View Full Version : Barrel Length for Suppressor Threading
I am about to purchase a Remington 700 and eventually I want to put a suppressor on it. I am wondering which option will be best for this situation...
I want to end up with a 20" barrel. Would it be better to go with the SPS Tactical 20" barrel and have it threaded or get the SPS Varmint with the 26" barrel and have it cut down and threaded. I don't know if there would be an advantage to either. Thanks.
Robb Jensen
02-28-10, 10:57
Are you getting a .308?
Sorry, Yes it will be a .308
Robb Jensen
02-28-10, 11:48
Sorry, Yes it will be a .308
For .308 either will do fine. Twist rates are the same between the two. Cutting and threading will probably cost more than just threading.
I am about to purchase a Remington 700 and eventually I want to put a suppressor on it. I am wondering which option will be best for this situation...
I want to end up with a 20" barrel. Would it be better to go with the SPS Tactical 20" barrel and have it threaded or get the SPS Varmint with the 26" barrel and have it cut down and threaded. I don't know if there would be an advantage to either. Thanks.
My only concern in the barrel length would be for long range (600+ Yards) shooting. If your buying your rifle to shoot sub 500 yard shooting than a 20" would be ok I guess? I know the 20" looks a lot more tacticool than the 26" heavy barrel, but if you are wanting a long range tack driver, stick with the length of the 26"!
EasyRhino72
03-31-10, 21:24
Either way works. I have to disagree with the previous post though. Barrel lenght has little effect on accuracy. It does however affect velocity... that said a 20 inch barrel with a can on the end will have a higher velocity than just a 20 inch barrel (without the can). The point is that out to 1K you are fine with a 20 or even 18 inch barrel.
hope that helps. NM
Either way works. I have to disagree with the previous post though. Barrel lenght has little effect on accuracy. It does however affect velocity... that said a 20 inch barrel with a can on the end will have a higher velocity than just a 20 inch barrel (without the can). The point is that out to 1K you are fine with a 20 or even 18 inch barrel.
hope that helps. NM
+1 In a .308, there is no real practical advantage to the longer barrel within 1,000 yds. Yes, there is some small reduction in velocity, but this doesn't necessarily have a negative impact on accuracy. In fact it has been shown that accuracy can actually increase as the barrel is shortened, at least to as short as 18". I'm currently experimenting with a Rem 700 barrel shortened to 16" to see what the minimum practical length is, which will still be accurate within the efective range of the .308.
I would say the practical min length is about 12-13 inches. I have a 16 on my AI.
All LE .308s should be 16 inches or less. They *N*E*V*E*R* shoot over 30 or so yards, and 16 inches is real good to about 500 yards.
Also, going from a 26 inch to 20 inch, you need 1 faster twist.
So if you wanted 1:10 before, then you want 1:9 now. If you wanted 1:12 before, you want 1:11 now.
This is to get the rpm back up from losing the 150 fps or so in muzzle velocity.
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-and-stability/
MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM
Regarding barrel length, I routinely get hits at 1000 with a 20 inch, 10-twist, barrel pushing 155 scenars at 2875. When I shoot with my can (and I rarely don't), I get a boost of approximately 30fps. Today's components, from the barrels to the powder and bullets, are good enough to get you there without any issue.
If you are shooting in "tactical" competitions, the majority of points are made within 800 yards, and maneuverability is more important than the added velocity from barrel length. For the next competition that I shoot in, I'll be running a 20 inch .308 with a brake rather than a can specifically for the maneuverability.
Lastly, here is a good video from the the gentleman that owns and runs Sniper's Hide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qj032UJ1I
Your biggest concern will be barrel quality rather than length. Unfortunately, Remington leaves a lot to be desired in their factory commercial-grade rifle barrels.
I got an SPS Varmint and planned on cutting down the barrel, but ended up just replacing the barrel altogether with a 22" after-market (sold the barrel to a local guy for well less than I paid for the upgrade from a standard ADL to an SPS Varmint).
Being as I replaced the stock as well, I didn't really get much for the extra money I paid for the SPS at all (go ahead and throw the factory stock in the trash - its not worth an attempt to bed it).
Did the same thing with my son's build only by that time I had learned my lesson and just got the cheapest Remington 700 I could find and had the action blueprinted and replaced the barrel/stock.
I don't regret either choice and am happy with both rifles at 22" and can ding steel at 1000yds with little issue.
That said, the 5R mil-spec and 700P rifles are supposed to have higher QC restrictions and supposedly better quality. If I were looking at getting a factory rifle and sticking with Remington's barrel, I'd look at one of those models.
One thing to consider when getting a suppressor is if you're getting an AAC that requires you to cut the end up to fit inside the QD adapter (I have an AAC MITER connector - it slips around the barrel but requires the barrel to be cut down to fit inside the connector), its nice to have just enough barrel-length that if you cut that part off (if you wanted to sell the suppressor), you still have the shortest length you're comfortable with (which for me was 20").
