View Full Version : So how do you tell if you have an LE M&P pistol?
Max Collins
03-03-10, 22:49
Mine came with Novak Trijicons but only 2 mags.
It has several stickers on the box: 1) A blue circle, 2) a yellow circle, 3) the one with the model, caliber (9mm), type, barrel, and SKU (309701), and 4) a smaller white sticker with bar codes, "BPS" in the upper left corner, "GB: 16066" in the upper right, "LOW" in the lower left, and "S&W 309701LE M&P 9MM 4 1/4 NS" in the middle between bar codes.
I'd like to think this is an LE gun, but the lack of a 3rd mag and the fact that the 9mm M&P isn't listed on Smith's website as a LE gun leave me wondering.
spamsammich
03-03-10, 23:09
I think the LE guns have a different striker. Mine doesn't look like the cast silver striker I ordered as a backup. Mine looks like it was turned down on a lathe, nitrided, and polished.
Max Collins
03-03-10, 23:23
Your M&P is an LE gun? Do you still have the box with all the stickers?
spamsammich
03-03-10, 23:27
Your M&P is an LE gun? Do you still have the box with all the stickers?
I was told by the guy I sourced it from that it was an LE model. I am on the road, away from the gun. It came with 3 mags and factory installed Trijicon 3 dot night sights.
geminidglocker
03-03-10, 23:29
Even better, who cares? If it feeds rounds into its camber and expels lead, what difference does it make?:confused:
Max Collins
03-04-10, 00:01
Even better, who cares? If it feeds rounds into its camber and expels lead, what difference does it make?:confused:
I knew I'd get this kind of response from at least one person. Why even bother wasting your precious time posting in this thread if it makes no difference to you?
But, just to humor you, it is a legitimate and simple question. It has been commonly posted that the LE guns get more QC and TLC than the non-LE M&Ps. Smith apparently cares more about LE than non-LE citizens. And, if spamsammich is correct, the LE guns get a different and perhaps upgraded striker. M&Ps have a bit of a reputation for striker breakage.
Is it really too much to ask to know whether or not I am being defended by the best possible tool at my disposal? Isn't this entire site pretty much about having top-notch fighting equipment?
spamsammich
03-04-10, 00:14
Personally, if I need to order a replacement part for my gun, I want it to be the same part unless it was proven obsolete or inferior. If LE guns get a better or different striker, I want it. I do notice a difference in trigger pull when I go between the replacement striker I ordered from Brownells and my stock striker.
Max Collins
03-04-10, 00:33
Personally, if I need to order a replacement part for my gun, I want it to be the same part unless it was proven obsolete or inferior. If LE guns get a better or different striker, I want it. I do notice a difference in trigger pull when I go between the replacement striker I ordered from Brownells and my stock striker.
Interesting. Thank you for your input. With which striker is the trigger pull better?
Difference in SKU #'s.
I don't know what the # is exactly to say, but if I had to guess it begins with a different # than a 1 or a 2...;)
spamsammich
03-04-10, 06:21
Interesting. Thank you for your input. With which striker is the trigger pull better?
the original striker feels better, but it has been polished with use. I'm sure the new one can be improved upon over time as well or I can polish it with a really fine stone or maybe some flitz.
Robb Jensen
03-04-10, 06:46
Difference in SKU #'s.
Winner, Winner Chicken dinner.
Go over to the M&P forum... www.mp-pistol.com Then click on FAQ forum, 3rd page, post titled "SKU" it has a list of the sku# that S&W uses, including LE SKU's. To answer your question, if it's a LE pistol the SKU will begin with a 3...
Go over to the M&P forum... www.mp-pistol.com Then click on FAQ forum, 3rd page, post titled "SKU" it has a list of the sku# that S&W uses, including LE SKU's. To answer your question, if it's a LE pistol the SKU will begin with a 3...
EDIT: Looks like I got some bad dope about the # of mags. All LEO guns come with 3.
The others are correct that the SKU's are the only way to tell. Plus if you look really close there is a Chuck Norris beard hair under the sear on LE guns:p.
As for the strikers, it was my impression that all new productions Smiths from late 2009 on have the revised striker. I just looked at some commercial guns the other day and they look to have the same striker as the LE guns.
According to my LE Dealer the guns with standard contrast sights only come with 2 mags. The night sighted ones come with three.
Not correct. I have a standard non-night site LEO MP9FS that came with 3 mags.
Max Collins
03-04-10, 10:52
Much appreciated, gentlemen.
