View Full Version : AK timeline
tommygunn47
03-04-10, 12:36
I was looking at this photo essay at Time re: the AK and pic 3 is of a Native American at Wounded Knee, 1973 holding a milled AK. I was wondering when and what makes of AKs were first domestically available? I was born in the early 70s and the first AKs I can remember were the Maadis from the early 80s, didn't think anything was available prior to that.
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1964810,00.html
Neat pic. As far as I know the AK-47 was first designed in... 1947. Would be interesting to know when they first made it to these shores. This link has some good info, though it is also a webstore which I have no experience with and cannot vouche for. Lots of links along the left margin to the different countries variants. Check out the Russian link for early AK info. Hope this is helpful.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as00-e.htm
Looking at the front sight and stocks I'm gonna say Chinese.
So we are talking about an early Clayco or Golden State Arms import.
geminidglocker
03-04-10, 13:57
Or, perhaps it is an AK-47, not one of the semi-auto clones????:confused:
I don't call my ARs M16s, and I don't call my semi-auto AKs AK-47s.
A few observations. It has a milled receiver and the old style flash hider. I have never seen Chinese guns with flash hiders except for U.S imports. Also, looking at the pins on the receiver my guess is that it is a real deal AK47 and not a copy.
I am guessing a possible Vietnam bring back (probably not legal) and I would say it is either Russian or Bulgarian.
GermanSynergy
03-04-10, 14:35
What 7.62x39mm ammunition was commercially available on the US market in 1973?
Here is a color image of the same guy. The AK is full-auto and appears to be Chinese, Im pretty sure its a Vietnam bring-back.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l41/ak_fan2000/Halstead_05.jpg
geminidglocker
03-04-10, 17:18
WOW!!! That guy sure is happy about his AK.
That's exactly what I looked like yesterday opening my package from K-VAR! :D
That's a bring back from Vietnam, there weren't any semi auto AK's brought in until Valmet brought some of their M62/S variants in the late 70's.
It's the real deal. Without detailed pics, I couldn't tell you whether it's Chinese, Russian, Hungarian, Polish, etc.
My knee jerk reaction is that it's a Chinese Type 56 or M22 provided to the NVA or VC and brought back by a returning GI.
I know that all of the Chicom Type 56 and 56-1's that I saw in Iraq had underfolder bayonets. This one doesn't appear to have that. Also the flash hider is reminiscent of the early Russian and Bulgarian AK's.
That's a bring back from Vietnam, there weren't any semi auto AK's brought in until Valmet brought some of their M62/S variants in the late 70's.
It's the real deal. Without detailed pics, I couldn't tell you whether it's Chinese, Russian, Hungarian, Polish, etc.
My knee jerk reaction is that it's a Chinese Type 56 or M22 provided to the NVA or VC and brought back by a returning GI.
The Chinese have made many different variations of the Kalashnikov. It depends which factory produced it during which time period. The early ones were pretty much copies of the Russian Type 3, main difference being the wood and markings. Below is a pic that represents the type of AK I believe the Native American is holding. Could also be the Chinese M22, same ak as in the pic but with no Chinese Markings. They were meant as export model, selector markings were L and D.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/Stottman/guns/ChiCom/ChiT56milled-2nobayoRH.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/Stottman/guns/ChiCom/ChiT56milled-2nobayomark.jpg
(Photo credits go to Rob Stottman)
I know that all of the Chicom Type 56 and 56-1's that I saw in Iraq had underfolder bayonets. This one doesn't appear to have that. Also the flash hider is reminiscent of the early Russian and Bulgarian AK's.
What flash hider? That's a muzzle nut to protect the threads.
How the hell did that guy get ammo for it back then??
What 7.62x39mm ammunition was commercially available on the US market in 1973?
none.
it was actually designed during WWII. It was considered so secret that Russian troops had to pick up the spent casings. At least that's the general fact i hear most about.
The SKS used 7.62x39 cartridges too. Small arms are such a low ticket item that I doubt the Soviets were using any additional precautions. It went through testing, fielding, and wide scale production, just like any weapons system. The Soviets were lumbering, so the roll out took a while and improvements were made during production. IE they didn't make a type 1 AK for every soviet soldier, then make a type 2 for everyone, etc, etc. It almost seems like the first AK's shipped outside Russia were Type 1/2/3's. You see a lot of AKM's in Russia, but not many milled AK's, even in Eastern Europe, they're all in Africa, South Asia, or the Pacific.
