KAC RAS real or fake? [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

View Full Version : KAC RAS real or fake?

dubuque

03-09-10, 19:02

i've been doing some online reading and saw their is a big question about the authenticity of some of the rail systems out their. please coment about what you should look for, markings, different spellings, anything the unsuspecting buyer should really watch for. pictures would be great for comparing real and fake rail systems. having just bought a rail from a gun show i'm intrigued to find out the truth.

militarymoron

03-09-10, 19:25

it'd be easier if you just post pics of the rail you bought so someone who knows the difference can see whether it's the genuine article or not.

dubuque

03-09-10, 19:50

first of all I don't have a camera to post pictures, sorry. second, i was just asking in general what to look for. it's more for the publics intrest rather than if i have the real deal or not. i think i have the real deal. i just see more and more post about the authenticity of the rails and am very interest in knowing. I plan to buy more rails in the furture and i don't have any experience with knight's rails. the only rails that i own are troy rails. thanks for the reponse.

Belmont31R

03-09-10, 20:04

Where did you buy it from?

What markings are on it?

DaBears_85

03-09-10, 21:54

The discrepancies between a real and a fake RAS can be numerous and vary from knockoff to knockoff. Sometimes a fake can be spotted by something as obvious as having odd numbers for the rail slot markings (a real one is even-numbered). Other times you'll need to be more diligent in your search.

Here is a fake one, for example (note the odd-numbered rail markings):

http://www.wgcshop.com/pcart/enlargeimage.php?enlargeimage=vfc_acc_rthf_l.jpg

An authentic KAC RAS will always have the following etched on it:

KNIGHT'S ARMAMENT
COMPANY
Titusville, FL or Vero Beach, FL (their old location)
Cage No. 1S002 (I would imagine ones produced from their old location would have a different cage no.)

They will also have this patent number:

5,826,363.

Hope this is of help to someone.

J

dubuque

03-10-10, 19:32

Where did you buy it from?

What markings are on it?

bought it at a VA gun show

KNIGHT'S ARMAMENT
COMPANY
Titusville, FL

But like i posted before, this really isn't about the authenticity of my own rails, but just the rails in general.

whiterabbit05

03-10-10, 20:25

If the price is too good to be true, then it's probably a knockoff.

bkb0000

03-10-10, 20:36

If the price is too good to be true, then it's probably a knockoff.

they release "seconds" for incredibly good deals from time to time- it's not uncommon to see real RAS kits for between $150 and $200. there's a thread on some that i think Grant got ahold of right now.

there are, however, fakes floating around out there. search ebay for "KAC RAS" and they'll pop up all over the place.

i suspect i could spot most fakes, if i held them in hand, just by differences in quality. if anyone could pop out a complete RAS kit of the same quality as KAC, KAC would go out of business pretty quick. so really it's just gonna come down to a wee bit of experience and discretion on the buyer's part. if you're not familiar with the real RAS kit, don't drop your money on a guess.

ETA: OP... if you want me to post pictures of any particular detail, i'd be happy to. i'm sure most guys here would too. which kit did you get?

cptx123

03-10-10, 20:40

I have been finding real kac rail sets new in box with all covers and vert grip 100.00 to 150.00 here in the Austin area.

bkb0000

03-10-10, 20:43

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=RAS-BLEM

dis be what i'm talkin about. complete kit for $175

cptx123

03-11-10, 09:15

http://www.knightarmco.com/shop2/index.php?categoryID=129 they are 150.00 on the knights website from what I see.

04rwon

02-24-11, 22:05

Bringing it back from the dead. I was wondering if someone could tell me if these are real Knights Armament rails. From the research I have done the only thing missing is the cage number but its got the correct patent number. Im confident the vert grip is real, but Im not sure about the rails. These are the pics the seller sent me:

http://i53.tinypic.com/25hlc3t.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/ap71a1.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/sfkrx4.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2a91enk.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2epovas.jpg

Arbiter

02-25-11, 00:00

You look good to go with that one.

DaBears_85

02-25-11, 04:20

Bringing it back from the dead. I was wondering if someone could tell me if these are real Knights Armament rails. From the research I have done the only thing missing is the cage number but its got the correct patent number. Im confident the vert grip is real, but Im not sure about the rails. These are the pics the seller sent me:

You look good to go with that one.

I agree with Arbiter, everything there looks legit.

J

04rwon

02-25-11, 07:42

DaBears_85

02-25-11, 09:22

Even without the cage number? I saw another with it thats why i question this one. Btw does anyone have any expierence with the 2nd or blemished rails in knights online store? How bads the blemish? Is it a fitmenent issue?

Mine, an older RAS, doesn't have a cage no. either.

I don't have any personal experience with KAC's factory seconds, but from what I've read here it usually has something to do with either the tint of the anodizing or the laser-etching being a bit off. Whatever their aesthetic defects may be, they are in no way a physically defective rail.