I was running my hands around the gun, noticing the lack of sharp edges....that is until I found the Chuck Norris beard hair under the sear and now I can't stop bleeding....might...need...a....tourniquet...
Much appreciated, gentlemen.
I was running my hands around the gun, noticing the lack of sharp edges....that is until I found the Chuck Norris beard hair under the sear and now I can't stop bleeding....might...need...a....tourniquet...
The really hard part about replacing the sear with the Apex sear was SAFELY getting the beard hair back in place. That beard hair is what tames the recoil of the .40s and .357 sigs...........:D
Im still wondering how the hair was removed from Mr Norris's beard...
Its common knowledge that behind the beard there is not a chin but only another fist, so if you try to clip off a hair, you will just get punched in the face by his chin/fist...
I dont even think that Mr Norris himself has the ability to pull out/cut one of those bad boys...
Makes you wonder...
As for the strikers, it was my impression that all new productions Smiths from late 2009 on have the revised striker.
S&W is on at least it’s fourth striker revision.
I just looked at some commercial guns the other day and they look to have the same striker as the LE guns.
I would bet money there isn’t an “LE” striker.
My guess is that the different SKU’s for “LE” guns is merely to let someone know at the end of the production line to throw a third magazine into the box. :D
LE guns get a third magazine and, depending on intended end-user, may get slightly different QC checks.
Neither Smith nor any other reputable handgun manufacturer puts "good parts" in LE guns and "bad parts" in commercial guns. Commercial guns are just as likely -- perhaps more likely -- to see hard use and high round counts. Plus, it would be a logistical nightmare to keep two different versions of a part for production.
Plus, for most manufacturers, it's not uncommon to take a stale inventory of LE guns and repackage them for commercial sale, or vice versa.
gtmtnbiker98
03-04-10, 14:16
I have two M&P Compacts that are LE guns. They came with factory night sights, three magazines, and equipped with the magazine disconnect. Both were purchased through an LE distributor. Nothing else special on the firearms. I paid $480.
I would bet money there isn’t an “LE” striker.
me too, I hope my post got this across.
brushy bill
03-04-10, 17:02
Not correct. I have a standard non-night site LEO MP9FS that came with 3 mags.
Not to beat a dead horse, but second that...I bought an M&P from OMB Express and it had standard sights and 3 magazines.
Not to beat a dead horse, but second that...I bought an M&P from OMB Express and it had standard sights and 3 magazines.
Thats intresting. I'll have to ask my dealer to clarify when I get over there next. Sorry for the misinformation.
RustyFalcon
03-04-10, 17:16
My "LE models" have SKU that start with a 3 whereas the normal model I think starts with a '1'.
Here's an example:
http://knology.net/~decker/hobbies/SWMP/MP45M_ProductCodes_2008-0523.jpg
And another:
http://knology.net/~decker/hobbies/SWMP/ProductCodes.jpg
I also have a LEO M&P that came with standard sights and three mags.
Alpha Sierra
03-05-10, 05:09
I'd like to know who has substantive proof that S&W LE pistols get "a higher level of QC" that those sold at retail.
I bet such evidence cannot be produced. Just another interwebz myth.
John_Wayne777
03-05-10, 07:07
It's actually not myth. Many gun companies do it. Some gun companies have entire separate production lines dedicated to producing LE guns of the same model as consumer guns.
Alpha Sierra
03-05-10, 08:07
It's actually not myth. Many gun companies do it. Some gun companies have entire separate production lines dedicated to producing LE guns of the same model as consumer guns.
A separate production line does not necessarily equate to a higher level of QC, unless the customer specifies additional inspection or process control over and above what the manufacturer considers proper.
The reasons for the additional line can be as mundane as the need for additional capacity to deal with a contract's delivery schedule, or different features requested by the contract that are difficult to include in the existing production process.
FWIW I have been a manufacturing engineer, quality engineer or mfg eng. manager for the last 15 years. I only say that to establish that I am not straying out of my lane when discussing production and quality issues.
In my opinion the mere fact that some companies have LE lines has nothing to do with the conversation. They have a dedicated LE side and guns specifically marked as “LE”. The easiest example would be Remington’s “LE” 870’s.
Nobody has ever proved to me nor have I ever heard anything officially from S&W state that they do anything different to their LE customers M&P’s, other than the “Specific Customers” that Todd alluded too. I think it’s safe to assume “Specific Customers” does not mean every S&W M&P sold with an LE SKU gets anything more than a third magazine.
I'd like to know who has substantive proof that S&W LE pistols get "a higher level of QC" that those sold at retail.
