How many rounds

[RWBlue]

I am revisiting an old topic. I thought I had an answer, but I am beginning to rethink my position.

Assuming things are bad enough that you think you need a rifle (and can get away with it).
How many rounds do you plan on carrying for your rifle?
How do you plan on carrying them with all the other stuff you need to carry? (For grins lets assume you are not just carrying the rifle around the house and in the yard.)

[glocktogo]

I am revisiting an old topic. I thought I had an answer, but I am beginning to rethink my position.

Assuming things are bad enough that you think you need a rifle (and can get away with it).
How many rounds do you plan on carrying for your rifle?
How do you plan on carrying them with all the other stuff you need to carry? (For grins lets assume you are not just carrying the rifle around the house and in the yard.)

That would really depend on your environment and where you are deploying the rifle from (home, auto, etc.) and why. Can you add any details on what you're looking for?

[Loki]

The correct answer is "depends."

Personally I always have 4 30 rounders with my rifle. If you count the 20 round mag in the gun that's 5 mags. The total package is not too heavy and still easy to conceal under a coat or light jacket.

Never hurts to have other mags available but practically 2-4 mags seem to fit the bill.

[RWBlue]

The correct answer is "depends."


That is the answer I usually give.


Can you add any details on what you're looking for?

I am thinking gear, but the gear is dependent needs. I am thinking, or say I am rethinking how I should train and what I should carry.

I am watching the guys at Magpul with single mags in single holders. This is nice and simple and if that is the only thing you are carrying......but I can not think of a time when that would be the only thing I am carrying and carrying a rifle.

Train the way you fight, fight the way you train.

And it is always nice to have lots of gear to choose from, but when it comes down to it, I don't think there will be a lot of time to change out the gear and retrain the body/mind as to where stuff is.

So I am left with making a decision and living with that decision.

[glocktogo]

Well I always keep a single kydex pouch with a tek-loc handy. I can put it on just about any belt and it gives me quick access to a spare mag. A few mags handy to stuff in pockets is also a good idea. For true SHTF, I have a 5.11 type vest that will hold a buttload of stuff (including mags), and a go bag with more mags and ammo.

The situation will dictate what I grab.

[Joe Mamma]

I am also in the "it depends" category.

But let me say that if you are in a situation where you are working with someone else, you may want to double the number of mags in case you have to supply the other guy (assuming same type of gun of course). So in these situations, I keep 6 mags ready to go, that way we can each have 3 mags.

Joe Mamma

[PA PATRIOT]

On the road...210rds for the primary rifle and 52rds for the sidearm.

At home...every magazine I own is loaded to -2 of capacity to help with spring life.

At least One 1000rd case of Doc's Recommended loadings in reserve for each weapon I own.

Training...anything I can afford and buy bulk if I can find it.

[Outlander Systems]

Depends.

Loadout one is a "War Belt" setup with the ability to stow six mags, but I only carry three.

Loadout two is an old-school Blackhawk vest that holds twelve mags, but I only carry six.

Loadout one is most likely the one I'd break glass on if a grid-down popped off.

[fixer]

+1 for "depends".

i've seen plenty of people over the years who hae a "survivaal" rig that's full battle rattle LBV with 13 or more mags, plus a bunch more ammo in a pack.

the loadout becomes huge and will limit your ability to move quickly or quietly.

for me, i have a 2 mag pouch on the back of my Camelbak HAWG with two mags in it, and i also have belt mag pouches from Blade Tec and The Wilderness and a minimal chest rig from Spectre Gear that has three pockets that hold two mags each... plus a few pistol mags. (their website says it only holds one mag per pocket) the Spectre chest rig is easy to conceal under a light jacket.

i'd also like to get one of the Sneakybags or Hawkepack carriers and another one of the Spectre rigs. some of the simple "active shooter" rigs that can carry 2 to 6 rifle mags plus some pistol mags and are FAST to grab and go make sense.

and a spare mag on the gun in a buttstock carrier is also a good idea. i'm not a big fan of mag couplers or the Ready Mag.

