View Full Version : Stock trigger, trigger job or aftermarket drop in on defensive/duty rifle?
Lucky Strike
03-02-10, 14:42
Pretty much done putting together my home defense/EOTWAWKI rifle. This is also the rifle that I will be using for any carbine course I take (planning on doing 1 a year...my first one is scheduled for June).
I've got a DPMS trigger group in there now.....went with the DPMS because it was the only one that would work with my .22lr upper that I bought for cheap training. The trigger is heavy but the break is clean and the reset is positive.
I've got a bill springfield 3lb trigger on another rifle that I use for benchrest style shooting but it seems too light for a defensive gun (plus it won't work with the .22 upper)
Just wondering what you guys are running for your triggers on your duty/defensive rifles and why you decided on what you did.
obviously reliability is my main concern
I just use the stock trigger that came on my Stag and have smoothed it out with several thousand rounds and a lot of dry fire. I wouldn't be surprised if I've pulled that trigger over 10,000 times. Still goes bang and I have never had a malfunction in my rifle. Well I have had one but that was when shooting with a mag-well hold around a simulated weak side corner with my thumb blocking the dust cover from opening. Now I simply do not close it unless its in the safe and haven't had a problem since. Also, I perform regular PMCS and have recently replaced all springs. Didn't have a problem with light strikes or weak buffer spring or anything, just better safe than sorry. My other AR's which have since been sold, also used the stock type triggers with never an issue attributed to the FCG. Thinking back the only times my AR's have ever failed on me is when the dust cover was held down by something keeping it from opening. Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud here. I have no experience with any other trigger other that the stock style ones, and the 3-round burst unit on the M16A2's I was issued when I was in the Army so I can't comment on the other types.
you can shoot the hell out of it or take some metal polish and accelerate the process. i use RRA trigger because i get em cheap and there all hand fit and work good.
I think most will recommend a stock trigger on a duty gun.
However, I'm currently running a Geissele SSA. I just shoot so much better with a "match" trigger.
Previously I used an Accuracy Speaks, but had one break after several thousand rounds, which is of course why a stock trigger is recommended.
SWATcop556
03-02-10, 18:01
Stock trigger for all of my social guns.
No "trigger jobs" for a duty/defensive carbine. I've seen too many crap the bed. My work guns all have factory triggers. Geissele SSA would be about the only aftermarket trigger I would use for duty use right now. The Wilson Combat triggers look promising, but are spendy.
My duty rifle has a Geissele SSA installed.
Lucky Strike
03-02-10, 20:10
What's the weight on the Geiselle SSA?
You guys running them have not had any issues?
The SSA is probably the best hard use 2-stage on the market. I know "best" is subjective but it's a proven trigger. I've yet to read something bad about it. Most of the time guys will bitch and moan because it doesn't feel like a match grade trigger. This is a combat/duty trigger. I haven't had any problems out of mine.
While I don't have a calibrated finger to give a rough estimate on weight or a real scale to use, one vendor says approx 2.5# on the first stage and roughly 5# on the second. I can tell you though it feels much lighter than that.
You can set up the stages or pull right through to give it a one stage feel.
I run a stock DPMS trigger on my DPMS lower/ BCM upper. I do so because I do not want to have to defend myself or my set-up if anything would go south. All of my gear is factory built. Theres no room for anyone to point to the fact that It wasn't assembled according to manufacturer and a whole slew of legalities. To my knowledge DPMS lower parts are used in a variety of commerical LPK's. I remember reading Spikes uses DPMS in their lowers. With that being said I would love to try an SSA on a non-duty rifle:D
Lucky Strike
03-02-10, 22:52
Thanks for the replies....just ordered an SSA
My main concern was that the trigger be reliable. Didn't matter how great if felt if it was going to crap out after 2k rounds. After reading more about the SSA and that it's been proven to be combat reliable made me feel comfortable ordering one.
Belmont31R
03-02-10, 23:01
I used to be a USGI trigger only type of guy until I tried an SSA, and now they are a priority for all of my guns.
I have a couple over 4k rounds each, another just installed last month with just over 1k already, and no issues so far. They shoot so much better than a stock trigger.
