View Full Version : Help me spend $2,000....wisely
First I’d like to thank everyone on m4carbine.net, especially Rob and Grant, as a noob I’ve learned so much from everyone reading the forums until all hours of the night. The “chart” already saved me from wasting money on a DPMS, that I now know I would have regretted.
Here is my situation; I am in the market for my first AR. I have about $2,000 to spend. I want to get a quality rifle, and everything that I will need to get started in the AR world (an AR start-up kit of sorts).
This rifle will be used mainly for shooting at the range, but I would like to take some courses and maybe even enter some competitions in the future, obviously, it should also be capable for use in HD.
This being my first AR, I have ruled out building my own from scratch, but I would be willing to “assemble” one from a complete upper and lower, if it could save some $.
I’d rather have a better rifle now and add “accessories” later, than have a piece of crap with all the bells and whistles. Accuracy and reliability are very important to me. I’d also rather wait to get the right rifle than pick up one off the shelf that I’m not happy with.
With the $2,000 budget I NEED to get the following:
Rifle (I’m looking at the: Colt 6920, Daniel Defense M4, DDM4v3 midlength, BCM middy, or any others you can recommend of similar quality)
Ammo (at least 1 case)
Sling (I need help with this one)
Magazines (at least 5, but preferably 10, Magpul P Mags)
Any other necessary “tools” or accessories that are deemed necessary
Am I forgetting anything on this list?:confused:
I’d LIKE, but am willing to wait to purchase when I save up some more extra cash:
Aimpoint sight (model yet to be decided)
Vertical grip
Flashlight/mount
I live in OH, so I’ll probably be taking a trip to see Grant for this purchase, but I'm not opposed to buying directly from other reputable sources. My local gun shops are sorely lacking in selection and knowledge. I want to get all my ducks in a row before I "pull the trigger" on this purchase. I’d appreciate any advice I can get from people who have been in my situation, and know a lot more than me. Thanks in advance.
These are guesses in price but they should be in the neighborhood. I don't know if these are G&R prices but they are competitive internet prices.
1300 - DD M4 or M4v2 (comes with rail, VFG and BUIS)
450 - Aimpoint C3 in ADM or LaRue mount
35 - BFG Victory sling
90 - 10 Mags (D&H USGI)
325 - 1000 PMC Bronze .223
$2200 minus tax, transfer fees or whatever.
All that's left is a light, which could go from $50 to $250 depending on what you want.
ETA: essential tools. A LULA magloader may be the best investment one can make. I bought one with my first AR and I still think it's the savviest thing I've ever bought. A 5.56 Boresnake kicks ass. You'll need a cleaning kit and some CLP. And you'll need hearing and eye protection. I'd recommend some electronic hearing protection.
Stevieterry
03-12-10, 19:47
Go get a money order for 2000 and send it to me.
Then your done!
lethal dose
03-12-10, 19:59
I built a great ride for just around that. Dd lower, lmt upper, lmt bc/g, magpul mbus, 11" troy trx extreme, aimpoint h-1, ctr, miad, pmags, etc. Where in Ohio are you? I'm hosting the spring m4c meet may 1 and 2. You should come. Free.
My vote would be for a 6920 and an Aimpoint (either a C3 or H1 depending on your preference), and a bunch of ammo. Then shoot the gun a lot and you'll have a better idea of what else you need/want, if anything.
Training isn't on your list.
I highly recommend a BCM midlength. Fantastic carbine. :)
Complication
03-12-10, 20:45
Since I recently kitted out a gun, here's what I'd grab:
$1,495 (1,465 + 30 shipping + transfer fee) Noveske N4 Light Basic*
$55 Magpul MS2 sling**
$85 5x Magpul PMag with window ($70 without window)
$400 Case of your favorite flavor of Ammo***
$20 Cleaning kit (traditional or boresnake, patches, etc. etc.)
$10 Spray bottle of CLP****
$?? Carry bag
$30 Tools (See below)
-------
$2,095
If you put off buying the case of ammo, or want help on a future wish list, here's the other "essentials" I'd add:
$30 Magpul MOE Handguard
$10 Magpul MOE Hanguard rail attachment*****
$35 Magpul AFG (unless you want a broomstick)
$100 Magpul CTR (the Noveske comes with a nice VLTOR stock, but it's not my cup of tea and I'm aiming for a color scheme other than straight black)
$20 Troy CQB grip (The TangoDown grip the Noveske comes with is nice but I like to grip high. I've been told these start shipping end of month. Just make sure whatever grip you use covers "the gap")
$500-1200 Optics w/ LaRue mounts (Save yourself the headache of searching and just buy the mounts and maybe even the optics from LaRue. Seriously quality. And they give you some fantastic dry rub, too! Go ACOG, red dot, red dot with mag, or EOTech, but seriously spend time researching NOT what you want but what you NEED)
$25 BCM charging handle (Mod 3 or 4, I think the medium one is the perfect size)
$20 Magpul MOE trigger guard
Then if you want to take classes, you're going to have to research what gear you want: kneepads?, chest rig or belt rig?, camelbak or plain water bottles?, pistol holster on chest rig? belt? drop-leg?, pistol mags, bug spray, eye and ear pro you can wear all day all weekend, speed loaders, spare bolt, spare batteries, sun screen, folding chair, dump pouch, loctite, etc. etc. If you want to take a class, I'd say read the forums on what you need and maybe buy a carbine course training video and pay attention to what people have, what works, and what you think will fit with you. Remember that after fees, ammo, gas, food, hotels, etc. carbine courses can cost upwards of $2,000. Buying a $40 dvd set to get the most out of your investment doesn't sound so rough, now, huh?