DON'T count on local LE or NG handing out mags & ammo. don't laugh, i've heard some people cite that as a reason for choosing the AR in 5.56.

my gear is planned in layers. spare mag on the rifle, spare mags on the belt, spare mags on the Camelbak and finally the chest rig. i can mix and match as needed.

for stored ammo... just look at the current trend in price and availability. buy it by the case and stash some. don't burn thru everything for playtime/practice. a case per rifle is a decent reserve.

[PA PATRIOT]

DON'T count on local LE or NG handing out mags. don't laugh, i've heard some people cite that as a reason for choosing the AR in 5.56.


I can second this, there is not a L/E or national Guard unit in this country which would hand out weapons, magazines or ammunition to any civilian during a emergency. Your lucky just to get food or clean water after several days wait.

If you don't have what you need before the event occurs then your Shit out of luck! The only one who is going to help you during a event is "YOURSELF" so buy and store what you need now!

[6933]

Different gear for different scenarios. Hopefully I'll be able to get to what I need when I need it. The kit I have with me I envision using to get to homebase. If I'm 500 miles from home and SHTF, then I'll have to make do. Better to have something than nothing. FWIW: I've begun to take a serious loadout whenever I travel by car. Example: Went out of state 2 wks. ago. Took my HK USP .45 and wife's USPc. 4 mags each, 3 boxes WWB .45. 2-2 mag(belt) holders and 2 OWB holsters. Threw in the 6920, 5 Pmags(28 in each), 2-200 rd. XM193 boxes. Eagle vest that holds three mags. Case of water(we drink lots anyway), box of Cliff bars. Sounds like a sh**load of gear. Packed nicely into trunk along with suitcases. Not visible to outside. Both of us have CCP's and we traveled through states with reciprocity agreements. Not paranoid, prepared. Most likely little help available in a SHTF scenario(or worse). Fend for yourself. Lived in NOLA before, during, and after, Katrina. LE and NG were non-existent for first week(in enough numbers to do anything other than maintain order at selected sites).

[slapshot]

While I have an AR, I still think the diminutive 22LR makes a good survival gun. You can carry a lot of ammo (1000 rounds), kill small game or 2 legged if needed, and it's quiet. Maybe I'm wrong but...........

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

While I have an AR, I still think the diminutive 22LR makes a good survival gun. You can carry a lot of ammo (1000 rounds), kill small game or 2 legged if needed, and it's quiet. Maybe I'm wrong but...........

I think this is what makes an AR the ultimate EOTWAWKI rifle. Throw in a conversion kit, or another upper and a couple of poundsof 22lr will keep you in game for a long time. Plus, when bullets start to fly is someone going to cry party-foul if you are throwing some cheap 22lr lead too? Not knock down, but beats a knife.

[Chris19delta]

if im moving by foot, 210 rounds of 556 and 32 rnds of 45 on my vest, with another 120 rnds of 556 and 50 of 45 in my BOB. if im moving by vehicle that all depends on how much time i have to move stuff from the house to the truck.

[Jerm]

I've almost finished setting up a khaki/foliage(-fashion fyi) s-type(left side carry) Fatboy Versipack.It holds 4 PMAG 30s nicely.I have an insert on the way to keep them a little more secure and upright but the size is just about perfect.

I also have two 17rd pistol mags in sheaths on the forward attachment point and another two in a Janus extension.

I added a Janus(sans buckles) to the waste strap(which has recently replaced the belt snap apparently) as well.So there's plenty of room for my multi-tool,FAK,and other odds & ends.There's still several attachment points for other pouches/etc to play with.

I'll also use it to carry my M&P compact as a BUG to the FS on the right hip.

I guess you could call it a BOB of sorts...Fairly discreet...Easy to grab and throw over your shoulder...Highly modular...

5 AR mags(a 20 in the rifle) and 5 handgun mags...

140 for the rifle 226 total.

Edit-Forgot the 13 rnds of 9mm in the compact(239 total).