Here's some threads on KAC factory seconds:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37225

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8327

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51038

J

Kramerica

09-25-11, 19:18

BUMP! I'd like someone to authenticate a potential buy... Here are the pics he sent me. Going for $240..

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/vietboy1st/P1000228.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/vietboy1st/P1000227.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/vietboy1st/P1000226.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/vietboy1st/P1000225.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/vietboy1st/P1000224.jpg

mvician

09-26-11, 01:26

looks like my medium length FF RAS

Kramerica

09-26-11, 17:10

looks like my medium length FF RAS

Ok, just send funds via paypal

5102Yuma

09-26-11, 17:16

Looks real to me, I've worked with these on military rifles for years. Looks legit.

Jack_Bauer

11-17-11, 19:11

Guys, why are some KAC M4 RAS frames and ribs marked 1S002 and others are not? I mean the real ones not the fakes.

ohiorifleman

02-10-12, 09:56

Sorry I am reviving a necro post- received a KAC M4 rail off an Ebay seller that he reported to be authentic as did the listing. I was in a hurry and bought it for 120.00 BIN which is not too far off the authentic M5 I bought earlier this year. The rail is going on an M-4 being presented to a Vet next Sat. as a thank-you for their service. I got the rail out of the package Tuesday night and removed the rail covers only to find the slot markings odd numbered with the lowest numbers at the muzzle end, everything else looks pretty legitimate including cage code,patent numbers, man. date, name and address. I am impressed at what lengths people will go to, to make a knock-off, but why not get the slot markings correct as well? I will post pics later tonight. Anyway I could not bring myself to put this on a rifle period so I ordered a Troy rail to take it's place. Moral of this story is to never stray from the EE or site sponsors here.

ohiorifleman

02-10-12, 10:01

Guys, why are some KAC M4 RAS frames and ribs marked 1S002 and others are not? I mean the real ones not the fakes.

That is their cage code, The rail covers on the supposed fake one I just received are marked Knights Armament 1S002 and the covers off my authentic one are marked Knights Armament Vero Beach, FL

motorolahamm

02-11-12, 06:45

motorolahamm

02-11-12, 06:47

That is their cage code, The rail covers on the supposed fake one I just received are marked Knights Armament 1S002 and the covers off my authentic one are marked Knights Armament Vero Beach, FL

As for cage code not all stuff will have the cage code. Mil contract versions will , but if it was marketed for the civilian line they may not unless they were contract overruns. A cage code is just a way for the Govt. or purchasing agency to order. and each Govt. Contract has a cage code.

ohiorifleman

02-11-12, 10:57

I spent a lot of time getting this verified but apparently the rail I have that I thought originally is a fake is a current Navy contract RIS (that has RAS features) and yes they did order them with odd numbered markings starting at the muzzle end.

mvician

02-11-12, 11:59

RIS = odd numbers
RAS = even numbers

Correct :cool:

mohunter55

03-08-12, 22:14

slots marks sounds like a KAC blemish rail look on there web site. theses are just rails with errors made so they sell them cheaper .

anyone know what type of errors are on these blemished rails? I'm thinking about buying one?

kajen

03-09-12, 07:56

ive been playing airsoft for 20 years now and build and tune up guns everyday.. there are fakes on the market that are so good that there is no difference but the really cheap ones often have some detail that gives it away ..
remember many airsoftcompanies do licensed copies that are exact matches also ..

i can find you CNC machined very nice knockoffs of all the major mfg´s that if you saw it you would never know it was a fake .. and by experience the differences on the good knockoffs and the real is next to none .. many of the good chinafakes are CNC milled with the same tolerances and from same 7075-t6 aluminium etc and typeIII mil-spec anodized just like the real ones but they cost 30-50 bucks instead of 300-500

ive been selling alot of these
to airofters in many countries i even have a couple real noveskes .. cant tell the difference .. fit and quality is the same i even found that the knockoffs anodizing sometimes are better and more wearresistant

so if u ever want to be 100% that ur getting genuine parts .. buy from a trusted source ..

kajen

03-09-12, 08:00

anyone know what type of errors are on these blemished rails? I'm thinking about buying one?

mostly its just some colordifference in the anodizing ie. a dark spot or a letter or some text thats not even etc .. never a major thing and never something that will effect function

Stickman

03-09-12, 12:33

ive been playing airsoft for 20 years now and build and tune up guns everyday.. there are fakes on the market that are so good that there is no difference but the really cheap ones often have some detail that gives it away ..
remember many airsoftcompanies do licensed copies that are exact matches also ..

i can find you CNC machined very nice knockoffs of all the major mfg´s that if you saw it you would never know it was a fake .. and by experience the differences on the good knockoffs and the real is next to none .. many of the good chinafakes are CNC milled with the same tolerances and from same 7075-t6 aluminium etc and typeIII mil-spec anodized just like the real ones but they cost 30-50 bucks instead of 300-500

ive been selling alot of these http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/386041801-NOVESKE-10-inch-Handguard-Rail-System-Brown-free-ship-wholesalers.html
to airofters in many countries i even have a couple real noveskes .. cant tell the difference .. fit and quality is the same i even found that the knockoffs anodizing sometimes are better and more wearresistant

so if u ever want to be 100% that ur getting genuine parts .. buy from a trusted source ..

