View Full Version : You're either SWAT, or you're not.
Jay Cunningham
03-17-10, 16:35
I was at the range today tweaking the zero on my SBR when I experienced a torn case. (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49793)
After the above incident I continued zeroing. Just as I was finishing up and getting ready to move to the handgun range, a local agency SWAT contingent showed up and started to set up their tactical rifles. I know that they were SWAT because they had multicam tabs on their multicam BDUs that said "SWAT".
I showed the one guy my broken case... he immediately summoned one of his buddies who must have been the AR expert. He asked me if my chamber was real dirty and I told him that I didn't think it was too dirty. He looked again and told me it was definitely a dirty chamber and that I need to clean my chamber. He told me that with ARs, if you don't scrub the chamber with solvent and a brush every 200 rounds then you will get torn cases and broken extractors.
"No kidding? Thanks man!" I exclaimed and moved to the pistol range. I honestly never knew that ARs had to have their chambers scrubbed every 200 rounds. Learn something new every day.
Later on, the SWAT guy that told me the above and one of his buddies made his way over to the pistol range. I decided I needed to run one last drill then vacate to let them do their thing. They walked out onto the range without calling for a cease fire or anything. They set up targets and the AR expert pulls out a - wait for it - AK pistol and proceeds to blast about 10 rounds all over a silhouette making a large pattern. Without eyepro, of course.
Then he puts the AK pistol away and him and his buddy pull out their Glock service pistols and begin to pop at targets. Without eyepro, of course.
:rolleyes::p
p.s. To all the SWAT guys and LEOs out there - I am not picking on you guys, seriously! This is just one of those amusing anecdotes that I got to experience first-hand. Some of the best performing and most knowledgeable shooters that I've ever met were LEOs. Just goes to show that there are guys like this everywhere... SWAT, .mil, gun store, etc...
tracker722
03-17-10, 16:44
******
photosniper
03-17-10, 17:02
Not all SWAT guys are gun nuts. A lot of the guys on our local team are very proficient with their service weapons but really don't give two shits about guns in general. Except the snipers, they are all gun crazy.
I'm on 2 teams, one a smaller agency team that mostly does warrants and the like, then a multi-jurisdictional full-on SWAT unit. On the smaller one we don't have as much money or time. There is one bloke that doesn't like to use his sights. (Although, somehow he seems to usually shoot pretty well. When he uses them). We occasionally train with the MP5 so one day we are simulating room entries. He goes in with the MP5 stock collapsed, held a waist height and does a Schwarzenneger rock-and-roll 15 round burst on a target. He didn't think it was funny as he originally did when we started doing pushups.
I was at the range today tweaking the zero on my SBR when I experienced a torn case. (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49793)
After the above incident I continued zeroing. Just as I was finishing up and getting ready to move to the handgun range, a local agency SWAT contingent showed up and started to set up their tactical rifles. I know that they were SWAT because they had multicam tabs on their multicam BDUs that said "SWAT".
I showed the one guy my broken case... he immediately summoned one of his buddies who must have been the AR expert. He asked me if my chamber was real dirty and I told him that I didn't think it was too dirty. He looked again and told me it was definitely a dirty chamber and that I need to clean my chamber. He told me that with ARs, if you don't scrub the chamber with solvent and a brush every 200 rounds then you will get torn cases and broken extractors.
"No kidding? Thanks man!" I exclaimed and moved to the pistol range. I honestly never knew that ARs had to have their chambers scrubbed every 200 rounds. Learn something new every day.
Later on, the SWAT guy that told me the above and one of his buddies made his way over to the pistol range. I decided I needed to run one last drill then vacate to let them do their thing. They walked out onto the range without calling for a cease fire or anything. They set up targets and the AR expert pulls out a - wait for it - AK pistol and proceeds to blast about 10 rounds all over a silhouette making a large pattern. Without eyepro, of course.
Then he puts the AK pistol away and him and his buddy pull out their Glock service pistols and begin to pop at targets. Without eyepro, of course.
