View Full Version : How could you own a gun!??!
Complication
03-14-10, 23:26
Warning, this might get a little philosophical (and long)...
There are plenty of issues in the world which seem to have two (or more) fundamentally differing views. In simple terms, these views are often differentiated by default assumptions. For some people, having or doing X is the default state and they feel that there need be no reason to have or do X. For others, not-X is the default, and while X may be okay, there needs to be a really good reason for it.
I own a gun (three, actually) and I own a dog.
I love my dog. I'd say that he's the closest thing I've got to family, but I consider him, without reservation, part of my family no different than if he were my kid. I get that some people aren't dog people. I understand that. I even understand that some people have had traumatic experiences with dogs that leaves them afraid of dogs no matter what. I get that.
But whenever I'm out walking him, there are people who will literally cross a 4-lane street to get away from him. He's 80 lbs and still a puppy so I could understand if someone was a bit intimidated and stepped off the sidewalk and gave me a wide berth. But these folks will all but run from him. Mostly, they tend to be Asian or Indian, which leads me to think it's cultural. But even then, why is their cultural default to be terrified of dogs? I just have trouble understanding it. Perhaps I'm just blinded by my love for my dog.
I can understand that there are people out there who simply do not like guns. Most people I've met who don't like guns have admitted to shooting one and thinking it was a fun experience. But largely, they're not intrigued by them, they're not interested by them, and they'd never own one. I can understand these people. That's fine by me. But these are people who are largely indifferent to those who own guns. "Sure, cool, just not my cup of tea."
I can also understand that there are probably plenty of people out there who have had some traumatic experience which has left them vehemently opposed to guns. I don't necessarily agree with their emotional view, but I can certainly understand it.
But then there are people who seem to have the view that guns are inherently evil. Somehow there are people out there who think that the only logical explanation for having a gun is if your job puts you in harms way, i.e. a police officer. While I agree that those jobs carry a much higher risk of harm than the typical 9-5, the implied assumption these people hold seems to be that, unless you have one of these jobs, you are inherently safe AND that shooting, as a hobby or sport, is no better than animal cruelty. I'm not talking about idealogical groups, the media, or some political party. I'm talking about people who, on the individual level, think that gun ownership is somehow indicative of violent intentions and that shooting, as a recreational activity, is some grotesquely violent act.
I am not especially surprised when I find out someone's a gun owner. To me it's like finding out someone's favorite sport is football or hockey or baseball. I know some people who don't follow sports at all, I know some people who follow 5 sports at a time, and I know some people who follow only this one or that one. Big deal. Personal preference. I can argue all day as to why this sport is superior to that one but, when it comes down to it, who cares? What sports you like (or if you like any at all) is your business and why should I especially care?
But why is owning a gun, for some people, like saying, "I love violence and my secret wish is to kill tons of people some day"?
Have these people just not thought their positions through? Am I just unable to see some aspect of their position which would make me have a eureka moment and say, "Ah, now I understand"? Or maybe these are just two examples of things which "just make us all different." Maybe these are simply things that people "just disagree on." But I have trouble wrapping my head around it.
I know that it's a bit like preaching to the choir, here. I know I'm unlikely to come across someone on this forum who hates guns. But does anyone have any thoughts on the matter or maybe some close friends/family who are just really opposed to guns and can help shed some light on this for me?
geminidglocker
03-14-10, 23:40
I'll bite. My Aunt once told me after concluding the gun conversation: "Well, if I owned a gun I'de probably be in jail because there are quite a few people I would've killed over the years." I was like, "Just because you get mad at people does'nt mean that you have to become violent, or kill them just because you feel offended or whatever."
It's not like those of us that carry guns everyday just up and shoot the first person that pisses us off. I guess some folks just don't trust themselves with being responsible enough to carry a gun. They don't realize that it's more often than not, for defensive purposes. A "Just incase" type of thing. It's just incase I HAVE to shoot someone/thing, not just incase I get angry and WANT to shoot someone/thing.
:confused:
citizensoldier16
03-14-10, 23:55
Someone said this to me the other day: "Why do you own a gun? Don't you know we have police in this town?"
To which I replied: "Why do you own a car? Don't you know we have buses in this town?"
