Gore-Tex Parka [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

EzGoingKev

07-05-10, 19:50

I don't seem to find them.

I am looking for a Gen 1 ECWS in solid tan/coyote color, not desert camo/acu/marpat.

The majority of the things I see have all kinds of zippered pockets on the chest and arms and that is not what I am looking for.

The closest thing I have found was a North Face jacket that Bass Pro had but it was so paper thin it looked like it would come apart if I farted. Also, it did not have the under arm ventilation feature.

This here (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp;jsessionid=NEBBZ1X2IT1DPLAQBBISCN3MCAEFEIWE?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=&id=0026939922398a&navCount=0&podId=0026939&parentId=&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IA&rid=&parentType=&indexId=&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=cabelas%20pac-lite&cm_ite=netcon&rid=2146251080&hasJS=true&_requestid=106468) looks like what I am looking for but it is not offered in tan/coyote and I have no idea how durable it is. The closest Cabela's is about 2 hours away.

kmrtnsn

07-05-10, 21:10

The same place I told you they were at on March 19th.

http://www.majorsurplus.com/Next-Generation-ECW-Breathable-Moisture-Repellant-Parka-P14976C2036.aspx

EzGoingKev

07-05-10, 21:41

The same place I told you they were at on March 19th.

http://www.majorsurplus.com/Next-Generation-ECW-Breathable-Moisture-Repellant-Parka-P14976C2036.aspx

I saw that and it is what I am looking for IF it is gore tex. All it says is that it is "moisture repellant(sic)". I emailed them to find out what it is made of.

Have you ever dealt with Major Surplus and is so, how are they?

kmrtnsn

07-05-10, 21:52

Gor-tex is a licensed trademark of DuPont, you won't always see it described as such if a competing treatment process was used.

Grandprairie

07-05-10, 22:47

Gor-tex is a licensed trademark of DuPont, you won't always see it described as such if a competing treatment process was used.

Gore-Tex is not a treatment. It's a waterproof and breathable membrane. The main patent has expired so there are competing products now.

kmrtnsn

07-05-10, 22:49

Thanks GP!

Armati

07-06-10, 09:35

20 years ago Brigade Quartermaster sold these in a variety of colors. As I recall they did do them in a khaki color. Best bet is to continue to check ebay from time to time.

The NexGen on the Major Surplus site seems like the generic equivalent of the brand name Goretex ECWCS. I am pretty sure the fabric patterns are still held by the same company and distributors just contract with the manufacturer and brand them under a house band.

That parka is still a pretty solid piece of kit. It is a bit heavy by current standards but it is well built and great for cold-dry or cold-wet weather. I still have my woodland and desert pattern that I wear in the motorpool if I don't want to mess up my nice PCU stuff.

For the money you really can't go wrong. However, if you are willing to pay a premium, there are even better jackets from Arc'teryx and Patagonia that are seeing hard military use in Afghanistan. Most of the big names in outdoor gear are making things in suitably military colors.

QuietShootr

07-06-10, 09:43

Most of the "surplus" jackets that resemble the real Gore-Tex ECWCS parka are not in fact Gore-Tex, they're just nylon with some plasticized coating on it. They don't perform like a GI Gore-Tex jacket, they are more like a plain waterproof nylon shell. That means you get hot, sweaty, and cold when you stop moving.

If you want Gore-Tex, you have to look for something made with it. As stated above, it's not a 'treatment', it's a specific kind of material, and as such it will be specifically labeled. "gortex" is a soldier bastardization of the trademark, and when used in advertising usually means "Cheap-ass Chinese copy of USGI jacket that looks like a real ECWCS parka but is just cheap nylon".

There are no real USGI ECWCS parkas made in Coyote. ECWCS came in woodland, 3-color desert, and a very rare 6-color desert version, and now ACU.

ETA: http://www.majorsurplus.com/Next-Generation-ECW-Breathable-Moisture-Repellant-Parka-P14976C2036.aspx this is a good example of what I'm talking about. That's not Gore-Tex, it's just plasticized nylon.