After that, you can really go crazy on stuff you don't need. I'm EXO-coating my BCG, I've got a Geissele 2-stage trigger on the way, I'm putting in an ambi safety, I've got a BAD lever, a weapons light, a BHI enhanced SOPMOD bolt upgrade kit, a troy di-optic flip up rear sight, and I've even replaced the rubber cover to my Aimpoint COMPML3 to match my color scheme. But none of that's "starter-kit" stuff. All of that is "because... **** it, why not?" stuff that you can get when you've got a little money to spend.
TOOLS:
Once you start adding stuff like a BAD lever, rail sections, and lights/optics and their mounts, you're going to need a dizzying variety of hex and torx heads. I went to home depot and got this Husky driver set with 10 metric hex bits, 10 imperial hex bits, and 10 torx/star bits (with a single flathead and a single phillips head bit) plus the ratcheting screwdriver. Most useful $30 I've spent on my AR15. Just make sure you find a set (preferably small enough that you can keep it in your range bag and never worry about where it is) that has a whole range of torx/star and hex (metric and imperial) bits so you never have to worry about buying an addition or modification and then stripping screws or being left with the coolest whizbang on the market with no way to get it on your gun.
*The rifle's the critical part. Make sure you're picking the one you'll want for the future, not now. For example, there are "nicer" Noveskes (i.e. more expensive) but my optics mount on the rail it's got, so no need for a monolithic rail running all the way to the front sight. I also planned (and already have) on using Magpul's handguard, so no need to get a quad-rail system. Also, since all I was mounting up front is a light and an the magpul AFG, no need for anything sturdier than polymer, plus it saves some weight, I'm sure. The only downside to the N4 Basic is the fixed front sight. But since I'm running a Aimpoint red dot, I can co-witness, and when I flip up the 3x Magnifier, the front sight disappears completely. I'm sure there are people who hate the front sight in their field of view, but I'm completely indifferent. Personal preference.
**There's maybe 2 other slings I'd even consider spending money on. The MS2 is 100% what I'm looking for. Watch this video to see the sexy Chris Costa run down the sling and ASAP mount (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5nOt2pSySY). You can shell out $30 for the ASAP mount but the quick-detach stuff you'll get with the Noveske gives almost just as much range of motion and you'll probably only notice the difference if you're a Magpul whore :).
***Last I checked, Midway USA will have 3-4 different lengths in stock by the end of this month or sometime in April. USCav is shipping them now but only in one length (10 slots). They're polymer, too, so the weight difference between the 3-slot and the 12-slot is probably negligible.
****Personally, I've found that a spray bottle makes cleaning 100x easier. There are so many small nooks and crannies that are a real bear to clean by shoving patches around on the ends of sticks.
*****With the 1:7 twist, you probably want something heavier than 55gr, but I doubt you'll notice it at shorter ranges. I'd put off buying the case of ammo and take 40-50 rounds of 55gr, 62gr, and maybe even 70gr and see how they shoot wherever you're plinking. I'm still waiting for a few parts before I take mine out to the range and do some testing myself, so I can't help much there.
There, hope that helps get you started.
I built a great ride for just around that. Dd lower, lmt upper, lmt bc/g, magpul mbus, 11" troy trx extreme, aimpoint h-1, ctr, miad, pmags, etc. Where in Ohio are you? I'm hosting the spring m4c meet may 1 and 2. You should come. Free.
I'm from the Youngstown area, I'd love to come to the meet but unfortunately, I'll be out of town that weekend.:( I'll be in touch if my schedule changes.
My vote would be for a 6920 and an Aimpoint (either a C3 or H1 depending on your preference), and a bunch of ammo. Then shoot the gun a lot and you'll have a better idea of what else you need/want, if anything.
I have a question about the 6920. Are they all marked for law enforcement only? Every one I've seen around here has been marked LEO. If so, can an ordinary guy buy one, and are there any other implications?
Complication
03-12-10, 22:08
I have a question about the 6920. Are they all marked for law enforcement only? Every one I've seen around here has been marked LEO. If so, can an ordinary guy buy one, and are there any other implications?
Perfectly legal to own one in Ohio, no implications at all (crazy states like CA might be another matter, but that has nothing to do with being marked "LEO only"). As long as you can buy a long gun, you can buy a 6920. My local shop's got one in stock right now. Almost bought it instead of the Noveske.
3rd paragraph:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/ATF--Changes_in%20Federal_Law_as%20of%20September_13_2004.htm
From the ATF itself:
Q: Are SAWs and LCAFDs marked “Restricted law enforcement/government use only” or “For export only” now legal to sell to civilians in the United States?
Yes. SAWs and LCAFDs are no longer prohibited. Therefore, firearms with the restrictive markings are legal to transfer to civilians in the United States, and it is legal for non-prohibited civilians to possess them. All civilians may possess LCAFDs.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/saws-and-lcafds.html#sales-of-restricted
Training isn't on your list.
It's on next Summer's list.
Perfectly legal to own one in Ohio, no implications at all (crazy states like CA might be another matter, but that has nothing to do with being marked "LEO only"). As long as you can buy a long gun, you can buy a 6920. My local shop's got one in stock right now. Almost bought it instead of the Noveske.