I bet such evidence cannot be produced. Just another interwebz myth.
Incorrect. All LE guns go through another level of QC and get test fired (at the very least). I have been to the S&W factory. ;)
C4
In my opinion the mere fact that some companies have LE lines has nothing to do with the conversation. They have a dedicated LE side and guns specifically marked as “LE”. The easiest example would be Remington’s “LE” 870’s.
Nobody has ever proved to me nor have I ever heard anything officially from S&W state that they do anything different to their LE customers M&P’s, other than the “Specific Customers” that Todd alluded too. I think it’s safe to assume “Specific Customers” does not mean every S&W M&P sold with an LE SKU gets anything more than a third magazine.
The Remy SG is a bad example (as the 870P is MUCH different than an 870). They use MUCH better components in the P version and a better finish.
I also know for a fact that some companies do use different components in their LE guns. This was last year so I cannot say if they are still doing it or not in 2010.
C4
One last bit of info for everyone. S&W LE dealers can also get NONE LE marked guns (that start with a number 1 or 2 in their SKU) and would be "marketed" as an LE gun (as it came through the LE pipeline).
C4
The Remy SG is a bad example (as the 870P is MUCH different than an 870). They use MUCH better components in the P version and a better finish.
I also know for a fact that some companies do use different components in their LE guns. This was last year so I cannot say if they are still doing it or not in 2010.
C4
:D
No it’s not because that’s exactly what has been alluded to in this thread or in others on M4c; "LE SKU M&P’s get extra QC", "Separate production lines", "Completely different (Higher Quality) parts", ETC. So you’re saying absolutely every single S&W LE SKU M&P gets these things? If so, I would like to see something from S&W stating this.
:D
No it’s not because that’s exactly what has been alluded to in this thread or in others on M4c; "LE SKU M&P’s get extra QC", "Separate production lines", "Completely different (Higher Quality) parts", ETC. So you’re saying absolutely every single S&W LE SKU M&P gets these things? If so, I would like to see something from S&W stating this.
In order for the remy example to work, there would have to be DRASTIC difference in the M&P. For instance, different steel would have to be used in the slide, the finish would have to be night and day as well.
I cannot say if the 2010 M&P LE pistols have different components from commercial versions. So I will not comment.
In the past, I have held LE versions of guns from S&W and compared them to commercial SKU'd guns. They were different.
I also know that I am on the GEN I striker in my M&P. No issues. I also know that I have sold over $100k worth of S&W guns and have never heard of or known about a single LE gun going down (for striker issues).
What S&W is doing in 2010, I have no idea. One thing is for certain. All LE guns are test fired and receive much higher QC levels. The same cannot be said of the commercial guns.
C4
I'd like to know who has substantive proof that S&W LE pistols get "a higher level of QC" that those sold at retail.
I bet such evidence cannot be produced. Just another interwebz myth.
Would standing outside the secured QC check section of the manufacturing facility talking to the company's senior product manager about how the QC between LE and commercial guns count?
How about spending a total of eight years working for two different gun manufactures and seeing first hand, day in and day out, how the QC processes differed between the LE and non-LE guns?
There's a big difference between "interwebz myth" and simply being ignorant of facts.
Having just completed the M&P LE Armorer class, when we order M&P replacement parts for "LE pistols", the parts numbers are exactly the same as for commercial pistols, therefore it would appear that the commercial and LE M&P pistols use exactly the same parts...
Would standing outside the secured QC check section of the manufacturing facility talking to the company's senior product manager about how the QC between LE and commercial guns count?
How about spending a total of eight years working for two different gun manufactures and seeing first hand, day in and day out, how the QC processes differed between the LE and non-LE guns?
There's a big difference between "interwebz myth" and simply being ignorant of facts.
How does this fit in with your earlier post in this thread?
LE guns get a third magazine and, depending on intended end-user, may get slightly different QC checks.
Neither Smith nor any other reputable handgun manufacturer puts "good parts" in LE guns and "bad parts" in commercial guns. Commercial guns are just as likely -- perhaps more likely -- to see hard use and high round counts. Plus, it would be a logistical nightmare to keep two different versions of a part for production.
Plus, for most manufacturers, it's not uncommon to take a stale inventory of LE guns and repackage them for commercial sale, or vice versa.
John_Wayne777
03-06-10, 11:09
A separate production line does not necessarily equate to a higher level of QC,
If we're talking about manufacturing in general you're right. When I worked at a plant many moons ago we had different lines running the same product only labeled differently. We also, however, had lines producing a higher quality version of that same design with some extra QC requirements built into the production process, some better quality parts, etc.