That ended the conversation on firearms.
I own guns for many reasons. One reason is for self defense. It's alot like wearing my seatbelt when in a car/truck or wearing my helmet when riding my motorcycle. I do not wish to be in an accident. I just prefer to be as prepared as I reasonably can for a possible situation.
But why is owning a gun, for some people, like saying, "I love violence and my secret wish is to kill tons of people some day"?
Have these people just not thought their positions through?
Beyond mistrust of their personal self control (something I too have heard as an anti's motive) I think for some people, guns have a "totem" effect. They are physical symbols of "spiritual" realities. They have grown up with "cops 'n robbers" as a form of entertainment both in kids games and on TV. There are cops, and there are robbers . .. you never see a legally carrying citizen depicted on TV. All citizens are helpless when the gun weilding bad guy arrives, until the gun weilding cop stops them. This motiff is repeated over and over and over in countless shows and reruns, all of which are echoes of the childrens games . . . in which there were only cop & robber, good guys and bad guys . . . sometimes victims that needed saving, but obviously they'd be unarmed. So we have a couple of generations since the radio serials transitioned into the TV drama, a couple generations since cowboys and indians gave way to cops and robbers as the binary subjects of children's games and entertainment.
Most people, when asked if they want to be a cop . . . default to some variation on "hell no" . . . the pay sucks for the trouble, the hours suck, there is a lot of suck. I have never met a dentist that wanted to be a cop, nor a lawyer, nor anything that starts at better than 50K. So if you aren't going to be a cop & you have this binary idea of who has guns . . . that leaves robber, complete with prison and all that jazz. You thought people (average joe citizen) were emphatic about not wanting to be cops . . . well, career criminal is something most people try even harder to avoid. So obviously they wouldn't need or want a gun. The whole worldview of this form of anti is shaped around the idea that gun owners are either "cop" or "robber".
The third way (citizen gun owner) seems absolutely foreign & just a little mind boggling to them.
I'll bite. My Aunt once told me after concluding the gun conversation: "Well, if I owned a gun I'de probably be in jail because there are quite a few people I would've killed over the years." I was like, "Just because you get mad at people does'nt mean that you have to become violent, or kill them just because you feel offended or whatever."
It's not like those of us that carry guns everyday just up and shoot the first person that pisses is off. I guess some folks just don't trust themselves with being responsible enough to carry a gun. They don't realize that it's more often than not, for defensive purposes. A "Just incase" type of thing. It's just incase I HAVE to shoot someone/thing, not just incase I get angry and WANT to shoot someone/thing.
:confused:
I don't know your aunt or what she's like, but I respect that point of view. I respect someone that will say "I'd rather not have one around because there's the very slim chance I might use it for the wrong reason someday." But for some reason, I imagine she is probably a nice lady and was exagerrating her point.
My buddy sold his Mustang along the similar logic. He never got speeding tickets and didn't (read: rarely) drag race, but to resist the urge and accessibe speed drove him to buy an Accord. Having a kid influenced that decision too, but he insists it was him growing up and not wanting the temptation around.
Personally, I didn't know anyone that had legal guns when I was growing up, but I have been into cars my whole life. One reason I fell in love with firearms is their mechanical function, similar to cars. Fixing, cleaning, maintaining and driving cars/shooting firearms makes me serene.
I don't know your aunt or what she's like, but I respect that point of view. I respect someone that will say "I'd rather not have one around because there's the very slim chance I might use it for the wrong reason someday." But for some reason, I imagine she is probably a nice lady and was exagerrating her point.
My buddy sold his Mustang along the similar logic. He never got speeding tickets and didn't (read: rarely) drag race, but to resist the urge and accessibe speed drove him to buy an Accord. Having a kid influenced that decision too, but he insists it was him growing up and not wanting the temptation around.
Personally, I didn't know anyone that had legal guns when I was growing up, but I have been into cars my whole life. One reason I fell in love with firearms is their mechanical function, similar to cars. Fixing, cleaning, maintaining and driving cars/shooting firearms makes me serene.
I sold my motorcycle for the same reasons your buddy sold his car. I also keep a gun for the wellfare of my family. We're safer without the bike and safer with the gun.
