View Full Version : Damaged Federal XM193
sureshot47
03-10-10, 11:51
New to the forum. Tons of great info. Im pretty new to the gun world and the info here has been a big help......Last week I purchased 1000 rds of Federal XM193. I just recieved it last night and I have a few issues with it. I have opened 5 boxes of 20 and have found 10rds with dents in the casing and 1 with a small crack in the neck of the casing. Is this normal? I tried to search to see if anyone else had this issue but I didnt find anything. I think I got a pretty good deal on the ammo but I dont feel like having 11% of my rounds damaged seems right, even if it is cheap. Maybe it isnt a big deal but I would love to hear your opinions. Also is this new brass? Its scuffed, scratched and has has some black gummy substace splattered all over the casings so I have a hard time seeing how it could be. Again I could just be ignorant of how these things work. My normal ammo purchasing experience is limited to going to walmart and buying a couple hundred rounds before I go shooting. I have never purchased anything in bulk before. Thanks for the help
Thomas M-4
03-10-10, 11:54
Dents on the case are normal shoot it dont think twice about it.
The small crack on the one could cause concern more than likely it would be fine to shoot if its not that bad but best bet would be just to toss that one into the garbage.
The black gummy stuff is water proof sealant its fine it wont cause a problem.
If they are individually boxed (20 round boxes) they should be in better shape than the bulk loose pack PD ammo.
But quality can go down when production numbers go up.
If you are not happy get in touch with the seller.
Dents on the case are normal shoot it dont think twice about it.
The small crack on the one could cause concern more than likely it would be fine to shoot if its not that bad but best bet would be just to toss that one into the garbage.
The black gummy stuff is water proof sealant its fine it wont cause a problem.
This is right on. They are rarely all perfect, don't let every little cosmetic flaw throw you.
But some may need to be disposed of, so if it looks that bad just toss it.
sureshot47
03-11-10, 22:21
Ok. Im fine with dents and dings. I just wanted to make sure they were not going to damage my rifle. So does anyone know if this is new brass? It just looks so dirty but i guess im just used to getting the shiney overpriced rounds from wal mart. Also im saving my brass for possible future reloading, is this stuff worth saving? Or am I better off leaving it and sticking to brass that is a little nicer?
hmm.. i've never paid a whole lot of attention to them, but i've shot a HELL of a lot of xm193, and i haven't noticed anything like what you're describing- a cracked neck is most certainly no go. dents should only be found in, at least in quantity, in remanned ammo- which xm193 is not. xm193 should be pretty new looking.. it's annealed, so the neck should appear tarnished- but other than that, it's generally bright shiny, new looking brass. the black gummy stuff is most likely neck sealant, and is a good thing- but it shouldnt be slopped all over the outside.
sounds like you got a shitty batch, to me. not sure what advice to give.. having found a crack, i think i'd be inclined to attempt a return, since there may be more. otherwise, inspect each round and make sure you've got your safety spex on when you shoot it.
hmm.. i've never paid a whole lot of attention to them, but i've shot a HELL of a lot of xm193, and i haven't noticed anything like what you're describing- a cracked neck is most certainly no go. dents should only be found in, at least in quantity, in remanned ammo- which xm193 is not. xm193 should be pretty new looking.. it's annealed, so the neck should appear tarnished- but other than that, it's generally bright shiny, new looking brass. the black gummy stuff is most likely neck sealant, and is a good thing- but it shouldnt be slopped all over the outside.
sounds like you got a shitty batch, to me. not sure what advice to give.. having found a crack, i think i'd be inclined to attempt a return, since there may be more. otherwise, inspect each round and make sure you've got your safety spex on when you shoot it.
Yes, the cracked necks are normally associated with "bulk XM193" or XM193 PD. Rarely if ever the boxed type have this issue.
in my boxed American Eagle xm193, I regularly find some dents and the rare seated crooked bullet. All has shot just fine.
sureshot47
03-12-10, 11:22
I dedided to take a few pics so you could see what im talking about. Sorry they arnt very good. Im no photographer and I took them with my phone.
The first one is a round with a dent in the casing. Seems like all the dents are in about the same place on all the rounds. Just below the shoulder.
The second one is just a few of the casings. You can see the sealant splattered on the casings.
The third is another of the sealant on the casing. I just threw a new shiney round next to it for comparison.
I tried to take a pic of the round with the crack in the neck but it is pretty small and my phone camera couldnt get a decent shot of it. So is this pretty typical of how these rounds come?
