View Full Version : Anybody else sick of hearing about these runaway cars?
It's not rocket science, put the transmisssion in neutral.
Search "runaway car" on google news... there was a towtruck in san fran that damaged 10 cars, and a police cruiser has caused trouble. Not all throttle related, but it is striking how uncontrollable vehicles are an issue part of the time. Neutral seems to be the logical solution that is least implemented.
It's not rocket science, put the transmisssion in neutral.
this +1
not sick of hearing about it until Tacomas go to 0% for 60 months. ;)
I definately am not. This issue needs as much exposure as it can get until any companies in question get their heads out of their asses and start producing safe vehicles the FIRST TIME.
Nathan_Bell
03-09-10, 09:03
It's not rocket science, put the transmisssion in neutral.
Or bury the brake pedal. Damned near all automobiles produced the past 20 or so years have braking systems that will overcome the drivetrain. You just can't light toe the brake like you do for most stops. You have to try to drive it through the firewall, but it will stop it.
IIRC Motortrend or Car & Driver did a mini-study and most of the vehicles stopped, with the throttle firewalled and the brake pedal buried, within about 15% of the vehicles normal 70-0 distance.
Sick of it. Especially considering that it's been a problem since the 80s and every car manufacturer out there has had issues with it. Some of them even as bad as Toyota.
This is a media distraction from the fact that our country is falling apart.
Outlander Systems
03-09-10, 09:25
I'm totally sick of it.
Gotta prop up the unions and Gubmint Motors...
Yeah, these surprise me when the driver has the presence of mind to dial 911 and have a chat with the operator while doing 100 in the freeway, but doesn't have the intelligence to put the vehicle into neutral and apply the brakes!?!?!?
Idiots shouldn't have a driver's license.
Cameron
ForTehNguyen
03-09-10, 09:34
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/08/stuck-accelerator-reportedly-causes-toyota-speed-control-highway/opinion/2010/03/09/decide-americas-textbooks-frontline-culture-war
:rolleyes:
EL CAJON, California -- A California highway police officer helped slow a runaway Toyota Prius from 94 mph to a safe stop on Monday after the car's accelerator became stuck on a freeway near San Diego, authorities said.
Prius driver James Sikes said that the incident Monday occurred just two weeks after he had taken the vehicle in to an El Cajon dealership for repairs after receiving a recall notice, but he was turned away.
"I gave them my recall notice and they handed it back and said I'm not on the recall list," Sikes said.
Sikes’ 2008 Prius was not covered by the accelerator recall – only the floor mat recall, ABC News reported. His Prius model allegedly has a different accelerator than the ones with “sticky” pedals. Sikes said there didn’t appear to be anything wrong with his floor mat, ABC reported.
In a statement, Toyota said it has dispatched a field technical specialist to San Diego to investigate the incident.
Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide -- more than 6 million in the United States -- since last fall because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius.
On Monday, Sikes called 911 about 1:30 p.m. after accelerating to pass another vehicle on Interstate 8 near La Posta and finding that he could not control his car, the California Highway Patrol said.
"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny ... it jumped and it just stuck there," the 61-year-old driver said at a news conference.
"As it was going, I was trying the brakes ... it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up," Sikes said, adding he could smell the brakes burning he was pressing the pedal so hard.
A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and officers told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake. :rolleyes:
"They also got it going on a steep upgrade," said Officer Jesse Udovich. "Between those three things, they got it to slow down."
After the car decelerated to about 50 mph, Sikes turned off the engine and coasted to a halt.
The officer then maneuvered his car in front of the Prius as a precautionary block, Udovich said.
Toyota owners have complained of their vehicles speeding out of control despite efforts to slow down, sometimes resulting in deadly crashes. The government has received complaints of 34 deaths linked to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles since 2000.
One of the crashes claimed the life of a CHP officer in August.
Off-duty CHP Officer Mark Saylor was killed along with his wife, her brother and the couple's daughter after their Lexus' accelerator got stuck in La Mesa.
The Toyota-manufactured loaner vehicle slammed into a sport utility vehicle at about 100 mph, careened off the freeway, hit an embankment, overturned and burst into flames.
Yeah, these surprise me when the driver has the presence of mind to dial 911 and have a chat with the operator while doing 100 in the freeway, but doesn't have the intelligence to put the vehicle into neutral and apply the brakes!?!?!?
Idiots shouldn't have a driver's license.
Cameron
QFT. It would help to kill the ignition as well.
Dragon Slayer
03-09-10, 09:42
QFT. It would help to kill the ignition as well.
Putting the car in Neutral and hitting the brakes is the only solution, if you kill the ignition you will lose control because your power steering will also become very heavy.
ForTehNguyen
03-09-10, 09:43
I definately am not. This issue needs as much exposure as it can get until any companies in question get their heads out of their asses and start producing safe vehicles the FIRST TIME.
god forbid drivers learn how to execute an emergency maneuver for a hazardous situation they most likely created. SUA has been cried about by all manufacturers for the past 20 years with no hard evidence of anything. Because most of the time its driver stupidity. 20,000 complaints to the NHTSA and they only investigated 50 of them, because most of the time its total BS
god forbid drivers learn how to execute an emergency maneuver for a hazardous situation they most likely created. SUA has been cried about by all manufacturers for the past 20 years with no hard evidence of anything. Because most of the time its driver stupidity. 20,000 complaints to the NHTSA and they only investigated 50 of them, because most of the time its total BS
Logic is no longer accepted as a valid form of argument in this country! Go back to your hole sir!!!;)
In 90% of situations (unless a law is broken) the individual in this country is no longer held responsible for their situation. There is always an "other" that is some how more guilty then the individuals involved.
decodeddiesel
03-09-10, 09:55
I'm totally sick of it.