This is the current plan/project anyway.

[fixer]

I guess you could call it a BOB of sorts...Fairly discreet...Easy to grab and throw over your shoulder...Highly modular...

ok, the Versapack is discrete. however the RIFLE that it feeds ain't. sooo perhaps the only advantage is that if someone sees it in your home or vehicle it doesn't look unusual... as long as you can keep the other hardware hidden.

i just got a Hawkepack Rifle BOB for a good price. i'd looked at several other versions but jumped on the RBOB when i found it.

but the whole "discrete pack" thing just doesn't work once you grab the long gun. there is the Sneaky Bag rifle case... but it's still oversize unless you have an AR pistol, a folding stock AK, or something else that's very compact.

[Jerm]

I was actually thinking more about getting some use out of the thing pre-SHTF.I had an Eagle chest rig and didn't even want to wear it at the range(fudd-ville).With this I could(not that I would) wear it through the mall,after maybe moving the pistol mags into a pocket where they weren't visible.It'll be nice to really put it through its paces and work out any kinks.

This could also mean being more likely to actually have it arround if/when S does HTF.

Having said that...

I do think the Nike bat bag I often carry an AR in,in combination with the Versipack,would make for a fairly discreet way to move about at times when it may be desirable.

It's definitely more discreet than a chest rig,carries more,easier to grab & go,can be used as a dump pouch,and I like the way it rides off to the left side.

[woody d]

While I have an AR, I still think the diminutive 22LR makes a good survival gun. You can carry a lot of ammo (1000 rounds), kill small game or 2 legged if needed, and it's quiet. Maybe I'm wrong but...........

id have to agree with you. i had a neighbor a couple years ago who was a Vietnam vet, and always kept a 10/22 compact model beside his easy chair with a 30 rd mag and a red dot on it for an all around quick one to get to. when i questioned his selection his only response was "everyone ducks when lead is flying by." considering what he had unloaded in his safe it was a head scratcher for me, but who am i to question a guy whos been there done that?

[thunderinms]

Low threat of contact - USGI 4 mag bandoleer slung over the shoulder; tactical gear with 8 mags nearby.

Medium threat - USGI 4 mag bandoleer; SIGPRO "camera vest" with 4 mags on my person; tactical gear with 8 mags VERY nearby

High threat - Tactical gear with 12 magazines on person; couple 4 mag bandoleers stashed at rally point

[Atticus Rex]

I figure that if I'm going to have to carry significant amounts of ammo and it's a SHTF scenario (house is unsafe to stay in, food shortages, desperate people, mob behavior, etc.) then I'm loaded with a heavy hikers backpack, as is my wife, and 4 little ones each have a small backpack with what they can carry (small mylar bags of water, some food, clothes, etc.). The packs my wife and I carry will have the balance of the heavy stuff including ham radios, batteries, lighting, water filtration, mres, food bar rations, tent, blankets, fire, cooking, fuel, etc.

With my pack being a good 30lbs, and with my <7lb AR on a 2 point or 1 point sling on front, I think I'd fill my 4 mags with ammo, then somehow pack another 200 rounds at least somewhere...burying the other 1500 or so rounds left behind. I'd also have a holstered glock 21sf and 2 additional mags on my belt for that, and maybe bring another 100 rounds of that somewhere.

We'd hit the railroad tracks and head out of town stealthily as possible. Or float out on the Bitterroot river if we could arrange it. RR tracks or river because the roads would likely be compromised and not low profile. Also, I'm assuming gas is long gone and our cars are useless. We would head to less populated mountain valleys facing south, or to near enough cities.

Short answer, having said all that: 320 rounds of 5.56 and 139 rounds of .45acp. Also, none of us are in shape enough to hump around 1000 rounds of anything, and I doubt carrying our packs would even be possible, but we'd try.

[pac022]

ok i have a question now since were on the subject of when the shtf. i am sort of new to the whole tactical load out thing so please bear with me. assuming it has gotten that bad...ie katrina and you cant get your vehicle out to carry all of this gear in. then what? how bout potable water, food? again please forgive this newbie question.

