View Full Version : Taking From Others W/O Permission
This thread is meant to be a philosophical discussion, nothing more.
It's a SHTF(extended) or it's TEOTWAWKI. Your family is slowly starving to death. Do you loot from non-occupied dwellings or businesses? I say yes.
Same scenario except everything has been looted from easy targets. All remaining food is in the hands of individuals and groups. Do you try and take food from others by force? If you answer yes, how would you feel if someone better trained, larger group, etc. decides to take your remaining food? As in, you can't prevent them? If you would take from someone by force, and someone did it to you, what would your attitude be? If it's ok for you to do it, isn't it ok for someone else?
You or a family member needs meds to survive. Do you loot the pharmacy? There would be other people that need the same meds. By you taking them, then you will have condemned people to die. Would you be ok with it if someone else did it before you? Would it be better to try and share the meds?(Logistics difficult). Possibly at least more people would have longer to put their families in a better position before they died.
Do you take medicine from others? If so then if someone took your medicine then turn about is fair play?
Hopefully we can have a productive discussion. I realize there are many, many variables but let's keep it civil and thought provoking.
pharmacy, yes...others, no. i wouldnt take meds someone else needed from them, but i do feel that places like Wal mart are gonna be first come first serve. i would only take the meds i need and some basic antibiotics. of course there is different levels of seriousness...temporary type situation, and then theres full on SHTF type that will change a persons ideals. a stockpile of various medications would be as good as gold if you could defend it. i guess i dont really worry about the food issue...im from Iowa, where your food comes from, as well as your food's food. i have as good of a shot feeding my family as anyone does, and maybe better.
The one thing that many other blogs and forums have said is "No, its not moral". I fully support this but I also ask this question many times which I believe you have brought up... "Is it stealing if the owners have abandoned it?" Just like cars on the side of the road go up for auction after so long because they are considered abandoned. The vehicle has value but the owner has left it and not returned for it.
Doorman
Sorry I have replied three times in a row but this situation is something I give more thought to then anything in regards to disaster planning, and so I have a lot to say.
I have thought along the same lines as you, and you are right, looting would result in other people not getting their meds, especially in a situation with a med like insulin that needs to be kept cool, has a very short shelf life, and most likely is only kept in small sellable supply at any pharmacy.
But there are a few realities that need to also be considered. The biggest is that if Katrina or the LA riots are proof of anything it is that humans can very quickly devolve into a "Might is Right" system of governance. The actual term for it is Mobeaucracy, a system of government that is dictated by mob mentality and that is commonly seen in riots, or directly after societal collapse. A pharmacy is a location that contains intoxicants. Intoxicants = Power. Pharmacies will be hit hard, and fast, and since the average idiot doesn't know what they are looking for, they are just going to grab shit and figure it out later. That insulin is going to either be kicked to the floor, spoil with a lack of power, or be heaped into a bag with everything else. Heart Medication? All that is is a pill that looks like every other pill, and will be heaped into a pile too.
Next we have the reality of a SHTF situation, and how without government humans are just another animal on the planet. Society exists for the benefit of it's contributers. Government is an organic concept that grows while groups of people's populations increase, and thus their needs. Government acts as a way to offer protection, infrastructure, ext. This also results in comfort, and a lack of humans having to rely on their own abilities to survive. The simple reality of a SHTF situation is that people will die, especially in a complete collapse. Lots of people.
Philosophically my fiance and I are well aware of the fact that she lives the life she does because of society, and its benefits. Her life expectancy will be greatly reduced without her medicine, and that is the cold hard truth of living in a natural world. The natural world exists because of the law of Survival of the Fittest (evolution), society alters that law. We can't however ignore it if society were to collapse. Therefore, accepting the fact that "fit" individuals will loot the pharmacy anyway and most likely do it for nefarious means, and the fact that the cold hard truth of someone that can't do is that they aren't "fit" enough to accept reality, I have no issue looting a pharmacy.
Now if someone was looting the pharmacy at the same time and just wanted medicine for their family, would I shoot them and take everything? Hell no. Would I take more then what my fiance needs to live as long as possible? Hell no. Would I take all the insulin? Probably not simply because I am not going to take something others may need only to have it go bad because I took to much of it.