Gotta prop up the unions and Gubmint Motors...
I think you're onto something here. ;)
I guess I just don't see how hard it is to push hard on the brakes, put the thing in neutral (especially with a stick shift, but I swear I am about the last of that dying breed), and turn off the key.
Outlander Systems
03-09-10, 09:59
god forbid drivers learn how to execute an emergency maneuver for a hazardous situation they most likely created. SUA has been cried about by all manufacturers for the past 20 years with no hard evidence of anything. Because most of the time its driver stupidity. 20,000 complaints to the NHTSA and they only investigated 50 of them, because most of the time its total BS
;)
http://www.gryphonsecurity.com/homelandpdc.htm
Each student is also taught to operate their protective vehicle effectively and safely during emergency situations.
rickrock305
03-09-10, 11:20
most drivers are horrible. they don't use common sense in non-emergency situations. i wouldn't expect them to get a sudden dose when something goes wrong.
;)
http://www.gryphonsecurity.com/homelandpdc.htm
Must be above my security clearance as I cannot see anything but white when I open this link. :D
Buckaroo
Every time I hear about it I wonder how many of the reports are legit and how many are scams. You know, with this kind of exposure, there are plenty of people out there thinking, "How can I cash in on this?" It happens every time the media goes off on one of these tangents.
not sick of hearing about it until Tacomas go to 0% for 60 months. ;)
I agree. If I could I'd still go buy a new Tacoma tomorrow.
I'm totally sick of it.
Gotta prop up the unions and Gubmint Motors...
Yep, and it's a way to divert the public's attention away for Health Care, defecit spending, unemployment, etc.................
thopkins22
03-09-10, 14:13
When I was younger I was riding with my stepfather in a Jeep Grand Cherokee and the throttle became stuck after a hard turn. He stomped the brakes, put it in neutral, and then off. A family of squirrels had deposited a walnut in the engine compartment which rolled and jammed the engine wide open.
The exact same thing happened to my then 79 year old grandmother in her Chevy Trailblazer...she alternated between first and neutral and drove all the way to the service station with engine roaring the whole way.
I'm not sure if people are taught to stop thinking in critical situations, or if that many people are mentally unable to respond to the unknown.
ForTehNguyen
03-09-10, 14:35
no they just call the cops today. Heck even the cops call the cops :rolleyes:
god forbid drivers learn how to execute an emergency maneuver for a hazardous situation they most likely created. SUA has been cried about by all manufacturers for the past 20 years with no hard evidence of anything. Because most of the time its driver stupidity. 20,000 complaints to the NHTSA and they only investigated 50 of them, because most of the time its total BS
You're correct. Sure, Toyota needs to fix the problem. But a driver needs to know their car. It comes with an instruction manual, but no one reads it. Can't tell you how many times I've pointed at a knob and asked what it was for, or asked a person where their E-flashers were, and they have no clue.
And what the hell with this "afraid to lose power steering" bullshit. When was it even invented? If you're going 65 down a freeway and lose power steering, you'd hardly even notice. Not like you lose all steering. But I suppose the driver probably doesn't realize that he needs to shut if the ignition, then turn the key back to 'on' to have steering at all... again, read the manual.
I'm not sure if people are taught to stop thinking in critical situations, or if that many people are mentally unable to respond to the unknown.
That is a question of the ages...
It's not rocket science, put the transmisssion in neutral.
You've got it wrong, my friend. Do not screw with the trans first. The brakes are perfectly capable of bringing the vehicle to a hault. Once it stops then turn the ignition off.
Listening to the TV can get you in a world of trouble: first it was "turn off the ignition" and now "shift it into neutral". Well, not before threshhold braking I won't.
I think you're onto something here. ;)
I guess I just don't see how hard it is to push hard on the brakes, put the thing in neutral (especially with a stick shift, but I swear I am about the last of that dying breed), and turn off the key.
Wouldn't depressing the clutch work with a stick? I have had two automatics in my life and I hated them both. This problem wouldn't exist with a manual, and if there are any reports of it, I would like to see the idiot that allowed it to happen.
no they just call the cops today. Heck even the cops call the cops :rolleyes:
hit that one right on the head.
I'm totally sick of it.
Gotta prop up the unions and Gubmint Motors...
You forgot the other entity that will get rich over this...LAWYERS.
FN in MT
JBecker 72
03-09-10, 18:16
You've got it wrong, my friend. Do not screw with the trans first. The brakes are perfectly capable of bringing the vehicle to a hault. Once it stops then turn the ignition off.
Listening to the TV can get you in a world of trouble: first it was "turn off the ignition" and now "shift it into neutral". Well, not before threshhold braking I won't.
WRONG attend a race school for either cars or motorcycles.
the first thing you learn in serious training or class room discussion regarding a runaway vehicle is to disengage the power from the wheels.
certain cars generate enough power to overcome the braking force, and you may end up pushing the brakes to failure.
have you ever had a brake pedal go to the floor because you pushed them to total failure? its a very scary moment.
shift to neutral and stop the vehicle, then turn the motor off. If you grenade the motor, oh well.