Macx,
To further illustrate your point of the entertainment media only showing the opposing poles of gun possession (cops and robbers) and not showing the citizen gun owner - usually when the citizen is shown owning a gun things go horribly wrong or there is a big family controversy. On "All in the Family" Archie made valid arguments for gun ownership (although the show was trying to portray those arguments as wrong-headed and ridiculous). When he finally got a gun the crooks showed up and took it from him. There have been many other shows where the family got a gun and then ended up thinking it was a bad idea and getting rid of it (Family Ties comes to mind which makes it even funnier to see Steven Keaton as Burt in Tremors). I can't think of a TV show where a citizen gun owner is portrayed as a normal every day guy/girl.
I also remember Jodie Foster talking about how guns should be outlawed because there are times she was pissed off enough to shoot people. Jodie, just because you're a psychopath doesn't mean no one should own guns. I actually am a little more careful to avoid confrontation since I carry.
I don't know your aunt or what she's like, but I respect that point of view. I respect someone that will say "I'd rather not have one around because there's the very slim chance I might use it for the wrong reason someday." But for some reason, I imagine she is probably a nice lady and was exagerrating her point.
The problem is that many times this point of view is slightly more extreme and consists of people projecting what they fear as their own lack of judgement/self-control/discretion/etc onto everyone else.
Have these people just not thought their positions through? Am I just unable to see some aspect of their position which would make me have a eureka moment and say, "Ah, now I understand"? Or maybe these are just two examples of things which "just make us all different." Maybe these are simply things that people "just disagree on." But I have trouble wrapping my head around it.
I wouldn't sit around and hold your breath waiting for that eureka moment, because it ain't coming. Some people are just wired different for whatever reason. I find it hard to wrap my head around it as well, but it is what it is. Personally I think there is a whole hell of a lot of irrationality and fallacious reasoning (along with a good dose of nanny-statism) on that side.
It annoys me that some people will go out of their way to be offended by firearms.
I was recently told about a debate in the UK Parliament where somebody suggested that AR-style rifles should be banned because they would scare the general public. I don't have a source for the quote but I completely believe it is possible.
I suppose it's an understandable comment, scary black rifles putting the wind up old Mrs. Miggins down the road etc, except...
...to go shooting, the rifle is carried in a secured and non-descript case straight to the car, then driven to the secure range, where the (still bagged) rifle is carried in through locked doors and various security measures to an area where only members can enter, then unbagged and used. Pretty standard requirements for UK club-based shooters.
Old Mrs. Miggins could potentially and in some limited and unlikely circumstances see the shadow of the rifle as it was being transferred to the gun safe if she spent her time with her nose pressed up against the first floor windows peering in. Or if she tackled the evil nasty target shooter in the few steps between the door and the car and used some boltcutters to get into the case. Or if she visited the range - though non-members need to complete visitor access requests before they are allowed on site so it might take her some time and she'd need to discuss her reasons for visiting with the club first. Heck, she could even join the club so she has the opportunity to get really really scared. :rolleyes:
Still, someone somewhere is offended by the idea that they might possibly be scared because they might possibly manage to see something that requires a ridiculous amount of time and effort (and probably some "breaking and entering") for them to see.
Leave us alone!
On a side note, I bet I have had to put up with levels of assessment, scrutiny and background checking several magnitudes higher than the people complaining have ever been subject to. One difference between 'us' and 'them' is that at least 'us' having FAC's prove to the world that we don't have any skeletons in our closet. :D
Sorry, that turned into a bit more of a rant than anticipated. Apologies if it went off topic a bit there.
Donbeeler49
03-15-10, 09:24
I've been around folks with different views about guns my whole life. I respect all reasons why or why they don't own a weapon. What I wish is that they would all respect my beliefs and leave me and my Second Amendment right alone!! People shouldn't stick their stinking nose into my business. I don't try to gag and silence those bleeding heart liberals when they defame the country I served for 26 years! I have my personal beliefs about what should happen to them, but that's for another thread. My point is just believe in what is true and always speak the truth! We have ours Constitutional rights for a reason and as soon as the American people rally around those rights, the better off our Rebublic will be.
