View Full Version : What to do for a new duty pistol?
I'm enrolling in a civilian run police academy to get my Basic Peace Officer Certification, more then likely I'll get a job for a small PD or one of the SOs out here. I'm not at all going to be suppressed if I have to purchase my own weapon. My question is what would be a good weapon. I like my mom's Springfield Loaded 1911, but I know 1911s need a good break in before they are reliable enough to be carried.
In Magpul's new pistol training DVD, Travis Haley mentioned that if he walked into a room and there were 2 pistols on he table, neither of them his. One a cleaned up trick out 1911 and the other a well used striker fired pistol, he said he would pick the striker fired pistol because he knows there is a lot better chance of it working.
I understand what he is saying and it would lead me to believe a Glock 22 police trade in would be my best bet for a good pistol that I can trust with my life. Of course after putting a few rounds down range with it myself, testing the brand and kind of ammo I'd carry for duty to make sure they work.
And I would probably have the Glock trade in send to Bowie Tactical and have him install a Ghost 5lb trigger bar and polish the internals for me. A friend of mine is a competition shooter and absolutely loves Glocks and swears by Ghost triggers.
Finally I'd get a Springfield 1911, shot it in my free time to break it in and once reliable I'd retire my Glock and carry the 1911.
Does that sound like a good plan? Any suggestions? A brand new S&W M&P with a good sear and a trigger job good enough? Brand new Glock with the mentioned above work by Bowie just as reliable as a used Glock? What do you guys think? Thank you all very much for your time.
I'm enrolling in a civilian run police academy to get my Basic Peace Officer Certification, more then likely I'll get a job for a small PD or one of the SOs out here. I'm not at all going to be suppressed if I have to purchase my own weapon. My question is what would be a good weapon. I like my mom's Springfield Loaded 1911, but I know 1911s need a good break in before they are reliable enough to be carried.
In Magpul's new pistol training DVD, Travis Haley mentioned that if he walked into a room and there were 2 pistols on he table, neither of them his. One a cleaned up trick out 1911 and the other a well used striker fired pistol, he said he would pick the striker fired pistol because he knows there is a lot better chance of it working.
I understand what he is saying and it would lead me to believe a Glock 22 police trade in would be my best bet for a good pistol that I can trust with my life. Of course after putting a few rounds down range with it myself, testing the brand and kind of ammo I'd carry for duty to make sure they work.
And I would probably have the Glock trade in send to Bowie Tactical and have him install a Ghost 5lb trigger bar and polish the internals for me. A friend of mine is a competition shooter and absolutely loves Glocks and swears by Ghost triggers.
Finally I'd get a Springfield 1911, shot it in my free time to break it in and once reliable I'd retire my Glock and carry the 1911.
Does that sound like a good plan? Any suggestions? A brand new S&W M&P with a good sear and a trigger job good enough? Brand new Glock with the mentioned above work by Bowie just as reliable as a used Glock? What do you guys think? Thank you all very much for your time.
You should probably wait until you get on a certain department before you buy. Many have limitation as to what you can carry (make, caliber etc.) and most will not allow trigger jobs. With that being said the M&P as well as the glock are excellent choices, the only good thing about going with glock is you will be able to pick from a variety of different gear from many manufacturers. I am convinced that when the world ends the only thing left will be cockroaches and glock parts.
Very true, and you are right about me waiting, I understand the importance and what not. I could probably find out which department allows what, and is probably something I will do before buying. I'm not looking to get a pistol right away I just want to do my research so when the time comes to buy I will already be well informed and as close to a subject matter expert as I can be so I can make a smart decision.
Alpha Sierra
03-03-10, 18:51
Buy a used Glock 17, S&W M&P9, or 9 mm SIG P226.
All are proven. Training ammo is cheaper. Capacity is higher. Modern hollowpoints negate the larger calibers' "advantages".
Then re-evaluate your needs after you get a job. In all likelyhood, you will be able to swing right to work with one of the original three on the list anyway.
Being a 1911 fan, I would get one just to have one, but I doubt the department would let you carry it.
I prefer the S&W MP40 between the other two. Something in .40 is probably your best bet since that is the most common round used now by LE.