[pac022]

perhaps that question was posted under the wrong thread. please forgive me.

[Atticus Rex]

ok i have a question now since were on the subject of when the shtf. i am sort of new to the whole tactical load out thing so please bear with me. assuming it has gotten that bad...ie katrina and you cant get your vehicle out to carry all of this gear in. then what? how bout potable water, food? again please forgive this newbie question.

If you're reduced to packing everything you'll need for 72 hours or more, your first goal is to build a plan...hopefully before the disaster. For example, you're in Katrina and you need to get to the closest undamaged area some aid workers told you about. If that area/city is 2 days hike away, then you plan for 3. If it's 3 days away, plan for 4. Figure out the minimum of water you'll need for that (no, the gallon a day is not needed and you probably don't currently drink a gallon a day). But several of those 6oz packets of water a day would be great. Keep in mind you'll be hiking to that location though and that your body will need lots of water. If you can carry your own water (blocs or pouches or water bottles), great, if not, the next best thing is a good, portable filter and some empty bottles. I have the Katadyn Hiker filter in my pack ready to go. If you don't have water, and you don't have a filter and you can't find water, and you can find a stream/river, etc. , dig off the bank of the stream/river and drink that rather than the stream's water which allows the ground to naturally filter some of the water.

Anyway, have a plan before the disaster. Only you know the city you live in and you'll know the safe places to make camp, or the routes to flee with. Plan, plan plan. When I lived in California, we were always prepared for when the Hayward Fault would explode and leave the SF Bay Area in ruins. I worked 20 miles away from home and my wife and I had a plan called "route 22" which was a non freeway route made up of 22 miles and along this route there were locations I'd leave markers with duct tape. Horizontal line of tape if I"m at that location, a vertical strip over the horizontal if I've already passed it. I worked in a liquefaction zone but she would be coming from our house which would not likely destroy our car so she could possibly drive the route and check for markers and find me. If she couldn't come for me, she'd listen on the scanner at specific intervals of the day (noon, 4pm, 8pm, 12am) for 15 minutes for my transmission (ham radio on the local repeater or a simplex channel). ANyway, it had more to it, but it was a plan for us to hook up. Also, if you have a plan, PRACTICE it! Then we had an evacuation plan for getting out of our city, which is a total ghetto and would be full of crime.

Pack according to your plan. As others have stated, being armed is obvious..but possibly concealing your weapons may be needed. I suggest as secret a route as possible to avoid being seen. If you're solo, then you have a lot more options than I do with a wife and four little ones (2, 5, 7, &9). My movements will be slow and at much higher risk than yours. We'll all have backpacks with gear for the situations that might arise in our area. You will pack your bag with stuff pertinent to your situation. At the very least, get those 3600 calorie Datrex food rations. They're shrink wrapped, mylar sealed, 18 little 200 cal bars that are non thirst provoking, and they're not bad tasting. They're small. If you need 2k calories per day to sustain hiking with a pack, that's a day and a half. If you're going 4 days and you are packing 5 days of those bars (yum) and no MREs or freeze dried food and water, then do the math. Don't forget simple shelter, space blankets to trap your body heat, watch some Bear Grylls 'Man vs. Wild' (urban escape episode) for some other skills, and get ready!

The contents of my heavy pack:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk103/lronchef/IMG_2432.jpg
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk103/lronchef/IMG_2436.jpg

[thunderinms]

ok i have a question now since were on the subject of when the shtf. i am sort of new to the whole tactical load out thing so please bear with me. assuming it has gotten that bad...ie katrina and you cant get your vehicle out to carry all of this gear in. then what? how bout potable water, food? again please forgive this newbie question.

Ammo is just one of the functions of Load Bearing Equipment. There should be a balance of sustainment items and tactical items in your "loadout." Here is an option I am researching for discrete usage:

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_10205656____SearchResults

And do not go spend mag bucks on tacticool items. I have spent hundreds. Do your research on what will work best for you, moreover what fits your body type and go from there.