(with a new Toyota, youll get a new one anyway)
I'm also sick of hearing about it....
But I have to say I had my car malf, though I never let it "run away". I was driving in my wifes Volvo T5 turbo wagon, going about 35 mph and then it went wide open due to a throttle issue, it was hauling ass! I shifted into neutral and then braked while I listened the engine scream - that sucker was wound up! I thought it might scatter but it was OK. I was able to shut it down quickly. The fix was not expensive - for a change.
...so let me see, if I'm going well above the speed limit down the freeway in my Toyota or Lexus and I notice Highway Patrol behind me, I can just call 911 and say "My accelerator is stuck" :rolleyes: this last story sounds a bit fishy to me
I've been loosely following "unintended acceleration" issues since Audi was almost destroyed in the mid-80's by a hatchet job on 60 minutes, liability attorneys, and a critical mass of complaints by owners who started jumping on the bandwagon to get their free shit.
In Audi's case and all subsequent investigations, a systemic cause for unintended acceleration has never been found. It always comes down to pedal misapplication - meaning driver error. After the Audi issue died down and NHTSA released it's final report finding only driver error to blame, other companies had less publicized issues. Buick and Lincoln/Mercury had their share of complaints, but due to the average age of Buick and Lincoln/Mercury owners, it is easier to come to the driver-error conclusion without a bunch of lawyers getting very far with a claim.
As far as I know, there has never been one case of otherwise unexplained unintended acceleration occurring with a manual transmission car. It is always an automatic transmission, because a manual makes it simple - just engage the clutch and hit the brake. To do both at the same time, you have to take your foot off the accelerator.
Sure, shit happens sometimes - throttle return springs break (read about one that put the Hemi in a Daytona Charger on full boil!), throttle cables seize up, floor mats do cause pedals to stick if they get bunched up, etc. But there's always a reason that can be found. None of this "it happens randomly for no reason with no cause found" crap.
We have reached the state of moral panic with Toyota. Everyone is going to come out of the woodwork and claim whatever they need to get their share of the attention and potential settlement dollars. At this point, you really can't believe much of what people are claiming anymore.
the new way to get rich SUE Toyota !!!
I bet toyota will get so many false claims that its insane
people are frigin tools but I guess many of us know that with the laws these days what people want etc...
wonder when its a socialist country and this starts happening more and more and then the people realize they have no rights !!!!!
Alpha Sierra
03-10-10, 05:26
Every day I grow more suspicious that the majority of people accusing their cars of taking on a life of their own are flat out liars looking for a buck.
The engineer in me is extremely skeptical of the events as described.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-10, 07:38
When I was younger I was riding with my stepfather in a Jeep Grand Cherokee and the throttle became stuck after a hard turn. He stomped the brakes, put it in neutral, and then off. A family of squirrels had deposited a walnut in the engine compartment which rolled and jammed the engine wide open.
The exact same thing happened to my then 79 year old grandmother in her Chevy Trailblazer...she alternated between first and neutral and drove all the way to the service station with engine roaring the whole way.
At least for once it wasn't the nut behind the wheel.
What exactly did you do to this family of squirrels to piss them off?
ForTehNguyen
03-10-10, 07:51
NHTSA ruled that all Audi SUA cases were driver error and also tested that even the 5000 brakes can outpower the engine.
Engineer all the fixing stupid you want, a stupid driver will still find a way to defeat such measures. Driver has always been by far the weakest link in the vehicle
NHTSA ruled that all Audi SUA cases were driver error and also tested that even the 5000 brakes can outpower the engine.
Engineer all the fixing stupid you want, a stupid driver will still find a way to defeat such measures. Driver has always been by far the weakest link in the vehicle
Correct!
This isn't about "drivers" but about dealing Japan's new minister a crippling blow.
WRONG attend a race school for either cars or motorcycles.
the first thing you learn in serious training or class room discussion regarding a runaway vehicle is to disengage the power from the wheels.
certain cars generate enough power to overcome the braking force, and you may end up pushing the brakes to failure.
have you ever had a brake pedal go to the floor because you pushed them to total failure? its a very scary moment.
shift to neutral and stop the vehicle, then turn the motor off. If you grenade the motor, oh well.
(with a new Toyota, youll get a new one anyway)
Well, I have. Several.
"When in doubt, both feet out" meaning depress clutch and brake pedals.
My point is that I do not believe for a second that Toyota has a real problem. The brakes work. They'll stop the vehicle. Iff (i.e., if and only if) the "problem" were real then I DO have the presence of mind to disengage drive to the wheels. I am not at all convinced that is what we're facing...
John_Wayne777
03-10-10, 08:01
I'm not sure if people are taught to stop thinking in critical situations, or if that many people are mentally unable to respond to the unknown.
I'm sure abject panic has a lot to do with it.
I'm also pretty sure that people see the possibility of it in the news and are either so psychologically suggestible that they reproduce the results, or so opportunistic that they reproduce the results in hopes of cashing in.
Hell, if I thought I could get a million dollars out of it you might see me on TV balling my eyes out about how scared I was that my Charger developed a mind of its own.
John_Wayne777
03-10-10, 08:05
the new way to get rich SUE Toyota !!!
It's highly unlikely that the individuals with Toyota issues will get rich. The lawfirm that puts together the class action suit, on the other hand, will probably make pornographic amounts of money by taking their chunk of the eventual damages. 20-40% of a class action suit is going to be a hefty chunk of change.