I recommend getting what you want and becoming proficient with it. The department may have a list of weapons you can choice from, so you might be out of luck with any of them and if that is the case buy another and learn to use it.
500 rounds is my minimum for breakin of any gun to make sure I can trust my life to it.
i prefer the stock glock trigger to the stock M&P trigger. with the apex sear the M&P is a much closer second.
i pull a glock trigger about 10,000 times a year though, so i am biased.
you're going to have your hands full with police academy anyway, better off avoiding the 1911 for now. you just need something that works.
For right now don't worry about buying stuff. Just worry about getting through the academy and getting hired.
For the short-term if the academy provides you a firearm to use (most do and I'd be shocked if they don't) then just use that. If for some odd reason they do not provide you a firearm just buy a low priced quality 9mm like a Glock or S&W M&P. Don't modify it or make any changes beyond night sights.
Once you finish the academy and get hired the department will dictate what gun you carry. It's not even worth thinking about right now. Many departments require you to carry their issued gun while some let you pick a gun from a list of approved models. Probably about 90% of departments don't let you carry a duty gun with any type of modications to it beyond changing the sights.
You're probably better off waiting until you finish FTO to even start to worry about buying your own duty gun.
rugbymike--you are making numerous poor assumptions.
"I understand what he is saying and it would lead me to believe a Glock 22 police trade in would be my best bet for a good pistol that I can trust with my life."
Before getting a used 3rd gen G22, you might wish to read about some of the issues they have had in LE use:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/481101302/p/1
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=63496&page=&fpart=1&vc=1
"And I would probably have the Glock trade in send to Bowie Tactical and have him install a Ghost 5lb trigger bar and polish the internals for me."
You would likely be wasting your funds, as numerous agencies will not authorize such a set-up.
"Finally I'd get a Springfield 1911, shot it in my free time to break it in and once reliable I'd retire my Glock and carry the 1911."
Sounds like you need a LOT more training before contemplating such a move. Instead of wasting money on equipment, why not work on developing a warrior mindset? The MOST important thing you need now is training and more experience--Magpul Dynamics, EAG, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, Pistoltraining.com, ITTS, TigerSwan, etc... have all offered superb instruction for officers at our agency––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them.
If you are smart, you will do EXACTLY what kaltblitz has stated.
I was in the same boat you were a couple years ago. I was hired on and my department does not issue any equipment so I had the freedom to purchase whatever I wanted. Up to that point the only gun I ever owned was a H&k USP40. I had trained in the academy with a glock 17. I went out and bought a H&K P30 and went through approx. 500 rounds and qualified with it. After having numerous problems with my p30 I went and bought myself a glock and never looked back. My advice if the academy loans you a gun, use it. I should've stuck with what I was trained on instead of going and buying a $900 pistol.
DOC, none of your links are working. I currently carry a gen3 g22 with the blackhawk light/holster combo. No malfunctions yet but I would like to read what you have to offer.
Also +1 to kaltblitz, Sights and grips are the ONLY things you should change on a duty gun IMO.
rugbymike--you are making numerous poor assumptions.
Before getting a used 3rd gen G22, you might wish to read about some of the issues they have had in LE use:
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a.../481101302/p/1
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...=&fpart=1&vc=1
You would likely be wasting your funds, as numerous agencies will not authorize such a set-up.
Sounds like you need a LOT more training before contemplating such a move. Instead of wasting money on equipment, why not work on developing a warrior mindset? The MOST important thing you need now is training and more experience--Magpul Dynamics, EAG, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, Pistoltraining.com, ITTS, TigerSwan, etc... have all offered superb instruction for officers at our agency––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them.
If you are smart, you will do EXACTLY what kaltblitz has stated.
Excellent advise as usual. I would also encourage you to spend most of your budget on training. Dont be gun of the month guy. Too many people (LE and non LE) collect a pile of guns and never spend the effort/$ learning to use them. I have nothing against collecting. If you are interested in becoming a cop your gun is a tool. Buy one that puts a bullet out the front every time. Train
First, you need to think about how much experience you have with handgun shooting. To start as a novice shooter with a 1911 is training scar heaven. I suggest a good 9mm pistol like the Glock 17, an older Sig 226 and an M&P 9.