This is my response to your similar question in the "What would you miss most" thread. I am going to delete it from that thread, and help move the conversation over here.
SeriousStudent
03-18-10, 19:49
Someone who is willing to take goods by force, should neither be surprised or upset when that force is resisted.
I'm not going to stop someone "harvesting" from an abandoned building or vehicle. But if it belongs to me, it would be best for all involved not to do so.
I just want to be left alone, to care for those I care about. I will use the items I paid for to do so.
And I will be just as polite to everyone as they are to me.
we can all say how we would like to react in an end of the world as we know it situation, but if it really happened and you were for whatever reason expelled from dwelling or have ran out of food you instantly become one of two things, a begger or a taker. if it comes down to my family members starving or me taking something that is not mine, well, the answer is a given. pride goes right out the window when your wife, child, or grandchild is whithering away.
Someone who is willing to take goods by force, should neither be surprised or upset when that force is resisted.
I'm not going to stop someone "harvesting" from an abandoned building or vehicle. But if it belongs to me, it would be best for all involved not to do so.
I just want to be left alone, to care for those I care about. I will use the items I paid for to do so.
And I will be just as polite to everyone as they are to me.
Absolutely, but I can tell you one thing: Nothing owned by a corporation, in my mind, is a legit item that belongs to any one "individual". If you question this, then well, sit back and question your relationship with the child hood hero Robin Hood, and also ponder what it would be like to watch your neighbor, your child, your friend, wither away and die while you hold tight to your morals.
You say "abandoned", I say "un-occupied by a human". If your definition of abandoned is that it is literally "out of business" before you would harvest goods from it then you're out of touch with reality. I wont be thinking a second about Walmart's current profit margin if my fiance is about to go into a diabetic coma, and whoa be anyone that gets in my way and tells me I'm breaking a "law", or being "immoral".
a few months ago there was a case where a young couple from the SF bay area was missing. they'd gone camping in a red Toyota 4x4 truck and hadn't been heard from. local SAR couldn't really hunt for them because they didn't know exactly where they were supposed to be. the family hired a private helicopter crew that eventually found them.
the truck had died trying to cross a swollen creek/river and they had broken into a cabin for shelter, warmth and food. they left a note with their contact info offering to pay for the damage and supplies.
in a case like that, i don't see a problem breaking into a home or cabin in the middle of nowhere to make use of whatever is there that you NEED. try to minimize damage, treat the place like it's your own. if it's a SHTF event, be aware that the actual owner may show up at some point and then you've got some 'splain' to do. if it's a personal SHTF like this scenario that's not as big a concern. if it's a major SHTF, it could be someone else trying to move in on the location even if it's not theirs.
its amazing the extents people go to when they abandon their principles. say what you want but if youre starving and there is food right in front of you....... youre gonna eat it. no one will starve to death over principle.
its amazing the extents people go to when they abandon their principles. say what you want but if youre starving and there is food right in front of you....... youre gonna eat it. no one will starve to death over principle.
This.
Nathan_Bell
03-19-10, 08:38
This got me thinking, as we are speaking of morals. How much can/will you help others?
I am the only one on my road with a standby generator, my neighbor has a PTO driven unit. So everyone in the area is going to be beating on our doors.
Lending electricity to keep someone from freezing todeath or to keep their food supply from going bad (short term) I have nothing against, but longer term.....
Eddiesketti
03-19-10, 10:25
Everyone for themselves. If this person can obtain meds in your family, then help them. If they cannot, well they probably are not going to survive. I am being realistic. If it was you, i would try to side with these people to offer your services in exchange for food or meds. If that doesn't work well you shouldn't have went to school to be something worthless like a guidance counselor.
People become desperate and do stupid things.
Always remember taking isn't wrong if the person is already dead, its called recycling.
a few months ago there was a case where a young couple from the SF bay area was missing. they'd gone camping in a red Toyota 4x4 truck and hadn't been heard from. local SAR couldn't really hunt for them because they didn't know exactly where they were supposed to be. the family hired a private helicopter crew that eventually found them.
the truck had died trying to cross a swollen creek/river and they had broken into a cabin for shelter, warmth and food. they left a note with their contact info offering to pay for the damage and supplies.
in a case like that, i don't see a problem breaking into a home or cabin in the middle of nowhere to make use of whatever is there that you NEED. try to minimize damage, treat the place like it's your own. if it's a SHTF event, be aware that the actual owner may show up at some point and then you've got some 'splain' to do. if it's a personal SHTF like this scenario that's not as big a concern. if it's a major SHTF, it could be someone else trying to move in on the location even if it's not theirs.
