View Full Version : Moving at the ready position
vicious_cb
03-17-10, 00:13
When making movement at the ready position, as in you are expecting a threat to pop out any second are you looking thru your optic or over/around it?
John_Wayne777
03-17-10, 07:24
I'm not sure what "making movement" is...
...but let me see if I can clear things up a bit:
From the sound of things you are referring to a situation that is highly dependent upon context. Let's do some hypotheticals.
Let's say that hypothetically I'm a police officer responding to an active shooter call in a mall. I arrive on scene at about the same time as another officer and we're heading toward the sound of the gunfire. We've spotted a guy with a gun who spots us just a few seconds later and he hops behind a column and leans out to take shots at us. We've set up behind some reasonable cover.
Now in that situation if I reasonably expect that he's dumb enough to keep prarie-dogging that bit of cover, I'll pick an aiming point and wait there safety off, finger on trigger, ready to squeeze when he pops around that corner to shoot at me again. I know where the bad guy is, I have a reasonably good idea of what he's going to do, and I've already made the decision to use lethal force. I'm looking through the optic ready to shoot because that is most appropriate in that situation.
If we back up in time for a bit and go back to a few minutes earlier when I am going through the mall to find the active shooter, it would be inappropriate to collapse my visual field to whatever I can spot through that 30mm objective. When I don't know where the threat is it is best to keep the weapon at a ready position so I can bring it into play if necessary but not have my ability to see the world around me obstructed or artificially narrowed. On the square range when facing paper targets that don't move and don't shoot back, it's possible to be in the ready position looking down through the optic because you already know what you are going to do. That may even make some people get on target faster.
In real life, however, you won't be doing that.
Jay Cunningham
03-17-10, 07:27
a situation that is highly dependent upon context
How could you suggest such a thing? Doesn't one size fit all??
:p
Jay Cunningham
03-17-10, 07:29
When making movement at the ready position, as in you are expecting a threat to pop out any second are you looking thru your optic or over/around it?
I would say that *generally* if you are not engaging a threat and have your awareness open to potential new threats, you should be looking over your optic.
NCPatrolAR
03-17-10, 14:09
I'm not sure what "making movement" is...
An overly-complex way of saying "moving"
When it comes to moving and ready positions; the situation will determine the height of the weapon. You have to be very careful when it comes to clearing through your optic since it greatly limits your field of view and you can easily end up missing threats that are outside of the scope of your vision. When clearign through the sights, we typically see people miss threats that are low (crouched/prone) or high. The average person tends to only search in a space from their waist to their shoulders in height; looking through an optic/sights tends to reinforce this negative habit.
I would say that *generally* if you are not engaging a threat and have your awareness open to potential new threats, you should be looking over your optic.
This.
If you don't have something specific to aim at, just keep your carbine up at ready but look over the sight/optic for awareness.
Your grip and cheek weld should be consistent so that it only takes a split second to aim down your sight from ready. Practice, muscle memory.
I practice looking over my optic and re-aiming for every threat. This is going to sound weird, but I think in real life it plays out the same... video games have taught me that if you have superior tactics, which are afforded by superior battlefield awareness, you can beat a better marksman almost every time.
The nerd will stop talking now...:(
Failure2Stop
03-17-10, 16:35
I practice looking over my optic and re-aiming for every threat. This is going to sound weird, but I think in real life it plays out the same... video games have taught me that if you have superior tactics, which are afforded by superior battlefield awareness, you can beat a better marksman almost every time.
The nerd will stop talking now...:(
If your only reference for offering gunfight advice is from video games you need to seriously think about your frame of reference before actually clicking on the "Submit Reply" button.
I applaud your honesty about your experience, but there are plenty of people here with numerous gunfights under their belts, and many more that have trained under those people, that are more qualified to offer actionable advice.
Gunfights: where mulligans are only offered in Valhalla.
When making movement at the ready position, as in you are expecting a threat to pop out any second are you looking thru your optic or over/around it?
Can you describe the "Ready" position your are referring to?
Citpitch02
03-17-10, 19:15
Gunfights: where mulligans are only offered in Valhalla.
Mind if borrow this? :D
Truer words have never been spoke....uh typed!
BushmasterFanBoy
03-17-10, 20:49
I'm much like JohnnyVain with respect to my realm of experience, but isn't it pretty much like JW777 said, ie, situationally dependent?
Even with respect to range training, there's not just 1 or 2 positions to memorize, there's a whole spectrum as far as having the gun lay on your chest, all the way to glaring through the tube, safety off. I think its entirely dependent on how soon you're expecting to shoot.
