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SuicideHz
04-14-07, 16:37
I can't find any reloading threads or any appropriate place for general reloading threads for that matter.

Can someone point me in the right direction?

I would like to start reloading.

I have 2 full ammo cans of .223 brass and I will also be loading 9mm subsonic for the SBR and beretta as well as 45 (or I may just trade .223 to a friend who loads 45.)

I'd like to hear what you guys prefer in the way of loaders and what you have to say about Lee presses- especially their turret presses. I am looking at a progressive 4 hole press at the very least. I may get the 5 hole Load-Master but really have no idea what the other differences may be.

I don't want to have to jump back on the computer and order more accessories the day I receive it because I didn't know what I was ordering.

Everyone on Glocktalk seems to recommend Dillon but at $300+ for a non-indexing press, I don't think I want to go there. Also it doesn't sound like there is an automatic case feeder either- something that requires a $110 upgrade to a 650 model and then an additional cost for the parts.

The Lee sounds like it offers quite a bit and that there is even more that can be added over time.

I appreciate any and all comment/guidance/help!

Thanks,

Joe

jmart
04-14-07, 17:19
I used a Lee 3-hole turret for years. It worked fine but it did take several tugs to produce a loaded round.

I now use a Dillon 550. Much better.

Loadmasters are bit hit and miss -- some guys swear by them, others swear at them. Dillon seems to have a better rep, they have a lifetime warranty and good customer service, but you pay for it.

Regardless of which press I've used, I batch process cases and have them all resized, trimmed and primed (using a Lee hand tool) by the time I get around to loading them. Typically I reserved my batch processing to the off season at which point I had a thousand or so cases ready to load. On the TP it was a simple proposition: charging, seating and crimping. It went reasonably quickly at that point, but I still had a decent amount of time already invested in all the earlier prep. But what else are you going to do on those cold winter days.

I still use my Lee disk powder measure and it works great for ball powder. I experimented with extruded and I needed to use the double disk kit along with a riser they make for the measure. This allows a enough drop velocity to fully charge the case with he thrown charge. Prior to using this, I would get powder bridging and some times powder would spill everywhere. That was a royal PITA.

You ought to think through how you plan to take care of trimming. Are you intending to use a power trimmer? Dillon vs Giraud? Or are you looking to use a lathe-type trimmer? Or the cheapie Lee (which works fine, it just chews up your fingers locking and unlocking cases in the knurled shellholder). If you go with a Dillon trimmer, set up a toolhead dedicated to sizing/trimming and set up the other dedicated to loading.

Assuming that you have some LC and Win brass, you'll have to remove the primer crimp. This is a "one-time" operation. You can either swage the pockets (Dillon, RCBS) or ream them (Hornady).

SuicideHz
04-14-07, 17:28
I just read the thread where you were given a lot of advice. How long ago was that? Was it all sound advice?

I think ALL of my two full cans of brass- probably over 2k rounds- is British Radway Green. There might be some strays or orphans from someone else at the range that I picked up but it's probably all surplus.

I don't know how I plan to trim.

I wouldn't mind running several hundred through a stage or two of the press just to deprime and size and then trim and deburr/chamfer in front of the television at a separate time. Obviously then there would only be the need for a few stages back at the press for the final touches.

But I will also be loading 9mm and plan on being able to do all of that fast...

jmart
04-14-07, 17:31
What thread was that?

SuicideHz
04-14-07, 17:51
crap. maybe you were the one giving advice...

I think that was it!

Barry in IN
04-14-07, 18:51
I've never owned a Lee, but I don't know anyone who has bought one and used it much without dumping it for something else. I understand about not having a ton of money to throw around, but I hate to see someone spend "almost enough", only to have to buy what they wanted later anyway.

One of the better bits of advice on reloading that I once overheard was:
"If you want to get frustrated with reloading- and fast- get a Lee. If you want to load ammo without jacking around, get a Dillon."