Explanation of what Gore-Tex is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore-Tex

Armati

07-06-10, 12:28

Do you know what ever happened to the old Brigade Quartermaster stuff?

Years ago organizations before the SPEAR program guys would just buy Brigade stuff. Brigade used legit Gore-Tex.

EzGoingKev

07-06-10, 16:39

For the money you really can't go wrong. However, if you are willing to pay a premium, there are even better jackets from Arc'teryx and Patagonia that are seeing hard military use in Afghanistan. Most of the big names in outdoor gear are making things in suitably military colors.
I know there is some really nice stuff out there now, the problem is that they are either not "plain" enough for me or a just flimsy as paper.

John Felushko

07-09-10, 12:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armati View Post
For the money you really can't go wrong. However, if you are willing to pay a premium, there are even better jackets from Arc'teryx and Patagonia that are seeing hard military use in Afghanistan. Most of the big names in outdoor gear are making things in suitably military colors.

I know there is some really nice stuff out there now, the problem is that they are either not "plain" enough for me or a just flimsy as paper.

Don't let the weights fools you. SOF unit buyers tell me that on a dollars per day of wear basis that very high end commercial-off-the-shelf product is significantly cheaper (read longer lasting) than issued kit. Also, good modern kit breaths better, weighs less, packs smaller, lasts longer and has better ergonomics that even the best GI/surplus stuff. If you are a serious user this translates into greater comfort, fewer injuries, better personal performance and a larger safety margin. If it's just for around town, save your money, buy GI.

As always, it depends on your needs.

EzGoingKev

07-09-10, 20:49

Don't let the weights fools you.

I know that the product has evolved so that it doesn't need to be as heavy as in the past. My comment was directed at the one example I did find that met my criteria and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that it was made by North Face.

I know they make some quality stuff, but around here it is mostly worn by yuppie douche bags that are solely interested in making sure they are wear the right brand more than anything else.

EzGoingKev

07-20-10, 18:14

Design-wise it looks like I have a winner.

Cabela's PacLite Gore-Tex Parka (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp;jsessionid=Y3PRMGYYZB1AVLAQBBISCOVMCAEFEIWE?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=&id=0026939922398a&navCount=0&podId=0026939&parentId=&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IA&rid=&parentType=&indexId=&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=cabelas%20pac-lite&cm_ite=netcon&rid=2146251080&hasJS=true&_requestid=90872)

The nearest Cabela's is about an 1.5 hours away in CT so I might cruise down there this weekend to check it out.

mkmckinley

09-02-10, 22:55

FWIW I've never been impressed with the water resistance capability of the old ECWS that I've been issued; better than nothing but not great. It tends to get soaked through in an hour or so. I don't know if the gore-tex gets worn out or what. Check out steepandcheap.com periodically and you can find current gen stuff for pretty cheap, usually about half off, and often in subdued brown or olive type colors.

ABN

09-03-10, 02:58

There are no real USGI ECWCS parkas made in Coyote. ECWCS came in woodland, 3-color desert, and a very rare 6-color desert version, and now ACU.

They also made an OD ECWCS, parka and trousers. They were CIF issue 1/509 @ Fort Polk JRTC, don't know where else. OPFOR wore OD uniforms, including the old OD wet weather gear & OD 107's. Time frame 2000-2001.

I learned quickly, that the goretex had limitations in the hard rain. As a general rule of thumb, if it was raining I'd wear wet weather gear, snow the goretex with undergarment.

bkb0000

09-03-10, 03:18

Von Rheydt

09-03-10, 15:43

Do you really, really want goretex? Or, would something more Gucci, practical and covetted be just as good?

Ever heard of ventile? Its what was used before goretex.........in fact it still is used by polar explorers and many, many, of the the worlds Tier 1's. A bit like goretex there are copies of ventile, one company that is much favoured by UK Forces makes an SAS SMOCK out of a ventile equivelant. The smock is highly regarded and bought as a private purchse item by many people.