I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a minute you are getting the same or better quality at 1/10th the price by buying airsoft, not even top of the line airsoft components.

kajen

03-09-12, 12:49

I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a minute you are getting the same or better quality at 1/10th the price by buying airsoft, not even top of the line airsoft components.

then dont ... i have nothing invested in you beleiving it or not .. im just stating my opinion based on personal experience .. having sold 100+ various rail front sets both airsoft and non airsoft..

a rail made from exact same material within same specs and tolerances made on a CNC machine does not get poorer quality because it comes from china ..
if the machine is programmed correctly with same specs and tolerances and loaded with exact same materials the machine based in the us wont make it better than the one based in china

agree there comes ALOT of crap from china but alot of well made products do to .. hell ive seen DD rails that were out of specs and yes DD swapped it on the spot promptly and the chinese probably wont have the same service and the quality inspection is not as thorough so theres a greater chance you will get one that is out of spec etc, but at 1/10th odf the price many people can live with that

im not saying all the knockoff rails are good or even ok .. but some of them are just as good as the US made ones sorry to say, and im telling you i can fint 50 dollar noveske and DD knockoffs where you wont be able to tell the difference ..

even with the higher productioncost and materialcost in the US it does not cost DD or Noveske more than 50usd pr rail in massproduction .. and the chinese produce larger quantities and productioncost and materials are way lower .. that combined with the urge to sell ALOT at 50 dollars instead of few at 300 makes it that cheap ... and oh yeah .. the chinese knockoffcompanies dont have defensecontracts .. i remember clearly how the DD prices more than doubled when they got theirs

more and more people in europe are starting tu use chinese product on their guns because its ALOT cheaper .. some of it is just as good and you dont have to fight with US exportlaws and ITAR so im probably seeing more of the chinese copies here than you guys do in the US and ALOT have happened qualityvise over the last 5-6 yrs.. you can buy 50 dollar Eotech replicas that wont lose its zero when abused on a .308 and have the same MOA@100yrd standards as the real ones.. and no it probably wont last as long as a real eotech and i probably would not trust it in combat

main thing about chinese products is the lack of QC making the quality non-consistent .. but you can find ie.x rails that are just as good as any DD, noveske or any other name brand

these are CNC made in the states and the 3 i bought from him is no poorer quality than any big brand rails , perfect to specs and fit .. and i paid 109 dollars a piece he can sell them for that price and hes nowhere near the volume the big brands are, so im sure the cost for him is higher .. see my point?
http://www.cncguns.com/forum/index.php?topic=2386.msg15108#msg15108

Army Chief

03-09-12, 13:38

Kajen, I mean you no personal disrespect, and it isn't my purpose to be unkind, but the information you have presented here is dangerous and misleading. I understand that, to all appearances, the products you are endorsing would seem to provide a great value, and for Airsoft purposes, that argument likely holds some water. To go on to suggest that they are in any way serviceable for real-world applications on operational weapons is absolutely beyond the pale. You may wish to argue that the machining, metallurgy and design of these knock-offs compares favorably to the originals, but hard experience has taught us that it is a superficial resemblance at best. Consider it: if we are underwhelmed with most of what passes for "good kit" in the eyes of the typical AR shooter at a local gun show, you can imagine how we might feel about Airsoft parts. They are toys, not tools, and we are unwilling to see that line blurred based upon the opinions of a member who has a financial interest in bringing others around to his point of view.

If you wish to engage in a bit of axe-grinding over OE component costs, be my guest. If you care to explain why you feel that there is no real harm in rewarding patent infringement, have at it. If you think this is a good place to compare your gaming lifestyle to the operational requirements of the armed professionals and serious shooters with whom you have chosen to engage, feel free. I am re-opening the thread, but let me be manifestly clear about one thing: we are in no way open to any further discussion about Airsoft, knock-off or clone components. If you persist in this line of reasoning, you will be removed from the discussion. Please consider this fair warning, and accept it in the firm but friendly spirit in which it is offered.

Thanks,
AC

Iraqgunz

03-09-12, 13:44

kajen,

Providing links to airsoft garbage that you sell is prohibited as per the site rules.

We also don't condone airsoft crap on real firearms that may be used by people to defend themselves or on duty.

Please keep that stuff off of here.