I have also yet to hear of one breaking.
Unlike many other 2-stage's they are designed as a duty/combat trigger. They are not adjustable so no worries about any screws coming loose on you. I have found them to be very reliable, and as I said I've yet to hear of one going TU on someone. There are lot of them out there, too. I waited a good year to get feedback before I got the 1st one.
What are the differences between a stock trigger and an SSA? Just the pull weights?
My department authorizes no alteration of the trigger, so my choice is an easy one. :(
I heard the Bill Springfeilds are nice, maybe a 4lb? I really like my Chip McCormick...it is very slick and breaks at 4.5lbs. Its not too light but its heavy enough for duty work IMHO.
Zero issues with most stock triggers. Duty weapons are Colt and no issues with their stock triggers on a duty carbine.
I know this may hurt and many may defend the SSA, however even though I own an SSA and a few excellent match triggers, IMO the SSA trigger is not the sliced bread that most talk about over a stock trigger for a combat or duty trigger. They are very good triggers and I like gadgets, but for me personally, I find very little to no added benefit to the SSA over a stock trigger, especially when factoring in cost. Definitely a luxury item. If you've done everything else and have the money to spend then go for it. I would rather keep a stock trigger and put that money into another weapon. :)
Not an M4 expert...but... Why would you want a stock trigger that is long heavy & creepy (mine was) when you could have a combat proven crisp "professional" feeling trigger like the Geissele SSA that allows you to shoot better? I love my Geissele. I would like to try the Wilson some day.
I carried an FN-FAL for work and the Geissele SSA closely parallels my FAL trigger. It isn't necessary to have a NYPD Glock trigger in a social rifle if you are trained properly. IMHO:)
Chris Rhines
03-03-10, 05:55
Odd man out, here. I have JP 4# triggers in all of my ARs, competition and defensive. In five years of shooting 3-4k rounds/year, I've never had a malfunction that could be traced back to the trigger group.
-C
Not an M4 expert...but... Why would you want a stock trigger that is long heavy & creepy (mine was) when you could have a combat proven crisp "professional" feeling trigger like the Geissele SSA that allows you to shoot better? I love my Geissele. I would like to try the Wilson some day.
I carried an FN-FAL for work and the Geissele SSA closely parallels my FAL trigger. It isn't necessary to have a NYPD Glock trigger in a social rifle if you are trained properly. IMHO:)
IMHO the same could be said the other way around. With proper training the stock single-stage trigger is more than adequate. I've only had experience with 5 AR's all equipped with combat proven stock triggers and I can say any missed shot was because of me not applying the fundamentals of marksmanship and not my long, heavy, creepy trigger. Actually I don't know where you get 'long' from as all the ones I've used have actually had pretty short travel compared to most other military type rifles. Heavy I suppose I'll give you that. Depends on what you are used to using I guess. Creepy, well that will get better with lots of dry firing and range time. Or you could speed up the process with a little polish. I would compare it more to a 1911 with around a 7lb. pull than a NYPD Glock trigger. I've never dropped the hammer on a Geissele SSA but would welcome the opportunity. Just can't see spending that much when stock more than meets my needs. Maybe I'll change my tune if I ever get to try one but we'll see.
The SSA is a non-adjustable combat trigger not a match trigger. If you want the latter then buy one but don't assume that the SSA will fit that bill.
Mil-Spec triggers work just fine just like iron sights do on a carbine. The SSA is a definite improvement on a fighting carbine just like the RDS is over iron sights.
IMHO the same could be said the other way around. With proper training the stock single-stage trigger is more than adequate. I've only had experience with 5 AR's all equipped with combat proven stock triggers and I can say any missed shot was because of me not applying the fundamentals of marksmanship and not my long, heavy, creepy trigger. Actually I don't know where you get 'long' from as all the ones I've used have actually had pretty short travel compared to most other military type rifles. Heavy I suppose I'll give you that. Depends on what you are used to using I guess. Creepy, well that will get better with lots of dry firing and range time. Or you could speed up the process with a little polish. I would compare it more to a 1911 with around a 7lb. pull than a NYPD Glock trigger. I've never dropped the hammer on a Geissele SSA but would welcome the opportunity. Just can't see spending that much when stock more than meets my needs. Maybe I'll change my tune if I ever get to try one but we'll see.