Thanks for the replys everyone. I ended up getting a SPS Tactical with the 20" barrel. I already got a McMillan A5 for it and am about to get it threaded.
Be sure to post some pictures for us. ;-)
I went with an off-the-shelf PSS. The first thing I did was have my buddies at APA (f.k.a. "Patriot Arms") cut the barrel to 20", re-crown and do a trigger job. I have zero problems getting to 1000-yards with the rifle.
I finally had the stock properly bedded and added some Badger bottom metal and an APA bolt knob. Of course, APA did all the work for me. I am extremely pleased with the results.
I mostly only shoot out to 700-yards and had really thought hard about cutting that barrel down further to 18". I am very happy with the balance of the rifle as it is so I'm sticking with 20".
I got lucky with my barrel and it shoots well enough that I'm happy with it. That said, the 5R that was recommended is a great choice.
Mark
Dirk Williams
05-03-10, 21:32
Im amused by a couple of post here. One being 20/18 is better then 26 or longer. 2nd being cops never shoot of 30 yards.
Everything ive ever studied on ballistics for the .308 tells you that a longer barrel is optimum 24/26 . If a longer barrel is optimum better powder burn more efficient then I understand that to mean most efficient.
Im not saying that the shorter barrels won't shoot Im just saying that I can find no scientific data to support the shorter is better boasts.
My own sniper instructors are into shortening barrels and swear by shorter lighter rifles. I guess Im just old fashion and believe that the data in longer barreled rifles is solid, and not a fad.
I simply can't bring myself to hacking a Krieger barrel off, when the ballistic data says something else.
Ive seen lots of guys shoot the shorties very very well. Im just saying its just worth taking a second look at the long term data .
I'd also like to get a can for my 308 the barrel and vias comp are 27 1/2 long. Im afraid I might put someone's eye out if I added a can for overall length.
As for cop shoots, where we are stationed a 500/700 yard shot is a very real posibility. My last class quoted 70 yards as the average.
Good luck on your project.
D Williams
Everything ive ever studied on ballistics for the .308 tells you that a longer barrel is optimum 24/26 . If a longer barrel is optimum better powder burn more efficient then I understand that to mean most efficient.
Im not saying that the shorter barrels won't shoot Im just saying that I can find no scientific data to support the shorter is better boasts.
Good points Dirk, thanks for the input. The ballistic data that I have shows an approximate 10fps loss for every inch that is taken off of the barrel. As it stands, with my current rifle (20 inch, 10 twist), unsuppressed, it takes approximately 9.5 mils to the 1k mark. In this case, I'm more worried about wind than elevation.
I'm no sniper, and certainly won't be using my bolt guns for anything other than practical rifle competitions, but I'll consistently take the velocity loss in favor of maneuverability and portability. Especially given that the majority of points are scored within 800 yards. Again, I think that today's components are good enough to negate the need for a longer barrel and a heavier rifle.
The rub is that I have to push the bullets harder, which seriously runs down barrel life. I fully expect my barrel to be shot out by 4-5k rounds pushing 155 scenars this hard.
As per always, your mileage may vary. This is a good discussion.
Best,
Josh
Im amused by a couple of post here. One being 20/18 is better then 26 or longer. 2nd being cops never shoot of 30 yards.
Everything ive ever studied on ballistics for the .308 tells you that a longer barrel is optimum 24/26 . If a longer barrel is optimum better powder burn more efficient then I understand that to mean most efficient.
Im not saying that the shorter barrels won't shoot Im just saying that I can find no scientific data to support the shorter is better boasts.
My own sniper instructors are into shortening barrels and swear by shorter lighter rifles. I guess Im just old fashion and believe that the data in longer barreled rifles is solid, and not a fad.
I simply can't bring myself to hacking a Krieger barrel off, when the ballistic data says something else.
Ive seen lots of guys shoot the shorties very very well. Im just saying its just worth taking a second look at the long term data .
I'd also like to get a can for my 308 the barrel and vias comp are 27 1/2 long. Im afraid I might put someone's eye out if I added a can for overall length.
As for cop shoots, where we are stationed a 500/700 yard shot is a very real posibility. My last class quoted 70 yards as the average.
Good luck on your project.
D Williams
What do you mean by "optimum" or "better" and what ballistic data are you referring to?
I've never seen any data out there that equates longer barrels with higher accuracy in .308 - only higher velocity (which does sometimes go hand-in-hand with higher accuracy, but the two are not the same thing by any means and are almost mutually exclusive in calibers like .308 - especially in the lighter weight bullets).
As a matter of fact, several tests have been performed with two identical barrels where one is cut down in length and it actually gains accuracy (in .308).
Aside from pushing a really heavy bullet, I can't honestly think of one advantage with a longer barrel over a shorter one (save velocity) and that difference in velocity is often marginal at best.
Barrel stiffness is usually a much higher factor than length (and by shortening a barrel, its stiffness can actually be increased - and this is directly tied to accuracy).