Chris Rhines
03-17-10, 21:21
Situationaly dependent, as said above. That said, I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where you'd want to move while looking through your optic. I suspect that it would badly hinder your ability to move quickly and decisively...
-C
Gunfights: where mulligans are only offered in Valhalla.
That is great.
Just copy whatever you see "Whiskey Whiskey" do on TV!!
vicious_cb
03-17-10, 22:15
Can you describe the "Ready" position your are referring to?
Where the rifle is already in your shoulder pocket but you arent shooting anything yet.
I was just wondering if it might be more advantageous speed wise if you were already looking through your sights instead of bringing your sights up when you see a threat.
Jay Cunningham
03-17-10, 22:25
Where the rifle is already in your shoulder pocket but you arent shooting anything yet.
I was just wondering if it might be more advantageous speed wise if you were already looking through your sights instead of bringing your sights up when you see a threat.
Oh, you might be able to shoot them quicker. But you may wind up shooting someone who is not a threat. There's a reason why we engage our safeties, too.
vicious_cb
03-17-10, 23:49
Oh, you might be able to shoot them quicker. But you may wind up shooting someone who is not a threat. There's a reason why we engage our safeties, too.
Looking through your slights might narrow your vision but I dont think it will make you blind. Also assume one is following rule number 4.
If we back up in time for a bit and go back to a few minutes earlier when I am going through the mall to find the active shooter, it would be inappropriate to collapse my visual field to whatever I can spot through that 30mm objective. When I don't know where the threat is it is best to keep the weapon at a ready position so I can bring it into play if necessary but not have my ability to see the world around me obstructed or artificially narrowed. On the square range when facing paper targets that don't move and don't shoot back, it's possible to be in the ready position looking down through the optic because you already know what you are going to do. That may even make some people get on target faster.
In real life, however, you won't be doing that.
Thanks. This pretty much answered my question.
there's different positions for different situations.. they even have names and we can easily come up with perfect examples for their execution:
"hung" - booger picking
"low ready" - did you hear something?
"high ready" - oh shit, i'm probably gonna shoot something!
"eyes-on-sights" - die, mother****er!
these work whether standing or "making movement" (if you keep your M4 slung while shitting), or even moving.
Failure2Stop
03-18-10, 05:51
Where the rifle is already in your shoulder pocket but you arent shooting anything yet.
I was just wondering if it might be more advantageous speed wise if you were already looking through your sights instead of bringing your sights up when you see a threat.
If you know a way to ensure that the target pops up directly into your reticle, please let us know. The big problem with fighting people with guns is that they don't resemble static IPSC targets in the least, and tend to move around.
If you aren't shooting or holding on an identified threat you should make every effort to clear your field of view.
John_Wayne777
03-18-10, 07:48
Looking through your slights might narrow your vision but I dont think it will make you blind.
Seeing something and recognizing something are very different. If you're in an environment where there are bad people who presumably want to kill you, odds are your adrenal glands are going to be pumping like there's no tomorrow and your bunghole is going to be puckered so tight you won't go number 2 for a week.
In that state your body does funny stuff. If you are running around with your weapon aimed with the safety off it is entirely possible to have a startle response to something that is not actually a threat and to put a bullet into it. Somebody can pop around the corner unexpectedly on you and the next thing you know you've sent a round downrange. Yes, having the weapon in that condition is faster to make a hit on target, but when we take things off of the square range and place you in a 360 degree environment filled with no shoots that bleed and die and have lawyers, suddenly that extra .5 seconds of speed carries with it a much greater potential for disaster.
You want to be ready to engage a threat...but if you're TOO ready you have a greater chance of engaging someone who isn't a threat just because of stimulus response. Stimulus: Something scary! Response: Shoot it! It's real and it happens. It's easier for that to happen when you're already sights-on whatever it is that just scared you than if the muzzle of the weapon is down, safety is engaged, and finger is off the trigger. In that situation if something pops around the corner that startles you then you'll likely bring the gun up, but you'll have sufficient time to notice that it happens to be a pregnant woman with a toddler, and not the evil dude killing people.
Also assume one is following rule number 4.
I'm not sure exactly which rule of firearms safety you are referring to as people tend to order them differently, but in real life pointing in a safe direction and knowing what is beyond your intended target is a heck of a lot harder than it is on the square range. That is yet another reason to keep the gun pointed fairly low, as that minimizes the chances of pointing the weapon at someone who doesn't need to die.
Thanks. This pretty much answered my question.