3rd paragraph:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/ATF--Changes_in%20Federal_Law_as%20of%20September_13_2004.htm
From the ATF itself:
Q: Are SAWs and LCAFDs marked “Restricted law enforcement/government use only” or “For export only” now legal to sell to civilians in the United States?
Yes. SAWs and LCAFDs are no longer prohibited. Therefore, firearms with the restrictive markings are legal to transfer to civilians in the United States, and it is legal for non-prohibited civilians to possess them. All civilians may possess LCAFDs.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/saws-and-lcafds.html#sales-of-restricted
great, thanks
Since I recently kitted out a gun, here's what I'd grab:
$1,495 (1,465 + 30 shipping + transfer fee) Noveske N4 Light Basic*
$55 Magpul MS2 sling**
$85 5x Magpul PMag with window ($70 without window)
$400 Case of your favorite flavor of Ammo***
$20 Cleaning kit (traditional or boresnake, patches, etc. etc.)
$10 Spray bottle of CLP****
$?? Carry bag
$30 Tools (See below)
-------
$2,095
If you put off buying the case of ammo, or want help on a future wish list, here's the other "essentials" I'd add:
$30 Magpul MOE Handguard
$10 Magpul MOE Hanguard rail attachment*****
$35 Magpul AFG (unless you want a broomstick)
$100 Magpul CTR (the Noveske comes with a nice VLTOR stock, but it's not my cup of tea and I'm aiming for a color scheme other than straight black)
$20 Troy CQB grip (The TangoDown grip the Noveske comes with is nice but I like to grip high. I've been told these start shipping end of month. Just make sure whatever grip you use covers "the gap")
$500-1200 Optics w/ LaRue mounts (Save yourself the headache of searching and just buy the mounts and maybe even the optics from LaRue. Seriously quality. And they give you some fantastic dry rub, too! Go ACOG, red dot, red dot with mag, or EOTech, but seriously spend time researching NOT what you want but what you NEED)
$25 BCM charging handle (Mod 3 or 4, I think the medium one is the perfect size)
$20 Magpul MOE trigger guard
Then if you want to take classes, you're going to have to research what gear you want: kneepads?, chest rig or belt rig?, camelbak or plain water bottles?, pistol holster on chest rig? belt? drop-leg?, pistol mags, bug spray, eye and ear pro you can wear all day all weekend, speed loaders, spare bolt, spare batteries, sun screen, folding chair, dump pouch, loctite, etc. etc. If you want to take a class, I'd say read the forums on what you need and maybe buy a carbine course training video and pay attention to what people have, what works, and what you think will fit with you. Remember that after fees, ammo, gas, food, hotels, etc. carbine courses can cost upwards of $2,000. Buying a $40 dvd set to get the most out of your investment doesn't sound so rough, now, huh?
After that, you can really go crazy on stuff you don't need. I'm EXO-coating my BCG, I've got a Geissele 2-stage trigger on the way, I'm putting in an ambi safety, I've got a BAD lever, a weapons light, a BHI enhanced SOPMOD bolt upgrade kit, a troy di-optic flip up rear sight, and I've even replaced the rubber cover to my Aimpoint COMPML3 to match my color scheme. But none of that's "starter-kit" stuff. All of that is "because... **** it, why not?" stuff that you can get when you've got a little money to spend.
TOOLS:
Once you start adding stuff like a BAD lever, rail sections, and lights/optics and their mounts, you're going to need a dizzying variety of hex and torx heads. I went to home depot and got this Husky driver set with 10 metric hex bits, 10 imperial hex bits, and 10 torx/star bits (with a single flathead and a single phillips head bit) plus the ratcheting screwdriver. Most useful $30 I've spent on my AR15. Just make sure you find a set (preferably small enough that you can keep it in your range bag and never worry about where it is) that has a whole range of torx/star and hex (metric and imperial) bits so you never have to worry about buying an addition or modification and then stripping screws or being left with the coolest whizbang on the market with no way to get it on your gun.
*The rifle's the critical part. Make sure you're picking the one you'll want for the future, not now. For example, there are "nicer" Noveskes (i.e. more expensive) but my optics mount on the rail it's got, so no need for a monolithic rail running all the way to the front sight. I also planned (and already have) on using Magpul's handguard, so no need to get a quad-rail system. Also, since all I was mounting up front is a light and an the magpul AFG, no need for anything sturdier than polymer, plus it saves some weight, I'm sure. The only downside to the N4 Basic is the fixed front sight. But since I'm running a Aimpoint red dot, I can co-witness, and when I flip up the 3x Magnifier, the front sight disappears completely. I'm sure there are people who hate the front sight in their field of view, but I'm completely indifferent. Personal preference.
**There's maybe 2 other slings I'd even consider spending money on. The MS2 is 100% what I'm looking for. Watch this video to see the sexy Chris Costa run down the sling and ASAP mount (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5nOt2pSySY). You can shell out $30 for the ASAP mount but the quick-detach stuff you'll get with the Noveske gives almost just as much range of motion and you'll probably only notice the difference if you're a Magpul whore :).
***Last I checked, Midway USA will have 3-4 different lengths in stock by the end of this month or sometime in April. USCav is shipping them now but only in one length (10 slots). They're polymer, too, so the weight difference between the 3-slot and the 12-slot is probably negligible.
****Personally, I've found that a spray bottle makes cleaning 100x easier. There are so many small nooks and crannies that are a real bear to clean by shoving patches around on the ends of sticks.