This summer will mark 15 years since I got my Dillon 550B. It's been a winner.
I was in Phoenix for training that summer and paid a visit to Dillon with the intent of getting some dies and maybe a Square Deal B. They had their presses setup in the showroom so you could play around with them. I eliminated the SDB quick, mostly because it used non-standard dies. I had been reloading for 11 years at that time and had a pretty good assortment of dies that I didn't want to replace/duplicate with SDB dies.

I ordered the 550B and had it sent home...and it beat me there. That was the beginning of great service from them.

I've broken a part once (my fault, while moving) and lost a couple (again, while moving). When I called Dillon for replacements, they sent them for free. In fact, with the parts I lost, I sorta argued with the guy over it before I realized it.
Me: "I need this part that I lost, number XXXX."
Dillon Guy: "OK, we'll get that right out. You said you broke it, right?"
Me: "I lost it."
Dillon Guy: "You broke it, right?"
Me: "No I...OK, I broke it."

And that's how they are.
I decided then that I should do my part to promote Dillon stuff.

No, it isn't perfect. There are things I'd like changed, like replacing one plastic part on the powder measure, but I don't know if it would be better. Fine-grained ball powders can get in the powder measure's sliding charge bar and make it bind (so I don't use those powders- no loss). But overall, the design still makes me sit back and marvel at the simplicity and execution.

I wouldn't worry about a case feeder. It's my opinion that you can go TOO fast. I load at a pace that gives me 100 rds in about 15 minutes (after doing a few items like filling the primer tube, adjusting and setting the powder measure, etc, that are mostly things that need only done once per batch). That is fast enough to kick out a fair amount of ammo in a short time, but slow enough that I can see into each case mouth to ensure it didn't get obviously too much or too little powder, the bullets get started straight into the case mouths, and things like that. Go much faster and there is too much jarring action going on, which can spill powder from cases.

Going too fast doesn't gain me much in the long run because I inevitably end up stopping and wasting time to clean up spilled powder, clear crushed cases, and the like. Like shooting- smooth is fast.
Feeding the cases and bullets in by hand helps to regulate my speed.

My feeling about case feeders on Lee presses is that it's just a gimmick.

Before the Dillon, I used an RCBS Rockchucker. I fought the urge to get a progressive because I didn't think they could make good enough ammo (I was shooting Highpower then, and did a lot of the benchrester's detailing to cases).
I need not have worried. It does fine.
And, if I want to do those things like use a uniforming tool on primer pockets after sizing, or weigh each powder charge on the electronic scale, I can still do that with the Dillon. It's still faster, even if I just use it to charge with powder and seat bullets.

SuicideHz
04-14-07, 19:02
400 rounds per hour is definitely fast enough!

I have seen some pages where people explain how they use the dillon to reload rifle ammo. It seems a little convoluted how they'll fill what appears to be a turntable with 4 dies and also have a tool-something filled with another 4 separate ones they use later for another step in the process.

RWBlue
04-14-07, 19:28
IMHO, buy yourself a RCBS rockchucker kit. Go slow. Learn what you are doing. And I would reccomend you start with the 9mm, and use RCBS carbide or hornady ti dies, this way you don't need to lube the 9mm brass.

Once you get going, with the 9mm, branch out into the 5.56.

Then and only then think about going progressive.

I have a Hornady progressive and a RCBS.
Hornady is OK at best. I have to be very careful or I screw up something.
I am finding I use the RCBS more and more.

SuicideHz
04-14-07, 20:57
I don't want to spend the money on a rockchucker only to have it sit there when i upgrade.

i know someone who loaded 1k of 45 through a rockchucker and says he'll never do it again.

jmart
04-15-07, 08:36
You can go with a 550 and run it as a turret press at first. Just run one case through all the operations until you get comfortable with everything, you don't have to run it in progressive mode.

You can't speed up a SS, it is what it is.

Barry in IN
04-15-07, 09:35
Yep, exactly.
There are a couple of ways (and probably dozens of variations) of loading on a 550 without doing it progressively. You can gather a pile of cases and do one procedure at-a-time untl you get it down (my suggestion); or you can do one case at a time through all the procedures.