Macx,
To further illustrate your point of the entertainment media only showing the opposing poles of gun possession (cops and robbers) and not showing the citizen gun owner - usually when the citizen is shown owning a gun things go horribly wrong or there is a big family controversy. On "All in the Family" Archie made valid arguments for gun ownership (although the show was trying to portray those arguments as wrong-headed and ridiculous). When he finally got a gun the crooks showed up and took it from him. There have been many other shows where the family got a gun and then ended up thinking it was a bad idea and getting rid of it (Family Ties comes to mind which makes it even funnier to see Steven Keaton as Burt in Tremors). I can't think of a TV show where a citizen gun owner is portrayed as a normal every day guy/girl.
I also remember Jodie Foster talking about how guns should be outlawed because there are times she was pissed off enough to shoot people. Jodie, just because you're a psychopath doesn't mean no one should own guns. I actually am a little more careful to avoid confrontation since I carry.
I vaguely remember an episode of "Crossing Jordan" where a lawer (ADA?) shot a killer because she was carrying. The show "Bones" has a little bit of non-cop carrying too, but not too much. Also, now that I think of it, one of my favorite shows "NCIS" had at least one episode where a lady shot an attacker in her home. (I love NCIS, but Ducky's veiws on hollow points has me a little perturbed.)
Robb Jensen
03-15-10, 09:37
Guns empower people. Some people can't mentally handle having power.
FlyAndFight
03-15-10, 10:46
Guns empower people. Some people can't mentally handle having power.
Excellent point. It's the whole "Sheeple vs Sheep dogs" issue.
In India, China, and the middle east, dogs that are pets are kept for protection of property. That said, most dogs aren't pets but are strays. I have a friend from Saudi who literally will run away from my dog. I'll ask him to get acquainted with him, but he wants nothing to do with it. He'll even jump out of his seat when the cat licks his toe.
Guns empower people. Some people can't mentally handle having power.
This makes sense for people who don't like guns, but not for people who want guns outlawed. I know people who simply refuse to 'man up' with anything. It's almost like they're afraid someone might think they're trying to act macho or cool and get called out on it. I have one brother who got me into guns, hunts, etc, but the other one won't come shooting with us if we begged him to. I mean, what's so bad about shooting at a range that you can't spend a little time with your brothers?
Of course, this was the same guy who had to pull off the road and check himself over because a car backfired, and he was afraid that maybe he got shot by a roadside sniper and just didn't feel it yet and he was about to pass out from the paranoia....
Alpha Sierra
03-15-10, 12:35
Of course, this was the same guy who had to pull off the road and check himself over because a car backfired, and he was afraid that maybe he got shot by a roadside sniper and just didn't feel it yet and he was about to pass out from the paranoia....I-270?
arizonaranchman
03-15-10, 14:48
Someone said this to me the other day: "Why do you own a gun? Don't you know we have police in this town?"
To which I replied: "Why do you own a car? Don't you know we have buses in this town?"
That ended the conversation on firearms.
One of the best responses I've heard in a long time! LOL
This makes sense for people who don't like guns, but not for people who want guns outlawed.
Classic projection. If I can't handle then no one else can either so no one should have the choice.
Donbeeler49
03-15-10, 15:18
Classic projection. If I can't handle then no one else can either so no one should have the choice
My point exactly. Under the law every law abiding citizen has that right whether they exercise that right or not. I don't exercise the right to burn the flag but it seems others do!( Don't get me started on that one, please!)
I-270?
No, nothing was in the news. He was just paranoid. :rolleyes:
30 cal slut
03-15-10, 15:31
I know that it's a bit like preaching to the choir, here. I know I'm unlikely to come across someone on this forum who hates guns.
I hate guns for what they do to my pocketbook.
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:p
Can also be the same type of personality that; drives down the road at a given speed and- anyone driving slower than them is an idiot, anyone driving faster then them is a maniac...
Belmont31R
03-15-10, 16:44
Lots of projection when it comes to guns.
They fear an inanimate object, and think everyone who likes them is automatically crazy.
They can't see themselves using a gun for self defense so how could anyone else?
They could see them murdering someone with it because they have mental issues so everyone else must be ready to let loose at the drop of a hat, too.