I don't know if it's like this anymore as I haven't spent much time back home (I'm sure it is still the same though), but in parts of Wyoming people leave their hunting cabins open and with minimal food for this very reason. My parents used one once in an emergency just long enough to warm up.
This got me thinking, as we are speaking of morals. How much can/will you help others?
I am the only one on my road with a standby generator, my neighbor has a PTO driven unit. So everyone in the area is going to be beating on our doors.
Lending electricity to keep someone from freezing todeath or to keep their food supply from going bad (short term) I have nothing against, but longer term.....
This might sound kind of hippy dippy, but I think you should not assume that you are the only person in your immediate community that will have something to contribute towards survival simply because you have guns, a generator, and a freezer full of deer meat.
There is strength in numbers, and so having a group of individuals larger then a small family unit may not be a bad thing. So to answer your question I would help immediate members of the community to the degree that they are able and willing to reciprocate with some for of similar help. For example, my fiance knows how to suture wounds shut, and other semi-advanced medical treatments. If I wasn't with her, and she was my neighbor, I would like having her around because of that knowledge. What if your neighbor is an electrician? Has woodsman experience? Knows how to garden?
I've been in situations where people that didn't mean anything to me, complete strangers got really hurt, and I didn't have to do anything in response, but I still couldn't turn my back. I hate seeing victims, and it's a something I can't just turn off. So I must say I probably would offer more help then most. Not to everyone though.
telecustom
03-19-10, 17:05
Morals and Standards are the product of society. If there is no longer a society in which to enforce those morals/standards, I don't see what the problem is with taking what you need/want. I will do what ever it takes and take what ever I can from who or what ever is available IOT survive. I know that sounds bad, but it is true. If there are people that I can help I will. But they must bring something to the table also. I think people get too caught up in personal or societal values.
Just remember, the winner rights history or in this case, is a around to tell their version of the story.
SeriousStudent
03-19-10, 18:00
Absolutely, but I can tell you one thing: Nothing owned by a corporation, in my mind, is a legit item that belongs to any one "individual". If you question this, then well, sit back and question your relationship with the child hood hero Robin Hood, and also ponder what it would be like to watch your neighbor, your child, your friend, wither away and die while you hold tight to your morals.
You say "abandoned", I say "un-occupied by a human". If your definition of abandoned is that it is literally "out of business" before you would harvest goods from it then you're out of touch with reality. I wont be thinking a second about Walmart's current profit margin if my fiance is about to go into a diabetic coma, and whoa be anyone that gets in my way and tells me I'm breaking a "law", or being "immoral".
Don't read things into my words that are not there. Don't pick a fight that does not exist.
I said "if it belongs to me". Did you hear me mention Wal-mart? :confused:
I said that people should be left alone with their possesions, and if you choose not to do so, then they will likely disagree.
Do whatever you wish. Honestly. I do not care one whit what you do.
If I had insulin, and had some to share, I would do so. Willingly, and for free. But I will be blunt, if you try and take something that belongs TO ME by force, it's not going to be an enjoyable day for you. That's not a threat, it's just asking to be left alone.
I do not give a fat rodent's backside about Wal-mart. In fact, I work for a competitor, so feel free to strip the place clean and burn it to the ground, if it makes you feel any better.
A civil discussion is a wonderful thing, by the way. I'm sorry to hear your lady has diabetes. So does my best friend. I'm not real eager to test things like shelf-life.
Relax and breath. You are seeing an arguement where none exists.
shadowalker
03-19-10, 18:20
If I were to take supplies I would leave contact information and provided society recovered make it right with whoever I took them from. During Katrina a lot of people did take things they needed to survive and left information.
If you can build alliances with neighbors / friends it will give you a great advantage.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. " - Edmund Burke.
in a shtf i wouldnt leave info. i would return after the crisis was over but who knows who is gonna get that info. some one just a little more desperate than you comes along and sees the info and thinks......... well might as well take it from them then. dont invite trouble its always willing to stop over.