Second, Don't polish, upgrade from stock or modify any duty weapon....Period! You open yourself up for civil liability.
Third, big guns and calibers are not all they are hyped up to be. If you can't control it then you are not combat effective. I just completed a class with an instructor from the Austen Tx area and he said that the department he works for switched from their .40s or 45s (can't recall which) to Glock 17 9mm and 100% of their officer involved shootings ended with the officer alive and the bad guy dead. I carry a Glock 22 on duty and it works flawlessly but when I train hard, I use my Glock 19 as my secondary and I have better shot placement and quicker follow up shots. Faster combat accuracy is much more important than a big bullet any day in my opinion.
Good luck with your career choices.
Absolutely right, I am operating on a good number of assumptions. That is why I asked for advice. I understand the importance of training, but I do need a firearm for it. Would a Glock 22 police trade in from gunbroker.com for 350 and change plus shipping and handling be appropriate for a training weapon till I find a job and get hired on with a department?
(Good sights and no other modifications)
I would suggest hold off buying anything used off of gunbroker. You dont know what that particular gun has been through. Once you complete your training and find a commission you will be eligible for a "blue label" (LEO only) glock for example. Depending on your location they can be found anywhere from $400-475.This shop is located in Columbus, OH
http://www.vancesle.com/category.cfm/CurrentPage/1/le/firearms-pistols
Your duty weapon is something you don't want to "bargain" shop for.
Very good point, thank you.
tracker722
03-03-10, 22:55
******
Oh no worries, I thank you all very much for your advice.
If you are dead set on a .40s&w pistol, I recommend the M&P40 or the newer Gen4 Glock 22. Glock appears to have addressed the issues that many PD's were having with their Gen3 G22's, even though Glock still hasnt admitted to there actually being an issue with running weapon mounted lights on Gen3 G22's:rolleyes:.
And if you choose the M&P40, make sure you get the most recent production pistol you can get your hands on (Check the yellow test fire envelope for the test date). Many dealers will sell you what they have in "old-stock" before they sell you what they just got in, unless you ask.
Nothing wrong with a 9mm (G17 or M&P9) either. Dont let the whole "stopping power", ".45 acp is a Man's caliber", etc. mis-information cloud your decision. I have been a street cop for nearly 15 years. I started with a .45, and I now carry a M&P9 (9mm). Why? Because I shoot the 9mm M&P faster and more accurately than any other pistol design, caliber, etc. that I have ever carried/owned.
A single action 1911 would be my last choice in a duty pistol, unless I was a 1911 armorer, or had a competent 1911 smith/armorer living in my basement.;)
NinjaTactics
03-04-10, 03:58
@Rugbymike: do you know what cities or towns' police departments you'll have a good shot at getting a job in? If you do, really try to do your homework to find out exactly what duty guns they are issued. For example:
City A: Glock 22
City B: Glock 22
City C: M&P40
If you find that most of the cities are issuing Glock 22's (40S&W), you'd probably be better served just buying a new Gen4 Glock 23 to train with and get used to. This is a slightly more compact gun that will provide you with the same caliber that you will potentially use on your duty gun, and then you will have your personal Glock 23 (or Glock 27 subcompact) as a backup to your primary carry gun (Glock 22, if that is indeed the case) issued by the department. If you are proficient with the G23 (or G27 if you want to go even smaller) this will easily translate to the G22. This will allow you:
1) use of same ammo
2) use of same mags
3) use of similar holsters
These are very good bonuses to have with your backup gun, as you don't have to worry about carrying two types of ammo, different mags, etc. If your primary jams up or has a problem that isn't easily corrected in 2-5 seconds, BAM - you transition to the backup with ease.
The difference in price between a used Glock and a new Gen4 with good pricing is probably only about $100-125 or so. To me it makes more sense to buy new if that is the case, as there is less chance of defect and you'll be able to reliably shoot using the given barrel for X amount of additional rounds (where X is the number previously fired through in a used gun).