:rolleyes::p
p.s. To all the SWAT guys and LEOs out there - I am not picking on you guys, seriously! This is just one of those amusing anecdotes that I got to experience first-hand. Some of the best performing and most knowledgeable shooters that I've ever met were LEOs. Just goes to show that there are guys like this everywhere... SWAT, .mil, gun store, etc...
Welcome to my world.
I experience some of this every Tuesday
Most of them are pretty good, But every team has one or two of "That Guy" you can't escape it, you just keep educating them.
No offence taken here, you're just spouting facts.
Some of the SWAT cops I work with are very motivated, physically fit and proficient with their firearms. I know of a few that are too fat to pass the PT test, another that doesnt know how to field strip his M4.
Those in the latter category usually guard the truck when there is a call out.
theblackknight
03-17-10, 19:19
I'm on 2 teams, one a smaller agency team that mostly does warrants and the like, then a multi-jurisdictional full-on SWAT unit. On the smaller one we don't have as much money or time. There is one bloke that doesn't like to use his sights. (Although, somehow he seems to usually shoot pretty well. When he uses them). We occasionally train with the MP5 so one day we are simulating room entries. He goes in with the MP5 stock collapsed, held a waist height and does a Schwarzenneger rock-and-roll 15 round burst on a target. He didn't think it was funny as he originally did when we started doing pushups.
WTF. I would have went for burpies. or a boot to the chest, or terminated.
I've seen a lot of this kind of stuff too, Katar. Where I live, most are smaller departments and teams. I think this leads to a higer precentage questionable talent. Along the same lines, my knephew is a 19 y.o. marine preparing to ship to Afgan next month. He is a good kid and has learned a lot, but I will have to say, IMO, he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. I've suprised him a number of times with different recommendations for different issues. I tried to presuade him to read some tips and articles from people like LAV and Pat Rogers but he seemed unintrested, as if he already knows everything he needs to know, so I dropped it. I just hope he knows enough. And for the record, I am certainly no expert, at anything.
Jay Cunningham
03-17-10, 20:01
I've seen a lot of this kind of stuff too, Katar. Where I live, most are smaller departments and teams. I think this leads to a higer precentage questionable talent. Along the same lines, my knephew is a 19 y.o. marine preparing to ship to Afgan next month. He is a good kid and has learned a lot, but I will have to say, IMO, he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. I've suprised him a number of times with different recommendations for different issues. I tried to presuade him to read some tips and articles from people like LAV and Pat Rogers but he seemed unintrested, as if he already knows everything he needs to know, so I dropped it. I just hope he knows enough. And for the record, I am certainly no expert, at anything.
If someone asks me my opinion, I am happy to give it if I think I have some relevant info. I generally do not offer it up out of the blue, though.
If I see or hear bizarre stuff, I just keep quiet. Many times I just leave.
Business_Casual
03-17-10, 20:09
I've seen a lot of this kind of stuff too, Katar. Where I live, most are smaller departments and teams. I think this leads to a higer precentage questionable talent. Along the same lines, my knephew is a 19 y.o. marine preparing to ship to Afgan next month. He is a good kid and has learned a lot, but I will have to say, IMO, he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. I've suprised him a number of times with different recommendations for different issues. I tried to presuade him to read some tips and articles from people like LAV and Pat Rogers but he seemed unintrested, as if he already knows everything he needs to know, so I dropped it. I just hope he knows enough. And for the record, I am certainly no expert, at anything.
Anyway you can get him to read this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540
M_P
Belmont31R
03-17-10, 20:12
That would have been a handy time to print off an article from Pat Rogers about his BCM with 26k rounds through it without cleaning.
Except the snipers, they are all gun crazy.
This. could be said about almost every team that I'm acquainted with.
A lot of teams, mine included, have people that hold one, two, or all three of the following philosophies:
1. I busted my ass to get on the team, so now I can slack off,
2. Training days are little more than 2 days a month away from my primary assignment, and/or
3. Training, gear, and weapons technology hasn't changed since when I got on the team.
This type of thinking is epidemic among SWAT Teams, especially part time teams. This is because full time teams usually have a call volume, training schedule, or related duties that weed out the less motivated, or those that won't keep on top of their game, training or equipment-wise. THIS ISN'T TO SAY THAT PART TIME TEAMS ARE BAD; I'm on one, but the majority of teams in the US are part time, because their jurisdictions don't have the op-tempo, budget, or staffing to make them full time or semi-full time. The members also have other duties to which they're attached for the vast majority of their time, and these assignments all vie for time and attention. But the community still needs a tactical response unit, and it's no excuse for shitty shooting, especially on an apparently public range, where citizens can see their tax dollars being spent.