ForTehNguyen
03-10-10, 10:11
That might work but it might also damage or destroy the engine if it continues to rev higher. I suppose that's better than a serious crash and better than sitting there doing nothing, but it probably isn't the ideal response.
USE THE DAMN BRAKE. You know, that big pedal in the middle? Every car on the road is designed to be able to outbrake its engine. Slow down and pull over, stop the damn thing and shut it off.
cars have had rev limiters for a long time, the computer it cuts the fuel momentarily when the rpms gets too high
The best part about this 'recall' is that the vast majority of related complaints have occurred AFTER the 'recall'.
A recall is generally reserved for: here is a manufacturing defect, it causes this problem, here we have it reproduced, here is the fix.
In this case, the problem cannot be reproduced, no defect has been identified but this recall has a fix?
On a side note, I saw a story about Chrysler airbags not going off when they should. Take it immediately to your dealer for an 'upgrade'. Yeap, we're that dumb.
Now every subnormal on the planet driving a toyota that drives like an idiot and wrecks said toyota will file a claim.
I am betting that the latest Califonia Prius accelerator issue is a fraud. Let's see.
ForTehNguyen
03-10-10, 10:36
I am betting that the latest Califonia Prius accelerator issue is a fraud. Let's see.
Things that dont pass the smell test:
23 minute long 911 call yet he didnt press the button for 3 seconds to turn the car off? All the while driving 90+ mph mind you
Prius have brake override to maxmize regenerative braking - its on youtube
Any car made in the past 20-30 years can outpower the engine
This guy had to have a cop drive up next to him on the patrol cars PA and tell him to press the brake hard and use the parking brake
The car "surged" forward? This car is a Prius, 0-60 in an agonizing 10 seconds or so.
Guys a moron, no amount of engineering can prevent an accident especially when the operator doesnt use the tools at their own disposal
:p
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49183
:p
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49183
Too ****ing funny man, I am dying in my office...
Time to revoke his non-stupid persons card. If he ever had one.
ForTehNguyen
03-10-10, 12:20
Yes, I know that. It's still a terrible idea to have your engine pegged at redline, bouncing off the rev limiter, for any significant period of time. Though like I said, it's probably better than a high speed crash.
actually the prius while in neutral will be idling even if you have the gas pedal pushed down. It also has a brake override too where it ignores the gas input if the brake is pressed. This is a 2008 prius the same year as Sikes prius.
http://sharing.theflip.com/session/9773c358173490d9e5bda837e1c08184/video/11407344
Some of these stories sound kinda fishy.....I would agree.
I could see the possibility where the ECM has a throttle stuck failure and for some reason the controller is unable to recognize or enable a trans shift to neutral (this is not a mechanical linkage either).....this could probably be either software or hardware related. It would depend on how Toyota has their system configured.
ForTehNguyen
03-10-10, 14:03
Some of these stories sound kinda fishy.....I would agree.
I could see the possibility where the ECM has a throttle stuck failure and for some reason the controller is unable to recognize or enable a trans shift to neutral (this is not a mechanical linkage either).....this could probably be either software or hardware related. It would depend on how Toyota has their system configured.
however you would think that with the 10s of millions of vehicles made and sold around the world, that if this was a defect youd see a lot more of them. Funny how they decide to come out of the woodwork after the recall. All of the complaints seem to happen in the good ol USA despite these cars sold in Europe and other countries.
JBecker 72
03-10-10, 15:59
Yes, I know that. It's still a terrible idea to have your engine pegged at redline, bouncing off the rev limiter, for any significant period of time. Though like I said, it's probably better than a high speed crash.
your life is worth much more than an engine, remember that.
ForTehNguyen
03-10-10, 16:22
Great. I'm not talking about a 2008 Prius. I'm taking about cars in general.
engine wont blow up because it hit redline, as long as the car is lubricated well, redline isnt a problem.
engine wont blow up because it hit redline, as long as the car is lubricated well, redline isnt a problem.
I don't think it matters what I post, you're just going to keep responding. I don't want my engine bouncing off the rev limiter. Using the brakes is a better response to this sort of situation for any number of reasons. That's all I can say.
Everyone makes things harder than they need to be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOMYjiCiTYg&feature=player_embedded
D. Christopher
03-10-10, 22:55
Thanks ForTehNguyen, you make sense.
I've heard of "Save the planet" and "Save the whales", but "Save the engines?" What kind of person thinks of the engine before their own life or the lives of innocent people? I'll tell you what kind of person, one who should never be allowed behind the wheel of a car. Because just like a drunk, their decision making process is all screwed up!
Nathan_Bell
03-11-10, 07:57
I don't think it matters what I post, you're just going to keep responding. I don't want my engine bouncing off the rev limiter. Using the brakes is a better response to this sort of situation for any number of reasons. That's all I can say.
No one said not to use the brakes.
If you have the vehicle in neutral, yup it is going to be singing, might even pop. What the engine will not be doing while it is testing its maximum thermal capacity, is trying to accelerate the vehicle. You do remember that the goal here is to get a runaway vehicle stopped?
While I believe a number of these incidents are legitimate, the cynical side of me suspects many if not most folks reporting this are looking for a free car...
Thanks ForTehNguyen, you make sense.