*****With the 1:7 twist, you probably want something heavier than 55gr, but I doubt you'll notice it at shorter ranges. I'd put off buying the case of ammo and take 40-50 rounds of 55gr, 62gr, and maybe even 70gr and see how they shoot wherever you're plinking. I'm still waiting for a few parts before I take mine out to the range and do some testing myself, so I can't help much there.
There, hope that helps get you started.
Wow, that's a ton of great advice, I'll have to spend some time digesting it all. Thanks.:D
I have about $2k invested in my BCM midlength, and it shoots like a dream. I have:
BCM Midlength from Grant at G&R.
Larue 12.0 hanguards
Larue low-pro Gasblock
Magpul rail panels
VLTOR emod stock
MIAD
MS2 sling
GG&G sling plate
Magpul MBUS front sight
Aimpoint H-1 on a Larue tall mount
Surefire 6p in a larue Mount (which I will probably be selling, as that block of metal is ****ing heavy)
and I think I got 4 PMAGS plus the one included steal mag with Magpul followers.
All told, it cost me about $2200 or so.
You can save $600 just by shooting irons for awhile and saving for the optic, or scrub $300 by waiting on getting full length railed handguards (rumor has it Magpul is releasing a midlength MOE handguard... probably sub-$150) Either way, you'll be at your price point. As far as ammo goes... With me, personally, I save $50 from every paycheck and buy about 200 rnds at the local gun shop. I can get it for about $5/20 rnds. Also, every time I order online, anything gun related, I throw in a PMAG or two. At $14 a pop, I don't really think about it, and I ain't made of money. Coming up on about 12 mags when my order from Brownells comes in next week.
If you're working (I hope you are) you can get a lot of ammunition relatively quick and cheap by using my method. I've only fallen below 1k rnds once since I bought my rifle, and I shoot about 400 rnds every range trip. Going to Walmart? Buy a box or two. Ordering online? They have ammo? Buy a box or two and throw in a PMAG for good measure. Get my drift?
lethal dose
03-12-10, 23:16
I'm from the Youngstown area, I'd love to come to the meet but unfortunately, I'll be out of town that weekend.:( I'll be in touch if my schedule changes.
I live in Salem if you ever wanna meet up for some trigger time.
$2K recently got me a 6920 with an Aimpoint Ml2, LaRue QD mount, Pmags, MI BUIS, tac light and assorted trinkets. I have no buyer's remorse whatsoever.
ColdDeadHands
03-13-10, 07:23
LMT complete Lower $330
BCM Mid-length Upper with CH & BCG $580
BCM Mid-length hand guard $20
DD A1.5 Fixed rear sight $69
Vickers AA Combat Applications Sling $43
(10) Pmags $142
Aimpoint H1 with KZ Mount $427 after rebate and shipping
That makes a total of $1611, sell the KZ Mount for $45 and replace it with a DD Mount.
The LMT Lower is at Rainier Arms, The Aimpoint Package at Botach and the rest from Bravo Company. After you pay shipping for the upper & lower you should still have enough cash for a case of ammo.
Not my proudest moment in terms of the way it's posted, but I have a page on my site on my BCM carbine (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/59827.html).
Now, if buying today....
Daniel Defense lower, complete, with MOE grip & stock $379 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-22000&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower%20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html)
BCM upper with plastic handguards, BCM BCG & Charging handle $626 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-22000&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower%20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html)
That gets you into a complete, functional firearm for $1k, add another $60 for either a DD fixed rear sight (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=A1-BUIS) or a Magpul rear MBUS (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MBUS) if you prefer folding.
Agree with the above posters re: the Aimpoint C3 in mount @ $465 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APC3AD68&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dc3%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html).
You're now at $1100 for the rifle with rear BUIS plus $465 with the optic for a total of $1600 give or take for the complete package.
Magpul Pmag 10-pack should run you <$150/shipped bringing you to $1750, and a decent sling like the BFG Victory gets you to around $1800 total.
Herein lies your problem. Getting ammo, 1,000 rounds of it, for $200. Even if shooting Wolf that's not going to happen.
One possible solution is to buy something along the lines of a Spike's Tactical complete lower for $275 (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=104_114&products_id=86). That is nearly $100 less than the DD above, and frankly I am of the opinion that the lower these days is one of the least critical elements. The standard M4 stock is MORE than serviceable, the Spike's comes with a milspec extension so you can change it out later if you want, and the only think it needs is a MOE grip and a gapper (the A2 grip has to go, every time) and Spike's probably has those available for a slight upcharge if you call them.
Going that route would get you another $100 or so for ammo, meaning a total of $300, and it looks like AIM has a version of PMC for $310 plus shipping (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AHS223FMJ55). (caution, I have not used this ammo myself although I am planning on ordering a case to try out this week).
So my suggestion would be:
$300 Spike's lower ($275 plus shipping and transfer, may be a little over $300)
$626 Complete BCM upper
$465 Aimpoint C3 in ADM mount
$150 for 10 Pmags
$50 for BFG Victory sling
$60 BUIS
$350 ammo shipped
$2001 total package
All of the items in blue are available from G&R which may net you a slight reduction in price for the total package but should at least mean that you can get the whole package assembled for free when it arrives to you, saving you some hassle. Handguards installed, optic mounted, BUIS mounted, BCG and CH installed.
Awesome job Rob! And to point out, for those who like their stuff to match, the BCM compete lowers are $350...and if you get the regular BCM barrel, instead of the BFH, its about $100 less.
Why is everyone adding the cost of an Aimpoint/Optic to the initial package? He stated it's optional, and since he hasn't even built (let alone shot) his gun yet, so he doesn't even know how it shoots or how he'll want to shoot it.