Here you go have a read about Ventile:

http://www.ventile.co.uk/

Here is SASSKIT, they are happy to export anywhere in the world. They are currently out of stock on the item but will soon have a re-supply of the material and start making to order again.

http://www.sasskit.co.uk/productlist.php?category=Clothing

Google with ventile / ventile smock / ventile clothing.

Mo_Zam_Beek

09-03-10, 16:56

I have one of the ECWS - it blows if it is truly raining.

Much better stuff?

Filson
Arcteryx
Mountain Hardware

Good luck

tb-av

09-03-10, 19:01

Eddie Bauer used to have what you are describing. I've had one for years. Ripstop Goretex shell. zipper underarms. interior elastic waistband. Two diagonal front zipper slat pockets. A heavy fleece liner that snaps in/out. Zipper hood.

Might want to check them. It was what they called their EBTEK line.

Gutshot John

09-04-10, 08:35

I know they make some quality stuff, but around here it is mostly worn by yuppie douche bags that are solely interested in making sure they are wear the right brand more than anything else.

Who cares what yuppie douchebags wear? Northface is one of the best on the market. There is no more virtue in NOT wearing a brand then in wearing it. Why let them make the choice for you? If it doesn't meet your needs than all well and good but it's a parka not a fashion statement.

My NF has gotten heavy use for 7 winters and still looks almost new. It holds up to heavy rain and snow, it breathes and is the most comfortable parka I've ever worn.

EzGoingKev

09-04-10, 12:56

Who cares what yuppie douchebags wear? Northface is one of the best on the market. There is no more virtue in NOT wearing a brand then in wearing it. Why let them make the choice for you? If it doesn't meet your needs than all well and good but it's a parka not a fashion statement.

My NF has gotten heavy use for 7 winters and still looks almost new. It holds up to heavy rain and snow, it breathes and is the most comfortable parka I've ever worn.

I ended up buying this (http://www.thenorthface.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=162447&storeId=207&catalogId=10201&langId=-1&from=subCat&parent_category_rn=11702&variationId=21L).

It has the outer shell and a removable fleece type thing that you can wear separately.

Gutshot John

09-04-10, 16:49

I ended up buying this (http://www.thenorthface.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=162447&storeId=207&catalogId=10201&langId=-1&from=subCat&parent_category_rn=11702&variationId=21L).

It has the outer shell and a removable fleece type thing that you can wear separately.

Slayin bodies...good to go! ;)

BattleDrill3

09-05-10, 00:54

A little late on the post since you've already bought the jacket, but some warnings and info for anyone who followed the thread.

Gore-tex material is a proprietary fabric owned by W.L. Gore. They extensively test all end-products using the fabric, and have the right to kill the production of any product that doesn't pass. After the release of Gen-1 Gore-tex parkas, they were retested and found by W. L. Gore not to be completely waterproof, and were removed from production.

The material has over 2 billion holes per square inch; scientifically proven to be too small to let liquid in, but large enough to let water vapor (i.e. sweat) out. Unfortunately, Gore-tex by itself is not strong enough to make jackets or any other outerwear; it has to be bonded to layers of fabric for strength. That was where the Gen-1 parkas were ineffective. It is literally impossible for water to permeate Gore-tex if properly affixed to fabric, and kept clean. Further, DO NOT SCOTCH-GARD Gore-tex; it will lose its breathability. Use either Granger's XT Proofer, or McNett Revivex Spray-On Water Repellent. These are specifically formulated to treat Gore-tex; when you buy a Gore-tex product, it will have a tag on it telling you specifically to use one of those two water repellents. And finally, you have to treat Gore-tex repeatedly with such a product, called DWR (durable water repellent) every year or six months or it will lose its effectiveness.