When speaking of the firearms industry specifically, we do know that many companies produce guns bound for LE holsters differently than guns intended for the consumer market. We know this because companies, representatives of companies, those who have relationships with companies, and those who used to work at companies have all attested to the truth of it. It's not myth...it's fact.
Now what are the differences between an LE gun and a non-LE gun? That is going to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and from time period to time period. Variables can include whether or not the company makes small parts for the weapons in house (which is highly fluid and can change) what contractor is making those small parts during a particular time period, what QC inspection processes (if any) are employed by the contractor and the eventual buyer to ensure those parts meet spec, what third party processes are involved in finishing those parts (if necessary), etc. It's highly unlikely, for instance, that slides, barrels etc are made differently from different materials for the different market. Small parts from various subcontractors can vary from individual specimen to individual specimen on LE guns just like on consumer guns. A run of LE guns could be built with a defective part from a subcontractor that the manufacturer doesn't know about just like consumer guns, but if the defect is apparent in test firing the problem with the LE gun is more likely to be spotted before the gun leaves the factory grounds than the consumer gun that is boxed up and shipped to a wholesaler. That is ultimately the attraction to buying an LE gun...it's not a guarantee that nothing slipped through the cracks, it's just that the cracks are smaller and harder to slip through.
The differences between an LE gun and a non LE gun in a certain company on a given day can be the label on the box, or it could be something much more profound. Still, the general rule applies: LE guns get more TLC in the production process than consumer guns, mostly in terms of QC. This makes all the business sense in the world from the company's point of view, as they are looking to protect procurement contracts. The extents they go to in protecting those contracts would often blow your mind.
If I HAD to have a .40 caliber Glock as my only sidearm, I would want a gun intended to go to the FBI. Why? Because Glock treats those guns differently and as such they are more likely to work reliably out of the box than the Glock 22 sitting on my funstore's shelf. Now it's entirely possible for the funstore G22 to run well while the FBI gun is a dog...but if we were to take percentages the odds of the gun coming out of the box at Quantico working perfectly is going to be higher than the odds of the G22 at Bob's Gunstore coming out of the box that way.
How does this fit in with your earlier post in this thread?
As DocGKR's recent armorer experience proves, the guns do not get different parts. I haven't said otherwise.
Different companies have different approaches. Those approaches also change over time. When I started at SIG, LE and commercial guns were treated almost identically. By the time I left, the company was no longer test firing guns destined for commercial customers. During my tenure at Beretta, I saw the same change occur there.
Then on top of all that, some contracts call for specific checks. For example, Smith doesn't proof test M&P pistol barrels. However, if a contract calls for it, they have the capability to do it for that contract. The current ATF procurement (which hasn't been awarded yet) specifically requires that "Each handgun must be certified from the factory as having fired at least three (3) full magazines of ATF- approved duty ammunition without a stoppage of any kind." When we won the ICE contract at SIG, DHS actually sent a team of quality inspectors to our factory and made specific changes to our QC procedure for their guns. Etc.
Last I knew from first hand experience -- about 18 months ago -- Smith was test firing all M&P pistols regardless of expected end-user.
Different companies have different approaches. Those approaches also change over time.
Then on top of all that, some contracts call for specific checks.
These are very important things to remember I think.
To add to what Todd said, it will also vary from platform to platform. So while a company may not have different parts for their pistols, their SG's, AR's and bolt guns may get totally different parts or proof checks.
C4
Okay, I am thoroughly confused now. Assuming that I will be purchasing a M&P40 at the upcoming S&W Demo Days at my local dealer in two weeks, am I going to be purchasing a lesser quaility handgun if it's a non-LEO model?
Don't worry about it with an M&P; I've used both and can detect no major discernible differences--best of all, if you did end up with a QC issue, S&W's CS currently is the industry leader at making things right...
GLOCKMASTER
03-06-10, 15:35
Okay, I am thoroughly confused now. Assuming that I will be purchasing a M&P40 at the upcoming S&W Demo Days at my local dealer in two weeks, am I going to be purchasing a lesser quaility handgun if it's a non-LEO model?
No!!!!
Okay, I am thoroughly confused now. Assuming that I will be purchasing a M&P40 at the upcoming S&W Demo Days at my local dealer in two weeks, am I going to be purchasing a lesser quaility handgun if it's a non-LEO model?
No. The gun was built the same way by the same people using the same parts, and it's backed by the same company with the same stellar customer service record.