My suggestion is buy everything BUT the optic. As many others have pointed out, you can get all of the parts you mentioned for around $2200 - that means without the optic, you're looking at $1800 - $1900. Buy everything but the optic and use that case of ammo (some or all of it) learning to shoot your gun with iron sights.
Trying to buy everything on a tight budget will leave you with regrets (i.e. "Well, I would have liked to get the Aimpoint ML3 + Larue cantilever combo, but now I'm stuck with a C3 + ADM mount because I purchased the only model that would fit my budget"). In addition, you'll end up with a frankengun (if that doesn't bother you, then ignore this) that's either got different uppers/lowers, or bare-bones stripped down, when you could have gotten a good old BCM or Noveske straight up for $150-200 more. Further, the Aimpoint Micro models are out of his price range by... maybe $300? Those are a massively great upgrade as far as weight and size go, yet he can't even consider them due to the constrained budget.
You can easily afford everything but your optic on that budget. Buy the exact rifle you want (no need to skimp since you're not buying the optic), sling, ammo, etc, and then come back later when you've got the money to buy whatever optic you want.
You'll thank me later.
Why is everyone adding the cost of an Aimpoint/Optic to the initial package? He stated it's optional
Because it shouldn't be.
Because it shouldn't be.
Then you're gravely mistaken. A rifle with an Aimpoint is nothing but a rifle with a $500 piece of metal and glass on top. Knowing how to use the weapon will make the rifle more deadly and reliable than any optic on top. Adding expensive gear to a gun doesn't make something good.
Sure, an Aimpoint can make the user more effective at getting hits on target, but only if they've learned to use the rifle correctly in the first place.
My advice stands: buy the rifle, learn to use it, then decide on the optic you need.
You can learn to use a rifle correctly with an Aimpoint.
And the irons aren't going anywhere. He can learn on those as well.
I'm liking rob's package. BCM middy's (or any quality middy for that matter) are a dream to shoot.
Complication
03-13-10, 12:16
Then you're gravely mistaken. A rifle with an Aimpoint is nothing but a rifle with a $500 piece of metal and glass on top. Knowing how to use the weapon will make the rifle more deadly and reliable than any optic on top. Adding expensive gear to a gun doesn't make something good.
Sure, an Aimpoint can make the user more effective at getting hits on target, but only if they've learned to use the rifle correctly in the first place.
My advice stands: buy the rifle, learn to use it, then decide on the optic you need.
He did ask us to "spend" $2,000 for him. Of those that suggest optics, they're solidly within that price range. There's a little over/under, but it's stupid to suggest buying a $1,600 rifle and then going out of your way to say, "Don't spend that extra money one something that makes you a more effective shooter!"
Sounds like a lot of people think an optic is an essential piece of hardware to have. I haven't heard one person suggest avoiding learning to use iron sights.
This isn't a debate about whether it's better to deny yourself an optic till you can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with irons. It's a thread about what folks are suggesting this gentlemen should spend 2 grand on.
Relax, it's Saturday.
Then you're gravely mistaken. A rifle with an Aimpoint is nothing but a rifle with a $500 piece of metal and glass on top. Knowing how to use the weapon will make the rifle more deadly and reliable than any optic on top. Adding expensive gear to a gun doesn't make something good.
Sure, an Aimpoint can make the user more effective at getting hits on target, but only if they've learned to use the rifle correctly in the first place.
My advice stands: buy the rifle, learn to use it, then decide on the optic you need.
You contradict yourself, sir.
Army studies have shown new recruits shoot better with an RDS than they do with irons. They shorten the learning curve of putting bullets into bad guys. That's why they bought a million M68s, not because they look cool.
My suggestion is buy everything BUT the optic.
why? It has been shown that he can get a very good quality firearm AND a very good quality optic, and meet the rest of his needs and stay within budget. Please tell me this isn't due to some antiquated and romanticised notion that "you should learn irons first".
Trying to buy everything on a tight budget will leave you with regrets (i.e. "Well, I would have liked to get the Aimpoint ML3 + Larue cantilever combo, but now I'm stuck with a C3 + ADM mount because I purchased the only model that would fit my budget").
Anyone that thinks that way is a fool. In fact, most people should think of it quite the opposite ("well, I went and bought the ML3 in Larue cantilever mount but I would have been just as well served with the C3 + ADM straight mount because I don't use any of the features that account for the added cost of the LT/ML3")
In addition, you'll end up with a frankengun
as I believe they say on the interwebs "oh, the noes!" :rolleyes:
You can easily afford everything but your optic on that budget.
actually he can afford everything AND the optic on that budget, as has been shown already.
The ONLY way I would agree with you re: skipping the optic is if it means he'll actually go take a class with the iron sights. If he's just going to spend a year farting around with the gun with irons only because you told him he didn't need an optic then I say buy the optic now. If, however, skipping the $465 on the C3/ADM combo now means he has the cash to go take a quality introductory class like Randy Cain's Carbine 1 where the focus is entirely on the fundamentals and where he'll actually be training with someone that understand and appreciates the iron sights, and who can teach him to get good hits out to 200 yards with those iron sights, then I would agree with you that it is worth skipping the Aimpoint and putting 600-800 rounds out of that case to good use with Mr. Cain.
If, however, he's just going to go take a blasting class anyway, a year from now regardless, with or without the optic, then he might as well get the optic now.
My advice stands: buy the rifle, learn to use it, then decide on the optic you need.