For the most part I do completely agree with you and wasn't saying it is impossible to shoot a stock trigger well. A couple thousand pulls later my stock trigger still had 3 creepy spots that would screw "ME" up on shots between 2-425 yds. I find that the SSA is more familiar to me and increases "MY" speed and accuracy past 200 yds. Others mileage may vary, but I trust the trigger and I shoot better with it, so it makes me very happy. I just feel that trickle down technology is important to increase the quality of our kit and we should not limit ourselves to status quo gear and be open to new and "potentially" better kit. I feel that the SSA for some fits this criteria, tho should never be considered a substitute for good training and fundamentals as you have stated :)
I also agree with you for the most part. My post may have come across as a little harsh and I apologize. Just for a duty/defensive rifle, I don't see many instances where a 200-425 yard shot is justifiable. I'm sure it also helps you more up close and I agree one should use the equipment which gives them the most confidence in their platform. I suppose I always look at things from a tight budget standpoint as that is the situation I find myself in. I've noticed a trend where several purchase a bone stock Colt, LMT, or what have you and end up sinking several hundred dollars in upgrades before even familiarizing themselves with it in stock form. I include myself in this category as I have several upgrades I wish I would have put towards more ammo or training.
I suppose my best advice to the OP would be to put lots of ammo downrange with what you already have and then see what you notice as shortcomings that could be improved upon. M4Fundi sounds like he noticed one of those shortcomings and is more than pleased with his upgrade and I think that is one of the greatest things about the AR-platform. Pretty much every part on or in the rifle is made by many different manufacturers in such a way that the perfect rifle that fits you is possible to build. Its one of the few rifles you can adapt to you versus being stuck with what you have and adapting to the rifle.
I'm totally with you. I've seen custom triggers on other guns over the years fail.
The crowd I used to work with could have accidently broken an anvil:eek:
It took me a loooooong time to get my mind wrapped around using a battery operated sight (Aimpoint) I was a "trust" irons only guy. If I wasn't curse-eye dominant I probably would never have even tried an Aimpoint and I had to go thru 2 Reflex (no batteries) sights first. I forced myself to shoot 3Gun with irons for a year before going to my Aimpoint on my N4 to make certain I did not become too dependent on it. There is something to be said for KISS.
4lb Timney Trigger on my duty rifle. Its not too light and it breaks very crisp. I love it, but thats just me. If you go with a after market trigger I wouldnt go with anything less then 4lbs
Belmont31R
03-04-10, 16:56
I should remind people who think a 2 stage is automatically unreliable for duty use the last 2 general issue combat rifles in the US military had 2 stage triggers. The M1 Garand, and the M14.
Some M16 varients in use today by the military have 2 stage triggers.
The main issue is that there are a lot of aftermarket trigger's out there, and some are meant for shooting matches on a range, some are crappy, and very few are actually meant to be used in a duty/combat gun. If you read enough reports from people almost every single 2 stage trigger failure is due to crap parts to begin with, or people putting fragile competition/match triggers in their AR, and wonder why it fails.
The SSA fits into the 3rd category of being a duty/combat trigger so its not going to feel as nice as a dedicated comp/match trigger. Its not supposed to, and it is a huge improvement in feel over your average stock trigger. Speaking of stock triggers some do feel ok. The one I have from LMT feels pretty good. I have had other ones that had very heavy pulls, and felt like crap. Its a huge hindrance on making accurate shots to have to battle a heavy gritty trigger. Its hard to shoot quickly with a crappy reset and heavy pull.
If you can't change out the trigger you can at least polish the engagement surfaces. Every USGI type trigger I have seen is full of machine marks. It does help to get it shiny smooth. You are not altering the angle or how the trigger works.
Lucky Strike
03-09-10, 15:15
Just installed a Geissele in my lower last night....great trigger (comparable to my BS tuned 3lb one) and good peace of mind knowing how durable the thing is.
After my first range trip, I changed out the factory trigger spring group. Installing JP yellow springs, made a big improvement. While it still has a lot of travel, the over all feel and control is much improved.
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