(1)One procedure at-a-time:
-You can either choose one station on the press to do these items from and change dies after each operation; or, put all the dies in and do the operations at each particular station. I'd suggest the first option of having only one die in the machine at a time first.
-Gather about 50 cases to load, maybe a few more in case of loss (and you will have loss at first).
-Screw in a size die, and learn about sizing/depriming while you size all 50 or so cases.
-You can prime at that time, or after expanding. I would do it after expanding, in case you lose some cases expanding. No sense losing the primers also.
-Screw in the expander die (if pistol) and get that down by expanding them all.
-Charge the cases with powder. It's a good idea to have a loading block to put the cases in after charging, to keep them from being bumped and jarred and knocking powder out. They usually hold around 50 cases, which is why I chose that number of cases to start with.
-Seat bullets with the seating die.
-Crimp if needed or required according to what you are loading. I do seating and crimping seperate from each other. Although some do it together, it's not the best way.


(2)Or, you can run one case through at a time, with all the dies in place:
-Size/deprime/reprime it at the first station.
-Then move that case on to the expand and powder charge station and do that.
-Move it to the bullet seating station and seat a bullet.
-Move it to get crimped.

It's more or less the same as loading progressively, except you aren't feeding a new case in at each cycle. You are waiting until you finish loading a complete round before going on to another.

Before I got mine, I didn't know you could do one case at a time. I thought the powder measure might dump powder each time like the shotgun reloader I had, and require a case to be there to catch it. The Dillon doesn't work that way, as the powder measure is operated by a case pushing up on it when the handle is worked.

SuicideHz
04-15-07, 12:38
Thanks for more help guys.

I like the way the Dillon sounds but a Lee will do the same thing for me...

I really only thought I'd probably load those 2 ammo cans of .223 brass before the end of the summer. I don't see that as paying off the Dillon 550 press all by itself. That might be 2500 rounds of ammo when all is said and done. I may be able to reload it twice but until I do, I'm still probably not paying off that Dillon.

Hell, if it costs me 16 cents per round, I'm only saving 9 cents per round over the original cost of the Radway. I'll need to load 6111 rounds to pay off the Dillon.

I suppose if I start loading up some pseudo Mk262 then I'll make it up faster. But, for every 5 rounds of Mk262 I load I'll probably fire one and keep the others as part of my stash. That's 80% of my brass not coming back through the whole setup to help offset costs...

jmart
04-15-07, 13:11
The Lee 4 hole TP is a great press. It's gotten great reviews from everyone that's used it. I think it's a great choice for pistol calibers.

WRT to .223, assuming you are looking at cranking out several hundred cartridges/month, you still need to think about your processing. You'll have to trim cases every once in awhile, that's a fact of life. Normally you would trim after resizing, but to do this with a four hole TP is a PITA. It breaks up the rhythm -- resize, remove case and trim/chamfer/debur, reinsert case and continue on with charging, seating and crimping. The alternative is to trim first and just accept that as cases stretch during resizing, they'll still be under max length (that's a reasonable assumption). Still, you'll end up with slight case length variations with this approach -- not a big issue but just be aware of it.

That's why I batch process my cases and have all my resizing, trimming and priming done before I get around to loading them up. If you go this route then the 4th hole is just an extra tug on the handle where nothing is happening.

It's all about production, getting to load as much as possible in a reasonable amount of time. My guess is if you do all of your trimming first, and then use the 4-hole to resize, charge, seat and crimp, you'll end up at maybe 200-250 rounds/hr. Also note that you'll need to tumble your loaded runds to remove the lube.

For pistol, this is all a moot point. Pistol cases don't really stretch during resizing so the 4-holer makes perfect sense. It's just that with the methods I've adopted over time, the 4-holer doesn't make much sense to me for loading .223. That's not to say I'm right and you're wrong, all I'm saying is think through how you envision handling the case prep work and then decide accordingly.

Regardless of which way you go, IMHO the next biggest expense could end up being your trimming setup. You can go:

(1) cheap (Lee -- effective but slow, $12, use with a drill press or an electric drill),

(2) middle of the road (Dillon -- effective and quick, but unsuitable for a rotating turret head (you'd have to disable the auto-indexer and batch process your cases like I described above, then erassemble for when you laoded your preped cartridges), $250 for timmer and trim die), or

(3) high end (Giraud -- Cadillac, mounted off the press, $350, trims/chamfers/deburs all in one step).