We knew about the AK's existence since Schmiesser went back to East Germany in 1952 because of poor health, but we could have known about it before even then. Our intelligence on the Soviets was usually accurate, and they usually knew what we knew. The vast majority of their resources went to offensively oriented propaganda. Cultivating local leftists to destabilize countries, IE journalists, politicians, teachers.
it was actually designed during WWII. It was considered so secret that Russian troops had to pick up the spent casings. At least that's the general fact i hear most about.
Work was started on actual rifles in the very last days of WWII, but the AK-47 was type classified in 1947, first production was 1949 with the Type I, the Type 2 came online with the first milled receivers around 1952, and the Type 3, what most people think of when they think "AK-47", around 1954 or so. The stamped receiver, modernized AKM came online in 1959.
No commercial ammo was available in the US in the early 70's, and even into the early 80's about the only place you could get ammo was Finnish Lapua, Brazilian CBC, and Egyptian. Chinese ammo started coming in a bit later.
The rifle that the AIM member is brandishing looks to be an early Chinese Type 56, which didn't have the folding spike bayonets that later models had, and was made as the Chinese M22, which was mainly an export model.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29341&highlight=chinese+export
You're right, wrong terminology.
What flash hider? That's a muzzle nut to protect the threads.
GermanSynergy
03-07-10, 22:01
Were AK's used on the 1950 - 1953 Korean conflict? I've done some checking and can't find a definitive answer.
Were AK's used on the 1950 - 1953 Korean conflict? I've done some checking and can't find a definitive answer.
No, the Soviets hadn't exported the technology yet. The Chinese were gifted with the tooling and prints for the SKS and the AK-47 in 1956, and almost immediately the Soviets and the PRC had a falling out which resulted in border clashes and cessation of military aid from the Soviets.
The first time Western intelligence agencies got a glimpse of the AK-47 was during the Soviet crackdown in Hungary in 1956.
The Soviets did provide a lot of military assistance to the Chinese and North Koreans in the form of German WWII infantry weapons that had been captured during the war.
The first time Western troops faced the AK was in Vietnam.
GermanSynergy
03-08-10, 11:04
No, the Soviets hadn't exported the technology yet. The Chinese were gifted with the tooling and prints for the SKS and the AK-47 in 1956, and almost immediately the Soviets and the PRC had a falling out which resulted in border clashes and cessation of military aid from the Soviets.
The first time Western intelligence agencies got a glimpse of the AK-47 was during the Soviet crackdown in Hungary in 1956.
The Soviets did provide a lot of military assistance to the Chinese and North Koreans in the form of German WWII infantry weapons that had been captured during the war.
The first time Western troops faced the AK was in Vietnam.
Thanks. I've got a few pics of my firing an AK in Hungary about 10 years ago and other WP armaments. I'll scan and post as time allows.
Ummm.... I know there are a bunch of youngsters on his forum (I'm feeling old now), but can you guess who was supplying and supporting the Indians of the AIM and at Wounded Knee, fighting the US Government, during the Cold War?
One guess only. :dirol:
That's a bring back from Vietnam, there weren't any semi auto AK's brought in until Valmet brought some of their M62/S variants in the late 70's.
This is true, although some don't consider the M62/S to be a "true" AK.
The first real semi-auto AKs were the Steyr, Secaucus NJ imported Maadis built on Russian tooling. They were imported in the early 80s and many were legally papered and converted to NFA and used in the film Red Dawn.
I have a very low serial number Steyr Maadi which I have since had completely redone by Marc Krebs with a full Russian laminated stock set and an original mag.
It is a great shooting, and great looking rifle.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-5/1004431/SteyrMaadiAKM.jpg
RogerinTPA
08-16-10, 09:21
Ummm.... I know there are a bunch of youngsters on his forum (I'm feeling old now), but can you guess who was supplying and supporting the Indians of the AIM and at Wounded Knee, fighting the US Government, during the Cold War?
One guess only. :dirol:
Personal stash.
Imagine M4C being a tribe in a specific geographic location. The tribe is threatened, what do we all show up with? Our personal stash of assorted AR variants, long rifles, shotguns, pistols and ammo.
My guess is that the Native Americans in that pic are Vietnam Vets. Lots of GIs spirited away AKs, SKSs and other firearms from that war, including a few PPsh-41s, hand grenades, you name it.
Ummm.... I know there are a bunch of youngsters on his forum (I'm feeling old now), but can you guess who was supplying and supporting the Indians of the AIM and at Wounded Knee, fighting the US Government, during the Cold War?