Also (and if I start a firestorm here, get over it), The North Face DOES NOT make some of the best outerwear. They were bought by Vanity Fair magazine, and are focused more on "lifestyle" products. (Casual shit.) That said, Arcteryx makes by far the best Gore-tex outerwear in the world. There's a reason why the the Alpha jacket costs $600 dollars, and why the LEAF line is insanely popular. All waterproof zippers; all seams are sewn, folded over the stitches to prevent a thread getting caught on something, and then glued; drawstrings to tighten the jackets inside the pockets so you never have to expose your hands to the cold; a removable device to keep the bottom of the jackets from riding up when using a climbing harness; I could go on all day. They are the most solidly built jackets that exist and are as lightweight and packable.

(Admittedly, the LEAF line is so popular because it's what all the "cool kids" wear these days, but in all actuality, the cool kids that are allowed to wear them are in units or organizations that give it to them for free.) Marmot and Berghaus are also world class. For just walking around, TNF is fine; for serious persuits, look elsewhere.

Von Rheydt

09-05-10, 08:31

BD3 does not speak with forked tongue.

Northface is nice for some applications, I have one of their down jackets and think it is great. My 13 year old daughter has one also, she has it because along with UGG boots and Armani jeans it makes a fashion statement.

That said NF do have a couple of high end products in the down jacket range.

I had the goretex permeability demo'ed to me by their military rep several times in the UK. We liked his demo's because we always used to get free samples along with goretex repair kits.........a bit like a collection of self adhesive tyre repair patches but goretex and in camo. Technically if you know the plumbers tape, the white PTFE stuff, well goretex is basically similar to sheets of that.

Berghaus, not quite top of the heap for my own personal selection if I had to replace stuff, I had the pleasure of visiting the Bergahus and Karrimor factories in UK. If I were you and wanted to go for top end gear I would look at stuff produced by RAB, it is made for the job. When I lived in UK I used to have wish lists from friends of mine in Germany that are military Alpine qualified (and then some) they always wanted RAB.

http://www.rab.uk.com/ (If it helps make it cooler, RAB make special order stuff for UKSF)

Depends what you want a smock for I like Ventile for some trips to the woods and goretex is fine when I am in company and I know there is going to be a noise. But then, I'm out in the Ulu because I enjoy it.

EzGoingKev

09-05-10, 10:22

I looked at the Arc'teryx stuff a week a two ago and I did not see what I was looking for. That said I just went on there now and it looks like they have rolled out their 2010 Fall/Winter lineup and there are some really nice jackets there.

For what I am getting the NF jacket for I really cannot complain though.

bkb0000

09-05-10, 10:32

Further, DO NOT SCOTCH-GARD Gore-tex; it will lose its breathability.

this is why most guys have problems.. we scotchguarded EVERYTHING in the army. perfect example of guys doin stupid shit out of ignorance, then crying when their equip doesn't work right. my first ECW leaked like a mother ****er.. and i can remember sitting there cold and damp and thinking about my gortex "failing" on me, and finally figured out that the thing that makes gortex as good as it is is its breathability, which we'd immediately and thoroughly ruined by hanging them all up and dousing with scotchguard.

all the moisture from you and the wet ass air condenses on the underside of the cold gortex.. your body temp is hot and the gortex is cold, so of course it attracts moisture. just like the rain suits we all claimed "leaked" right out of the bag- they don't leak, they're just made of rubber and condense moisture.

Gutshot John

09-05-10, 10:50

While I'm sure there are different price points of NF (same with Arc'teryx) the "Summit" series is indeed in the top tier. Is it the equivalent of a $600 Arcteryx? Maybe not but it's perfectly adequate for 99.99% of people on this forum and certainly the OP, it is also less expensive and beats the ECWS shit by a whole heap.

I've taken my NF on climbs, hikes, hunting. It's gone subzero, worked in blizzards, I've taken spills skiing, scraped it over rocks and stood outside in freezing rain. It's broken in but is otherwise in great shape.

It's taken everything I can throw at it and after 7 years is going strong. If it disintegrated tomorrow I would have gotten a lot more than my money's worth out of it.