(I think there was a thread on this a long time ago, specifically about why LEOs aren't as gun savvy as they used to be, or sometimes should be.)
I've seen a lot of this kind of stuff too, Katar. Where I live, most are smaller departments and teams. I think this leads to a higer precentage questionable talent. Along the same lines, my knephew is a 19 y.o. marine preparing to ship to Afgan next month. He is a good kid and has learned a lot, but I will have to say, IMO, he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. I've suprised him a number of times with different recommendations for different issues. I tried to presuade him to read some tips and articles from people like LAV and Pat Rogers but he seemed unintrested, as if he already knows everything he needs to know, so I dropped it. I just hope he knows enough. And for the record, I am certainly no expert, at anything.
The absolute hard-headedest people I have ever met when it comes to guns and training are the 18-25 Soldier/Marine. They have had it drummed into their head that they are the baddest mother****ers on the planet, that if they need to know it the Army/Marines would have taught it to them, if they needed to have it the Army/Marines would have issued it to them, and if you didn't serve or aren't actively serving you couldn't possibly know shit from brown bread.
But they kind of have to. They need that confidence.
Might give him a copy of SWAT from a couple of months ago with Paul G's story in it about being shot, and how the Marine Corp didn't give him the training that might have prevented him from getting shot, and that he didn't get that kind of training until after he was out and it was too late.
If someone asks me my opinion, I am happy to give it if I think I have some relevant info. I generally do not offer it up out of the blue, though.
If I see or hear bizarre stuff, I just keep quiet. Many times I just leave.
I agree, and I do the same. I've always been his gun guru and he calls me from Mojave Viper about once a week to tell me what they have been into. He has shown me their TTPs on several issues and I'll suggest a few techniques he may want to try. For example, he was complaining a few months ago that a few guys were faster reloading their M16s than he was. After seeing how he was performing his reloads I suggested another technique. When he returned home 2-3 months later he advised me he was using the technique I suggested and was very pleased with it's performance. He is sort of a monkey see, monkey do kind of guy. If you show him something is better he is attentive, if you describe something without a demostration he shows no intrest. Overall I think he is performing very well, it just worries me (he is family after all) that he often thinks he knows all he needs to and shows no interest in learning more. I think he will be OK, we are praying for him.
I haven't cleaned a gun in some time, I got some dirty dirty guns. :D
Maybe they belonged to the Air Soft squad...
Speaking of AK pistols...
I had my AK pistol out at the range this past Sunday. The guy next to me commented on it to his daughter, so I felt compelled to go tell him I was just function-testing it to make sure it was worth the $350 it'd cost to SBR it. Honestly, I was kind of embarrassed to be in public with it, but hey, I gotta make sure it runs before I sink a tax stamp and the cost of a triangle sidefolder into it.
Anyway you can get him to read this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540
M_P
rob_s
The absolute hard-headedest people I have ever met when it comes to guns and training are the 18-25 Soldier/Marine. They have had it drummed into their head that they are the baddest mother****ers on the planet, that if they need to know it the Army/Marines would have taught it to them, if they needed to have it the Army/Marines would have issued it to them, and if you didn't serve or aren't actively serving you couldn't possibly know shit from brown bread.
But they kind of have to. They need that confidence.
Might give him a copy of SWAT from a couple of months ago with Paul G's story in it about being shot, and how the Marine Corp didn't give him the training that might have prevented him from getting shot, and that he didn't get that kind of training until after he was out and it was too late.
He doesn't like to read very much, although I have gotten him to read a couple of articles before. He is mostly into reading gun reviews in the gun rags. I told him of Paul G's story, he didn't seem interested enough to take it and read it but he did listen as I described his experiences instead.