One guess only. :dirol:
Your kidding right?
How hard is it to comprehend that they may have actually take the initiative to stand up on their own?
Drifting off topic guys.....bring it back in please.
Were AK's used on the 1950 - 1953 Korean conflict? I've done some checking and can't find a definitive answer.
I have had a few Korean made examples go thru the books over the years. None had amnesty papers with them nor 'capture papers'. I was never inclined to do much research to determine if they were brought back during the war or even when the NK's were tooled up the manufacture them. I should have kept one.
Ummm.... I know there are a bunch of youngsters on his forum (I'm feeling old now), but can you guess who was supplying and supporting the Indians of the AIM and at Wounded Knee, fighting the US Government, during the Cold War?
One guess only. :dirol:
Marlon Brando? :)
This is true, although some don't consider the M62/S to be a "true" AK.
The first real semi-auto AKs were the Steyr, Secaucus NJ imported Maadis built on Russian tooling. They were imported in the early 80s and many were legally papered and converted to NFA and used in the film Red Dawn.
I have a very low serial number Steyr Maadi which I have since had completely redone by Marc Krebs with a full Russian laminated stock set and an original mag.
It is a great shooting, and great looking rifle.
I believe Templar is correct. IIRC, Valmet was the first AK imported followed by Clayco as the first ChiCom.
The Steyrs were the first Soviet Bloc style AKM's imported. The problem with many of the conversions on these was the lack of the 'rate reducer' parts as they were not available at the time the conversions were done, or at least not many. Most that were converted were done quickly without to much concern as to the 'authenticity'. Allot of them have been redone correctly over time with the parts added as well as the rail being repaired with the slot for the sear arm versus just grinding the rail out as many conversions had been done.
The Soviet Bloc AKM's used 1mm sheet metal which though lighter causes vibrations in the receiver and bolt bounce. The ‘rate reducing’ parts slow it down a few milliseconds allowing the bolt to seat in battery. It was never designed to actually reduce the rate of fire. ChiCom AKM’s use 1.5mm sheet metal for the receiver, enough to negate the need for the 'rate reducing' parts.
I have the original Steyr supplied paperwork that came with one of the rifles around here somewhere if anyone is interested. It is serial numbered to a rifle, but still a neat piece of semi AK history. Shoot me a pm with your address and I will mail it to you if I find it.
Regarding an AK carried by the Lakota in the photo, keep in mind this was 1973. A.I.M (American Indian Movement) was stirring up Native Americans here in New Mexico as well the same year, with riots in Shiprock and Farmington. G.I. bring back is probable, but A.I.M. at this time in history was regarded as a quasi terrorist group and obtaining such arms via black market sources in central America was not out of the question.
The Times photo essay is interesting as well. It seems using an AK for the oppressed in other countries (or Native Tribes here) is acceptable, yet for collecting, sport or home defense for average U.S. citizens, no mention is made. I find the bemoaning of poor Izshmash interesting as well. I wonder what those poor folks think of all the kit building here with NDS receivers?????
I recall hearing years ago that Muamar Quadaffi supplied these native Americans with AKs thru Mexico, of all places.
CumbiaDude
12-26-10, 17:25
I recall hearing years ago that Muamar Quadaffi supplied these native Americans with AKs thru Mexico, of all places.No way, everybody knows it's the US supplying all kinds of illegal weapons to Mexico, not the other way around.........
:p
Years ago , I read Russel Means' autobiography . He clearly states that they were illegally brought back from Vietnam by a couple of vets. IIRC , there were two of them and they had very little ammo .
Anytime a photographer was around or they were meeting with the authorities , they made sure the AK's were around , so it would seem they were better armed than they were . They also mocked up a RPG/ rocket launcher out of pipes and junk and used it for the same effect .
DaBears_85
04-19-11, 08:11
I've got a question that's semi off-topic, but along the same vein. Did any of the Type-III variants have a trapdoor in the buttstock for a cleaning kit?
J
Were AK's used on the 1950 - 1953 Korean conflict? I've done some checking and can't find a definitive answer.
Very unlikely. However, I had a friend who was very knowledgeable about guns and he said he saw several SKSs when he was in the Korean War. A good place to field test them.
As I recall, the first place AK47s were actually used in combat was the Hungarian Revolution in 1956.
I believe so. My Type I had a trap door IIRC.
I've got a question that's semi off-topic, but along the same vein. Did any of the Type-III variants have a trapdoor in the buttstock for a cleaning kit?