Don't read things into my words that are not there. Don't pick a fight that does not exist.
I said "if it belongs to me". Did you hear me mention Wal-mart? :confused:
I said that people should be left alone with their possesions, and if you choose not to do so, then they will likely disagree.
Do whatever you wish. Honestly. I do not care one whit what you do.
If I had insulin, and had some to share, I would do so. Willingly, and for free. But I will be blunt, if you try and take something that belongs TO ME by force, it's not going to be an enjoyable day for you. That's not a threat, it's just asking to be left alone.
I do not give a fat rodent's backside about Wal-mart. In fact, I work for a competitor, so feel free to strip the place clean and burn it to the ground, if it makes you feel any better.
A civil discussion is a wonderful thing, by the way. I'm sorry to hear your lady has diabetes. So does my best friend. I'm not real eager to test things like shelf-life.
Relax and breath. You are seeing an arguement where none exists.
I wasn't trying to argue at all, and if I came off as such I apologize, I was simply trying to draw a line in the sand regarding my position on the individual and the corporate entity. It is something that has been blurred in this society, and needs to be addressed. It is also, and I mean this from past research, written into law that damage to property is considered "violence" as well as potentially an "act of terror" equal to that of something committed against a human. Watching media reports of recent natural disasters also shows pretty clearly that the big bad liberal media machine paints looters of a corporate location as individuals who are worthy of receiving nothing less then the States wrath. The hungry family is looked at as equal to the mob of unruly punks when it comes to societies interpretation of this entire topic.
You call me out on hating, I'll do the same, don't hate simply because I bring passion to this discussion. I wasn't attacking you, I was explaining my perspective in relationship to your response. Do I have a chip on my shoulder about the realities of my life in relationship to the greater world? Yea maybe I do, but the only reason I write about it is to help articulate the dramatic reality of the topic of this post.
I don't know if it's like this anymore as I haven't spent much time back home (I'm sure it is still the same though), but in parts of Wyoming people leave their hunting cabins open and with minimal food for this very reason. My parents used one once in an emergency just long enough to warm up.
yeah... i've heard the same, but never run into a place like that where i needed to check.
closer to civilization i have seen cabins in he hills while out on my MTB or motorcycle... places that looked like nobody was around. on occasion i've stopped to use a hose spigot for water, but didn't go poking around. these were in a location where i'd expect them to be locked... because they were not that far out from town, just "out of the way".
not easy to go sneaking anywhere wearing brightly colored lycra cycling clothing. and simple enough to explain my presence there looking for water. :cool:
i do know an old abandoned cabin at an old mining claim. several years ago i spent a bunch of time cleaning up the area, burning and hauling out trash, etc. it's in a nice location that's out of sight and that should be defensible, scouted out LP/OP sights but didn't get around to improving them.
Nathan_Bell
03-20-10, 07:47
This might sound kind of hippy dippy, but I think you should not assume that you are the only person in your immediate community that will have something to contribute towards survival simply because you have guns, a generator, and a freezer full of deer meat.
There is strength in numbers, and so having a group of individuals larger then a small family unit may not be a bad thing. So to answer your question I would help immediate members of the community to the degree that they are able and willing to reciprocate with some for of similar help. For example, my fiance knows how to suture wounds shut, and other semi-advanced medical treatments. If I wasn't with her, and she was my neighbor, I would like having her around because of that knowledge. What if your neighbor is an electrician? Has woodsman experience? Knows how to garden?
I've been in situations where people that didn't mean anything to me, complete strangers got really hurt, and I didn't have to do anything in response, but I still couldn't turn my back. I hate seeing victims, and it's a something I can't just turn off. So I must say I probably would offer more help then most. Not to everyone though.
That is why I brought it up in this thread of philosophical discussion. Some folks are worth keeping others not, when and how are we making that distinction?
Most of my neighbors are of the damned useful to have around group, I know this and realize that I will be muscle to keep the oldsters safe and basic mechanic, not a person in charge as I am not good enough at dynamic planning that one would need to keep a group of folks living for more than a few months without modern conveniences.