Rob, I agree with you to a "T". And also feel they need the confidence as well. I can tell he has progressed quite a bit. I only wish he were eager to learn more, especially from those that have seen the "white elephant". Although he does look up to the vets within his battalion. He scored expert on the M16 and gave me the credit, which I don't deserve. I only introduced him to shooting and have shown him some basics. His mom, my sister, is convinced he is not coming home, but I disagree. I think he will be OK. I can only say that, at my age, if I were going into a combat AO I would seek all knowledge I could pack into my thick skull.
Sorry if I got a little off topic with my knephew
Jay Cunningham
03-17-10, 21:49
Maybe they belonged to the Air Soft squad...
Nah, no need to denigrate them. They were SWAT and they were out there training to do their job. Props to them, I have nothing but respect. That doesn't mean we can't poke fun at stupid stuff when we hear/see it, though.
Maybe they belonged to the Air Soft squad...
the guys that issue no-knock misdemeanor summons? :D
Heavy Metal
03-17-10, 22:07
I wish I cold find a picture of the Tazewell Co, VA Tac Team and their Carbon 15 entry 'pistols'.
Unfortunately, they pulled it off the county website when they found out they were being made extreme sport of on the internet.
Sometimes I'm amazed at the stupid ass gun questions my team mates ask. They know enough about their issued equipment to be effective but most aren't "gun nuts". I educate and correct as needed and I'm converting several.
theblackknight
03-17-10, 22:17
I've seen a lot of this kind of stuff too, Katar. Where I live, most are smaller departments and teams. I think this leads to a higer precentage questionable talent. Along the same lines, my knephew is a 19 y.o. marine preparing to ship to Afgan next month. He is a good kid and has learned a lot, but I will have to say, IMO, he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. I've suprised him a number of times with different recommendations for different issues. I tried to presuade him to read some tips and articles from people like LAV and Pat Rogers but he seemed unintrested, as if he already knows everything he needs to know, so I dropped it. I just hope he knows enough. And for the record, I am certainly no expert, at anything.
Whats his MOS? Sadly most Marines are like this. He has a good reason to be cocky, but along with that comes a closed mind in most cases. Im a POG, and I think POGs are actually worse off then grunts about this, even considering the "grunt mindset."
I have noticed that in a service, the higher you go up the skill set heirachy, the personal traits change for the better. POGs that fly a desk all day, think they are IT, no body is possibly better, the way they taught you reloads in bootcamp is the way youll do them till you die. As you move up the ladder, from grunt,to recon,to force and Marsoc, men change. Marsoc guys are easy to work with but intense, very humble and open minded, with a quite confidence about them.
Whats his MOS? Sadly most Marines are like this. He has a good reason to be cocky, but along with that comes a closed mind in most cases. Im a POG, and I think POGs are actually worse off then grunts about this, even considering the "grunt mindset."
I have noticed that in a service, the higher you go up the skill set heirachy, the personal traits change for the better. POGs that fly a desk all day, think they are IT, no body is possibly better, the way they taught you reloads in bootcamp is the way youll do them till you die. As you move up the ladder, from grunt,to recon,to force and Marsoc, men change. Marsoc guys are easy to work with but intense, very humble and open minded, with a quite confidence about them.
He is a combat engineer. And this is a story unto itself. He has never shown any interest in the military, he wanted a job that would allow him to marry his GF. He walked into a marine recruiter's office and two weeks later he was signed up as a CE, without doing any research. His mom, my sister, told the family he would be doing electrical, AC, plumbing type of work and that the Navy SeeBee's would be doing the combat work. I knew this was BS but assumed he told his mom this to keep her from worrying. I later found out this is what the recruiter told him and her in the office. I was stunned at this. To his credit he has fallen in love with the Corp and is a very dedicated Marine. I think his desire to excell as a Marine will serve him well. But as a lot of guys here say, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. I think he will do well, thanks for asking. Wish him luck.
theblackknight
03-17-10, 22:53
hhahahah! He is typical , you have no idea. He'll be fine.
It's cheaper and quicker to tell someone they're the best than make them the best, or teach them to yearn for constant skill improvement.
Err... I mean, everybody gets a Gold Star, everybody is special.
Bulldog7972
03-17-10, 23:21
Were they bald and wearing Oakleys?