Here are some articles:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm
(Skip down to the section "Barrel length, accuracy and ballistics")
http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/
During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each invrement. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps).
Shorter barreled rifles are more versatile, being equally suitable for both urban and rural operations. According to Tac Ops, there isn't any need to go to the 26-inch barrel unless you want to go to a heavier bullet or push the round to higher velocity using more powder or use a slower burning powder. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) performed tests similar to those conducted by Tac Ops and came to similar conclusions.
http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length
Dirk Williams
05-08-10, 10:44
Sorry for the late return post just got out of the hospital. EZ I can't argue with you.
I just know that I look at the shooters at say Camp Perry or other distinguished shooting event around the world. I see world class shooters shooting rifles, not short barreled rifles but rifles.
This stuff is a game to most everybody here. I know this sounds ****ed up but I do this for real. Im not looking for lighter, faster handling, gismo's. I looking for proven performence which is consistantly repetitive to 1/2 MOA out to a give distance.
Ive got closets full of crap that is supposed to make my rifle a better shooting gun. In the end the formula is the same. It's the nut behind the gun that's going to get it done.
Like many of you have said repeatedly training is the constant, the deal breaker. If your not training you should re-think your focus.
I think Im going to just stay with what has worked for me for many many years.
In closing Id just like to say thank you gentleman for some very solid info. Your input helps me daily. There are some world class shooters hanging out hear I listen to what they are saying.
Respectfully, D Williams
Sorry for the late return post just got out of the hospital.
Hope things are going well for you. I've eaten more hospital food in the past two years than I care to think about.
EZ I can't argue with you.
I just know that I look at the shooters at say Camp Perry or other distinguished shooting event around the world. I see world class shooters shooting rifles, not short barreled rifles but rifles.
So, the amusement you expressed earlier is based mostly on anecdotal evidence? Interesting.
This stuff is a game to most everybody here. I know this sounds ****ed up but I do this for real. Im not looking for lighter, faster handling, gismo's. I looking for proven performence which is consistantly repetitive to 1/2 MOA out to a give distance.
You are military or LE? You mention being "stationed" somewhere. Cutting a barrel only reduces velocity. If you need long-range performance on paper, the velocity loss only hurts you in that your bullets may not have as flat a trajectory as possible with a longer barrel. For that matter, if you want flatter shooting projectiles a .308 caliber isn't the best performer out there. But guys who are issued a 7.62x51 rifle can't always ask for something different. That is a whole other thread though.
If you need terminal performance, again the velocity loss is simply reducing the maximum killing/wounding effectiveness of the projectile. That may be acceptable; it depends on the environment and mission.
Ive got closets full of crap that is supposed to make my rifle a better shooting gun. In the end the formula is the same. It's the nut behind the gun that's going to get it done.
Like many of you have said repeatedly training is the constant, the deal breaker. If your not training you should re-think your focus.
LOL. Yeah, they make just about anything you can spend your money on to improve the weapon but the biggest improvement comes from training and constant practice. You are so very spot-on about the nut behind the stock. ;)
I think Im going to just stay with what has worked for me for many many years.
Can't argue with results. Everyone needs to find what works best for them in their environment and that meets their performance expectations. There is never "one" answer. The reason I went with a 20" barrel is because I always use a suppressor. Your comment about not wanting to put a suppressor on a long barrel is very true. The weapon becomes front heavy and you will often find you risk more potential POI shift because longer barrels typically whip more. The original poster wanted to know specifically about what barrel length is "best" for suppressor use. In my opinion based on a lot of first-hand experience something in the 18" - 22" is about "best". When you have a chance to experience suppressed rifles with longer barrels perhaps you'll form a different opinion too. But if you are limiting your information to what you see at high-power and similar matches, well, you'll likely never see suppressed rifles in those environments.
In closing Id just like to say thank you gentleman for some very solid info. Your input helps me daily. There are some world class shooters hanging out hear I listen to what they are saying.
Respectfully, D Williams
That is the great thing about sites like this one. Lots of different people with different personal experiences coming together to help each other. I think it is a wonderful thing. I learn something new everyday.
Take care and I wish you a speedy recovery from whatever landing you in the hospital. Stay safe out there.
Mark
Dirk Williams
05-14-10, 11:21
Hi Mark, Got a new left hip replaced last week. Im already walking 1/2 mile a day and I feel like a million bucks now.
I had to read your post a couple of times and think about your posts and my original statements.
Mark I have to say that my statement is based on science and years and years of shooters data from those who took the time to record their data and actually did the math on it.
Ive read over and over that a 26 inch to 28 inch barrel length for a 308 is optimum for complete powder burn. I ve read and been told that optimum powder burn is critical to accuracy.
Ive also read and been told that the length of barrel stated is optimum for bullet stabilization which is also critical to accuracy. A stable bullet in my mind fly's straighter and truer for a longer period of time. I don't want to get into spin drift and coralis stuff Im staying on the rifle.