Also the hidden racism in liberals comes out because one of their biggest fears is a black man with a gun. That is the root of gun control in this country. Keeping blacks from owning guns, and most of those laws have come from democrats and progressives over the years going back to the 1800's.
I think there's two issues in this topic: why people don't like guns and why people want guns outlawed.
I can handle people who don't like guns. They're not your cup of tea and it's fair if you don't want to involve yourself with them. I respect your decision. I don't like hunting or fishing. There's nothing wrong with either, but it's not something I can see myself doing.
I don't respect people who want guns outlawed. They usually hold this view because of fear and miseducation. Laws should not be made based on emotions such a fear. Succumbing to fear is weakness. Don't make me a victim of your weaknesses. I'm afraid of rollercoasters (I'm not afraid to admit it or take shit for it :rolleyes:). I don't think they should be outlawed though.
Too many people are focused on their own agendas and why others are wrong, rather than be logical and seeing valid points on both sides. This goes for more than just guns and happens equally with conservatives and liberals. This is where I have lost much hope for everyone. Sorry for getting into a little rant. I came back to this thread about people being afraid of guns, a thing I truly appreciate, and I got mad at close-mindedness.
Complication
03-15-10, 18:40
I was having a conversation about this today. The guy I was talking to said he was really opposed to handguns but shotguns and rifles were okay. Baffled by this, I asked him why.
"Well, you can hunt with shotguns and rifles, but the only use for a handgun is to kill another human being."
I briefly mentioned competition shooting as well as the fact that some people DO hunt with pistols. I told him, "Saying handguns are only useful for killing human beings is like saying that model train sets are only useful for wasting money on or that cars are only useful for racing."
He didn't see it quite the same way. He seemed to think that the concealability of a pistol was the only reason people bought them and the only reason for concealment was murder. He did concede that maybe there were pistol owners out there who might not be sociopaths, but it was a hard sell.
Alpha Sierra
03-15-10, 18:55
I was having a conversation about this today. The guy I was talking to said he was really opposed to handguns but shotguns and rifles were okay. Baffled by this, I asked him why.
"Well, you can hunt with shotguns and rifles, but the only use for a handgun is to kill another human being."
I briefly mentioned competition shooting as well as the fact that some people DO hunt with pistols. I told him, "Saying handguns are only useful for killing human beings is like saying that model train sets are only useful for wasting money on or that cars are only useful for racing."
He didn't see it quite the same way. He seemed to think that the concealability of a pistol was the only reason people bought them and the only reason for concealment was murder. He did concede that maybe there were pistol owners out there who might not be sociopaths, but it was a hard sell.
My answer to him: have I tried to kill you yet? The only use for the Second Amendment is to use firearms as weapons, not as sporting goods.
The simple answer is this: ignorance.
My family was originally from NYC, and I was born in the Jersey suburbs. We moved to the Philly suburbs in south Jersey when I was 2, and to the Chicago suburbs when I was 4.
I grew up in places that ban guns or severely restrict them. I've always liked guns from a mechanical point of view, and knew about different types of guns from movies and magazines, but never really envisioned myself owning one. I had plenty of toy guns as a kid, even the earliest AirSoft (Soft Air back then) lookalikes from Daisy.
Part of my reluctance was brainwashing by the media where I grew up. I believed in the 2nd amendment, but thought as a young adult that we should allow long guns with almost no restrictions but severely limit handguns. That way we keep the guns we need for militia uses (2nd amendment) and limit the ones most often used in crime. The idea of owning and carrying a handgun was completely foreign because that was simply not allowed at all in Illinois, and still isn't. FWIW, I thought the AWB was stupid when it was enacted because it didn't accomplish anything.
Then there is the ignorant rube generalization you get in these places. The stereotype is that only paranoid far-right hicks own guns or get enjoyment from using them, and that educated upper-middle class professional people don't do such things (except maybe for expensice over-unders). This was reinforced to me as a kid when I was looking at the handguns behind the glass at a local Sportmart (I liked the Stainless 2nd or 3rd gen S&W DA semi-autos), when serveral overweight bubbas in full camo burst in looking for the duck decoys they forgot to bring along on their hunting trip. Total comedy of errors. Some of the shit people post on YouTube nowadays doesn't really help either.