Cascades236
03-18-10, 01:11
Sounds like a major case of "show off" for the citizen. That said, I don't know of any teams that require firearms proficiency outside of putting rounds on target and use to make the team. If their isht don't work they go to the armorers.
There is one bloke that doesn't like to use his sights. (Although, somehow he seems to usually shoot pretty well. When he uses them). We occasionally train with the MP5 so one day we are simulating room entries. He goes in with the MP5 stock collapsed, held a waist height and does a Schwarzenneger rock-and-roll 15 round burst on a target. He didn't think it was funny as he originally did when we started doing pushups.
And this person is still on the team (any team) why...?
Were they bald and wearing Oakleys?
Ha!
Im a POG, and I think POGs are actually worse off then grunts about this, even considering the "grunt mindset."
Yes, you are. On so many levels... :p
If someone asks me my opinion, I am happy to give it if I think I have some relevant info. I generally do not offer it up out of the blue, though.
If I see or hear bizarre stuff, I just keep quiet. Many times I just leave.
There is a certain subspecies of range-dwelling human that has uncontrollable urges to provide unsolicited advice and commentary on just about any firearm, technique, accessory, etc. Sometimes right, often wrong, never in doubt.
They sit there with the other various subspecies, like the old guy with the bolt gun, handloads, and chronograph who just sits there for hours and never says a word to anyone as he does his thing.
I decided a while back that, some day, I'm going to create a book with cartoon pictures like those Matt Groening did for the "Bongo" cartoons, only it's going to be caricatures and descriptions of all the stereotypical people you see or meet at gun shows, the range, and training classes.
Jay Cunningham
03-18-10, 10:56
There is a certain subspecies of range-dwelling human that has uncontrollable urges to provide unsolicited advice and commentary on just about any firearm, technique, accessory, etc. Sometimes right, often wrong, never in doubt.
They sit there with the other various subspecies, like the old guy with the bolt gun, handloads, and chronograph who just sits there for hours and never says a word to anyone as he does his thing.
I decided a while back that, some day, I'm going to create a book with cartoon pictures like those Matt Groening did for the "Bongo" cartoons, only it's going to be caricatures and descriptions of all the stereotypical people you see or meet at gun shows, the range, and training classes.
We should start a whole separate thread about this.
:cool:
There is a certain subspecies of range-dwelling human that has uncontrollable urges to provide unsolicited advice and commentary on just about any firearm, technique, accessory, etc. Sometimes right, often wrong, never in doubt.
They sit there with the other various subspecies, like the old guy with the bolt gun, handloads, and chronograph who just sits there for hours and never says a word to anyone as he does his thing.
I decided a while back that, some day, I'm going to create a book with cartoon pictures like those Matt Groening did for the "Bongo" cartoons, only it's going to be caricatures and descriptions of all the stereotypical people you see or meet at gun shows, the range, and training classes.
We should start a whole separate thread about this.
:cool:
I heard there is an entire website based on this... ;););)
decodeddiesel
03-18-10, 11:44
This is exactly why I just keep to myself and don't say a damn thing to anyone else at the range. Furthermore, if I am approached by someone at the range I will do everything in my power to quickly yet politely end the conversation. My time is very valuable and I just don't have the ability to waste the resource on trying to educate someone, or listen to someone's verbal diarrhea.
People are going to do what they're going to do, and believe what they're going to believe. I am finding that about 95% of the time most people are just full of shit and not worth the effort.
This is exactly why I just keep to myself and don't say a damn thing to anyone else at the range. Furthermore, if I am approached by someone at the range I will do everything in my power to quickly yet politely end the conversation. My time is very valuable and I just don't have the ability to waste the resource on trying to educate someone, or listen to someone's verbal diarrhea.
I don't mind having a friendly chat with somebody regarding what I'm shooting/doing, the optic I'm using, etc. so long as it's not a pretext for that person to tell me how mine sucks and I ought to use this or that, and how his dad has a [insert shitty brand here] and it never "jams," and so on.
The trick is figuring out, as early on as possible, whether you're dealing with one of "those" people.
trunkmonkey
03-18-10, 12:19
Not a surprising story. In my experience some of the worst shooters are LEO's.