I've heard of "Save the planet" and "Save the whales", but "Save the engines?" What kind of person thinks of the engine before their own life or the lives of innocent people? I'll tell you what kind of person, one who should never be allowed behind the wheel of a car. Because just like a drunk, their decision making process is all screwed up!
What about a gun? :D
ForTehNguyen
03-11-10, 17:51
Op-Ed Contributor - Sudden Acceleration Often Caused By Drivers - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html)
By RICHARD A. SCHMIDT
Published: March 10, 2010
Marina del Rey, Calif.
THE Obama administration has said that it may require automakers to install “smart pedals” on all new cars. This kind of system — already used in BMWs, Chryslers, Volkswagens and some of the newest Toyotas — deactivates the car’s accelerator when the brake pedal is pressed so that the car can stop safely even if its throttle sticks open.
The idea is to prevent the kind of sudden acceleration that has recently led to the recall of millions of Toyotas. Federal safety regulators have received complaints asserting that this problem has caused accidents resulting in 52 deaths in Toyotas since 2000. Smart pedals might help prevent more such accidents if the cause of unintended acceleration turns out to be some vehicle defect.
But based on my experience in the 1980s helping investigate unintended acceleration in the Audi 5000, I suspect that smart pedals cannot solve the problem. The trouble, unbelievable as it may seem, is that sudden acceleration is very often caused by drivers who press the gas pedal when they intend to press the brake.
From the mid-1980s until 2000, thousands of incidents of sudden acceleration were reported in all makes and models of cars (and buses, tractors and golf carts). Then, as now, the incidents were relatively rare among car crashes generally, but they were nevertheless frequent and dangerous enough to upset automakers, drivers and the news media.
I looked into more than 150 cases of unintended acceleration in the 1980s, many of which became the subject of lawsuits against automakers. In those days, Audi, like Toyota today, received by far the most complaints. (I testified in court for Audi on many occasions. I have not worked for Toyota on unintended acceleration, though I did consult for the company seven years ago on another matter.)
In these cases, the problem typically happened when the driver first got into the car and started it. After turning on the ignition, the driver would intend to press lightly on the brake pedal while shifting from park to drive (or reverse), and suddenly the car would leap forward (or backward). Drivers said that continued pressing on the brake would not stop the car; it would keep going until it crashed. Drivers believed that something had gone wrong in the acceleration system, and that the brakes had failed.
But when engineers examined these vehicles post-crash, they found nothing that could account for what the drivers had reported. The trouble occurred in cars small and large, cheap and expensive, with and without cruise control or electronic engine controls, and with carburetors, fuel injection and even diesel engines. The only thing they had in common was an automatic transmission. An investigation by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration found no electro-mechanical defects to explain the problem. Nor did similar government studies in Canada and Japan or any number of private studies.
In the Toyota situation today, some have suggested that unintended acceleration has been caused by floor mats or sticking throttles, but there is considerable doubt about these explanations, and the search for the smoking gun continues. One thought is that computerized engine management systems or electronic controls may be to blame. And so it is interesting to note that unintended acceleration in the 1980s happened before the arrival of drive-by-wire controls and computerized engine-management systems.
Back then, many of us who worked in fields like ergonomics, human performance and psychology suspected that these unintended-acceleration events might have a human component. We noticed that the complaints were far more frequent among older drivers (in a General Motors study, 60-to-70-year-olds had about six times the rate of complaints as 20-to-30-year-olds), drivers who had little experience with the specific car involved (parking-lot attendants, car-wash workers, rental-car patrons) and people of relatively short stature. :rolleyes:
Several researchers hypothesized how a driver, intending to apply the brake pedal to keep the car from creeping, would occasionally press the accelerator instead. Then, surprised that the car moved so much, he would try pressing harder. Of course, if his right foot was actually on the accelerator, the throttle would open and the car would move faster. This would then lead the driver to press the “brake” harder still, and to bring about even more acceleration. Eventually, the car would be at full throttle, until it crashed. The driver’s foot would be all the way to the floor, giving him the impression that the brakes had failed.
In the cases that went to court, jurors naturally asked, why would a driver with decades of driving experience suddenly mistake the accelerator for the brake? And why would the episode last so long — often 6 to 10 seconds or more? Wouldn’t that be ample time to shut off the ignition, shift to neutral or engage the parking brake?
First, in these situations, the driver does not really confuse the accelerator and the brake. Rather, the limbs do not do exactly what the brain tells them to. Noisy neuromuscular processes intervene to make the action slightly different from the one intended. The driver intends to press the brake, but once in a while these neuromuscular processes cause the foot to deviate from the intended trajectory — just as a basketball player who makes 90 percent of his free throws sometimes misses the hoop. This effect would be enhanced by the driver being slightly misaligned in the seat when he first gets in the car.
The answer to the second question is that, when a car accelerates unexpectedly, the driver often panics, and just presses the brake harder and harder. Drivers typically do not shut off the ignition, shift to neutral or apply the parking brake.
In 1989, the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration concluded that the incidents of unintended acceleration by the Audi 5000 were mostly caused by this kind of pedal error — not some electro-mechanical defect in the vehicle. To fix the problem, Audi designed something called an automatic shift lock, which, when the car is being started, keeps the transmission in park unless and until the brake pedal is depressed. If the driver should press the accelerator instead of the brake, the vehicle remains safely in park.
(In a car with a manual transmission, a driver is naturally prevented from making a simple pedal error, because even if his right foot goes to the accelerator instead of the brake, the car still will not move unless he also intentionally lifts his left foot from the clutch.)
