inch? Whats the difference in MV?
These SME give some good insight on barrel lengths.
The original whatever you want to call them- Recces, SPRs, MK 12s (we usually just say "sniper M4") had a 16" barrel, Leupold 2.5-10 and a PRI foregrip. They were first used operationally in '93 in Somalia by our guys that were attached to our Southern brethren.
It went to 18" quite frankly because the big Army got involved. Most of us that have a lot of time on one (myself included) think that 16" is better for a number of reasons;
1. 2" does make a difference especially with a can.
2. weight (it's not pounds at this stage it's ounces) and remember that balance has a factor here too.
3. I've shot both together on the same range at the same time. I don't really care what charts and scientists say, me and mine can hit just as good with 16" as 18".
Slight digression- I think most experienced guys will also agree that 24-26" is too long for the 700 as well. 20-22" is fine for what distances most will use it for.
The MK12 is ok as it comes, but, me and majority of the guys that were around me immediatley shitcanned the fixed stock. Some would go with a Geisselle trigger too, and some would put a tube rail back on. All of these little touches were done in house at the shooters home team.
As has been pointed out 5.56 does fine in moderate wind out pretty far. There are an assload of guys both Army and Navy that have slayed passed 600 repeatedly.
For pickin and choosin I tell guys the rules of 4 for caliber;
400 and closer- 5.56 all day
400-800 - 7.62
800-1200- 300 WM
1200-1600 - 338 Lapua
I said a few years ago that bolt action sniper guns would become obseolete at close and moderate distances. I got laughed at. Well, a good friend of mine who I shot with during 2 courses this year and his shooting partner just won the International Sniper Competition at Benning with Larue OBRs.
There's no reason to not have a mag fed snipe gun anymore for 90% of the shooters out there. The manufacturers have simply done too good a job to not use them. On that note, there is already a 7.62 mag fed that has a 12" barrel and will hold 1 MOA to 300 no problem.;)
Good thread guys!
Respect,
KD
Monty is to the DI AR15 what LAV is to the 1911.
He is an absolute student to the design and perhaps one of, if not the premier SME of any of the current real world end users.
I have talked for many hours with Monty on what the best Barrel Lengths of a DI AR15 variant are and why. We both shared the opinion that a 16.1" Barrel was optimum for the 5.56 cartridge in many respects. And in a shorty platform the 12.5" was perhaps best for a DI gun.
Perhaps Monty can elaborate on these barrel length choices for some prospective. Personally I see no allure in a 14.5" barrel. The DI ones that are currently being fielded by many of our overseas end users are rarely being toted outside LW Operations; and even these are currently being displaced by 7.62 weapons in the major LW theater.
To those that would prefer a 14.5" AR15 over a 16.1" one, Why? Is there something gained in a shorter by 1.5" barrel that I am missing? If a short barrel is what one seeks then the 12.5" seems to be the right choice for so many more reasons.
Monty? What say you?
I chose 16in and 12.5in as I feel these are the best lengths for the cartridge. The 16in for me is the most versatile. Its the minimum legal length with out giving up the ability to change flash hiders and breaks and try new cans ect. I feel that a 16in give me what I need in performance from a 5.56 rifle if I need more that what that offers I'm in an environment that its time to step up to a 7.62. The Recce rifle that later turned into the MK12 program started as a 16in precision rifle and does a great job as a precision weapon in 5.56. If I wanted a carbine as an assaulter or as a general purpose carbine then I'm a fan of the 12.5in barrel its the shortest you can get and still have good terminal performance out of a large variety of ammunition that is on the market. The 12.5 also gives you enough dwell time to be reliable with a wider variety of ammo and in a wider variety of environments it just has a wider operation envelope then the shorter barrels and is a GREAT all around length.
YVK- There are a few little tricks you can do to figure out the gas port size ;) I'm going to reserve any accuracy guarantee for right now on the cut barrels not because of the chrome but because of the taper bore and the fact that you are removing some of it. The Recce will hold its accuracy better during heavier strings of fire being heavier it will absorb the heat better also a heavier rifle is much easier to shoot. The chamber in the Recce is designed for SMK ogive bullet set to magazine length and have minimum jump into the lands and grooves. It will shoot better with those bullets then the hammer forged barrels but for practical accuracy its kinda splitting hairs.
These SME give some good insight on barrel lengths.
Excellent summery crowkiller.
Kyle Defoor's post in the barrel paradigm thread is my favorite reply Ive read on any internet forum. I spent 2 yrs. building and analyzing the MK12 vs the Recce and my ultimate conclusions were summarized in Kyle's reply far better than I could have said it and there is perhaps no more opinion on the topic of real world precision ARs that I would trust more.
BaileyMoto
02-14-11, 13:55
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but just wanted to mention that Nightforce scopes (2.5-10x24) are indeed being used on many current mk12 rifles.
And to that effect, I'd add that quality glass has as much to do with the range envelope as the barrel length.
There are so many good 16" and 18" barrels out there, a spot on builder can make a tack driver - and a good scope is absolutely worth its weight.
The SAM-R, to be honest, is my favorite rifle silhouette in the world, alongside the SR47, but neither is terribly practical (so I just have an airsoft version of each), and have a Centurion Mk12 barreled upper and an ADCO built Recce type rifle.
Neither is an exact copy, but the key components are carried over.
I'm about to put my Mk12 upper on a severe diet, in order to make it handle better offhand, and with a can on it, but on square range I must say that the 18" is a pretty fantastic experience.
The company of grunts I was with showed me what the Mk12 could do, a sound suppressor and decent glass made it the squad's most flexible weapon, I think the most salient point is that combining those things - good barrel, good trigger, good glass, and a can - is what made them so effective. The part #'s don't have to match, that's just a good combination there.
In non-clone form, I think these two general uppers bring the most to the table - with newer handguards, top end glass, and a good can I feel that they ares the marksman's preeminent poodle shooter
Magic_Salad0892
02-15-11, 05:12
So the Colt Commando with an 11.5" barrel has superior accuracy? Will it make hits out to 500yds? Yes it will (according to the Pittsburgh SWATs results in Top Sniper II) but how much energy will it have remaining and will it maintain such consistent accuracy out to, say, 800yds?
It isn't ideal by any means, but a 10.5'' will make consistent hits out to 800 yards on a 12x12'' plate if you have good glass on it.
My 11'' got 24-30 hits by a friend of mine on a LaRue Sniper Target (he owns) when I let him borrow my 11'' KAC upper. He used it with NF 2.5x10X scope.
... it looked weird, but it made consistent hits. Using 75 gr. TAP, and 77 gr. BH.
It's the shooter. Not the gun.
That said, I'd rather have a Sniper M4 at that range.
BaileyMoto
02-15-11, 05:15
Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy (for the most part)..it has to do with velocity.
A 22lr with a 7" barrel will shoot to a thousand yards...if you aim it high enough. :)
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