View Full Version : civilian ownership of peq 15a
is it legal as a lay person to purchase and own a peq 15a or comparable device from a law enfforcement officer who obtained it legally? your thoughts and ideas would be most appreciated. i cannot seem to get an answer to this question. hill 300
John_Wayne777
03-14-10, 23:16
If the item is not stolen military equipment, it's legal to purchase. IR lasers/illuminators are not sold to the public widely because of consumer safety concerns, namely people burning their eyeballs with the lasers.
I have yet to see a retailer that will sell one to someone who does not hold DoD or LEO ID.
You can find them on Ebay from time to time.
The PEQ-15 uses a class 3B laser which is not eyesafe.
To put it in perspective, a good quality laser pointer is .5mw. Even on LOW a PEQ-15 (non-DBAL version) is 10x more powerful.
At HIGH it's 90 times more powerful. So just something to consider.
The regulation applies to sales and not ownership. If you can find a used one for sale you can legally own it BUT you will not be able to legally purchase one new.
There are very strict regulations on how the sales go down through dealers. Items must be purchased on dept letterhead/PO, to be delivered to a dept address, with dept payment. Individual purchases are not allowed.
I have been on both sides of the fence, end user and now dealer (for LDI). It's unfortunate but thems the rules.
To put it in perspective, a good quality laser pointer is .5mw. Even on LOW a PEQ-15 (non-DBAL version) is 10x more powerful.
At HIGH it's 90 times more powerful. So just something to consider.
Think maybe you're thinking of the PEQ-15A (DBAL), after all. It's got more juice.
Insight AN/PEQ-15
Aim Laser(s)
VIS = 4mW, +/-1mW
IR LO = 600uW, +/-100uW
IR HI = 25mW
Illuminator (IR only)
LO = <3.5mW
HI = 30mW
As mentioned before, since the aim laser on HI is a Class 3B laser (NOHD = 234m; Army says different, but they're test protocols for such things are pretty...well, shitty), the PEQ-15 a restricted item. Being able to purchase one as an everyday individual is supposed to be nigh-impossible, however, it's merely very difficult.
While I can't think of a single earthly reason why a civilian would need one, I also don't think that that means that the tectonic plates are going to catastrophically shift because one manages to get his meathooks onto one. It can be done if you look around hard enough. If you get the opportunity to make a purchase, call Insight and run the serial # to make sure it's cool (i.e., not stolen, on some list that states it was/will be destroyed, etc.), presuming you have no interest on being party to a felony. Cover your ass, legally. If the seller objects, dime his ass out immediately, it's a sure flag that they're in the wrong.
Think maybe you're thinking of the PEQ-15A (DBAL), after all. It's got more juice.
Insight AN/PEQ-15
Aim Laser(s)
VIS = 4mW, +/-1mW
IR LO = 600uW, +/-100uW
IR HI = 25mW
Illuminator (IR only)
LO = <3.5mW
HI = 30mW
As mentioned before, since the aim laser on HI is a Class 3B laser (NOHD = 234m; Army says different, but they're test protocols for such things are pretty...well, shitty), the PEQ-15 a restricted item. Being able to purchase one as an everyday individual is supposed to be nigh-impossible, however, it's merely very difficult.
While I can't think of a single earthly reason why a civilian would need one, I also don't think that that means that the tectonic plates are going to catastrophically shift because one manages to get his meathooks onto one. It can be done if you look around hard enough. If you get the opportunity to make a purchase, call Insight and run the serial # to make sure it's cool (i.e., not stolen, on some list that states it was/will be destroyed, etc.), presuming you have no interest on being party to a felony. Cover your ass, legally. If the seller objects, dime his ass out immediately, it's a sure flag that they're in the wrong.
While I agree with most of your post (except there are 2 versions of the DBAL and ATPIAL with different power outputs), I will have to ask why you think any civilians may not need one? There are NUMEROUS night hunters out there for instance that a IR laser helps them immensely with varmint control for starters. Self protection is another. I wish ALL IR lasers could be FDA legal for sale as folks can be trusted with a firearm, but not a laser? Just my humble opinion on this coming from someone who uses a lot of these devices.
Vic
I wish ALL IR lasers could be FDA legal for sale as folks can be trusted with a firearm, but not a laser? Just my humble opinion on this coming from someone who uses a lot of these devices.
i'm totally against federal regulations that don't directly affect interstate commerce as it relates to the actual interstate travel of money and goods, and only then when there is an exceptional need for mature interference, as all other federal regulation is completely and totally unconstitutional..
however, people can be pretty stupid, and i'm sure eye-damaging IR laser NDs would be a lot more common if everybody and his uncle could just walk into Walmart and buy one. should they be able to? hell yes. would most people be stupid with them? hell yes.