Velocity is a major contributor to accuracy, if shortening up a barrel takes velocity away then it also reduces accuracy at some point.
So now we have a situation where we don't have optimum powder burn, we don't have optimum bullet stabilization and we don't have optimum velocity.
Ive watched for 30 years as gimicks and barrel length have been argued. Myself I have to believe that is all about marketing. Im still learning myself and seem to make some of the same mistakes time and time again. My example would be a flash kill I purchased last week after speaking with a marine vet who recently got home and swore by them.
After testing it for myself, I discovered issues and decided that this is simply another gimick. Ive been doing alot of writting on this site the past few months. Mostly to seek oppinions by contributors on products on the market that will work and are not gimmicks.
So far Ive discovered some great tools, and some dud's.
Anyway back to the short barrels. Like I was saying my police sniper instructors love these shorties, at the last three trainings have attacked my 27 inch barrel with their hack saws and drills. All in fun of course.
The top guns in those classes were shooting 20 inch barrel's which says something. I have another 700 action and will build another rifle this next winter Ill use a 26 in barrel I pulled off of my remington 308 but will try it at 20 to see for myself whats up.
Mark if im wrong please straighten me out. Show me what you have learned so I can be better informed.
Thanks in advance.
D Williams
With all due respect Mr. Williams your data is not quite up to date, or the most widely accepted as being accurate this day in age. I too am in LE with over 20 yrs. I have been a long range / precision shooter and in the sniper community for quite some time. I am currently a sniper and a part of the Training Cadre for a full time SWAT unit for a major metro PD. I am the lead on the firearms side of the house. Ballistics, yada, yada, is a part of my bread and butter so to speak, besides mulling over data, I actually test everything that I can think of. Literally. This includes testing the short barrel theory by cutting in increments and shooting hundreds of rounds in the process, logging data.
Having said that my group of guys also shoot the above mentioned rifle, in the TacOps offerings. As a LE unit we probably field more of these rifles than just about any one group and for a very good reason. We have 19" barrels and primarily run suppressed and we do use the Federal 168gr GMM ammo.
While I am an "old school" or "old dog" type, I am at the same time very progressive in my methodology. I do not resist change or new ideas, just because it has worked for me for the last 20 years. I don't change "just because", as I only make true changes to my methodology only after vigorous testing on my own accord and finding out that something is truly better. We need to be able to be open minded enough to progress forward on tactics and technology. Being stagnant IMO is not a good thing.
Bullets improve, powder improves, ballistics improve, materials improve, weapons improve. All of this leads us to have to re-think or adapt our "old school" attitudes or techniques to progress forward. If not, we would still be throwing rocks and using clubs.
Regarding .308, as mentioned, FGMM is completely burnt in about 19" of barrel. Black Hills match ammo is good in 18". Not saying that you can't go less barrel and still not have a great performing rifle. Again accuracy is not as heavily related to velocity as one might wish to believe. If we look at the normal effective range of the .308 at around 800y-1000y or even go beyond those numbers say out to 1200y we really see no quantifiable affect on accuracy, especially one that we can purely relate to the rifle and ammo itself.
Do we have a loss in velocity? Yes, there is, which can be measured by chronograph or perhaps more importantly on a range by actually shooting. Now how much velocity do we lose and how does that affect the actual performance of the rifle? Well let me just sum this one up, with actual shooting sessions and logging of hundreds and hundreds of rounds. I will say that going from a 26" barrel shooting the 168 gr FGMM ammo and the Black Hills 175gr Match, we see no noticeable affect in bullet performance in regards to the velocity numbers at up to 550 yards. In other words at any barrel length from 26" to 18" with above ammo we do not dial in any any change to our DOPE up to 550 yards. :eek: Shocking, but true. I never believed it the first time I did this and it took some time to sink in. I would have bet just about anything that this was not possible. However this is not just the norm for one rifle, but every single rifle that I have seen, in this length range using the above factory match type ammo, and that is more rifles than I can count off the top of my head.
When we work up to distances nearing 1000y we see on average an increase of 2 additional mins correction in the Black Hills and around 4 mins increase in the FGMM. Again I was amazed by this, but again it holds true in all rifles that I have seen. All of this shows no signs in a lack of accuracy. So in essence even at these distances there is no ballistic effect on the .308 round in regards to a loss in velocity that we can reasonably claim a decrease in accuracy. For myself, out past 800 I tend to take into account spin drift voodoo and dial in some windage, but that is another topic.
I have yet to see any rifle cut down decrease in accuracy from a 100y zero. In reality, the more common effect is increased accuracy. Perhaps Mike R. from TacOps had this figured out a long time before it became mainstream and he has been building his rifles accordingly for many years now. Arguably the best LE tactical rifle ever created. The best I have ever handled and I have shot more than my fair share.