It's funny how most automatically think every cop is a gun guy and knows what he is talking about, so far from the truth.
decodeddiesel
03-18-10, 12:24
The trick is figuring out, as early on as possible, whether you're dealing with one of "those" people.
I lack this skill, therefore I have adopted a policy of equal opportunity misanthropy.
rifleman2000
03-18-10, 13:48
This is exactly why I just keep to myself and don't say a damn thing to anyone else at the range. Furthermore, if I am approached by someone at the range I will do everything in my power to quickly yet politely end the conversation. My time is very valuable and I just don't have the ability to waste the resource on trying to educate someone, or listen to someone's verbal diarrhea.
People are going to do what they're going to do, and believe what they're going to believe. I am finding that about 95% of the time most people are just full of shit and not worth the effort.
I have met some very nice people at ranges plenty of times. I have not been bothered by "those" people except on rare occasions. I consider it a plus, and usually end up shooting other people's guns, and them shooting mine.
I have met some very nice people at ranges plenty of times. I have not been bothered by "those" people except on rare occasions. I consider it a plus, and usually end up shooting other people's guns, and them shooting mine.
Most of my poor habits were gained at the local ranges around here, some of which were taught to me by people who should have known better.
rifleman2000
03-18-10, 14:24
Most of my poor habits were gained at the local ranges around here, some of which were taught to me by people who should have known better.
You should have known better. Blame yourself if you are willing to take unsolicited advice.
I wish I cold find a picture of the Tazewell Co, VA Tac Team and their Carbon 15 entry 'pistols'.
Unfortunately, they pulled it off the county website when they found out they were being made extreme sport of on the internet.
This one?
I have this movie ..............
:p
Heavy Metal
03-18-10, 17:05
This one?
Yep, thanks!
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4493&d=1268946497
Everybody who hasn't seen that pic needs to click on Subzero's link. It is so many flavors of F-ed up, Baskin Robbins couldn't handle the business.
A friend of mine who went thru the academy with one of those guys asked him why they bought those Piece O' Shits and his response:" They were so light and maneuverable!"
From past experiences I can tell you the term SWAT is use verry loosely from department to department. I will not disclose what agency I belong to but I will say that I've come across some SWAT officers that have inferior training to that of a regular patrol officer in my department.
Alpha Sierra
03-18-10, 17:34
This one?
Nice "tactical" vests from Cheaper Than Dirt.......:D
Because clicking links is so much work:
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4849&stc=1&d=1272200496
We should start a whole separate thread about this.
:cool:
Actually we did, well kinda:)
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31714
This one?
My first impression was that I could not belive a dept would actually use a POS like those; my second was that I am gald I was not one of the kneeling officers with that POS's muzzle pointed at the back of my skull.
Three quick range stories;
I was at the range a few years ago and a local SWAT cop was showing off his Armalite 50BMG by shooting a charged fire extinguisher which promptly flew 50ft high and 40yrds downrange. Luckly they set it at 200yrds.
Another range trip; the firing line was full so a group post high school "dudes" stood a the left end of the line, wearing black trench coats (no shit!) and set about bump firing an AK, peppering the line with their empties. They made no friends that day:rolleyes:
During my CCW class (nearly 20 years ago), a father and son duo firing six shot .38s could barely hit the B27 targets set at 7yrds and promptly set about bitching and complaining that it was because they had to fire factory loaded ammo and could not use their handloads. I felt safer that they were at least using factory ammo.
As a friend of mine likes to say, "you just can't fix stupid":cool:
RogerinTPA
03-18-10, 21:35
This is exactly why I just keep to myself and don't say a damn thing to anyone else at the range. Furthermore, if I am approached by someone at the range I will do everything in my power to quickly yet politely end the conversation. My time is very valuable and I just don't have the ability to waste the resource on trying to educate someone, or listen to someone's verbal diarrhea.
People are going to do what they're going to do, and believe what they're going to believe. I am finding that about 95% of the time most people are just full of shit and not worth the effort.
Absolutely. Most of my discussions are prior to or post range time, unless its a very hot female type inquiring....