While I can't think of a single earthly reason why a civilian would need one...
With the exception of designating a target for optically guided ordnance, I would presume the uses for civilians would be identical to that of the military. Hunting and defense at night.
I personally can't seem to find it in my budget, but would consider it just like a white light in regards to tools available for use in a specific role.
I think Vic and Shivan summed it up perfectly for me. I own a couple of the ATPIALs (all legal and clean units) and I use them for night hunting (helping cull coyotes out in eastern oregon) as well as run and gun night matches. It's fantastic technology, and I agree I scratch my head as to why it's LE/MIL 'sale' only. If I can handle the responsibility of a firearm, I can safely manage a laser.
That said, I do think the uses are justified, as mentioned. No way would I want to pop off my white light given the option of being able to search and designate with an IR source. Ever.
folks can be trusted with a firearm, but not a laser? Just my humble opinion on this coming from someone who uses a lot of these devices.
My own job and lasers, up to the 1-watt range? Yeah. We've met. :D
Don't read too much into what I typed. I've lost count of how many folks I've seen procure the things...without bothering to think about what they're going to use to see the damned IR beam. That's all.
If you have and use I-square devices, that's a different story, you've actually put some thought into it instead of just getting the laser because it's cool, which is the trend, not the exception. Lots of wasted $$$, there, on the difference between need and want.
Safety is another thing. I see whole reams of BUMED and other incident reports regarding laser incidents within the military, where a user is likely to get some sort of brief, even if it's bastardized and they sleep through it. Civilians...hell, show me a site with a specs listing that lists, much less defines, the NOHD of a Class 3R VISIBLE laser. An IR laser? "Well, if I can't see it, it must not be able to hurt my eyes (presuming that they know that lasers can burn retinas to begin with)."
That last, in my mind, is the reason for the mil/LE restriction, and while I know in my gut that it's probably too much of a blanket policy, I see too many permanently damaged eyes to want to see it lifted. There are idiots in the business world with vis-green laser pointers that are rated 3R and have an NOHD of 28m+, designed for use in large auditoriums, in a 12x15 break-out room with floor-to-ceiling windown and shiny wet-erase boards. No clue why that's A Bad Thing. It's even easier to be negligent with a beam you can't see.
Hell, part of it is also that the glamor of the things is lost on me; I can yank the things out of a cage by pointing and saying "Gimmie!" Matter of familiarity breeding contempt, I'm positive. The honeymoon's over.
Potentially, but 4500 2x-3x more than I'd ever pay for one.
do you guys think this is a legit one http://cgi.ebay.com/Insight-Technology-ATPIAL-AN-PEQ-15_W0QQitemZ270543702827QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda94b2b
when i was fixing to be deployed to iraq in kuwait we had just boxes and boxes of these things we had them everywhere we were like 5 year olds with legos i didnt know they were so expensive we would break them and just part them together with other broken ones to make them work wasnt a really big deal i just dont see the point of paying that much for them i could get a sbr and a new suppressor for the cost of one of these
They cost the gov't under $400 each, so that's quite a gouge.
My own job and lasers, up to the 1-watt range? Yeah. We've met. :D
Don't read too much into what I typed. I've lost count of how many folks I've seen procure the things...without bothering to think about what they're going to use to see the damned IR beam. That's all.
If you have and use I-square devices, that's a different story, you've actually put some thought into it instead of just getting the laser because it's cool, which is the trend, not the exception. Lots of wasted $$$, there, on the difference between need and want.
Safety is another thing. I see whole reams of BUMED and other incident reports regarding laser incidents within the military, where a user is likely to get some sort of brief, even if it's bastardized and they sleep through it. Civilians...hell, show me a site with a specs listing that lists, much less defines, the NOHD of a Class 3R VISIBLE laser. An IR laser? "Well, if I can't see it, it must not be able to hurt my eyes (presuming that they know that lasers can burn retinas to begin with)."
That last, in my mind, is the reason for the mil/LE restriction, and while I know in my gut that it's probably too much of a blanket policy, I see too many permanently damaged eyes to want to see it lifted. There are idiots in the business world with vis-green laser pointers that are rated 3R and have an NOHD of 28m+, designed for use in large auditoriums, in a 12x15 break-out room with floor-to-ceiling windown and shiny wet-erase boards. No clue why that's A Bad Thing. It's even easier to be negligent with a beam you can't see.
Hell, part of it is also that the glamor of the things is lost on me; I can yank the things out of a cage by pointing and saying "Gimmie!" Matter of familiarity breeding contempt, I'm positive. The honeymoon's over.