If you're a hardcore mountaineer whose life depends on your gear YMMV, but that many mountaineers do indeed use it (probably with more frequency than Arcteryx) is more than indicative of pretty significant quality.

PS. Vanity Fair Magazine does NOT own North Face. Google it.

BattleDrill3

09-05-10, 12:57

Not sure why, but my computer just posted a double of my response. It's a piece of shit, and I need a new one. I deleted it and just put these few sentences in.

BattleDrill3

09-05-10, 12:58

You are correct, Gutshot; I spoke slightly incorrectly. VF Corporation, formerly known as Vanity Fair, owns North Face. The magazine itself doesn't own the company, but they are cut from the same cloth.

Vanity Fair bought TNF in 2000. Here is a quote from a Forbes Magazine article about North Face (now known also as VF Outdoor) and Vanity Fair itself, the largest apparel company in the world. The name McDonald in the quote refers to Mackey McDonald, then CEO. Link follows.

"So for six years McDonald has been going shopping, buying up one brand after another that fit VF's mainstream, all-American image. In 2000 he bought the North Face, the outdoor-gear company turned coatmaker."

http://www.forbes.com/global/2006/0724/030.html

TNF's Summit Series is their flagship. I own a few pieces from the line myself. It's fairly functional, but more importantly, cheaper than Arc'Teryx, or Mountain Hardwear. I wasn't saying that TNF doesn't make products that work. I'm saying that they lack the features and craftsmanship that balance durability and low weight, with no concern for price, that separates 'very decent' from 'the best.' The double zipper (to zip in fleece jackets directly to the Gore-Tex), for example, is a unnecessary feature that does nothing but add weight. This feature is well sought-after in the consumer market, but not by industry professionals. Another example: there is nylon liner inside most Summit series jackets that not only adds more weight, absorbs moisture, stays cold, takes forever to dry (compared to the Gore-tex), and reduces breathability. Again, details. There is a reason that the aforementioned Alpha jackets wholesales for over $300. Yes, there is a significant markup for retail, but the materials and work that goes into that jacket are costly.

But yes, for 99% of what it's used for, TNF jackets will hold up. TNF gear has made the trip the summit of Everest, if only with their (very well compensated) climbing team for the sole purpose of establishing street cred. Make your way to Mt. Everest (I was there a little over a year ago), and you will see a distinct difference in clothing worn by basecamp tourist trekkers and the alpinists making the journey to the summit; a lot of North Face for the former, and none for the latter. There is no question in the outdoor or combat arms community that TNF's packs, jackets, and footwear are second rate. It is very well known.

I'm not here to argue with random people (or advertise for Arc'teryx, despite what it might seem), just utilizing this very useful site to educate some people who might make the same mistakes I have. In this case, thinking that simply because the brand is popular, it must be the best. Unfortunately, I was living in Alaska at the time, just getting into mountaineering, and paid dearly for the assumption.

Gutshot John

09-05-10, 20:41

http://vfc.com/

Gutshot John

09-05-10, 20:57

As I said if your needs are to summit Everest and your gear selection is going to be a matter of life and death than your YMMV. In that case I probably wouldn't settle for NF either but then I don't know that mountaineering gear really lends itself to daily usage either. I certainly wouldn't take a sleeping bag used on Everest on your average camping trip.

That said I would bet that the numbers that have attempted to summit Everest (in all of history) are a fraction of the members of this board so I'm not sure it's an appropriate metric.

If the comparison is to Arcteryx I can see why you might consider NF to be "second rate." If that's the view of combat arms community...than the actual stuff issued by the military (ECWS) is third or fourth rate.

Arc'teryx is a great company, so is Noveske, but it doesn't mean that anything else is second rate any more than having BCM means you don't have a damn fine rifle.

BattleDrill3

09-06-10, 19:12

Gutshot-I suppose I was a bit unprofessional there. My apologies. My concerns were simply that people would confront the same issues I have in the past. Not sure how things got blown so out of proportion. We did actually agree on the major points:

-Gen 1 ECWCS weren't reliable; please, no one out there waste your money.
-The North Face does make some quality products, and particularly for the price point and normal use, it's worthwhile.