The only difference is that the gun may not have had all the same QC checks. This would be more of a concern if people were reporting QC issues with M&Ps, but in general they're not. And no one should take away from this that the commercial guns get no QC checks. As I said, Smith is one of the few companies that still test fires its commercial guns to make sure they work before going out the warehouse door.
John_Wayne777
03-06-10, 19:28
Okay, I am thoroughly confused now. Assuming that I will be purchasing a M&P40 at the upcoming S&W Demo Days at my local dealer in two weeks, am I going to be purchasing a lesser quaility handgun if it's a non-LEO model?
Nope. None of my M&P's are LE guns. They all run just fine.
If it runs fine with doughnut jelly on the rails, it's an LE gun.
Okay, I am thoroughly confused now. Assuming that I will be purchasing a M&P40 at the upcoming S&W Demo Days at my local dealer in two weeks, am I going to be purchasing a lesser quaility handgun if it's a non-LEO model?
Dude, don't buy into the BS. Get your M&P40, clean it, feed it and shoot the piss out of it. All this LE vs. Commerical stuff is just fluff. If I were you (and keep in mind that I'm not qualifed to answer your question) I'd turn your ignore filter on high and head to the range with your new M&P.
It seems like some people are making this into a bigger issue than it really is. Based on Todd's description of what the better QC for the LE guns actually entails, I can't see where it really makes all that much difference. The same parts are used and the extra QC checks would not reveal any long term reliability or durability issues.
A non-LE gun that gave you no problems the first time you took it to the range would certainly have passed the LE QC process, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?
Tennvol12345
03-10-10, 08:55
I have 2 MP LE guns, a 45C and a 9C, they both look identical to a commercial gun. The only thing I notice is that the finish on my 45C (newer shiny black) wears pretty quick.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. If I hadn't been able to snag them for the LE price I would have no issue with grabbing one from a local dealer.
harrydog it right.
If you have an LE gun with one striker and a commercial gun with another striker, it's because the two guns were built at different times. Smith doesn't inventory two different types of parts. Smith doesn't build two different types of guns. Depending on specific circumstances, a gun destined for sale to an LE agency may receive additional QC checks.
LandCruiser
03-17-10, 13:18
My department told us to get the LE version. Which to my knowledge the difference is: my version comes with 3 mags, factory installed Trijicon night sights, no manual safety and is able to fire a round without the magazine in. The "regular" version I think can have a mix and match of these, but not all of them.
brushy bill
03-17-10, 17:33
My department told us to get the LE version. Which to my knowledge the difference is: my version comes with 3 mags, factory installed Trijicon night sights, no manual safety and is able to fire a round without the magazine in. The "regular" version I think can have a mix and match of these, but not all of them.
Just to clarify, not all LE SKUs have night sights and some have a mag safety. The SKU for the LE versions starts with a 3 as previously indicated.
LandCruiser
03-19-10, 09:44
Just to clarify, not all LE SKUs have night sights and some have a mag safety. The SKU for the LE versions starts with a 3 as previously indicated.
I suppose that is correct.
If someone is going to purchase this pistol, why would they not get it with all of options (or lack of options for a couple of these)? They are apparently hard to find, but not impossible. I had the luxury of ordering mine through our LE distributor, but I have been made aware of many on the market. MTC
I suppose that is correct.
If someone is going to purchase this pistol, why would they not get it with all of options (or lack of options for a couple of these)? They are apparently hard to find, but not impossible. I had the luxury of ordering mine through our LE distributor, but I have been made aware of many on the market. MTC
Well, for example not everyone likes the NS that S&W offers...I like Heinie Straight 8's, I bought one without NS installed because I already knew I was going to change them.
brushy bill
03-19-10, 12:52
I suppose that is correct.
If someone is going to purchase this pistol, why would they not get it with all of options (or lack of options for a couple of these)? They are apparently hard to find, but not impossible. I had the luxury of ordering mine through our LE distributor, but I have been made aware of many on the market. MTC
Like Ralph mentioned, I personally prefer two dot Warrens, Heines, adjustable Novaks, etc... to the factory night sight, so I selected standard fixed sights as I intend to replace them to begin with.
For the magazine safety, I personally believe this is a handy feature that can potentially save lifes. Viewing this from the perspective of which feature is most likely to make a difference (one extra bullet) or the ability to render the weapon inoperable in the event of a snatch, I lean towards the latter. If I ever change my mind, it is very easy to deactivate and you don't have a billboard on the side of the handgun.
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