Some other folks have folks of dubious utility or destructive attitude for neighbors; what is the minimal skills to take someone in?
Guess I should have made my first post in this thread as more of a hypothetical, to get folk to ponder.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-20-10, 09:44
If it was you, i would try to side with these people to offer your services in exchange for food or meds.
There is strength in numbers, and so having a group of individuals larger then a small family unit may not be a bad thing. So to answer your question I would help immediate members of the community to the degree that they are able and willing to reciprocate with some for of similar help.
I think that this aggregation would eventually lead to, for lack of a better word, Warlords running areas. From what I remember from organizational classes, 250 is a really common size for a defintion of "us". Aggregate these groups together under some kind of organization and you start to have a system. If times are really tough there will be individual leaders, less pressing times would amend themselves to some kind of junta. Probably a fair amount of democratic input in leaders to keep everyone franchised, but with strict rules and harsh punishments.
I think this idea that you could hold out as a 4-6 member family group is fantasy best for made for TV movies. Like the rule in a gunfight, bring your friends and their guns. In a TEOTWAWKI I think you'll only be as safe as your 'clan' is vengeful.
ColdDeadHands:
Vengeful or resourceful and well defended/territorial, but I agree with everything you said. I have actually had some experience working in groups and trying to create systems of governance/leadership organically and without the sue of societal parameters. These were basically social experiments in college through leadership classes, job training, and certain sociology/poli sci classes.
Organic free forming units of people do tend to automatically gravitate to the charismatic single individual as leader, with a small elite group of people close to said individual to do the organization and management....
Nathan:
I think the answer in regards to "how helpful should the person be" needs to be answered based on your personal morals. For me the biggest definer is if the individual is predatory in anyway they go. That is Rule No 1. Second definer for me would be simply how the fit in with the group. Not everyone has to be super leader model 1000, some people may just like to chop big sticks into little sticks all day long and be left alone.
The strength in #s concept is very real though. While I absolutely hated the ending of the movie, I just recently watched The Postman, and I think it depicts a pretty accurate portrayal of how everything would eventually pan out (in regards to the ways the social units are grouped). Also, if you haven't read it, I would suggest picking up Guns, Germs, and Steel, it is a great book, and there are a lot of lessons to be learned in it.
I'm beginning to think getting way into back country(mountainous) for an extended period may be the best plan. Buy land many, many miles from any civilization, with much prepping, and hunker down. Plenty of heirloom seeds, possibly transport chicken, cow, and goat(easy for us), already have well, septic, and small house before SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, and set up for the long haul. Avoid everyone until things settle down. This scenario isn't available for everyone, but for some of us, it may be good way to prep.
what is the minimal skills to take someone in?
wellll.. that's gonna depend in part on what you need done whever you are, what skillsets you have and how many people you have.
you also might have a situation where there's a couple or family and one or two are beneficial, but they might have members with limited benefit or what could seem to be complete liabilities.
in a post-SHTF scenario, would Bill Gates or Stephen Hawking be assets or liabilities? just an example.
some people will have few or no skills to offer... all you could use them for is unskilled labor, providing they are not too weak, too fat, too lazy, whatever.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-22-10, 09:54
some people will have few or no skills to offer... all you could use them for is unskilled labor, providing they are not too weak, too fat, too lazy, whatever.
Too fat and lazy will quickly be rectified.
in a post-SHTF scenario, would Bill Gates or Stephen Hawking be assets or liabilities? just an example.
A neurologist just recently did a study about people as smart as these two, and one of the conclusions is that the people with this level of intelligence tend to be great problem solvers, good at innovation, and well rounded in multiple areas.
A neurologist just recently did a study about people as smart as these two, and one of the conclusions is that the people with this level of intelligence tend to be great problem solvers, good at innovation, and well rounded in multiple areas.
yes... but some might dismiss the typical scrawny nerd because they don't "look like the gung-ho hard charger" or not want someone in a wheelchair with speech problems, etc.
my point is that sometimes you've gotta look a little deeper than just what someone looks like. not everyone needs to be a trigger puller, you may need leaders, cooks, mechanics, doctors, etc. and you simply can't tell what someone has to offer in one glance.