'Nuff said. Again, I apologize for my temporary lack of professionalism, Gutshot John. There is simply no place for that.

Be safe.

Gutshot John

09-08-10, 08:11

We're having a discussion and we ultimately came to similar conclusions.

In no way were you unprofessional or even impolite.

You certainly don't owe me an apology.

Agile53

09-08-10, 11:06

Damn BD3 & GJ, it is so f'ing refreshing to see two adults on the 'net agree to disagree, still reach the same conclusions, treat each other w/ civility & act professionaly, kudos to you BOTH.

EzGoingKev

11-12-10, 05:47

I was at REI last night looking at boots and saw they sell Arc'teryx. Some really nice stuff.

I checked out their hard shells, specifically the Stingray jacket. I have to say it makes my North Face jacket seem like a Walmart special and by no means is my North Face jacket junk. I do have to add that the Stingray cost 3x as much as my North Face jacket.

I have been wearing the jacket for about a month now. Overall it is a pretty good piece of gear. In some ways I like how the fleece liner zips into it and in some ways I don't.

The major thing I do not like about it is that it does not have zippered vents under the arms for when you get hot. It thought the zippers on the front way over to the sides were but they are pockets. I walk for about 20 minutes at a pretty brisk pace during my breaks at work and find I get hot about 3/4 through the walk and wish I had the under arm vents. Going forward I will definitely make sure the venting is there on any future purchases.

Gutshot John

11-12-10, 10:43

EzGoingKev

11-12-10, 17:45

It is worth nothing (despite being somewhat counter-intuitive) that overheating/overexertion is as dangerous in a cold-weather scenario as hypothermia.
Dehydration is a HUGE thing in the cold because a lot of people cut their water intake because they a) don't think they need as much water; and b) don't have the "thirst" in the cold.

Gutshot John

11-12-10, 17:51

Dehydration is a HUGE thing in the cold because a lot of people cut their water intake because they a) don't think they need as much water; and b) don't have the "thirst" in the cold.

It also has to do with getting all sweaty which wets your underlayers and then cools you off too rapidly.

When starting out/getting dressed up for the day you want to be a little bit cold.

EzGoingKev

11-12-10, 17:58

It also has to do with getting all sweaty which wets your underlayers and then cools you off too rapidly.

When starting out/getting dressed up for the day you want to be a little bit cold.
You want to try to stay a bit cold the entire time so that you do not get sweaty.

That is where the vents under the arm come in. To me they are key and I will not buy another jacket or fleece that does not have them.

bkb0000

11-12-10, 20:43

you're going to get sweaty either way- better to be layered up and wet than less layered up and wet.

also illustrates the importance of moisture wicking insulating underwear- smart wool, polypro- whatever.. anything that'll get the wet off your skin.

i've been in a few situations that started to get scary, in my time in the backcountry. get into ticker and/or tougher terrain than you were expecting, over-exerting yourself out of necessity.. get all soaking wet and tired to the point that you have to rest. now you're dehydrated, wet, too tired to keep warm- recipe for death. i've probably been closer to that than i'd like to think about.. but learned from my near-misses, and now i always make sure i'm over-dressed. wear your shell strapped to your pack, if weather permits and you can't stand to have it on- just make sure you have clothing on/with you to last anything the country might throw at you.

Gutshot John

11-12-10, 23:43

you're going to get sweaty either way- better to be layered up and wet than less layered up and wet.

Eventually you stop moving...then you get cold...then the wet starts pulling heat away from your body...then you get hypothermic. Ask me how I know. :ph34r: Outside of combat...there is nothing (and I do mean nothing) that sucks worse than being cold and wet.

You're going to sweat but overexertion can kill...especially if you don't have the proper layers. Just take your time, there are very few times when you have to overexert yourself out of necessity. If you do have to and feel yourself getting too hot, pull off a layer