[hatidua]

I Figure out the minimum of water you'll need for that (no, the gallon a day is not needed and you probably don't currently drink a gallon a day). But several of those 6oz packets of water a day would be great.

There's absolutely no way, not even close, that I could get by on 'several 6oz packets of water' if we are talking about more than a few hours with a pack on my back and walking. I'd admire those that can but I'm decidedly not in that group.

[Flight-ER-Doc]

The amount of water a person needs per day depends on many variables, but 'several' 4-oz ounce packets isn't going to do it ANYWHERE. Unless your definition of 'several' is a couple dozen.

A gallon a day is the recommendation from the Red Cross, and is based on staying put, relatively inactive, and cooking more or less normal foods. You can easily need 2 gallons, or more if the weather is hot, you're working hard (especially if not used to it), under stress, sick, eating dehydrated or freeze dried foods, etc.

The minimum is about a quart a day, in a cool environment, not eating and not working. Think lifeboat in a cool area. Troops in the desert can easily go through several gallons each during the day.

[tpd223]

"Troops in the desert can easily go through several gallons each during the day."

I recall the Israelis have a ratio of like 5 gallons per man per day from my reading, and in my "Army training sir" experience in the desert that is pretty accurate.

[Glock17JHP]

I am revisiting an old topic. I thought I had an answer, but I am beginning to rethink my position.

Assuming things are bad enough that you think you need a rifle (and can get away with it).
How many rounds do you plan on carrying for your rifle?
How do you plan on carrying them with all the other stuff you need to carry? (For grins lets assume you are not just carrying the rifle around the house and in the yard.)

If things are 'bad enough' as you say... why are you out and about with a rifle? Are you out there as a civilian, or as LE, or National Guard? If you are out there as a civilian, and it is bad enough to think you might need a rifle... why not just stay home???

[mcclainm]

If things are 'bad enough' as you say... why are you out and about with a rifle? Are you out there as a civilian, or as LE, or National Guard? If you are out there as a civilian, and it is bad enough to think you might need a rifle... why not just stay home???

Because sometimes you don't have the option of staying put ie. Riots and violence, environmental factors, or just plain movement to a safer area. The 'let's just stay put and ride it out' mindset got a lot of people killed in NOLA during Katrina. Sometimes you have to move, whether you like it or not. If things ever got bad enough where I have to move and be relatively heavily armed, I'm going to do so. I won't go out looking for a gunfight, but I will be ready if one finds me.

[Glock17JHP]

I understand being ready... I understand leaving a flooded or burning neighborhood, etc...

Low profile is still important... you don't need to become a target...

If I were 'bugging out' of my neighborhood because the house/area were uninhabitable (as in 'no other good option left to me'), I would have a concealed handgun on my person, and my shotgun would be within fairly quick/easy reach. Both firearms would not be obvious to even someone fairly close physically to me. We would all (family) be watching eachother's backs at this time, we already do this even when traversing a store parking lot.

The point I would like to make is simply this: The gear some are suggesting having on one's person would make them really stand out in my neighborhood!!! If you 'look' well-prepared with supplies or gear, you look like a good target to someone who is desperate and has neither...

[moonshot]

This is a very interesting thread. I keep visiting the same questions in my head, and I've not yet found a good solution (at least not one that seems viable to me).

Unless a radioactive cloud is headed your way or the houses are going up in flames one by one, I keep thinking staying put makes more sense than bugging out.

As bad as it may be "at home", it's got top be worse in the field. If you think it's time to leave, so does everyone else.

Plan on finding potable water? It'll be contaminated with human waste, decaying bodies (animal and human), and possibly pathogens introduced by who knows who to "poison the well". Also, everyone else will be headed to the water for the same reasons you are. It's going to get real crowded real quick.

Grab your 10/22 for game? What game? Whatever was alive will be gone in short order, plus rounds will be flying in all directions as idiots start shooting at anything they see moving. Think it's dangerous during hunting season? Multiply this by a factor of 1000.