I guess what I'm saying in the end, the press you choose is but one element of the whole setup, and in that light just about any press will do. What I've learned though the years is bottle-necked rifle cartridges demand more case prep, and equipment selection on how you handle case prep will have a big impact on your "output vs time" ratio which directly impacts whether or not you end up finding reloading enjoyable vs a royal PITA at which point you just quit.

SuicideHz
04-15-07, 13:19
well now it sounds like the 3 hole press is the right way to go- enough die positions for pistol rounds (right? or will i want to crimp 9mm?) and enough for my rifle rounds because I won't be able to put them through 4 stages anyway-

The lee 3 and 4 hole presses i've looked at have a feature to disable the progressive portion so you can do single stage. I would imagine it's EXACTLY that way for the .223 and resizing- I wouldn't mind doing the sizing and depriming, trimming and then sending the brass to my friend to clean and polish and then at a later date just loading it all.

Why does it cost so much to trim? doesn't someone make something that you insert the brass into, turn a crank and it passes a cutter around the neck to trim by hand?

But I could take dirty fired rounds and do the trimming first huh? I'll also have to remove the damn primer crimp. But that will all probably be done once in the next 4 reloads and then they are tossed, right?

jmart
04-15-07, 13:56
well now it sounds like the 3 hole press is the right way to go- enough die positions for pistol rounds (right? or will I want to crimp 9mm?) and enough for my rifle rounds because I won't be able to put them through 4 stages anyway-

I like to crimp separately from seating, so pistol rounds do need four stations. But if you batch process your pistol rounds first (resize and prime), then you canget by with a 3-headed TP.


The Lee 3 and 4 hole presses I've looked at have a feature to disable the progressive portion so you can do single stage. I would imagine it's EXACTLY that way for the .223 and resizing - I wouldn't mind doing the sizing and depriming, trimming and then sending the brass to my friend to clean and polish and then at a later date just loading it all.

I used the original 3-hole TP because that's all that was available at the time I started out almost 20 years ago. The auto-index mechanism is a bit tempermental to get adjusted just right so after awhile I just removed it and I rotated the turret head by hand. The idea of having to disable it for batch mode, then reinstalling it for auto-indexing TP mode was just a PITA. I've heard the auto-indexing mechanism on the new 4-hole models is much better in this regard so maybe it's not that big of a hassle, but if you go this route you still have an unused head. My idea of perfection would be a 3-headed model that allowed for easy conversion between SS batch mode and auto-indexing TP mode. But that doesn't exist.


Why does it cost so much to trim? Doesn't someone make something that you insert the brass into, turn a crank and it passes a cutter around the neck to trim by hand?

Cost is directly proportional to ease of use and quickness. The high end stuff is all electric motor driven. You can trim cases in seconds with these. The manual trimmers are much slower, plus you have to debur and chamfer afterwards. Their are lathe-type cranks, but they run $40-50 and I saw no advantage to them over the cheaper $12 Lee. In my way of thinking, either go cheap and accept the slow nature of the beast or shell out a couple hundred bucks and pay for convenience.

Since I've reloaded for approx 20 years, I fully amortized my initial purchase long ago so when I went with the Dillon trimmer it wasn't that big of a shell shock regarding cash outlay. But I admit, if you were looking at outfitting yourself with a 550, plus dies, plus trimmer motor and trim die, you'd spend over $600 getting equipped in that manner and that's a significant outlay. Add on the niceties (elevated strong mount, trays and such) and you're talking another $100.


But I could take dirty fired rounds and do the trimming first huh? I'll also have to remove the damn primer crimp. But that will all probably be done once in the next 4 reloads and then they are tossed, right?

Yes, you could trim before reloading. But you won't be able to swage/ream the pockets until after you've deprimed so you're back to situation where you're having to remove a case after resizing/depriming to service the pocket. The alternative is to use a dedicated deprimer prior to reloading so that by the time you get around to loading you aren't impacting your rythm.