Jay Cunningham
03-18-10, 22:39
Absolutely. Most of my discussions are prior to or post range time, unless its a very hot female type inquiring....
That is a different case altogether!! :p
Dirk Williams
03-18-10, 23:08
Laugh all you want, those lads are the ones that will be arriving to help if your jammed up. "that picture really is amusing". I can hear then running now, hut, hut, hut, hut, hut.
Sadly I had one of those Carbon 15 ar pistols until about 3 months ago, when you all laughed at me when I asked about it in the ar pistol section.
I lucked out and got 500.00 cash plus a new Remington 700 7mm mag for the gem. My lucky day id say.
D Williams
Absolutely. Most of my discussions are prior to or post range time, unless its a very hot female type inquiring....
At this point I offer my privat instructor services:D
Absolutely. Most of my discussions are prior to or post range time, unless its a very hot female type inquiring....
At this point I offer my private instructor services:D
Wife looking over shoulder:eek:
I decided a while back that, some day, I'm going to create a book with cartoon pictures like those Matt Groening did for the "Bongo" cartoons, only it's going to be caricatures and descriptions of all the stereotypical people you see or meet at gun shows, the range, and training classes.
Please do this.
The old guy with handloads, crono, etc. is classic. Also need a guy who asks other people if they shot his target across lanes after he misses.
This post reminds me of the time I was at an indoor range and the booth next to me had a loud boom coming from it, intrigued I walked out of my booth and looked at the booth next to me, it was a guy shooting an AR pistol.
So he starts a conversation, so I go ahead and ask, does he plan to make it an sbr? He quickly barks back it's for ccw... :D
I can think of a few people I've met at a range who probably enjoy shooting more after I offered help than before.
-B
I'm part of a part-time team and I can tell you that we need more shooting and training time. We are called upon to handle equally dangerous situations as those confronted by full-time teams. We have to make due and I try to stay focused and fit because I know we lack training and shooting time. You have to remember that part-time teams are taking a big hit in our budgets due to the current economic environment. That equates into less shooting time. But, no excuses, we have a responsibility to the public and they turn to us do handle those situations. And it's bullshit when S.W.A.T. teams feel they are all high and mighty, we call those Operators prima-donnas. There are alot of them and it shames me to see fat Operators at shooting ranges giving bullshit advice and trying to awe the civies. If your a fat S.W.A.T Operator, shame on you.
Bulldog7972
04-22-10, 08:08
The only "operator" that I know used to answer the telephones.
Littlelebowski
04-22-10, 08:21
Sadly, many SWAT teams are being used to serve warrants since many of the small towns that have them don't really need them. All part of the militarization of our police as detailed here (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476).
The only "operator" that I know used to answer the telephones.
If you read Eric Haney's book, you'll see where the term originated.
Bob
Bulldog7972
04-22-10, 09:23
If you read Eric Haney's book, you'll see where the term originated.
Bob
I don't have the book. Can you tell me in a nutshell what he said?
Dirk Williams
04-22-10, 11:38
Interesting, regarding para military type shit and SWAT there's an article in my hometown rag today about my old agency blowing/shooting a couple of doors off of a house a few months ago. " Hearld and New's, Klamath Falls Oregon.
Things are changing and then this shit happens. Jesse Withers the owner of the house called me a couple of months ago and asked for help/advice regarding KFPD blowing/shooting the doors off his house.
His position was basic and reasonable in my mind. He simply wanted to be paid for the damage to his rental property. KFPD said so sorry we won't pay you for the damage caused to the residence because we had a warrant signed by a judge. BFD.
There are two sides to this story, my focus is that it wasn't Jesse's fault that the SWAT team had to blow the doors off of the house, why should he had to take the lose in terms of money, this is how he makes his living.
The NEW MATRIX. Matrix is a set of standards that you factor regarding Who, What ,Where,When, Why, How. Criminal history, Weapons availability, and a few other things are factored in.
Based on the total number scored , you determine the level of threat and the level of response. I think the system has merit, BUT how much force to use on entry is always a gamble.
In this application the officers shot the door off of the hinges using breaching rounds. Jesse told me that several o-2 tanks were in line with the doors shot and suseptable to explosion .