The one dent is a little deep for boxed ammo, but beyond that they look pretty normal.
What year is the brass? Are they mixed years?
Thomas M-4
03-12-10, 12:31
I dedided to take a few pics so you could see what im talking about. Sorry they arnt very good. Im no photographer and I took them with my phone.
The first one is a round with a dent in the casing. Seems like all the dents are in about the same place on all the rounds. Just below the shoulder.
The second one is just a few of the casings. You can see the sealant splattered on the casings.
The third is another of the sealant on the casing. I just threw a new shiney round next to it for comparison.
I tried to take a pic of the round with the crack in the neck but it is pretty small and my phone camera couldnt get a decent shot of it. So is this pretty typical of how these rounds come?
All normal no problems just go out and shoot it.
I just bought a 200 round bulk pack yesterday XM193. I visually check each case neck for cracks or to see if the case rim has been folded over during the bullet seating process I have never found that on X-M193 but I have seen it on win q3131 and PMC bronze. The black tar water proofing is fine I have a few in that box that has more than the pic you posted. Commercial ammunition is made nice and pertty ;) and has been polished. The military brass is unpolished because they want to see the case neck annealing to visually verify that the neck was annealed properly.
hmm.. i've never paid a whole lot of attention to them, but i've shot a HELL of a lot of xm193, and i haven't noticed anything like what you're describing- a cracked neck is most certainly no go. dents should only be found in, at least in quantity, in remanned ammo- which xm193 is not. xm193 should be pretty new looking.. it's annealed, so the neck should appear tarnished- but other than that, it's generally bright shiny, new looking brass. the black gummy stuff is most likely neck sealant, and is a good thing- but it shouldnt be slopped all over the outside.
sounds like you got a shitty batch, to me. not sure what advice to give.. having found a crack, i think i'd be inclined to attempt a return, since there may be more. otherwise, inspect each round and make sure you've got your safety spex on when you shoot it.
I agree with the above. All of the XM193 I have shot has been boxed in cases, never loose packed. However, I am an avid reloader and naturally I pay attention to the quality/shape of the brass before & after shooting it. Ive got to say that for being individually boxed in 20 rounds to a box some of those rounds looked like crap. It almost appears as if they had an exposure to a moist/wet environment. Definitely throw out the cracked case necks, don't take a chance. I would consider contacting the source that you purchased your ammo from and ask questions.
sureshot47
03-12-10, 13:42
All the brass that I have looked at is the same stamp LC 09. Im not planning on returning the ammo but I will definately give the seller a call. I also called Federal and left a message a couple days ago but no one called me back. Guess it is time to give them another ring :)
Thomas M-4
03-12-10, 13:51
All the brass that I have looked at is the same stamp LC 09. Im not planning on returning the ammo but I will definately give the seller a call. I also called Federal and left a message a couple days ago but no one called me back. Guess it is time to give them another ring :)
This is silly:rolleyes: just give me a ring I will dispose of it for you
HelloLarry
03-12-10, 14:07
I hope you got that crap cheap!
How much was it?
sureshot47
03-12-10, 14:18
haha thanks Thomas but I think I can handle it :D. I think I got it pretty cheap. I paid $300.
It almost appears as if they had an exposure to a moist/wet environment. Definitely throw out the cracked case necks, don't take a chance.
+1 on both counts (+2?).
Are you sure it's sealant or dirt on the outside of the cases? It looks almost like tarnish of some kind.
I wouldn't worry about the dents, but I wouldn't shoot any ammo with a cracked neck. I'd trash those straightaway.
Bimmer
The more you learn about ammo, and the closer you look at XM193, the less you'll like it. :mad:
Roll some of those rounds on a flat surface and check out the bullet runout. :rolleyes:
I won't shoot that crap through my silencer without CAREFULLY checking each round first.
sureshot47
03-12-10, 18:04
Are you sure it's sealant or dirt on the outside of the cases? It looks almost like tarnish of some kind.
Bimmer
Some of it is black and gummy so I would assume, from what others described, that it is sealant. Some of the other disoloration could definately be tarnish. I dont know what would cause that
The more you learn about ammo, and the closer you look at XM193, the less you'll like it. :mad:
What would be a good affordable alternative? I mentioned it before but sometime in the future I would like to start reloading. Is dented brass reloadable? Or is it not worth dealing with?
i've had some random stragglers of messed up rounds, but never a whole batch that looked like raked-up range duds. you probably got a particularly jacked up batch of mil rejects.. i was under the impression that they put all their mil rejects in the BK cases (which easily explains why i never experience these poor examples other guys have reported), but i suppose they're under no law or regulation to maintain any policies.