Buy a G19 from a known-good source or have it inspected by an armorer. A G19 will make an excellent CCW piece, is popular in LE, and will hold resale value if you don't want it anymore.
Whatever your choice, I would pass on most aftermarket "improvements" until you have bona fide training and experience in the platform you've chosen. Few "improvements" will be authorized by agencies anyway.
GermanSynergy
03-04-10, 14:52
Very hard to go wrong with a Glock 17.
If you absolutely positively must go out and buy your own gun to go through the academy (still find it hard to believe) I will make this recommendation to you...
Go buy either a Glock 17/19 or a S&W M&P 9mm new in the box. My own choice would be the 19 as I find it easier to conceal and I like carrying the same gun all the time if I can. Slap a set of nightsights on it (if it doesn't come with them) and call it a day.
Why 9mm? Because it is generally easier and cheaper to shoot than 40 S&W and you loose very very little in terms of ballistic performance. Being cheaper means you can practice more which means you will ultimatley be more proficient (so long as you practice solid methods).
If you must have a 40 S&W then go with the M&P. I was an armorer at a Glock 22 agency and have owned three of them in the past (note I said "past") myself. There are well documented issues with that particular Glock model. I'm currently issued a S&W M&P 40 and think it's a great gun (just went through the armorers class with DocGKR in fact).
Ultimately you're going to do what you want, but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth ;)
If you absolutely positively must go out and buy your own gun to go through the academy (still find it hard to believe) I will make this recommendation to you...
I had to provide my own weapon for my academy.
If you absolutely positively must go out and buy your own gun to go through the academy (still find it hard to believe)
That's not uncommon.
John_Wayne777
03-05-10, 07:11
I had to provide my own weapon for my academy.
...then take a look at what possible hiring agencies issue/allow and let us know what's on the list. If potential hiring agencies will allow a 9mm Glock, that's a simple answer. If they will allow 9mm Glocks but won't pay for anything but .40 ammo, look at good .40's like the M&P or the Sig P229, etc.
I'm sorry you guys had to pay for your own stuff. In my opinion that's pretty sad that they make you do that. Generally the academies around here (Northern CA) get the local agencies' old equipment to use (guns, belts, batons, vests, cars, etc). That stuff usually gets auctioned off, sold for little to nothing or thrown away. It just makes sense to equip the academies with it so that non-affiliated students don't have to fork out their own money.
I'm sorry you guys had to pay for your own stuff. In my opinion that's pretty sad that they make you do that. Generally the academies around here (Northern CA) get the local agencies' old equipment to use (guns, belts, batons, vests, cars, etc). That stuff usually gets auctioned off, sold for little to nothing or thrown away. It just makes sense to equip the academies with it so that non-affiliated students don't have to fork out their own money.
I just graduated the academy and landed my first job in a small borough (its a PA thing) and got another kick in the nuggets. I have to provide EVERYTHING. I was given a badge and some uniform patches. Thats it. Everything else is on my dime.
Back to the original topic. I used a Glock 17 for my academy and also on duty. I shot it very well and could not be happier with its performance. I got my balls busted for using a 9mm but I also got top shooter in the class. Get something you can shoot well and get accurate hits fast.
I just graduated the academy and landed my first job in a small borough (its a PA thing) and got another kick in the nuggets. I have to provide EVERYTHING. I was given a badge and some uniform patches. Thats it. Everything else is on my dime.
<Hijack>
When I started, I got a single hand-me down uniform shirt from a senior officer, and waited three months for two more. I provided everything else. I made about eight bucks an hour. My patrol car ran. Most of the time. Still, I was still happier than heck to be there, and I would've done it for less.
The new guys have a great wage and benefit package, and get everything issued except their underwear and wristwatch. They still find plenty to whine about.
</Hijack>
Back to the tread...
<Hijack>
When I started, I got a single hand-me down uniform shirt from a senior officer, and waited three months for two more. I provided everything else. I made about eight bucks an hour. My patrol car ran. Most of the time. Still, I was still happier than heck to be there, and I would've done it for less.
The new guys have a great wage and benefit package, and get everything issued except their underwear and wristwatch. They still find plenty to whine about.
</Hijack>
Back to the tread...