I know you have talked about long range precision shooters, but the needs there may be much different than a tactical shooter. For competition, having a heavy pig of a rifle is often a plus. Helps keep the weapon steady for overly magnified optics, absorbs felt recoil and also helps to keep your reticule on target. I know this because I have done my share of benchrest types of shooting also. I have even shot my 19" barrel against some top rated shooters and their custom weapons in the "for fun" shooting community. Some are enlightened but most get upset, scoff and think it a fluke. Which is always entertaining.
Now when I get into the weight savings topic, which dramatically improves ease of stalking, maneuverability, quickness of transitioning to multiple targets, tracking moving targets, increased shooter accuracy especially when positional shooting, you name it, the list goes on, there is no reasonable downside that I have been able to come up with to make me not wish to go the shorter barrel route. The noise, muzzle blast, ground disturbance etc argument is not one that I give much merit because if you are truly concerned about those issues and your need dictates that you mitigate these issues, than you should be running suppressed no matter the barrel length. And I will say that if you are going to run a suppressor on a tactical rifle IMO you had best be running a shorter barrel to begin with. :)
In summary, theoretically certain things may not add up on paper. There are talks of accuracy, velocity, barrel twist changes etc...But in reality, with the correct set up, with factory available match ammo coming out of an 18"- 20" barrel, none of these cited issues are ones that I have been able to prove valid. As a matter of fact quite opposite has been the case in every single rifle that I have seen that fits into this category. So next time your instructors tout the shorter barreled .308, you might want to cut them some slack. They are on the right track. ;)
Cutting one down to size. The right size. :)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Sniper%20School/18inchbarrelcut.jpg
A couple suppressed Tango51's
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_14061.jpg
Tango without the suppressor. Accuracy on these rifles is truly amazing. It will shoot out to 1K with or without the suppressor without any ill effects. Provided the nut behind the trigger is screwed on right. ;)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_15461.jpg
Surf,
Let me add my .002 cents worth. Back in 2007 I attended an SPR Course with GPS Defense outside of Phoenix. The instructor was a USMC sniper and helped establish the High Angle Shooting School.
On the second day (IIRC) he brought out a POF .308 gun with a short-barrel. I believe that it was 12.5 or 14.5 inches. When I asked what he was going to do with that, he said shoot.
We then got into a discussion about barrel length and to be honest I was skeptical. I always drank the long barrel= accuracy Kool-Aid. He explained that if you have good ammo, a good rifle and you know your dope you can hit your target.
I then watched him hit targets that were out between 600-800 yds. I believe that one was closer to 900! He explained that yes, you will lose muzzle velocity with a shorter barrel, but not accuracy.
With all due respect Mr. Williams your data is not quite up to date, or the most widely accepted as being accurate this day in age. I too am in LE with over 20 yrs. I have been a long range / precision shooter and in the sniper community for quite some time. I am currently a sniper and a part of the Training Cadre for a full time SWAT unit for a major metro PD. I am the lead on the firearms side of the house. Ballistics, yada, yada, is a part of my bread and butter so to speak, besides mulling over data, I actually test everything that I can think of. Literally. This includes testing the short barrel theory by cutting in increments and shooting hundreds of rounds in the process, logging data.
Having said that my group of guys also shoot the above mentioned rifle, in the TacOps offerings. As a LE unit we probably field more of these rifles than just about any one group and for a very good reason. We have 19" barrels and primarily run suppressed and we do use the Federal 168gr GMM ammo.
While I am an "old school" or "old dog" type, I am at the same time very progressive in my methodology. I do not resist change or new ideas, just because it has worked for me for the last 20 years. I don't change "just because", as I only make true changes to my methodology only after vigorous testing on my own accord and finding out that something is truly better. We need to be able to be open minded enough to progress forward on tactics and technology. Being stagnant IMO is not a good thing.
Bullets improve, powder improves, ballistics improve, materials improve, weapons improve. All of this leads us to have to re-think or adapt our "old school" attitudes or techniques to progress forward. If not, we would still be throwing rocks and using clubs.
Regarding .308, as mentioned, FGMM is completely burnt in about 19" of barrel. Black Hills match ammo is good in 18". Not saying that you can't go less barrel and still not have a great performing rifle. Again accuracy is not as heavily related to velocity as one might wish to believe. If we look at the normal effective range of the .308 at around 800y-1000y or even go beyond those numbers say out to 1200y we really see no quantifiable affect on accuracy, especially one that we can purely relate to the rifle and ammo itself.
Do we have a loss in velocity? Yes, there is, which can be measured by chronograph or perhaps more importantly on a range by actually shooting. Now how much velocity do we lose and how does that affect the actual performance of the rifle? Well let me just sum this one up, with actual shooting sessions and logging of hundreds and hundreds of rounds. I will say that going from a 26" barrel shooting the 168 gr FGMM ammo and the Black Hills 175gr Match, we see no noticeable affect in bullet performance in regards to the velocity numbers at up to 550 yards. In other words at any barrel length from 26" to 18" with above ammo we do not dial in any any change to our DOPE up to 550 yards. :eek: Shocking, but true. I never believed it the first time I did this and it took some time to sink in. I would have bet just about anything that this was not possible. However this is not just the norm for one rifle, but every single rifle that I have seen, in this length range using the above factory match type ammo, and that is more rifles than I can count off the top of my head.