When I moved to Indiana in 1996 I was surprised to hear about carry permits. Guys at work that I wouldn't trust to park my car had permits and I thought maybe that wasn't a good idea. My next door neighbor had guns, which didn't bother me at all, and when the end of 1999 came, I started thinking having a gun might be a good idea, just in case. But I felt self-conscious about the idea, like people would think there was something "wrong" with me.
Fast forward to 9/11 and I really starting thinking having some form of self defense at hand was a good idea. Then when my son was born and I was responsible for a helpless child, I bought my first gun. And then another, and another, and another, and so on...
I now understand the value of shall issue carry permits, as I have a lifetime Indiana permit. Lots of people have them here and it just doesn't cause any problems. I've even seen open carry (or very light concealment) occasionally and it hasn't been a problem.
So I am ignorant about guns no more.
But now my wife says she doesn't like having guns because it reminds her of the people she grew up with in a small town in Illinois. We kind of had it out last night and she professed being uncomfortable having guns in the house and that she never thought she'd have to deal with it because I wasn't into owning them when we got married. She's afraid something might happen to our son, but balked at the idea of getting a proper gunsafe, so I have a gun cabinet instead.
It seems there were various incidents where she grew up involving either deliberate shootings, or stupidity, or both. She even has a carry permit (we got them at the same time) so it's kind of weird. I think she's doing the projection thing. There's no rationality to it, it's just "how she feels". Gotta love women when they give you that line.
On a good note, the local FD did a safety presentation at my son's school (well known private Pre-K and Kindergarten) and they actually used the NRA Eddy Eagle program. I was very surprised and pleased that the school did this - and it was somewhat unexpected because I expected them to lean to the left like most schools. I think I have conditioned my son not to pay much mind to guns because there is nothing secretive about my guns. They stay locked up, but I do not hide them from him or pretend they aren't there when he's around. So he does not obsess about them like kids in anti-gun homes often do.
I hate guns for what they do to my pocketbook.
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:p
i just always tell myself it's cheaper than goin to the bar. :confused:
Complication
03-15-10, 22:02
i just always tell myself it's cheaper than goin to the bar. :confused:
That only works when you don't stock Chivas 18 at home :(
I have a friend from Saudi who literally will run away from my dog. I'll ask him to get acquainted with him, but he wants nothing to do with it.
this may be a cultural thing as I think that Muslims have a cultural bias against dogs, I think that they see them as "unclean"
Here is a analysis of Hoplophobia that explores a lot of the issues that are being discussed here:
http://www.gunlaws.com/Hoplophobia%20Analysis.htm
I think there's two issues in this topic: why people don't like guns and why people want guns outlawed.
I can handle people who don't like guns. They're not your cup of tea and it's fair if you don't want to involve yourself with them. I respect your decision. I don't like hunting or fishing. There's nothing wrong with either, but it's not something I can see myself doing.
I don't respect people who want guns outlawed. They usually hold this view because of fear and miseducation. Laws should not be made based on emotions such a fear. Succumbing to fear is weakness. Don't make me a victim of your weaknesses. I'm afraid of rollercoasters (I'm not afraid to admit it or take shit for it :rolleyes:). I don't think they should be outlawed though.
Too many people are focused on their own agendas and why others are wrong, rather than be logical and seeing valid points on both sides. This goes for more than just guns and happens equally with conservatives and liberals. This is where I have lost much hope for everyone. Sorry for getting into a little rant. I came back to this thread about people being afraid of guns, a thing I truly appreciate, and I got mad at close-mindedness.
I like your way of thinking!
Read the entire thread and I am going to give my thoughts, and attempt to not insert my sick sense of humor into this as I like the tone of this discussion.
There are some amazing thoughts here, and this is something that I have given a lot of thought to. Personally I am starting to think that taking liberals shooting is the best way to prevent gun control in the future, and since I live in a college town, and before I was laid off was a college professor, I have access to TONS of liberals. And trust me this approach works. Most people can wrap their head around the use of a tool, and if you discuss a firearm as a tool, it can really get you past some of the usual boundaries that gun ignorant people put up that prevent them from understanding their right to own a firearm.