Roger that brother. ;)
do you guys think this is a legit one http://cgi.ebay.com/Insight-Technology-ATPIAL-AN-PEQ-15_W0QQitemZ270543702827QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efda94b2b
Check the guy out. As of today, 46 ebay trades in life and none (that's - 0) as a seller. And, he only wants $4500? Next slide...
JBecker 72
03-16-10, 23:24
They cost the gov't under $400 each, so that's quite a gouge.
now thats funny.
I have no use for one personally, but I would love to play around with someone elses kit for a night hunt.
chiefhubbard
03-18-10, 21:49
They are for sale all over, http://itargetmarketing.mybisi.com/ is just one of many and as far as I can see, there don't seem to be much control.
Cincinnatus
04-01-10, 20:20
i'm totally against federal regulations that don't directly affect interstate commerce as it relates to the actual interstate travel of money and goods, and only then when there is an exceptional need for mature interference, as all other federal regulation is completely and totally unconstitutional..
however, people can be pretty stupid, and i'm sure eye-damaging IR laser NDs would be a lot more common if everybody and his uncle could just walk into Walmart and buy one. should they be able to? hell yes. would most people be stupid with them? hell yes.
Amen. Preach it, brother!
jostha2007
11-08-13, 20:02
Gents, and i understand this is a zombie thread, but I want to share some info with you from another site in regards to civilian ownership of AN/PEQ-15 apparently ICE_HIC Anti proliferation units are out in droves looking for these devices. I would love to own one, but its not worth A. losing my hard earned money to buy one, legally, only to get it seized and B. Losing my freedom due to having illegal contraband.
So, ill stick with my civvy legal OTAL or DBAL lasers and deal.
here is the link (Yes I know its from the OTHER black rifle site, but its worth a read)
not hot linking it, but if yo ugo there you can see the letters from the agents.
Basically they have means of taking them from you even if you bought them "legally"
I read up on the FDA regulations, and we actually, as Civilians are not allowed to own them. They are, as stupid as it sounds, deemed a threat to our national defense.
Gents, and i understand this is a zombie thread, but I want to share some info with you from another site in regards to civilian ownership of AN/PEQ-15 apparently ICE_HIC Anti proliferation units are out in droves looking for these devices. I would love to own one, but its not worth A. losing my hard earned money to buy one, legally, only to get it seized and B. Losing my freedom due to having illegal contraband.
So, ill stick with my civvy legal OTAL or DBAL lasers and deal.
here is the link (Yes I know its from the OTHER black rifle site, but its worth a read)
not hot linking it, but if yo ugo there you can see the letters from the agents.
Basically they have means of taking them from you even if you bought them "legally"
I read up on the FDA regulations, and we actually, as Civilians are not allowed to own them. They are, as stupid as it sounds, deemed a threat to our national defense.
Those threads are old news. If anything all they accomplished is driving people underground, regardless of the legality of their systems. There's nothing about the lasers that prohibits civilians from owning them, the argument is that because of the terms under which they have been sold by the manufacturers, there's no way that they could be put in civilian hands legally. It is all variance-based.
Essentially the argument is this:
L-3 or BE Meyers only sells to .mil or LEO. .mil and LEO under their provisions of sale state that these lasers will never be sold to individual officers, soldiers, etc. and must remain unit property and must be destroyed or returned to manufacturer upon end-of-life, never sold to individuals.
LEO sells surplus units to civilians contrary to their sales provisions with the manufacturer. If a civilian purchases one of these, it is defacto "illegal" in that the seller is breaking their terms with the manufacturer.
While not illegal in terms of breaking a federal law (aside from actual stolen property), technically the providing entity has broken their contract with the manufacturer. What comes out of that is sort of a gray area. A typical example used by DHS would be, "IZLID's have only ever been sold to the military, ergo, if there's one outside of military control in the hands of an individual, it is stolen." That logic has been used across the board, even with legally acquired lasers. Essentially, there are loopholes that exist in the law, but DHS chooses to ignore said loopholes, and the cost of the device pales in comparison to the cost of defending oneself from confiscation or prosecution.
Realistically of course, it's not worth the hassle since the laser classes which fall under the scrutiny are those which are used to call in CAS and the like, something which a civilian is unlikely to encounter. Aiming laser power ranges are more than adequate for small arms engagement ranges.
The thing that I take issue with is that laser illuminators fall under this, and these are really where the best use lies in the civilian market. An illuminator hald the size of a Mk-31 flare pen that illuminates as well as an SPIR should not be controlled in the same manner as a non-diffused aiming laser. In my mind they should be two separate categories.
As far as "allowed," there are many many people building their own high-power lasers completely within the law, regardless of wavelength. Check out laserpointerforums.com for examples. Completely within the law.