When we work up to distances nearing 1000y we see on average an increase of 2 additional mins correction in the Black Hills and around 4 mins increase in the FGMM. Again I was amazed by this, but again it holds true in all rifles that I have seen. All of this shows no signs in a lack of accuracy. So in essence even at these distances there is no ballistic effect on the .308 round in regards to a loss in velocity that we can reasonably claim a decrease in accuracy. For myself, out past 800 I tend to take into account spin drift voodoo and dial in some windage, but that is another topic.
I have yet to see any rifle cut down decrease in accuracy from a 100y zero. In reality, the more common effect is increased accuracy. Perhaps Mike R. from TacOps had this figured out a long time before it became mainstream and he has been building his rifles accordingly for many years now. Arguably the best LE tactical rifle ever created. The best I have ever handled and I have shot more than my fair share.
I know you have talked about long range precision shooters, but the needs there may be much different than a tactical shooter. For competition, having a heavy pig of a rifle is often a plus. Helps keep the weapon steady for overly magnified optics, absorbs felt recoil and also helps to keep your reticule on target. I know this because I have done my share of benchrest types of shooting also. I have even shot my 19" barrel against some top rated shooters and their custom weapons in the "for fun" shooting community. Some are enlightened but most get upset, scoff and think it a fluke. Which is always entertaining.
Now when I get into the weight savings topic, which dramatically improves ease of stalking, maneuverability, quickness of transitioning to multiple targets, tracking moving targets, increased shooter accuracy especially when positional shooting, you name it, the list goes on, there is no reasonable downside that I have been able to come up with to make me not wish to go the shorter barrel route. The noise, muzzle blast, ground disturbance etc argument is not one that I give much merit because if you are truly concerned about those issues and your need dictates that you mitigate these issues, than you should be running suppressed no matter the barrel length. And I will say that if you are going to run a suppressor on a tactical rifle IMO you had best be running a shorter barrel to begin with. :)
In summary, theoretically certain things may not add up on paper. There are talks of accuracy, velocity, barrel twist changes etc...But in reality, with the correct set up, with factory available match ammo coming out of an 18"- 20" barrel, none of these cited issues are ones that I have been able to prove valid. As a matter of fact quite opposite has been the case in every single rifle that I have seen that fits into this category. So next time your instructors tout the shorter barreled .308, you might want to cut them some slack. They are on the right track. ;)
Cutting one down to size. The right size. :)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Sniper%20School/18inchbarrelcut.jpg
A couple suppressed Tango51's
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_14061.jpg
Tango without the suppressor. Accuracy on these rifles is truly amazing. It will shoot out to 1K with or without the suppressor without any ill effects. Provided the nut behind the trigger is screwed on right. ;)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_15461.jpg
Dirk Williams
05-15-10, 12:47
Gentleman thank you both for the reply's. I read with great interest both reply's and the facts in support of the short barrel. Ive seen this brand rifle at some schools in fact I had mentioned that a 18 inch barreled rifle was top gun at some of them. This brand name rifle was the winner.
In the early 90's I purchased a BuzzTail 308 for 3000.00. It was short barreled "20". Balanced, blue printed, fluted stainless steel Pac Nor crowned barrel. Bedded H&S stock and a decent leupold scope.
At the time the FBI on the West Coast and some of the Southern California Sheriff's offices were shooting these rifles. I loved the rifle, the problem is it simply would not shoot under 1 inch at any distance.
I shot 1000's of rounds thru it looking for the right bullet. the 168's did better then most but still in my mind was not tight enough for police sniper work.
Long story short I traded the rifle for a Ford Bronco and a really built 429 motor for another project. At that time I made a promise to myself to not do another SB precision rifle project.
Thank you for taking the time to explain what you have learned. This data is what Im looking for " Hands On Learned Data".
I think Im going to drink the kool aid and build a 18 inch rifle out of a 700 action, I'll cut a 24 inch Krieger barrel down and put it in a H&S stock.
Couple of questions, if I want to run a Vais brake should I cut the barrel down to 16 1/2 to add the 1.1/2 brake to make up the full 18
Barrel twist since it's shorter should I get a different twist barrel for better results. " I read one of the guys had suggested that earlier in this initial post".
Thanks again for posting what you have learned. Im sure that everybody who's on this site and into long range stuff is greatful for you sharing what you have learned and how you have learned it.
Of critical importance to me is your credentials, your years of experience, and objective learning and sharing what you learned with the others here.
Respectfully,
D Williams
Surf,
Let me add my .002 cents worth. Back in 2007 I attended an SPR Course with GPS Defense outside of Phoenix. The instructor was a USMC sniper and helped establish the High Angle Shooting School.