What would be a good affordable alternative? I mentioned it before but sometime in the future I would like to start reloading. Is dented brass reloadable? Or is it not worth dealing with?
PMC is decent if you run a carbine. If you can get Federal Walmart Bulk pack, that brass is great. UMC is mediocre ammo, but the brass is awesome.
XM193 is my LEAST favorite brass. You Have to trim it after the first firing, and there's a crimpt to deal with. Of the three I mentioned above, I can generally get a few loads without trimming. And UMC has No crimp. Centurion "M193" is also a good brass. It's not real M193 despite the name and headstamp.
Some of the other disoloration could definately be tarnish. I dont know what would cause that...
Usually exposure to moisture... it wasn't stored or handled well.
FWIW, I got a 1,000 round bulk pack of XM193 last year. I immediately loaded it into 100-round plastic boxes, so I wound up handling every single round. None of them looked like problems to me.
Bimmer
moneymaker
03-12-10, 19:08
193 and 855 is reject military ammo that is not fit for use for the military and law enforcement and that is what you get,you need to be wise and look it all over good,as it is reject ammo,if i am wrong then how can a citizen buy military ammo?:eek:
XM193 is my LEAST favorite brass. You Have to trim it after the first firing, and there's a crimpt to deal with.
Tell me if I'm wrong here, but I was under the impression that annealed brass was better than not-annealed.
And I don't know if this is true of .223/5.56, but for .308/7.62 brass everybody likes the mil-spec brass better because it tends to be thicker/heavier.
Bimmer
... if i am wrong then how can a citizen buy military ammo?
You're right about it being "reject" or overrun ammo.
Civilians can buy all sorts of stuff that the military buys, and vice versa. My impression is that the vast majority of the stuff the military buys is available to the general public.
Federal is in business to make money, and there aren't many restrictions on buying or selling small arms ammunition...
Bimmer
193 and 855 is reject military ammo that is not fit for use for the military and law enforcement and that is what you get,you need to be wise and look it all over good,as it is reject ammo,if i am wrong then how can a citizen buy military ammo?:eek:
not sure exactly what you said here, buy as to the last question- it's not "military" ammo, it's ammo that wasn't ever sold to the military.
moneymaker
03-12-10, 19:53
correct never sold to the military and why???????????Because it is damaged or has defects correct???
correct never sold to the military and why???????????Because it is damaged or has defects correct???
XM193 is imperfect M193, but very few seem to know exactly where that line is drawn.
Thomas M-4
03-12-10, 21:32
Tell me if I'm wrong here, but I was under the impression that annealed brass was better than not-annealed.
And I don't know if this is true of .223/5.56, but for .308/7.62 brass everybody likes the mil-spec brass better because it tends to be thicker/heavier.
Bimmer
Brass Manufacturer Aver. Wt.
(Sample) Extreme
Spread Standard
Deviation
Lapua (new lot) 93.35 (100) 1.2 gr 0.31 gr
Hornady 93.88 (50) 1.7 gr 0.43 gr
Federal 96.28 (50) 2.3gr 0.75 gr
Lake City '04 92.97 (50) 2.5 gr 0.61 gr
WCC 99 95.5 (20) 2.9 gr 0.74 gr
IMG (Guatemalan) 95.42 (25) 3.1 gr 0.88 gr
PMP 104.4 (50) 3.9 gr 0.93 gr
Radway 96.05 (50) 4.1 gr 0.89 gr
PMC 93.48 (20) 4.6 gr 1.36 gr
Remington 92.33 (50) 4.9 gr 0.85 gr
Winchester 93.91 (44) 6.5 gr 0.96 gr
Yes LC tends to be heavier than other manufactures
All cases have been annealed but most manufactures re polish after annealing to cover it up so it looks pertty.
I have inspected 480 rounds of xm-193 today because of this thread. I have just 80 rounds of LOT number 200 left out of 1200 with 07 head stamp xm-193 it does seem to be slightly less discolored than the black box xm-193 with 09 head stamp and less tar sealant. But the discoloration will have no effect on the performance nor will the water proofing which is spotting everywhere. The dents on the casings which are present on the 07 and 09 lots will dissaper with 55,000 psi chamber pressure trust me on that ;) It will pop the dents clean out.