Another hypothetical, let's say I work for a large touring entertainment company. We hold various lasers and the variances to operate said lasers. Let's say that because the building lights are out during a show, the visible wavelength lasers for a show don't have to be very high powered. Sweet, we've got a variance for a visible laser that we will use during the show. Well shitsnacks, when all the building lights are on during load-in I can't see to position my lasers. FDA requirements are very strict in terms of how lasers have to be positioned and travel paths and minimum distances, etc. I absolutely have to be able to see where my lasers terminate!!! Well how am I going to do this? The show has to go on, and I don't have enough time to get the lights off because one of the carpenters had to go to the doctor to get this ball rash checked out that he got from this skank groupie in San Antonio. Shit, we're behind on load-in, the building electrician showed up an hour late, the motors came from North Dakota so they're damn near frozen and we have to wait an hour for them to warm up before we can even come close to flying the rig. On top of the motors and the building guy and the carpenter with the rotten wiener, I still have to figure out a way to aim this fancy Nd:YAG!!!! Crapcakes, I'm one screwed roadie, and not in the "hey do my cues so I can take this chick back to the bus real quick."
But, I'm a smart guy, I remember that I've got this cool little NOD in my bunk, with an awesome IR filter over the lens that blocks out pretty much everything but the IR spectrum. I get this great idea that I'm going to take a PEQ-15, screw a picatinny rail to the top of my laser and use the IR laser on the PEQ to aim with!!! I'm the goddamn Batman!....errrr genius! Sweet, I figure it all out, I fill out the variance, all my ducks are in a row. Rail is mounted. Everything is aligned and it's gonna work great and save me time and rainbow farts and unicorn assholes and puppies galore!!!! Guess what, the manufacturer can still tell me to go pound sand, even though I have an entirely legal FDA variance in my hot little hands. The government says it's all good, and the manufacturer can still tell me to eat a bag of dicks. In the end, despite all the work, and even having legal standing, it's still a pain in the ass and I tell the production manager that we need to hire another 4 guys, call the steward, he makes a phone call, and we finish early enough to get a blackout and I can shoot some beams.
The moral of the story is, we have a great many options that are entirely designed with the civilian IR laser user in mind. They do a great job. In fact, because they're designed specifically to fit within those limitations, manufacturers do all they can to make sure they're as useful in the civilian market as possible. I can get a super whiz-bang IZLID of eyeball burning justice, but it doesn't suit my purposes at all, and it's not worth the hassle to source one legally, and they go for way too much to risk sourcing one illegally. Bottom line, a civvy laser will do everything you need it to, if you need a high-powered laser you will either be issued one, or you can build one completely legally, and it's not worth the hassle or risk to get a real deal awesome IR light saber of DOOOOOOOM! Do I want an IZLID 1000P? Absolutely! For the same reason I want a BAR and an MP-5SD and a Mk19. Do I have the time, money, or inclination to go about acquiring one legally? Nope. Do I have the space in my prison purse to risk acquiring one illegally? Not a chance. Should they be restricted in the way that they are? Not at all.
jostha2007
11-09-13, 13:45
Well said, and I completely agree with what you are saying. To be honest my OTAL (Civvy legal) does everything I need it to. Infact I am upgrading to the DBAL-i2 (another civvy variant) that will do exactly what i need it to. I have an IR filter built into my scount light (again civvy legal) and a nice lower class IR laser will completely suit my needs. Do I want a PEQ15, yes, do i want to risk losing it if I get it legally? No, not at all, and I am not willing to attain anything stolen, what so ever, so Ill stick with what I got.
coastwatcher42
11-19-13, 14:59
I too would like to have a PEQ-15, but the risk involved is more than I'm willing to take. So, I guess I'll stick with civilian legal lasers. By the way, has anyone heard any updates on when (or if) the L3 Insight Carbine Infrared/Visible Laser (CIVL) will be available?
Gray Ghost
11-22-13, 02:08
I own a couple of the ATPIALs (all legal and clean units)
That's sounding like that's not actually the case.
No clue how Stickman and all the other hundreds of photos I've seen online of guys with these mounted on their rifles (Mk18 clone thread on arfcom..) can legally own them.
Were they ALL stolen units (with maybe the exception of soldiers or LE agents mounting them on their personal weapons)?
It's real simple. If an LEO or military person purchases one and then re-sells it, it is 100% legal. The issue is sales of units that have a certain Mw rating. They are regulated by the FDA as I recall and a simple Google search probably will provide all the info.
That's sounding like that's not actually the case.
No clue how Stickman and all the other hundreds of photos I've seen online of guys with these mounted on their rifles (Mk18 clone thread on arfcom..) can legally own them.
Were they ALL stolen units (with maybe the exception of soldiers or LE agents mounting them on their personal weapons)?
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