On the second day (IIRC) he brought out a POF .308 gun with a short-barrel. I believe that it was 12.5 or 14.5 inches. When I asked what he was going to do with that, he said shoot.
We then got into a discussion about barrel length and to be honest I was skeptical. I always drank the long barrel= accuracy Kool-Aid. He explained that if you have good ammo, a good rifle and you know your dope you can hit your target.
I then watched him hit targets that were out between 600-800 yds. I believe that one was closer to 900! He explained that yes, you will lose muzzle velocity with a shorter barrel, but not accuracy.
From my experiences, I agree completely with what you mention in your post and experiences at GPS Defense, 100%. They have a great program and facility out there.
Gentleman thank you both for the reply's. I read with great interest both reply's and the facts in support of the short barrel. Ive seen this brand rifle at some schools in fact I had mentioned that a 18 inch barreled rifle was top gun at some of them. This brand name rifle was the winner.
In the early 90's I purchased a BuzzTail 308 for 3000.00. It was short barreled "20". Balanced, blue printed, fluted stainless steel Pac Nor crowned barrel. Bedded H&S stock and a decent leupold scope.
At the time the FBI on the West Coast and some of the Southern California Sheriff's offices were shooting these rifles. I loved the rifle, the problem is it simply would not shoot under 1 inch at any distance.
I shot 1000's of rounds thru it looking for the right bullet. the 168's did better then most but still in my mind was not tight enough for police sniper work.
Long story short I traded the rifle for a Ford Bronco and a really built 429 motor for another project. At that time I made a promise to myself to not do another SB precision rifle project.
Thank you for taking the time to explain what you have learned. This data is what Im looking for " Hands On Learned Data".
I think Im going to drink the kool aid and build a 18 inch rifle out of a 700 action, I'll cut a 24 inch Krieger barrel down and put it in a H&S stock.
Couple of questions, if I want to run a Vais brake should I cut the barrel down to 16 1/2 to add the 1.1/2 brake to make up the full 18
Barrel twist since it's shorter should I get a different twist barrel for better results. " I read one of the guys had suggested that earlier in this initial post".
Thanks again for posting what you have learned. Im sure that everybody who's on this site and into long range stuff is greatful for you sharing what you have learned and how you have learned it.
Of critical importance to me is your credentials, your years of experience, and objective learning and sharing what you learned with the others here.
Respectfully,
D Williams
IMO and this is only an educated guess as I haven't actually seen it happen, but in order for the .308 to lose some accuracy you would need the bullet to destabilize enough to the point where cavitation would cause a decrease in accuracy. As the bullet gets out to distance, we might think that the bullets spin (rotation) would decrease, which in turn would cause it to destabilize and not spin concentric around its axis, or basically start to wobble or cavitate, which it does, to a point, which in turn causes a decrease in accuracy. Or does it affect accuracy at all? Or is that just a component of accuracy? Or is it a reliable and repeatable outcome? but I am skipping ahead of my theory, which I have tested enough to have advanced from hypothesis. ;)
Now as the bullet reaches its highest apex and starts its downward path, it does not act like a nicely thrown, spiral football where it spins and goes nose down. Quite opposite as the bullet acts like a lame duck football throw and the bullet stays nose up in its original path from the muzzle but starts losing altitude causing more of a flat cross section creating drag, which we know this to be true. This is where I continue to theorize.....As the bullet drops on its downward apex, the bullet loses rotational speed and with increased drag in theory causes wobble. Again in theory wobble causes diminished accuracy.
Now add these 2 theories together and on paper you have a recipe for diminished accuracy. Now how much accuracy are we really talking, out to say 1000 yards or so? Now if we have instability wreaking all kinds of havoc on accuracy, how do we fix it? Longer barrel? Faster twist rate? Now on paper and according to physics and calculations, these are the most reasonable assumptions.
How does that stack up in a real world shoot? This is what I find to hold true on the range. I find even out to around 1200y, which is well beyond the most commonly regarded effective range of the .308, that there is no notable decrease in accuracy that I can attribute to the rifle or the ammo, drag, wobble etc. I would have to blame any issues on outside factors, such as shooter, optics, mother nature etc...Quite honestly very very consistent hits are made at around 1K. So consistent in fact on my Tango that it almost becomes boring. As a matter of fact with the majority of hits, elevation tends to remain constant on a good called shot, but you get a more left to right variance in windage which you might expect and more contribute to cross winds. So accuracy remains even at 1K or the most common accepted outer limit of the .308 effective range.
What I theorize......I believe that for a good designed .308 round, good powder load, the bullet suffers little effect due to instability, wobble, cavitation, wind drag etc at 1K or even up to 1200y which may cause any effect, or loss in accuracy. This is in essence about the longest you really want to lob that projectile at a target anyway, unless if you are on a range just doing it for fun, which is always a good time. :)
So IMO, from what I have actually seen, I have no reason to believe that within 18" of barrel, you need to remotely be concerned about increasing twist rate on a barrel. Not saying you can't, but I see no reason to swap out a well performing barrel to a new one, just to gain rate of twist in hopes of increasing stability / accuracy at distance, or even going with a faster rate of twist at this length.