Audi ultimately gave the world’s other automakers the rights to the patent on the automatic shift lock and by the mid-1990s virtually all new cars had adopted the feature or some variant of it. Incidents of sudden acceleration when people started their cars dropped sharply. The shift lock not only made people safer but also provided evidence for the hypothesis that most of the problems had been caused by driver error.
Yet the automatic shift lock did not entirely do away with sudden acceleration incidents — as the Toyota problems illustrate. The fix now championed by the Obama administration could work in situations in which there is an actual vehicle defect. It would tell the car that if it receives signals to both accelerate and brake, the accelerator should go dead so that the brake alone will work.
But this smart-pedal system can be of no use if the driver is simply pressing the accelerator and not touching the brake. The unintended acceleration — and the crash — would still occur.
What the smart pedal may do, however, is finally give us a sense of whether sudden acceleration tends to stem from operator error. If the reports of acceleration continue (and the smart pedals work properly), then there will be nothing and no one left to blame but the driver.
Richard A. Schmidt is a professor emeritus of psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles.
thopkins22
03-12-10, 01:24
There are driving techniques that involve the brake and the gas pedals being depressed at the same time. Land Rover teaches this in it's offroad driving classes.
I generally don't like things that remove control from the driver...from automatic headlights to "smart pedals."
There are driving techniques that involve the brake and the gas pedals being depressed at the same time. Land Rover teaches this in it's offroad driving classes.
I generally don't like things that remove control from the driver...from automatic headlights to "smart pedals."
I'm in agreement with you. I'd hate to see fuel cutoff when one depresses both pedals simultaneously. Well, on a Prius I could NOT care less but on performance-oriented vehicles that would make it a "no buy" if there were other alternatives.
I also like insanely mechanical cars like my Integra Type R and lust for rudely mechanical devices like Porsche 911 GT3s and Lotus Elise. They'll do what YOU ask of them even if it means your demise.
crusader377
03-12-10, 10:43
This is my .02 on the Toyota problem. Although I do believe that some Toyotas may have had problems, I think it has now been overblown in severity of the problems and many of these acceleration problems could have been caused by driver errors. Also, many automakers have recalls that never receive attention from the government or the press. My cynical side tells me that the Toyota issue is more about politics and business rather than safety. My reasoning for this is that the federal government has about $50 Billion dollars invested in GM and Chrysler and their sales are still very weak and they are still loosing money. I think the current administration and congress has a strong reason to overstate Toyota's problems in order to drive more people into GMs and Chrysler showrooms.
I don't think it matters what I post, you're just going to keep responding. I don't want my engine bouncing off the rev limiter. Using the brakes is a better response to this sort of situation for any number of reasons. That's all I can say.
This is ridiculous. If your motor gets damaged who cares? Especially with a Toyota right now, you'll be in a new car, let alone a new motor. Hell, put it into the guardrail if you have too, just stop the damn thing. People who think like this shouldn't be driving. There is no reason to not put the car in nuetral. If the car had a manual trans are you saying you wouldn't push in the clutch? That is beyond ridiculous. Cars and engines are disposable, peoples lives are not.
I guess the way we say so many people are sheep :)
we now see how the sheep drive or should I say CANT drive :)
I find it amazing at the same time I just am thinking this is the way it is anymore
I'm in agreement with you. I'd hate to see fuel cutoff when one depresses both pedals simultaneously. Well, on a Prius I could NOT care less but on performance-oriented vehicles that would make it a "no buy" if there were other alternatives.
I also like insanely mechanical cars like my Integra Type R and lust for rudely mechanical devices like Porsche 911 GT3s and Lotus Elise. They'll do what YOU ask of them even if it means your demise.
Hopefully they won't apply this idiocy to manual transmissions, so those of us who know how to drive them (a dying breed these days) can still do heel-toe downshifts.
The only other reasons to two-foot the pedals that I am familiar with are:
1. Brake-torquing a slushbox for the best acceleration times.
2. Keeping the revs up when stopped with your foot on the brake because your engine has an idle problem and stalls if you don't keep the revs up. Of course, your choice of cam timing might have something to do with this...
3. Front wheel drive rally car driving. You keep your right foot planted on the gas during turns and use your left to hit the brake hard enough to get the rears approach lock-up and pitch it into oversteer. Kind of like a handbrake turn but easier to modulate.
4. I don't do the off road 4x4 thing so I'm not sure about that. I assume you want to keep your left foot on the brake when creeping over difficult terrain so that you don't "slip" when transitioning between pedals.
Hopefully they won't apply this idiocy to manual transmissions, so those of us who know how to drive them (a dying breed these days) can still do heel-toe downshifts.
The only other reasons to two-foot the pedals that I am familiar with are:
1. Brake-torquing a slushbox for the best acceleration times.
2. Keeping the revs up when stopped with your foot on the brake because your engine has an idle problem and stalls if you don't keep the revs up. Of course, your choice of cam timing might have something to do with this...
3. Front wheel drive rally car driving. You keep your right foot planted on the gas during turns and use your left to hit the brake hard enough to get the rears approach lock-up and pitch it into oversteer. Kind of like a handbrake turn but easier to modulate.
4. I don't do the off road 4x4 thing so I'm not sure about that. I assume you want to keep your left foot on the brake when creeping over difficult terrain so that you don't "slip" when transitioning between pedals.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
That might work but it might also damage or destroy the engine if it continues to rev higher. I suppose that's better than a serious crash and better than sitting there doing nothing, but it probably isn't the ideal response.