For the record I have had people that have stopped talking to me, stopped buying my art work, and refused to come to my house after they found out I owned guns. The most recent case was a woman that came over for a dinner party with her boyfriend, and she told me she had nightmares for two days that someone was going to get shot at the party. I don't view these people as idiots, I view these people as un-educated. I walked her through the entire mechanical process of a firearm and I have to say she had no idea how they even worked, in fact I don't even think she could wrap her head around the concept of needing a bullet for the weapon to work until I sat her down and showed her the mechanical function of the firearm (minus firing it, or in her case loading it). It was a literal phobia, and I have encountered people like her before.
In my experience I have found that there is a combination of several factors that prevent people from being comfortable with guns.
The first is ignorance about guns. This ignorance seems to center more around the mechanical nature of the firearm then it does the idea of a gun. If I explain that a gun is a tool, and each gun is designed for a different function they can grasp that. If I then say for example: "Well, you are eating meat at my dinner table right now, and that animal needed to be killed at some point or else you wouldn't be eating, my hunting rifle is a tool designed for that purpose." They can grasp that, but their ignorance runs deeper in that they don't understand one simple thing: how it functions. To them they read "gun accident" and they think the magic gun fairy came around, the bullet magically entered the firearm, shot in a circle, and came back and hit the owner in the head. This mechanical ignorance is a very real thing and it can only be overcome through experience and exposure. If someone doesn't even know what makes a gun function, they will project all of their fears of being shot onto the object.
The second was mentioned earlier by someone. The totem. To some people that can't understand guns, they see them as a symbol of all of the wrongs in the world. This can be witnessed by researching the debates around police forces getting AR-15s in some of the liberal communities around the country. The gun itself is a symbol of the violence that is taking place outside of their realm of comfort. To acknowledge the symbol is to accept reality. This is something that I use for my artwork, because I focus on the power of symbolism, but it is not something I have any real idea of how to approach in regards to the individual. Unfortunately guns are a symbol in this society, and in some ways they have transcended their reality as a tool, and have become more powerful as an actual symbol. The individual that uses this symbolism as their primary backing for being anti gun has closed off their ability to reason or debate the subject. I have met people that fit in this tier that will literally tell me to my face that it is OK for a police officer to carry a bolt action .308, but not an AR15. Or that once all guns go away no violence will exist at all. They are obsessed with the fact that the simple ownership of such a symbol of power is indicative of the horrors of the world coming to fruition.
The third is past experiences. Whether it is someone that is a conservative from NYC that saw the gun violence of the 90's or someone that had a gun AD in their house, or had a friend die from a ND. Some people really literally wish all guns didn't exist because they had some horrible past experience that had there not been a gun accident, or gun violence, they would be better off. A lot of these people tend to live and let live in regards to ownership, but don't want to have anything to do with it if you ask them to tag along to the range. I respect these people as I don't know their experiences and I don't feel that it is this demographic that is really a threat to my ownership as they are usually really rational people when you discuss the realities of the world.
Fourth is us. Yep. US. As in you and me. Or well, maybe not you directly, or me directly, but the gun owning community. Some of the things that have been said, and done by gun owners, the NRA and other pro gun groups people consider very very offensive, and as a result they lump all gun owners into one group. I wont get into specifics, but someone (leftsig maybe) mentioned how he originally viewed the gun owning public, and well this is very real. The gun owning community has a tendency to flaunt it's ownership, and raise a middle finger to all of the people that disagree. A lot of people see this as un-educated, and when coupled with some of the videos of people doing stupid sh@t online, or some of the idiotic bumper stickers out there, and you create a general misconception about firearm owners. While I think the NRA is the most effective lobbying group in America, I also think the gun owning community does just as much harm to itself, as it does good with some of the approaches we take towards dealing with outsiders. This is something I try and address every time I have a conversation about firearms, and I think that the more of us that come off as responsible owners the better.
I honestly don't think there is much more to it then that. Some people will ultimately hate guns because they symbolize violence, but most simply have ignorance about the subject, or an aversion to what they see as the gun owning public. I feel blessed in that I grew up in a part of the country where the gun cabinet was next to the book shelf, and we all played lincoln logs next to both with equal respect and admiration for each cases content.