I will say I haven't done much shooting on shorter barrels than 18" besides on a few gas, semi .308's, but I never tested them out to these distances as mentioned by Iraqunz above. Most is well within 450 yards or so. Not saying it would hurt to go with more twist on this length at this distance, but I do not have enough real world experience to say one way or another. I can only give an opinion and take my own best educated guess from what I have seen and I would think that even without increasing twist on a 16" barrel, I am pretty confident that at the 800y effective range distances, maybe beyond, you will not see any ill effects on accuracy. Your overall distance achieved might decrease due to increased drag and a loss in muzzle velocity, however repeatable accuracy will probably remain. Again muzzle velocity and accuracy are not tied together as tightly as many might wish to believe. Definitely the bullet may, or will not travel as far, but I believe accuracy will remain given these specs.
Now here is a kicker that I believe to be true. Even with cavitation, wobble, drag etc, on a bullet, I believe we can still pretty accurately estimate or come to expect a high degree of repeatable performance for a bullet, if / when these weird things start happening. I believe the effects to be so calculated and repeatable to the degree, that we can accurately adjust, or reliably expect a certain outcome within effective ranges. I do not believe that from shot to shot, you will see different things happening or variances that cannot reasonably be accounted and adjusted for. So if we can reliably expect a certain impact or variance at distances, can't we just cite that as accuracy? After all isn't accuracy hitting your intended point of impact reliably?
Now don't go quoting me at some other websites related to long range shooting. They might have a cow as their numbers on paper won't match actual shooting data. But then again many of them may have never done the actual testing themselves. :D
Dirk Williams
05-16-10, 12:14
Surf, Ive read your last post 3 times to digest the info. First off thank you for taking the time to educate us with what you have learned "Real World".
I think it makes perfect sense and am going to build a `18 inch barreled rifle to play with. I have all the parts however the barrel is an old Remington "it's long on the tooth and might be nearing shot out point 8000/10000 rounds" I had changed out for a Krieger.
A question,
Does the above stated data work on other calibers'say 300WM and 7mm, .223, 260 etc, etc is it consistent across the caliber spectrum.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. It has meaning for me when you post your skills sets, and time in, and what you've learned by repetitive/hands on training.
Thank you Surf for sharing this info.
Respectfully,
Dirk Williams
Dirk,
I don't have as much practical or real world experience with cutting down barrels on larger caliber rifles. I do have my own personal 300wm that I have been wanting to chop down, however I just haven't got to it.
I will say that with a heavier bullet and depending on the powder type / load, you may very well need a bit more barrel length for a complete burn. Now how much is enough? Or a better question may be, at what distances are we talking about shooting? Since we can surmise that accuracy may remain intact very well out to the effective range of certain rounds capability, we may be more inclined to see a bullet not travel as far due to the decreased Muzzle Velocity. So if I were really only concerned about 1000y shots with a .300wm, well within its range, I am quite sure a short barrel, even without a complete powder burn would work very very well, while not sacrificing too much in regards to terminal ballistics. Now if we want to stretch the .300wm legs a bit further we may not want to go that short.
So basically, bullet design / type, combined with bullet weight and powder / load will be a good determining factor on barrel length. So I cannot reasonably give an across the board statement without actual testing. I will however say that the maker of our Tango51's has done this type of testing on a .300wm. His suggestions is to keep the length at around 22" of barrel, which will account for heavier bullets with a differing powder load. Again this is a happy medium to address a wider range of ammo / loads. Now I am quite sure with the correct ammo / load, it would be safe to go a bit shorter. Again this is just my calculated opinion, but I have not done the actual testing myself.
Let me know if you tackle this one on your own. I would be interested in hearing about the results. :)
Dirk Williams
05-18-10, 10:22
Surf. Being an old guy I also built my 300wm with a very long barrel for the same reasons I did my .308. Same with my 338lm.
I actually started to just cut my barrel on my 308 "My current shooter" and simply could not bring myself to put the blade to the barrel.
My 300wm has a 29/30 inch barrel on it and my 338lm has a 28 1/2 "I think" on it. All three are old school tack drivers.
Im off on 4850 time for at least several more weeks healing and will start the short barreled 308 project this next monday with a goal of having it done mid next month.
I do have a 7mm 770 Remington I could do but don't really have an interest in the 7mm mag with my other rifles done. Id rather load and shoot them then load less shot less to build this 7mm mag.
Surf thanks again. Id like to say that by talking openly like this everybody gets a chance to learn. It saddens me when people go off and PM when the lesson is most likely valid and an oppertunity for everybody to learn what's working and what's not working.
D Williams
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