Happy to be of service.
Situationaly dependent, as said above. That said, I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where you'd want to move while looking through your optic. I suspect that it would badly hinder your ability to move quickly and decisively...
Easy one: you're putting fire on a target while advancing to cover.
vicious_cb
03-18-10, 13:04
If you know a way to ensure that the target pops up directly into your reticle, please let us know. The big problem with fighting people with guns is that they don't resemble static IPSC targets in the least, and tend to move around.
If you aren't shooting or holding on an identified threat you should make every effort to clear your field of view.
Ah, you misunderstand. What I mean to say is that the reticle is already somewhere in your field of view vs keeping it at low ready and snapping the weapon up to acquire the sights and putting them on target, in lets say a home defense scenario where you hear a funny noise and have to go about searching your house.
Then people started to complicate things by talking about having the safety off and finger off or on the trigger. I never said anything about that but yes the safety is on and the finger is off the trigger :).
I'm not sure exactly which rule of firearms safety you are referring to as people tend to order them differently, but in real life pointing in a safe direction and knowing what is beyond your intended target is a heck of a lot harder than it is on the square range. That is yet another reason to keep the gun pointed fairly low, as that minimizes the chances of pointing the weapon at someone who doesn't need to die.
Also I was going by the new 5 gun safety rules.
1. Guns are always loaded
2. Never point at anything you want to kill/destroy
3. Finger off the trigger unless rdy to fire
4. Gun on safe gun sights are on target
5. Know your target and whats behind it
Failure2Stop
03-18-10, 14:11
Ah, you misunderstand. What I mean to say is that the reticle is already somewhere in your field of view vs keeping it at low ready and snapping the weapon up to acquire the sights and putting them on target, in lets say a home defense scenario where you hear a funny noise and have to go about searching your house.
No, I didn't misunderstand, I was trying to provide explainations through examples to promote a thought process.
Also I was going by the new 5 gun safety rules.
1. Guns are always loaded
2. Never point at anything you want to kill/destroy I only point guns at things I want to destroy
3. Finger off the trigger unless rdy to fire
4. Gun on safe gun sights are on target I prefer to take the safety *off* when I am on target.
5. Know your target and whats behind it
NCPatrolAR
03-18-10, 14:39
Also I was going by the new 5 gun safety rules.
1. Guns are always loaded
2. Never point at anything you want to kill/destroy
3. Finger off the trigger unless rdy to fire
4. Gun on safe gun sights are on target
5. Know your target and whats behind it
where did you get those from?
where did you get those from?
Yah, some of those dont seem right. :confused:
PJ
Jay Cunningham
03-18-10, 22:30
1. Guns are always loaded
2. Never point at anything you want to kill/destroy
3. Finger off the trigger unless rdy to fire
4. Gun on safe gun sights are on target
5. Know your target and whats behind it
#1. Assume all guns are loaded until you verify that they are clear.
#2. Avoid letting your muzzle cover anything that you are unwilling to shoot.
#3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to engage your target.
#4. Be sure of your target and consider your target’s surroundings.
These are the Four Rules as I live them. Instead of dogma or an ideal, they are actually usable in the real world just as they are written.
vicious_cb
03-19-10, 00:51
No, I didn't misunderstand, I was trying to provide explainations through examples to promote a thought process.
yeah I forgot to put don't in there...:p
rifleman2000
03-19-10, 11:09
Easy one: you're putting fire on a target while advancing to cover.
In most situations, I would much rather do one or the other, not both at the same time.
Failure2Stop
03-19-10, 18:08
I think that it bears reminding that we do not shoot while closing because we want to, but rather because we have to. Even lateral movement incurrs a penalty that would not be present with rapid effective flanking fire.
vicious_cb
03-19-10, 20:37
Ha that what I get for typing fast.
1. Treat all guns as if they were loaded
2. Never point the gun at anything you dont want to destroy
3. Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Keep the weapon on safe until your sights are on target
5. Know target and whats beyond it
Jay Cunningham
03-19-10, 20:48
2. Never point the gun at anything you dont want to destroy
Do LEOs ever point their guns at things that they don't wind up destroying?
NCPatrolAR
03-19-10, 20:49
Ha that what I get for typing fast.
1. Treat all guns as if they were loaded
2. Never point the gun at anything you dont want to destroy
3. Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Keep the weapon on safe until your sights are on target
5. Know target and whats beyond it
Lets try this again. Where did you get those rules from?
Jay Cunningham
03-19-10, 20:50
4. Keep the weapon on safe until your sights are on target
Ever shoot a 1911?