Today the optic is a vital piece of the rifle. You cannot learn to use the rifle correctly without the optic.
Complication
03-13-10, 13:04
Today the optic is a vital piece of the rifle. You cannot learn to use the rifle correctly without the optic.
That might be taking it a little far. I'd say the optic is a vital piece of the rifle and thus training with it should be a priority.
That said, the optic WILL break down one day (or run out of batteries at the wrong time). At that point, there IS a correct way to use a rifle without the optic, and you should know it. Not knowing how to use your rifle without an optic is like not knowing how to clear malfunctions because "they rarely happen."
Today the optic is a vital piece of the rifle. You cannot learn to use the rifle correctly without the optic.
Ummm... no. Optics enhance firearms, but they do NOT replace the fundamentals of shooting and do not render a firearm useless without them. A target with irons aimed at his chest at 50yds is just as dead as one with a red dot aimed at them. There's nothing "correct" about it. The only thing a RDS will allow you to do is get on target faster - the rest has nothing to do with an optic or lack thereof.
That might be taking it a little far. I'd say the optic is a vital piece of the rifle and thus training with it should be a priority.
no, I am not ;)
That said, the optic WILL break down one day (or run out of batteries at the wrong time). At that point, there IS a correct way to use a rifle without the optic, and you should know it. Not knowing how to use your rifle without an optic is like not knowing how to clear malfunctions because "they rarely happen."
Like when learning to drive a car, "advanced" techniques come later. I do not dispute that you need to learn to use your BUIS. But in todays world with todays methodologies, the RDS type optic is a vital first line piece of the rifle.
why? It has been shown that he can get a very good quality firearm AND a very good quality optic, and meet the rest of his needs and stay within budget. Please tell me this isn't due to some antiquated and romanticised notion that "you should learn irons first".
Quality, yes, but is it what he wants? Only he can answer that. However, the chances of that exact combo suiting his original interests aren't exactly astounding. He'd be less limited if he purchased the rifle and everything MINUS the optic, then checked to see how much he had left... and then came back later after he had saved up more (if necessary).
It's sort of like trying to buy a sports car on a very minimal budget. Sure, you may get your sports car, but you're going to make a lot of compromises. However, if you can drop certain options that can be added at a later date, you'll have less compromises and it'll suit your preferences better.
Anyone that thinks that way is a fool. In fact, most people should think of it quite the opposite ("well, I went and bought the ML3 in Larue cantilever mount but I would have been just as well served with the C3 + ADM straight mount because I don't use any of the features that account for the added cost of the LT/ML3")
So you're saying that there's not a weight and size savings for an Aimpoint micro? Because, based on the setup you posted, the micro would be a significant upgrade. I can easily agree that there's little difference between a C3 and ML/3 for 99% of users (my main point was the discounted Larue price + mount combo), but that doesn't negate the point. There are multiple optics offerings that he will cut himself out of by trying to make everything fit one budget (again, such as the Aimpoint micro).
as I believe they say on the interwebs "oh, the noes!" :rolleyes:
While I truly don't care what he or anyone else's receiver marks are, there's no disputing that there's more investment and resale value in having a pre-built upper/lower combo than piecing together multi-brand items. Again, roll-marks won't make a weapon any more or less deadly, but the extra $100 up front might help you get an extra $300-400 back later on down the road should you choose to sell or trade your rifle. We both know that happens much more often than people would like to admit.
actually he can afford everything AND the optic on that budget, as has been shown already.
What's been shown is that he can afford the BCM upper + spikes lower + Aimpoint C3. What hasn't been shown is that if he waits to get the optic and gets a full BCM rifle, he could come back in a few months and, along with the money he saved, get an Aimpoint micro, TR24, etc. - the actual optic doesn't matter. My point is that he won't be so limited in his rifle choices now, and he'll have more optic choices later.
The ONLY way I would agree with you re: skipping the optic is if it means he'll actually go take a class with the iron sights. If he's just going to spend a year farting around with the gun with irons only because you told him he didn't need an optic then I say buy the optic now. If, however, skipping the $465 on the C3/ADM combo now means he has the cash to go take a quality introductory class like Randy Cain's Carbine 1 where the focus is entirely on the fundamentals and where he'll actually be training with someone that understand and appreciates the iron sights, and who can teach him to get good hits out to 200 yards with those iron sights, then I would agree with you that it is worth skipping the Aimpoint and putting 600-800 rounds out of that case to good use with Mr. Cain.
This I agree with.
If, however, he's just going to go take a blasting class anyway, a year from now regardless, with or without the optic, then he might as well get the optic now.
Again, I agree, provided he gets what he wants/needs at the time of purchase. However, the only combo shown so far is the combo mentioned above + C3. Unless he specifically wanted the C3, then it's safe to say it's not his first choice and he'd be better served saving up for the optic later.
my vote: Colt 6920, an MI front sight housing light mount, surefire x300, badger tac latch, 7 Pmags, a vickers 2 point combat application sling and some training. Learn the rifle and the basics then change things as you see fit adding grips, rails optics and other "goodies". A good friend of mine that spent alot of years in the marines once said to me "the only thing you really need on a combat rifle is white light and iron sights, all the rest is just helpful".
Ummm... no. Optics enhance firearms, but they do NOT replace the fundamentals of shooting and do not render a firearm useless without them. A target with irons aimed at his chest at 50yds is just as dead as one with a red dot aimed at them. There's nothing "correct" about it. The only thing a RDS will allow you to do is get on target faster - the rest has nothing to do with an optic or lack thereof.