J
DaBears_85
04-20-11, 01:42
I believe so. My Type I had a trap door IIRC.
Had, as in past tense? What happened to it? Was it a clone, or the real deal?
J
Were AK's used on the 1950 - 1953 Korean conflict? I've done some checking and can't find a definitive answer.
I would like to know this as well because there is a pic of a NK soldier with an AK-47 type gun in one of my history books...but that's the only place I've ever seen such a reference.
ETA: Nevermind. I saw the other replies.
Had, as in past tense? What happened to it? Was it a clone, or the real deal?
J
Not Gunz, but he had the real deal. He won't have net access for a while.
The later Bulgarian polymer stocks and later "Classic" wooden stocks/buttplates didn't have a provision for a cleaning kit suppository, but that's the only variant that I know of like that.
DeltaSierra
09-25-11, 13:09
Here is a color image of the same guy. The AK is full-auto and appears to be Chinese, Im pretty sure its a Vietnam bring-back.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l41/ak_fan2000/Halstead_05.jpg
This rifle was a bring-back from Vietnam.
As I recall, Russell Means stated that it was a Chinese rifle.
The ammunition supply was limited, so the AIM member that owned it (can't recall his name off the top of my head) would run from one position to the next, letting off short bursts, so as to make the Feds think that there were multiple weapons being fired...
I recall hearing years ago that Muamar Quadaffi supplied these native Americans with AKs thru Mexico, of all places.
Not true.
There was only one AK used in the Wounded Knee conflict, and that was a privately "imported" rifle by a GI.
AIM received no armaments from anyone outside the US. All of the weapons employed by AIM during Wounded Knee conflict were individually owned weapons, and were not supplied to them by any entity.
Its interesting that the Soviets managed to keep the AK a secret for so many years given the size of their standing army at the time. I don't care what the experts say (or even the designer), the AK had to be inspired by the STG44. As Templar has stated, the Germans were very inventive and ahead of their time in small arms (and many other) weapons development. I say inspired not becuase of the physical characteristics between the two (as most think) but from the standpoint of an intermediate cartidge in a select fire rifle. Since the STG44 was first used on the eastern front, the Soviets would have been the first to capture and evaluate the weapon. Just like the B-29's that were "captured" by the Soviet's, I suspect that Soviet industrial capacity could not duplicate some of the more complex parts for mass production of the German "assault rifle".
Moose-Knuckle
09-25-11, 18:53
Its interesting that the Soviets managed to keep the AK a secret for so many years given the size of their standing army at the time. I don't care what the experts say (or even the designer), the AK had to be inspired by the STG44. As Templar has stated, the Germans were very inventive and ahead of their time in small arms (and many other) weapons development. I say inspired not becuase of the physical characteristics between the two (as most think) but from the standpoint of an intermediate cartidge in a select fire rifle. Since the STG44 was first used on the eastern front, the Soviets would have been the first to capture and evaluate the weapon. Just like the B-29's that were "captured" by the Soviet's, I suspect that Soviet industrial capacity could not duplicate some of the more complex parts for mass production of the German "assault rifle".
I have not read it yet, but CJ Chiver's The Gun goes into this.
http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/B004Q7E0YA/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316994643&sr=1-5
Its interesting that the Soviets managed to keep the AK a secret for so many years given the size of their standing army at the time. I don't care what the experts say (or even the designer), the AK had to be inspired by the STG44. As Templar has stated, the Germans were very inventive and ahead of their time in small arms (and many other) weapons development. I say inspired not becuase of the physical characteristics between the two (as most think) but from the standpoint of an intermediate cartidge in a select fire rifle. Since the STG44 was first used on the eastern front, the Soviets would have been the first to capture and evaluate the weapon. Just like the B-29's that were "captured" by the Soviet's, I suspect that Soviet industrial capacity could not duplicate some of the more complex parts for mass production of the German "assault rifle".
The Sturmgewehr influenced the Kalashnikov in many aspects even though they operate differently. Note the early prototypes had the charging handle and selector on the left side. The Soviets also "borrowed" Hugo Schmeisser for several years to help them with the design of what came to be the AK.
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as01/ak46_2.jpg
Yeah, I think it's been discussed before and the fact that Hugo was spirited away as part of the design team among other things makes a strong case for this.
I have not read it yet, but CJ Chiver's The Gun goes into this.
http://www.amazon.com/Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/B004Q7E0YA/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1316994643&sr=1-5
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