It's interesting how Col. Cooper's four rules of gun safety, which were intended to be simple and easy to remember, seem to have an attraction to becoming twisted and overly-complicated by way of misinterpretation or apparent over-analysis. Kind of like the color code system that always seems to get bastardized... :(
Do LEOs ever point their guns at things that they don't wind up destroying?
The original verbiage was "never let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy".
Jay Cunningham
03-19-10, 21:12
The original verbiage was "never let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy".
Yes, but it got twisted into other forms, such as "intend" to destroy.
Jay Cunningham
03-19-10, 21:13
It's interesting how Col. Cooper's four rules of gun safety, which were intended to be simple and easy to remember, seem to have an attraction to becoming twisted and overly-complicated by way of misinterpretation or apparent over-analysis. Kind of like the color code system that always seems to get bastardized... :(
We owe a lot to Col. Cooper, but the training world did not begin and end with him.
I know some instructors who take Cooper's Four Rules literally. If you take his rules literally, you cannot dry-fire because all guns are always loaded.
Do people ever muzzle things that they don't intend to destroy? We all know it happens, believing otherwise is believing a lie.
Is it possible to "know" what is behind your target?
Instead of placing one's faith in dogma, we can use the brains between our ears to follow the spirit of the Four Rules. We can also write them in a way that they actually work.
I know some instructors who take Cooper's Four Rules literally. If you take his rules literally, you cannot dry-fire because all guns are always loaded.
A perfect example of over-analysis.
Do people ever muzzle things that they don't intend to destroy? We all know it happens, believing otherwise is believing a lie.
True. But, should they be muzzling things they're not willing (as opposed to intending) to destroy?
Is it possible to "know" what is behind your target?
The context is to be aware of ones surroundings.
Instead of placing one's faith in dogma, we can use the brains between our ears to follow the spirit of the Four Rules. We can also write them in a way that they actually work.
Agreed but, there are a lot of "we's" who shouldn't be writing anything!
Please don't confuse me with being a Cooper fanatic; I'm not (I don't shoot Weaver and I carry 9mm's...). However, I was brought up on the Modern Technique twenty-something years ago. It always amuses, and sometimes frustrates, me when I read references to things that I know came from Cooper but, people have bastardized, misinterpreted, or otherwise wordsmithed into something other than what was intended.
Anyway, getting way off-topic...
Jay Cunningham
03-19-10, 22:59
A perfect example of over-analysis.
True. But, should they be muzzling things they're not willing (as opposed to intending) to destroy?
The context is to be aware of ones surroundings.
Agreed but, there are a lot of "we's" who shouldn't be writing anything!
Please don't confuse me with being a Cooper fanatic; I'm not (I don't shoot Weaver and I carry 9mm's...). However, I was brought up on the Modern Technique twenty-something years ago. It always amuses, and sometimes frustrates, me when I read references to things that I know came from Cooper but, people have bastardized, misinterpreted, or otherwise wordsmithed into something other than what was intended.
Anyway, getting way off-topic...
It is off topic - if you want to discuss it further shoot me a PM.
tracker722
03-19-10, 23:01
******
To the OP, we train all our troops to use the high ready in high awareness situations and to scan. When a target presents itself, then bring the weapon up to the fire position and acquire sights.
The only time we use low ready is in the lead-up to the insertion and the "stack".
tracker 722,
I've found that when discussing this type stuff around here, it's good to define each positon as many go by different names depending on where or from whom you got your training.
Can you elaborate? Also what "troops" are you referring to?
Thanks
I can't be certain, but I would guess that the OP's question comes from movies where a team comes duckwalking through a door with their guns fully mounted and peering through their sights, waving them back and forth as they move through the scene.
it's pretty common in movies or even in videos of shoot house training where there are known threats in areas clear of furniture with good lighting.
for those guys who do this kind of stuff for a living - is it always like that when you take down crackhouses?
:rolleyes:
RWK
It's interesting how Col. Cooper's four rules of gun safety, which were intended to be simple and easy to remember, seem to have an attraction to becoming twisted and overly-complicated by way of misinterpretation or apparent over-analysis. Kind of like the color code system that always seems to get bastardized...
I agree... Kinda like what folks do with the constitution.... ;)
tracker722
03-21-10, 10:10
******
Sorry, you are correct.
High ready, long gun held in the shoulder pocket, muzzle depressed no more than 30 degrees, per Kyle Lamb.
"Troops", I have the habit of calling our officers that.
Copy thanks
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