USE THE DAMN BRAKE. You know, that big pedal in the middle? Every car on the road is designed to be able to outbrake its engine. Slow down and pull over, stop the damn thing and shut it off.
It will work, all driving schools I have attended (2 wheel, 4 wheel and tracked) have taught me to disengage the power to the wheels, overrevving the engine is not as important as losing control of your vehicle.
goodoleboy
03-12-10, 21:29
I've got a 2010 Prius and couldn't be happier with it. I got about 480 miles out of the last tank of gas and averaged over 52 mpg with it (the sticker only claims 51). It ain't no hot rod, but it gets awesome milage.
My only regret driving it is everybody thinks I'm a tree hugging liberal. Maybe next deer season, I'll get one and strap it down to the roof and drive around town with it.
Just because I own a Prius doesn't mean I won't burn tires on Earth Day, I just hate buying gas.
here's a great video from you tube on how to stop a prius...NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c
here's a great video from you tube on how to stop a prius...NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c
That goofball already posted his video here.
Guess you are getting your desired publicity, Gasitman. Aye ca-rumba. ;)
:p
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49183
:D:D:D
That was good!
I would not even think twice to shift to neutral. Rev limiters work well. That is still the best way to go for the average person.
I also hate it how they say you will lose control if you turn the engine off while driving. In my short 11 years of driving, I have had the engine suddenly turn off due to mechanical breakdown twice! Once in my 2006 corolla while doing 70mph in freeway traffic, and once in my 84 toyota pickup. If the engine turns off, you can steer and stop just fine. You just won't be able to turn sharply or stop abruply without more effort.
Didn't these guys ever have a girlfriend that you dropped off late at night so you coast down the street with the engine and lights off?:confused: The secret is to only turn the key one click to turn the engine off. If you turn more than one click the steering wheel may lock up.
I have my doubts about only stomping on the brakes though. If you are in a 300hp lexus which got up to 90mph, lets say on a downhill slope in the summertime, and your brakes are already hot because you drive like a jackass, you will probably experience severe brake fade and wont be able to stop. It would be easier and much safer to just shift to neutral.
D. Christopher
03-14-10, 15:12
Car & Driver has disproven all claims about cars not being able to overpower the engine with just the brakes and stop the car. They stopped a V-6 Toyota Camry from 60mph in 435 feet while at full throttle using only the brakes. They stopped a Rausch Mustang with 540 horsepower in 903 feet. The Pruis has a little over 100 horsepower and can be stopped using nothing but the brakes, and it has a "B" or braking position designed to use the engine as a brake for downhill travel so you don't have to ride the brake pedal and wear out the brakes prematurely or boil the fluid out of the lines, causing a complete brake system failure.
Now for the real kicker, this Sikes guy in San Diego declared bankruptcy in 2008 and is in debt to the tune of around $700,000.00. Among his creditors, Toyota Financial Services! This guy has a history of filing insurance claims for stolen property that are very questionable to say the least. A man named William Sweet dissolved his paralegal services business he started with Sikes over the "numerous incidents of fraud and theft" involving Sikes. When Sweet heard Sikes name on the news he said "As soon as I heard the name Jim Sikes I immediately woke up out of a dead sleep and thought "uh oh what is this guy up to now" He's trying to do a scam, and get in on the lawsuit for the Toyota thing, that's immediately what I thought."
Sikes told the 911 operator he had both hands on the wheel and was afraid to take a hand off to put the car in neutral, the operator repeatedly asked him to do this but he ignored her requests. (It has since been learned that Sikes was holding a phone in one hand for much of the time.) He also has claimed he reached down and grabbed the gas pedal and tried to move it from its stuck position but said "It wouldn't move at all, it was stationary." The 911 operator asked him numerous times to hit the ignition switch, be he said he was afraid to.
I'm posting this from my phone so I apologize that I can't post a link right now, but do a search for Michael Fumento, evidently he has done the work the "Journalists" and "Investigative Reporters" were too busy to do. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, right? Toyota and the legal system should make an example of this guy if turns out he tried to take advantage of this situation.
I have never owned a Toyota but they have several models that I have looked at over the years and wouldn't mind owning. I wouldn't think twice about buying one today. Over the next year there are going to be some "once in a lifetime" deals on most models of Toyota, including free financing, 0% interest, and 2 or more years of free service on a fully loaded model of your choice. Make sure the gas pedal, pedal rod, and linkages are correct and don't have defects, then make sure the correct floormat is properly installed and secured with hooks or velcro so that it doesn't "submarine" and the only problems left will be the occasional elderly driver, drivers who have no situational awareness, and scammers. You can't make anything foolproof, they'll just make better fools! Stay safe.
Submariner
03-14-10, 15:51
I've got a 2010 Prius and couldn't be happier with it. I got about 480 miles out of the last tank of gas and averaged over 52 mpg with it (the sticker only claims 51). It ain't no hot rod, but it gets awesome milage.
My only regret driving it is everybody thinks I'm a tree hugging liberal. Maybe next deer season, I'll get one and strap it down to the roof and drive around town with it.
Just because I own a Prius doesn't mean I won't burn tires on Earth Day, I just hate buying gas.
DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!
We have a winner! We own two and are getting a third. Just like M4's: interchangeable parts, same manual of arms, etc.