Uhmm, yes. Read my reply right above this one. Manipulating and shooting the carbine is different with a RDS than with irons. You need to learn to shoot with irons as a backup system (notice the words -- backup system -- something you learn to do when your main line fails), sure. But it is just that, a backup system.
Complication
03-13-10, 13:43
Not to ruin anyone's fun, but the question was essentially "What should the first $2,000 be spent on?"
In some peoples' opinions, an optic falls into the "first $2,000" category. In others' opinions, it does not. The lists provided reflect that.
Unless eo500 specifically asks, "why should I (not) get an optic instead of XXXXX?" this discussion is getting off-topic and belongs elsewhere.
.....
.....
This being my first AR, I have ruled out building my own from scratch, but I would be willing to “assemble” one from a complete upper and lower, if it could save some $.
I’d rather have a better rifle now and add “accessories” later, than have a piece of crap with all the bells and whistles. Accuracy and reliability are very important to me. I’d also rather wait to get the right rifle than pick up one off the shelf that I’m not happy with.
With the $2,000 budget I NEED to get the following:
Rifle (I’m looking at the: Colt 6920, Daniel Defense M4, DDM4v3 midlength, BCM middy, or any others you can recommend of similar quality)
Ammo (at least 1 case)
Sling (I need help with this one)
Magazines (at least 5, but preferably 10, Magpul P Mags)
Any other necessary “tools” or accessories that are deemed necessary
Am I forgetting anything on this list?:confused:
I’d LIKE, but am willing to wait to purchase when I save up some more extra cash:
Aimpoint sight (model yet to be decided)
Vertical grip
Flashlight/mount
I live in OH, so I’ll probably be taking a trip to see Grant for this purchase, but I'm not opposed to buying directly from other reputable sources. My local gun shops are sorely lacking in selection and knowledge. I want to get all my ducks in a row before I "pull the trigger" on this purchase. I’d appreciate any advice I can get from people who have been in my situation, and know a lot more than me. Thanks in advance.
My most recent (and my first AR purchase in a very long time) was the Noveske N4 Light Basic: http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lrb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=
Having drunk the Noveske Kool-Aid, I can say it does taste very good. It really shines with the heavier bullets.
Unless eo500 specifically asks, "why should I (not) get an optic instead of XXXXX?" this discussion is getting off-topic and belongs elsewhere.
I disagree. Whether or not an optic should be part of an initial carbine purchase is a very valid topic, and quite germane to this discussion.
While debating the merits of an optic itself is germane, the discussion of which one it should be (which some folks seem to be bringing into the debate) is more of a sidetrack.
Arguing that an RDS shouldn't be part of an initial rifle purchase in favor of "iron sight mastery" shows a mindset not up to speed with the best way to put holes in bad guys.
This is confirmed by discussion of "resale value" for a gun that, as a first rifle (and possibly only) carbine purchase that should be something someone holds on to for life.
Iron sights mastery is, for lack of a better term, out of date. Talking about a battery dying in mid-gunfight is silly when Aimpoint batteries last 50,000 hours. That's almost 5 years if you leave it on the whole time.
Not getting an RDS initially because you may want to get something later? What a silly argument. Is the OP not going to be able to save up money after this initial purchase? Of course not. If he decides the Aimpoint isn't right, he can swap it out later. Until then, he'll still have an effective fighting gun that will enable him to get better, faster hits on target than with iron sights.
Come on. Let's get real here.
I would have gotten the optic right away if I had had enough money to do so myself. I don't see where the OP says he doesn't know how to shoot iron sights already. Maybe everyone is just assuming so because he is a noob to AR's. I would get the optic now and maybe only 500 rounds of ammo instead if that is all the money left over will buy. He can start an ammo fund to buy more later on, buying ammo is never going to end anyway. It gets much harder later on to come up with the full amount needed for the optic, than for ammo a little bit at a time. My opinions are based on my own experience and YMMV.
Get the optic now. Rob's plan is a good one.
ETA: He can take the optic off, learn to shoot his irons, put it back on and verify the zero. It's not that hard.
my two cents re: optic vs no optic, I would opt for the better parts + no optic/ammo/good carbine class option first, and then get the optic next summer
this way you'll get training sooner rather than later the utility of which is obvious
also importantly you'll get to zero your BUIS (obviously crucial) and learn your limitations with BUIS, which may not be as many as you think, but as one example, I find that I can get a 5 round group into 4-6 inches at 100 yards shooting prone with a stock 6920 (with a LaRue LT 103), but at 300 yards the short sight radius of the 6920 causes the target to totally blur when focusing on the front sight, and typically I can get a max of two rounds on target like 14 inch apart or worse (using a CSAT target); but at moderate to CQB distances the BUIS are very practicable
also, in a class, you'll see a variety of optics and set ups and you can check them out to see which you like best
then for the next class you can go with your optic, your BUIS is already zeroed, so you just work on zeroing your optic, and now you'll be able to see the difference between the two
Not my proudest moment in terms of the way it's posted, but I have a page on my site on my BCM carbine (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/59827.html).
Now, if buying today....
Daniel Defense lower, complete, with MOE grip & stock $379 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-22000&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower%20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html)
BCM upper with plastic handguards, BCM BCG & Charging handle $626 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-22000&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower%20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html)
That gets you into a complete, functional firearm for $1k, add another $60 for either a DD fixed rear sight (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=A1-BUIS) or a Magpul rear MBUS (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MBUS) if you prefer folding.