Submariner
04-15-07, 15:41
I used a Lee 3-hole turret for years. It worked fine but it did take several tugs to produce a loaded round.

I now use a Dillon 550. Much better.
...
You ought to think through how you plan to take care of trimming. Are you intending to use a power trimmer? Dillon vs Giraud? Or are you looking to use a lathe-type trimmer? Or the cheapie Lee (which works fine, it just chews up your fingers locking and unlocking cases in the knurled shellholder). If you go with a Dillon trimmer, set up a toolhead dedicated to sizing/trimming and set up the other dedicated to loading.
...
I guess what I'm saying in the end, the press you choose is but one element of the whole setup, and in that light just about any press will do. What I've learned though the years is bottle-necked rifle cartridges demand more case prep, and equipment selection on how you handle case prep will have a big impact on your "output vs time" ratio which directly impacts whether or not you end up finding reloading enjoyable vs a royal PITA at which point you just quit.


Your plan for processing the brass is the key to your success. If it is such a PITA to prepare the brass, you will never get to the reloading part. It will not matter which press you buy.

I like the separate toolhead for resizing and trimming. I might buy a Giraud trimmer if I were starting over but the Dillon was available back in '93. Earpro is mandatory for the Dillon.

You could also sell the brass on ebay and use proceeds plus some cash to buy already processed brass. Or send them to a processor. If, however, you end up loading a lot, it's cheaper to have the tools. Dillon's gear retains its resale value due to his 100% no BS guarantee. Things are generally easy to get into; Dillon makes it easy to get out of without losing much money.

Recently picked up an RCBS priming tool cheaply. We'll see how it compares to using the primer tubes.

SuicideHz
04-18-07, 17:38
So if I buy this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180105530066&rd=1&rd=1

http://i15.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/97/f1/b57f_1.JPG

http://i5.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/97/f1/b217_1.JPG

I will then buy some sort of attachment where the tool head goes that does all of the trimming and other steps like chamfering?

The toolhead is the same as Lee's removable die holder? The Lee one, I believe, is dropped in and twisted into place. The Dillon appears to slide in but still has 4 spots for tools.

Looking at that auction, what else will I need to do 9mm besides a 9mm die set?

Then what for .223 after a die set?

Trimming tools of some sort I take it.

SuicideHz
04-21-07, 18:21
Scratch that idea. Looks like I'm going with a Lee Deluxe 4 hole turret press with auto indexing, the Safety Auto Prime system with large and small feeders, Auto Disk Update Kit and a few other small items.

I'll have to insert cases by hand but I think I can handle it for now and I think I can add a case feeder later if I have to.

I'm ordering 4-die sets in 9mm and 45 from Lee that include Carbide Dies and the factory crimp die.

jmart
04-21-07, 18:58
Congratulations on getting into reloading, way to go.



I'll recommend three things:

(1) You'll probably need a double disk kit to load .223 cartrdiges. The stock disk sizes run out of capacity, especially if you load extruded powders (Varget, RL15, H4895). They can work with ball, but it's right at the edge of capacity. The double disk kit gives you options to throw heavier charges.

(2) Get the adjustable charge bar. It will give you better charge control for your pistol charges. The steps between the fixed cavities provide around .3g jumps between cavities, the adj charge bar lets you go up or down .1g at a time. It's not a necessity but it does give you greater control.

(3) For now, just go with the Lee case trimmer setup for your .223 cases. It's slow but it's effective. Then save up your pennies for a Giraud or Gracey. They will allow you to process cases in volume batches.

Just so you know, the Lee TP doesn't accept any kind of case feeder, you'll have to insert them by hand but that's not a big deal. Your Lee dies will work fine. You realize you'll have to lube the .223 cases, either use a spray lube (Hornady, Dillon, Lee dilluted with 91% alcohol) or Imperial wax, applied by fingers.

SuicideHz
04-21-07, 19:07
Sorry, I forgot to mention I'm giving up on .223 right now. I will just save brass for another two months or 800 rounds, whichever comes sooner.

The powder upgrade kit comes with that adjustable powder thrower insert as opposed to using disks.

jmart
04-21-07, 19:11
Then you are GTG.