Want to start a fire to keep warm at night or heat water for your rehydrated Mountain House supplies you diligently stored prior to the "big day", and you may as well post a flashing sign saying "here is someone with stuff worth taking".

What about perimiter security when you sleep (or when you're awake, for that matter)? You're going to have to sleep sometime. Is your significant other able to function alone? He/she will need to be able to do more than just wake you up and say "there is someone out there". By that time, rounds will be incoming and/or you'll all have a knife at your throats.

I just can not imaging choosing to leave under any but the most horrible environmental situation.

It's one thing to go camping with the family and try out your gear. It's another thing when everyone is doing the same thing, only now whatever you have is fair game for whoever wants to try and take it. You can't carry enough ammo to stop them all.

I am beginning to think the key is to establish a bug out location ahead of time. It might be a cave in the mountains, or a friend's house in the country. If the place isn't yours, get permission ahead of time, and preposition supplies there. Decide what criteria needs to happen to trigger your leaving, and follow your plan. Get to this place before the roads are clogged, the gas is gone, the hordes are roaming, and the shit is flying. Hopefully this is a defensible location, and you can ride the storm out there.

If shit happens so fast that there is no time to evacuate prior to the "big event", you really are on your own. You may have to wait it out and make your way to your bug out loation as best you can after the initial looting is over. In this case, ammo may be your best friend. One hand gun and one rifle per person, a small backpack of supplies, several thousand calories of energy bars, water, and you're off. No living of the land, just scoot from one defendable location to another until you ge to where you want to be.

Forget about being discrete. Shoot whatever gets too close and move. I'm talking Mad Max here. Hopefully, your bug out location is defended and they are expecting you. If not...

[DevilPhrog]

On the road...210rds for the primary rifle and 52rds for the sidearm.

At home...every magazine I own is loaded to -2 of capacity to help with spring life.

At least One 1000rd case of Doc's Recommended loadings in reserve for each weapon I own.

Training...anything I can afford and buy bulk if I can find it.

Also new here, and just wonder what exactly is Doc's recommended loadings?

[Glock17JHP]

Also new here, and just wonder what exactly is Doc's recommended loadings?

Go here and look over the 'Stickys'...

https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

[Glock17JHP]

This is a very interesting thread. I keep visiting the same questions in my head, and I've not yet found a good solution (at least not one that seems viable to me).

Unless a radioactive cloud is headed your way or the houses are going up in flames one by one, I keep thinking staying put makes more sense than bugging out.

As bad as it may be "at home", it's got top be worse in the field. If you think it's time to leave, so does everyone else.

Plan on finding potable water? It'll be contaminated with human waste, decaying bodies (animal and human), and possibly pathogens introduced by who knows who to "poison the well". Also, everyone else will be headed to the water for the same reasons you are. It's going to get real crowded real quick.

Grab your 10/22 for game? What game? Whatever was alive will be gone in short order, plus rounds will be flying in all directions as idiots start shooting at anything they see moving. Think it's dangerous during hunting season? Multiply this by a factor of 1000.

Want to start a fire to keep warm at night or heat water for your rehydrated Mountain House supplies you diligently stored prior to the "big day", and you may as well post a flashing sign saying "here is someone with stuff worth taking".

What about perimiter security when you sleep (or when you're awake, for that matter)? You're going to have to sleep sometime. Is your significant other able to function alone? He/she will need to be able to do more than just wake you up and say "there is someone out there". By that time, rounds will be incoming and/or you'll all have a knife at your throats.

I just can not imaging choosing to leave under any but the most horrible environmental situation.

It's one thing to go camping with the family and try out your gear. It's another thing when everyone is doing the same thing, only now whatever you have is fair game for whoever wants to try and take it. You can't carry enough ammo to stop them all.