I still stand by my previous posts the ammo is fine it DOES how ever needs to be inspected if it has cracked neck toss or a rolled over neck from the bullet seating operation toss it. You should look at xm856 every time I buy that stuff the cases have a green tint to it and the necks are completely gray and have discolored spots on the body but I have never had a problem with it.
sureshot47
03-13-10, 10:20
XM193 is imperfect M193, but very few seem to know exactly where that line is drawn.
I have seen a lot of talk on the different criteria the ammo is rejected for. But are the rounds rejected individually? Or do they check 1 out of ??? and if it is not up to standards they reject the whole batch?
Also is AE ammo the same as the federal xm193 brown boxed stuff? Just a better looking package?
sureshot47
03-29-10, 21:17
So I just finished inspecting all the xm193 rounds I purchased and I figured I would post the results in case anyone cared. Out of 1000 rds I only threw out 8 of them which I found surprising (thought I would find way more!). 1 cracked neck (the original culprit), 2 with bullets that were seated crooked, and 5 with deep dents in the shoulder/neck area. I also kept track of all the damaged rounds that were not bad enough to get rid of. There were 59 rounds with pretty good size dents in them. I didnt count the small dings or dents. But the placement of these dents were further down in the body of the case and didnt seem like they would cause an issue.
One thing I did notice while going through all these rounds was that the bullet seating depth seemed to vary greatly between each. I know from looking into realoading OAL is an important factor in chamber pressure. So my question is what amount of variance is acceptable. I dont have a micrometer to give you any numbers but you can easily see by looking at them. I took a couple pictures so you could see and let me know what you think. Again I appologize for the quality. gotta love the camera on your phone :D
They are rejects that won't pass mil inspection I use them.
They are rejects that won't pass mil inspection I use them.
If you take the time to read a thread before posting you can avoid redundancy. This was well covered.
The dents wont hurt, they will obviously expand out when fired.
No way will I just "Throw Out Live Ammo" split necks or what ever. I will take a cheap bullet puller and pull the lead and remove the powder before "Throwing out". No live rounds in my garbage, but to each his own.
sureshot47
04-02-10, 11:41
No way will I just "Throw Out Live Ammo" split necks or what ever. I will take a cheap bullet puller and pull the lead and remove the powder before "Throwing out". No live rounds in my garbage, but to each his own.
haha when I said "threw out" I didnt mean in the trash. I just took them out of the bunch. They are actually sitting on a shelf because I wasnt quite sure what to do with them. Is there any danger involved in pulling bullets? or is it a pretty simple operation?
And im still wondering about the OAL differences on those rounds. Are those differences in length normal? I guess im just confused because from what I have read on the forum people that are pro factory ammo genrally say they like factory ammo because it is consistent. Dont worry Im still going to shoot the stuff! Im just trying to figure out if the relatively low cost of this stuff is worth the trouble.
Sorry about my misunderstanding about "Throwing out". I'm to "Black And White".
It is cheap, safe, and easy to do. RCBS hammer puller (https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3677&route=C15J041) You put the loaded round in one end and screw it down tight, then "Hammer" the OTHER end on a hard surface such as the floor, so it is like the loaded round is shooting at the floor, but the case is held tight so the inertia will force the bullet to come out and the powder as well. The "Crimped" shells may take a little more force to remove the bullet, but it can be done. Thats one way.
Another way is if you have a "Reloading Press", here is another way. RCBS Press Puller (https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3700&route=C15J041) This one you have to have a Collette for each caliber bullet you want to pull. It go's in the press like a "Die" and you use the press handle to PULL the bullet out and is the way to go if you have a lot to pull.
I have booth, and one or two, the "Hammer" is faster to set up for one or two, but the press one is faster if you have a lot to do. You just have to have Collette's for this one, one for each different diameter bullet you need to pull.
As to what to do about buying more, thats up to you. I would only use it to "Practice" or "Plink" with, but not for my life/family to depend on.
No live rounds in my garbage, but to each his own.
FWIW, I don't see any safety hazard or other problem in throwing out live ammuntion, and I've done it on occasion...
Given what it takes to set off ammunition and the "dud" effect when rounds cook off, there's isn't any more "danger" to anybody than throwing out old aerosol cans or empty bottles of lighter fluid or whatever.
Of course, if you want to use the components, that's another matter.
Bimmer
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