I started at $8.73 an hour in a refurbished Caprice Classic that was in worse condition than when it was sent out.
I graduated the police academy (PA) in 1998 and had to provide my own weapon and duty gear.
tracker722
03-05-10, 19:12
******
rugbymike,
Carefully contemplate what kaltblitz has wisely written above...
<Hijack>
When I started, I got a single hand-me down uniform shirt from a senior officer, and waited three months for two more. I provided everything else. I made about eight bucks an hour. My patrol car ran. Most of the time. Still, I was still happier than heck to be there, and I would've done it for less.
The new guys have a great wage and benefit package, and get everything issued except their underwear and wristwatch. They still find plenty to whine about.
</Hijack>
Back to the tread...
Im pulling in $8.50/hr right now. I am so happy to have this job with the way the LE market is right now in PA.
ThirdWatcher
03-06-10, 07:33
Your Mom carries a 1911? :D
Hahaha yup, she lovers her 1911. She was shooting it one day when my dad passed her an XDM 9, she said "The XDM flet so icky!! I felt like I was shooting a toy"
Beat Trash
03-06-10, 13:01
When discussing handguns for LEO usage, don't get hung up on the caliber.
If your agency choses the caliber for you, then it's a non-issue. But if you can choose, please remember this. Shot placement is of much more importance than 9mm vs. 40 vs. 45, when comparable ammunition is used in all three calibers.
With that said, you might find the 9mm better for your needs, as ammunition is cheaper and recoil management is a bit easier, in the same type of firearm.
I'd strongly suggest you look at a Glock 17 or a M&P 9. Either would serve your need well.
Quote:
"Finally I'd get a Springfield 1911, shot it in my free time to break it in and once reliable I'd retire my Glock and carry the 1911."
This quote tells me you have some learning to do.
The biggest issue when switching from a Glock to a 1911 is not something as simple as breaking in the 1911, its becoming proficient with a 1911.
Whats that mean?? Let me give you my own story.
I've been shooting IDPA since it began in 1998. I'm decent, I made Expert with my Glock 34. Everything I've shot in the last 10 yrs has been some form of Double Action Only. (Glock 34, Kahr PM9, S&W 340 J frame)
I bought my second 1911 this summer. (the first was a terribly loose colt that I hated) It was a Les Baer and it is amazing. I love shooting that gun.
Would I carry it?? NO freaking way. Why? Because I AM THE WEAK LINK.
After 10+ years of DAO it is just beginning to become intuitive for me to sweep the safety off without thinking.
More importantly I am NOT consistently sweeping the safety back ON when I come off target. It all has to happen in the subconscious if you are going to carry a 1911 effectively. I am not yet ready.
Also, simply going to the range and blasting away will not get me ready either. Competition, stress, is the fastest way to burn this stuff into your mind.
The problem I'm having with IDPA or anything like it, is you never holster on the clock and you never holster a 1911 with the hammer back. So I am not getting practice sweeping the safety on.
As others have said, with any quality gun,, you will be the weak link. Work on that.
There are some unanswered questions for anyone to even be able to make decent recommendations;
Do you need to provide your own pistol for this academy? (I assume so)
Do you have an agency in mind already, and if so, what do they carry?
Do you need to provide your own ammo for this academy class?
If you have to buy your own gun and ammo, and I assume holster, etc., then I'd strongly advise getting a Glock 17.
If you go to an agency where you can pick your own duty weapon then you are already set. If you go to an agency that only authorizes a Glock 22 but you have to buy your own gear, you can either keep the G17 as a training weapon and carry the G22, or just trade the G17 in for a G22 if you are short on money.
If agencies in your area have gone to the M&P, then the 9mm version of those would be indicated as a better choice perhaps.
All of the above would still apply if you bought a Glock 19, and you would also have a great off-duty gun out of the deal.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-08-10, 10:46
A Glock 17 is the best value. It is basically nuke-proof and is available for a reasonable cost. It is likely that your department will issue you some Glock variant anyway. And if they don't, it will likely be one of its descendants. If they end up issuing you a .40 then you will have no problem transitioning, and you can always trade a Glock later.
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