I am beginning to think the key is to establish a bug out location ahead of time. It might be a cave in the mountains, or a friend's house in the country. If the place isn't yours, get permission ahead of time, and preposition supplies there. Decide what criteria needs to happen to trigger your leaving, and follow your plan. Get to this place before the roads are clogged, the gas is gone, the hordes are roaming, and the shit is flying. Hopefully this is a defensible location, and you can ride the storm out there.

If shit happens so fast that there is no time to evacuate prior to the "big event", you really are on your own. You may have to wait it out and make your way to your bug out loation as best you can after the initial looting is over. In this case, ammo may be your best friend. One hand gun and one rifle per person, a small backpack of supplies, several thousand calories of energy bars, water, and you're off. No living of the land, just scoot from one defendable location to another until you ge to where you want to be.

Forget about being discrete. Shoot whatever gets too close and move. I'm talking Mad Max here. Hopefully, your bug out location is defended and they are expecting you. If not...

Agree with most of your points here... especially up until the line that ends with: "You can't carry enough ammo to stop them all." After that part I don't totally agree, but I applaud the points you made here!!!

[DevilPhrog]

Go here and look over the 'Stickys'...

https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Thank you.

[PA PATRIOT]

It appears most here think that once you are forced to leave your home due to a emergency your stepping into the wild west with gun slinger's behind every tumble weed and bullets flying thur the air at every turn. Most likely all you will find is very scared people looking for a safe place to go, all looking about the same not really drawing any attention to them selfs, now here comes Johny Prepared with the big back packs and battle rifles either walking or driving down the road way. Which do you think will draw the most attention? People that blend in with the norm or Johny Prepared? Bad guys if organized into hunter packs may just take you on thinking your a big score, Law Enforcement/Military may see you as a armed threat and decide to disarm you. Discrete appearance and movement is a better option as not to draw the attention of either the criminal or the good guys. Normal school sized back packs for each member of your party with only the very basics of life inside keeps your appearance in line with what would be seen in the fleeing masses and concealed firearms don't draw un-wanted attention or raise alarm during your travels. Being prepared is great but most tend to over think and over buy packing way to much gear which will only slow them down and paint a bulls eyes on their backs. Now looking at past large scale emergencies in are life times people got by with just about nothing and unless nukes or a meteor hits close by most are only at a days travel by vehicle out of the hot zone and a few days on foot until the local authorities start shipping the masses out. Pack light, pack discrete and have a course of travel set and you can survive just about any local disaster there is.

[moonshot]

It's all situation dependant. If you have time to make an orderly evac, you can pack light and get out of town to some location away from the troubles. This works great in a weather emergency or a local man-made emergency that will be short-lived (hurricane or nuc-plant release, for instance).

It falls apart when the emergency requireing evac covers a regional or national area - terrorist nuc detonation, wide-scale riots due to any of a number of trigger events, economic collapse, etc. In this scenario, there really is no other place to go. If you're lucky and you have a pre-planned discrete and isolated location - great. Most don't.

All the "stuff" that helps you survive the collapse of civilization will also attract attention. Things like - long arms, extra mags, food, water, sleeping bags, etc. Anything small enough to fit into a school-sized backpack will be of limited use - unless you're a retired Navy Seal.

Simply "fitting in" is also no secure means of surviving. Desperate people do desperate things. A candy bar or bottle of water may be all it takes for someone else to decide they need it more thay you do. The people at the Metro Dome in NO all fit in, only some didn't make it out.

My point is to stay as far away from the masses as possible. They use up local food, water, and supplies, they may want your stuff, and there will be a lot more of them than there are of you.

Out of site is critical. Forget blending in. I want to be invisible. That is why staying home (or where ever you happen to be) makes more sense to me than joining in the hordes of evacuees fleeing town either for the hills, or for "official" governent storage areas.

If you are part of a large group of disorganized and discrete people, one of three things will occure - you will come under attack from those who want your stuff, you will come under attack by the authorities who see you as a threat, or you will be disarmed, releived of your supplies, and left to fend for yourself in a refugee camp.

None of these sound too appealing to me.