Complication
03-16-10, 08:04
Terrific response, dmcmanus.
The family I grew up in was never anti-gun, per se. But we never had any. And when I shot my first gun at a buddy's house (when I was 19--I wasn't 12 or anything) and my father asked me what I my buddy and I did that day, I say, "...and then we went out back and he let me shoot his rifle." His response was "Why?" I told him, "It's something I've never done before. I wanted to see what it was like." He simply couldn't understand why I would just want to up and shoot a gun. Then my mother chimed in and said, "I used to shoot .22's as a kid." That completely blew his mind.
That's the kind of family I grew up in. So when I bought my first gun, I was surprised that all I needed to do was fill out a form and have them run a quick check. "That's it?" I said, "No other paperwork?" Every since, I've been the vehicle for all of my friends to learn about guns and the laws (or in many cases, the lack thereof) relating to them.
I'm always getting questions like "Don't you need to be a police officer to have an AR15?" "You mean you can just walk into Wal-Mart and buy ammo?" "You can just go to the range and... just shoot? No background check?" "You don't have to register your gun?" "They sell pistols other than 9mm's?" It took me until I owned my first gun to realize that there's nothing magical about them. They're tools than can prove very dangerous if used incorrectly, but they're not nuclear bombs, people are allowed to have them.
I grew up with this unfounded assumption that if I wanted to shoot a gun, I had to join the military or be content playing a computer game. I totally agree: education and actually handling and shooting a gun are the best bet against irrational gun fears.
The best is now that my buddy comes shooting with me fairly often he's always watching movies and saying, "That's a totally unrealistic shot!" He admits that he used to think that bullets always hit their targets. Now that he's put some lead downrange he sees how hard it can be.
I use the seat belt analogy. I carry a gun for the same reason I buckle my seat belt. It's not because I anticipate getting into a wreck, or because I'm looking to go play demolition derby, but just in case someone else is either stupid or violent.
I work in an IT office, with a lot of folks from the Indian subcontinent. Their cultural view on guns is very different than ours. One newcomer asked me why I carried a gun, and to his credit, looked philosophical rather than shocked when I said "Because a cop is too heavy." You could see him considering it from that angle, and liking what he saw. Then again, he was a Sikh, and they traditionally have a more favorable view of carrying weapons than most Indians.
faithmyeyes
03-16-10, 10:21
As others have touched on, guns are symbols of violence in the same way that wrenches make you think of repair.
I get a little frustrated when pro-gunners attempt to defend firearms ownership with the sporting or competition argument. Guns are undeniably weapons. Their primary purpose is to kill things effectively and at range. Hunting is still killing things, and target competition is training for killing things.
There is a prevailing myth in our culture that death is the worst possible evil, and many who subscribe to that myth also consider guns to be evil as tools for bringing about death. These will never admit that an individual person killing another is ever acceptable, and if they're consistent, would claim they wouldn't kill a person who was attacking their loved ones because they don't want to "sink to that level."
Then there are people who are just made uncomfortable (for whatever reason) by the idea of violence or tools of violence, and don't want to think about it or be reminded of it by the presence of weapons. They have emotional reactions to weapons, and say all sorts of irrational, poorly-considered things depending on their feelings of the moment... but when someone breaks into their house at night, they may be instinctively drawn to a weapon they have no idea what to do with.
The conspiracy theorists would have you believe that another group has no problem with weapons whatsoever, but finds it advantageous to spread anti-weapon sentiment in the culture at large to reduce possible threats to their agenda.
So I guess it's a mixture of things, but I've found I can generally categorize people by the strength and direction of their reaction to the statement: "Yes, guns are for killing, and it's good to have one in case you need to kill something."
I hate guns for what they do to my pocketbook.
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:p
I just hate how small my pocketbook is
GermanSynergy
03-16-10, 11:24
Whenver I engage in such discussions with liberals, I always ask them the following.
"Do you believe the RKBA"?
"Of course not- it's arcane, outdated and just dangerous. Well, maybe muskets. The founding Fathers couldn't have forseen the deadly assault weapons available now"
"Using your logic, perhaps we should restrict freedom of speech & the press to manually operated printing presses, ink quils and hand written letters then"?
:D
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