For M4arc. The Suburban is gonzo as the family out grew it.
Still using BTU's to make ice to play hockey in VA Beach? :D
John_Wayne777
03-14-10, 15:57
I'm posting this from my phone so I apologize that I can't post a link right now, but do a search for Michael Fumento, evidently he has done the work the "Journalists" and "Investigative Reporters" were too busy to do. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, right? Toyota and the legal system should make an example of this guy if turns out he tried to take advantage of this situation.
When I heard the story for the first time my very first thought was that it was some idiot trying to cash in on the Toyota PR problem. I never believed the account he gave or the stories written.
I don't know the inner workings of Toyota so I can't say whether or not there is a real issue out there with their vehicles or not...but I do feel safe in asserting that it's not what the media has blown it up to be. There may be a grain of truth at the core of this pearl of greed and stupidity, but we'll never get to see it with all this nonsense in the way.
ForTehNguyen
03-14-10, 17:21
just listen to the 911 call its 23 minutes long and sounds so damn fake. Its just painful of facepalm to listen to. The 911 operator had freaking nerves and patience of titanium to deal with this crap
http://priuschat.com/news/runaway-prius-911-call-released-listen-here
Yeah, these surprise me when the driver has the presence of mind to dial 911 and have a chat with the operator while doing 100 in the freeway, but doesn't have the intelligence to put the vehicle into neutral and apply the brakes!?!?!?
Idiots shouldn't have a driver's license.
Cameron
I am with you 100% WTF! Why the hell would you dial, 911. At least one of the people who did died on line announcing his speed and burning breaks to the dispatcher. Again WTF. I looked at my wife and said, honey if that ever happens to you, just put the car in neutral and let the engine blow.
To think that 911 is going to be able to take care of you is sad.
ForTehNguyen
03-15-10, 17:07
For the brake override to intervene, BOTH the brake and gas pedals have to be pressed more than 50%. So rejoice, you can still brake torque!
And Sikes is a dumbass
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/15/toyota-agrees-with-nhtsa-investigation-of-runaway-prius-but-not/
Toyota agrees with NHTSA investigation of runaway Prius, but not calling Sykes a liar
by John Neff (RSS feed) on Mar 15th 2010 at 4:27PM
Toyota walked a fine line this afternoon when it revealed that its own two-day investigation of last week's runaway Prius near San Diego, CA had reached the same conclusion as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's investigation. That is, the brakes on Jim Sykes' 2008 Toyota Prius should have been able to stop the car. Toyota did not, however, go so far as to call Sykes a liar.
The investigation determined that the front brake pads were worn so far down from overheating that the rotors were scraping the pads' metal backings. According to investigators, this could have only happened if the brake pedal were applied lightly (less than 50% or so) for an extended period of time, not pressed firmly to the floor as Sykes claimed he was doing. Only by "dragging" the brakes lightly could they become so overheated and worn, as firmly pressing the brake pedal while the car is accelerating would engage the brake override system that cuts engine power.
Though asked repeatedly if they had concluded that Sykes was lying, representatives for Toyota insisted that was not their judgment to make and they could only say that the investigation's findings were not consistent with the scenario that Sykes describes.
Follow the jump for Toyota's official statement in which it details all eight points of its findings.
[Source: Toyota]
Show full PR text
The accelerator pedal was tested and found to be working normally with no mechanical binding or friction. It should be noted that the Prius is not subject to a recall for sticking accelerator pedals and the Prius component is made by a different supplier than the one recalled.
The front brakes showed severe wear and damage from overheating. The rear brakes and parking brake were in good condition and functional.
A Toyota carpeted floor mat of the correct type for the vehicle was installed but not secured to the retention hooks. It was not found to be interfering or even touching the accelerator pedal.
The pushbutton power switch worked normally and shut the vehicle off when depressed for 3 seconds as the 911 operator advised Mr. Sikes to do.
The shift lever also worked normally and neutral could be selected. The neutral position is clearly marked and can be easily engaged by moving the lever left to the "N" marking.
There were no diagnostic trouble codes found in the power management computer, nor was the dashboard malfunction indicator light activated. The hybrid self-diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated on-and- off applications of both the accelerator and the brake pedals.
After examination of individual components, the front brakes were replaced and the vehicle was test driven, during which the vehicle was observed to be functioning normally.
During testing, the brakes were purposely abused by continuous light application in order to overheat them. The vehicle could be safely stopped by means of the brake pedal, even when overheated.
The Prius braking system uses both conventional hydraulic friction brakes and a regenerative braking system which switches the electric drive motors into brakes to generate electricity.
The system features a sophisticated self- protection function which cuts engine power if moderate brake pedal pressure is applied and the accelerator pedal is depressed more than approximately 50 percent, in effect providing a form of "brake override."
This function, which is intended to protect the system from overload and possible damage, was found to be functioning normally during the preliminary field examination.
Toyota engineers believe that it would be extremely difficult for the Prius to be driven at a continuous high speed with more than light brake-pedal pressure, and that the assertion that the vehicle could not be stopped with the brakes is fundamentally inconsistent with basic vehicle design and the investigation observations.
These findings suggest that there should be further examination of Mr. Sikes account of the events of March 8.
NHTSA investigators were present during Toyota's examination, and are conducting their own investigation of the vehicle and its performance. Toyota's examination was also observed by a congressional staff member.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.