Jesse also shared pictures of the interior of the residence as he entered his rental property about an hour after the event. Looks to me like many many rounds were fired to clear the hinges and door handle. " A door knocker was more then likely the proper tool for the job".
Not second guessing, I wasn't there". However I have been in this house on multiple other occassions in the past 20 years.
The place is a shit hole on a good day, I cringed at the door getting shot off and the o-2 tanks position behind the door and the possibility of an explosion hurting the team "By the way nobody was home". Long story short, the PD should be paying the damage.
This SWAT team is a good dedicated team who train often. The team has two solid leaders in JH and JD both have been in the game for many many years.
There is a cost to doing business, in this application stepping up to the plate and fixing what you broke is the right thing to do, not hiding behind some lame excuse by some lame LT/Chief or other administrator.
Jesse Withers is the victim here, he bears none of the responsibility for his renters, or the PD's actions why should he not be compensated for his loss.
During my career Ive gone thru the door many many times with some big boys. Each was solid and reasonable. Personally I was very comfortable with these guys cuz I knew I could trust them with my life, and knew they would do the right thing, at the right time.
FAT SWAT/PART TIME SWAT. When you knuckle heads end up in court, I don't think the fat swat cop is going to be an issue, I think the focus will be on a poorly trained poorly managed team, with part time swat syndrome.
Like the header says Your either Swat, OR Your not.
Anyway check out the news paper article it's food for thought.
D Williams
Sadly, many SWAT teams are being used to serve warrants since many of the small towns that have them don't really need them. All part of the militarization of our police as detailed here (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476).
:rolleyes:
Littlelebowski
04-24-10, 23:16
:rolleyes:
Shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss it further and hopefully dispute the facts with verifiable, citable data points. I'll assume you read the whitepaper.
[QUOTE=Littlelebowski;636415]Shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss it further and hopefully dispute the facts with verifiable, citable data points. I'll assume you read the whitepaper.[/QUOTE
Nevermind. You are free to think as you wish.
Littlelebowski
04-25-10, 00:42
Shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss it further and hopefully dispute the facts with verifiable, citable data points. I'll assume you read the whitepaper.
Nevermind. You are free to think as you wish.
As are you. Hit me up if you want reasoned discussion and do read the study I linked to. It's not fictional and it does go in depth.
Shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss it further and hopefully dispute the facts with verifiable, citable data points. I'll assume you read the whitepaper.
I agree with you Little.
Using SWAT for drug warrants is a touchy subject. The warrant crafting, including using reliable or unreliable informants, is up to the drug unit, who may or may not be actually executing the tactical side of the warrant. In many locales, including here, they pass the execution off to SWAT, and come in after the scene's secure.
Read a "no-knock" warrant; the verbiage is formulaic, but its not easily obtained. You see, the Judge has to approve the warrant first, then determine if the no-knock is necessary. As an added benefit, the checks and balance system comes into play. Remember, judges aren't employees or paid assets of the police. They're not appointed by the police.
These days, there's a big shift in how a lot of department SWAT teams execute drug and arrest warrants. In my agency, we used to literally bumrush the target house and we'd sometimes walk away with a couple baggies and a scale. Lots of people, myself included, had issues with this, and rightfully so.
Without going into specifics, our tactics had shifted, with an interest in maintaining the safety of the suspect, uninvolved residents, citizens, and officers. We're also adamant that the drug unit's case is not dependent on us finding drugs on that search warrant; IE, there's less need for the entry team to try to race through the house, which could elevate the force we need to use, and the force that the mopes might try to use on us. Put another way, we prefer to execute an arrest warrant on a subject on whom the case has already been made. This changes our tactics for the better.
Do I see a "paramilitarization" of American policing? Yes I do, but I see it as a response to the needs of society, and within the constraints of our judicial system.
Do I like that we've come this far? No, but it is what it is.
Frankly, I thought the first few pages of the Cato article belonged here:http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com
balaclavas and rappelling gear? Oh horrors, say it ain't so.
The implications of the 1033 program are also misunderstood by the author, are are the implications of large jurisdictions not having a tactical response capability.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.