Agree with the above posters re: the Aimpoint C3 in mount @ $465 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APC3AD68&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dc3%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html).
You're now at $1100 for the rifle with rear BUIS plus $465 with the optic for a total of $1600 give or take for the complete package.
Magpul Pmag 10-pack should run you <$150/shipped bringing you to $1750, and a decent sling like the BFG Victory gets you to around $1800 total.
Herein lies your problem. Getting ammo, 1,000 rounds of it, for $200. Even if shooting Wolf that's not going to happen.
One possible solution is to buy something along the lines of a Spike's Tactical complete lower for $275 (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=104_114&products_id=86). That is nearly $100 less than the DD above, and frankly I am of the opinion that the lower these days is one of the least critical elements. The standard M4 stock is MORE than serviceable, the Spike's comes with a milspec extension so you can change it out later if you want, and the only think it needs is a MOE grip and a gapper (the A2 grip has to go, every time) and Spike's probably has those available for a slight upcharge if you call them.
Going that route would get you another $100 or so for ammo, meaning a total of $300, and it looks like AIM has a version of PMC for $310 plus shipping (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AHS223FMJ55). (caution, I have not used this ammo myself although I am planning on ordering a case to try out this week).
So my suggestion would be:
$300 Spike's lower ($275 plus shipping and transfer, may be a little over $300)
$626 Complete BCM upper
$465 Aimpoint C3 in ADM mount
$150 for 10 Pmags
$50 for BFG Victory sling
$60 BUIS
$350 ammo shipped
$2001 total package
All of the items in blue are available from G&R which may net you a slight reduction in price for the total package but should at least mean that you can get the whole package assembled for free when it arrives to you, saving you some hassle. Handguards installed, optic mounted, BUIS mounted, BCG and CH installed.
Thanks, Rob, that sounds like a great plan but I would kind of prefer to have a matching upper and lower, so right now I think I'm going to follow your advice but with a BCM lower whenever they get more in. I also like the idea of trying out a variety of ammo to find out what works best, so I can start out with a little less ammo, shoot a couple hundred rounds of a variety of ammo, and have a rifle that I'm really happy with.
SloaneRanger
03-14-10, 12:02
Here's what I'd do...
Colt 6920...$1199-$1299
10 PMags...$179.90
500 Rds Practice Ammo...$250 +/-
Basic Carbine course from LAV, Tiger Swan etc.......$500+ (depending on course length etc..)
If have any money left maybe get a white light for it......
K.I.S.S....
SR
SloaneRanger
03-14-10, 12:18
I skipped a page and seemed to miss a pretty hot 'Optics' debate...
Optics are great...A modern technological advance...much like a GPS...
However....I wouldn't go on a 2 week long hunting trip in the Yukon Territory with my shiny new $500 Garmin unless I was GD'd sure that I was VERY comfortable with the 'Old School' Land Nav techniques...And by the way I have 'outshot' considerably with my plain jane iron sighted 6920 many guys with $500-$1000 optics...at 50-100 yds...Obviously the optics have a 'huge' advantage at distances greater than that..BUT the OP said he was using it for.....
...."This rifle will be used mainly for shooting at the range, but I would like to take some courses and maybe even enter some competitions in the future, obviously, it should also be capable for use in HD".....
So..I still maintain..take a decent course and get the Optic later.....
Failure2Stop
03-14-10, 13:43
This is giving me a headache.
-RDSs are superior choices for a fighting gun beyond just close range "speed". Whether or not you choose to spend money on one has nothing to do with their use or value.
-Having a quality upper on a quality lower, filled with quality parts does not a frankengun make. "Frankengun" implies a cobbled together weapon built from cheap gunshow bin parts. It's the concept that separates frankenguns from custom guns: quality and skill.
-The next person that says that failure to agree with their line of thinking makes someone an idiot will receive an infraction. Be polite.
Just to clarify things, this will be my first AR, not my first rifle. I already know how to shoot with iron sights, I have an AK with iron sights, that I shoot it quite well. I have never used an RDS, but I absolutely want to use one on this rifle. I was pleasantly surprised that Rob was able to derive a plan that will fit into my budget with the Aimpoint.
I do plan on taking a course next summer, after I've had a chance to familiarize myself with the rifle, and make sure to work out any bugs that it may have.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this post, it was quite informative.
ADCO just came out with the Cruiser barrel. It comes with mid lo pro gas block and rifle FSB. They have almost the exact same barrel naked if you want it. It's CMV steel, medium weight. It's in Sylvania near Toledo, NW Ohio.
ADCO Cruiser: 425 (stripped CMV medium weight: 245)
White Oak upper: 125
Spike's Lower: 110 (no FFL fee if purchased there)
BCM BCG: 150 when I got mine
I prefer medium weight barrels, not too skinny, but a lot lighter than HBAR.
I just shot mine for the first time today. It was really. I have the Spikes ST-T2 buffer, which I'd recommend. The recoil goes straight back and forth, no bounce at all, very tight.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/4429570783_41cc6d383e.jpg
SloaneRanger
03-14-10, 17:27
Since you do now in fact definitely want the scope this may help....
http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww270/ElliottGray74/aimpoint-chart.jpg?t=1268604715
Usually a good idea to give credit where you get a resource, especially when the source (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsFFHwq_KhEISQ&output=html) posts on a forum and has posted in a given thread. ;)
SloaneRanger
03-14-10, 18:39
Fair point Rob..
Not trying to steal anybody's thunder...I actually pulled it from here......
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833026
post #4.....
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