IOW, "you can't tell a book by it's cover." :D
"well rounded" is a GOOD thing.
pilotguyo540
03-22-10, 22:24
I read the book "the road" a couple of months ago. It was basically a EOTWAWKI book with out much detail, but the horrors of the book could play out in reality if food was scarce enough. It was an utterly bleak novel without so much as a ray of hope at the end, but still a good read for the ultimate post apocalyptic hell you can imagine. All of these questions are discussed in some form.
In this scenario, taking from others was expected, because there were NO options. The reality of this story is the complete desolation of the earth with almost zero chances of rebuilding or starting over. I think if the reality changes, the morality must change as well. If society collapses the rules would have to be different in order for society to rise again. Society always rises in some form or other. When the world has become uninhabitable, well I guess you get the point.
I recommend the book if you have a pleasant outlook on life and would like to be rid of it for a while. They are making a movie, but from what I have heard, it bears little resemblance to the book. Time will tell.
in a SHTF zombie scenario its like the marines. everyone is a trigger puller and the other jobs come second
in a SHTF zombie scenario its like the marines. everyone is a trigger puller and the other jobs come second
Yes everyone very well may have to understand and be a trigger puller, your right, but I don't think that changes the basic concept of what we're talking about about being well rounded.
be well rounded of course but that means firearms too. if you cant defend yourself or assist the group in defense then you are a liability. it may make me a jerk but im okay with that. i have no qualms about letting a person leave for the good of the group. In the zombie scenario i also have no qualms about dispatching the infected.
I read the book "the road" a couple of months ago. It was basically a EOTWAWKI book with out much detail, but the horrors of the book could play out in reality if food was scarce enough. It was an utterly bleak novel without so much as a ray of hope at the end, but still a good read for the ultimate post apocalyptic hell you can imagine. All of these questions are discussed in some form.
In this scenario, taking from others was expected, because there were NO options. The reality of this story is the complete desolation of the earth with almost zero chances of rebuilding or starting over. I think if the reality changes, the morality must change as well. If society collapses the rules would have to be different in order for society to rise again. Society always rises in some form or other. When the world has become uninhabitable, well I guess you get the point.
I recommend the book if you have a pleasant outlook on life and would like to be rid of it for a while. They are making a movie, but from what I have heard, it bears little resemblance to the book. Time will tell.
The only thing that stood out to me in the book The Road were the roving gangs. The main character had a difficult time scrounging up enough food for himself and his son, but it kinda lead you to believe that the roving gang wasn't as bad off. The only way I could reconcile it in my mind was that the roving gangs could go places he couldn't because of their strength in numbers. If food was as sparse as it was for the main character, wouldn't supporting a bigger group be even more difficult? I mean I guess they could just kill off one of the less productive members of their group for a quick dinner, but that just seems a bit counterproductive to group mechanics.
trunkmonkey
04-11-10, 23:29
Only the strong survive. End of story.
Be prepared to defend what's yours.
Be prepared to take if you need.
in a SHTF zombie scenario its like the marines. everyone is a trigger puller and the other jobs come second
ok, but for a moment let's say it's NOT the zombie apocalypse... or then again, perhaps it is.
if your charismatic leader is, for example a grandmother in her 80s or 90s with a sharp mind and real world experience from the depression and the "old homestead" so she knows how to grow vegies, raise livestock, cook, etc.
but she's hardly gonna be the "trigger puller" type unless something happens to get past all the other defenses and to her, then she can probably dispatch it with a harsh look... or whatever hardware she keeps handy.
so she's valuable in her role of running things and "keeping the home fires burning" and can also do her part in making sure that those people out on patrol or doing other physical tasks have clean clothes, warm meals and medical attention when they get home. if you didn't have her, or someone like her, and whoever is with her... then you have to leave some of the "trigger puller" types at home when you're out taking care of business. if you don't leave anyone at base, you don't know what you'll return too.
just an example that sometimes... those who may seem like a liability at first may actually be an asset. same goes for younger children and anyone else who just can't cut it in the field.
take a look at a random sample of people around you. it could be everyone in your home and the home next door, everyone on your street, everyone in your office, or everyone in the next restaurant you eat in. if those were the people you ended up with, what tasks would you assign to each? assume for a moment that you can't simply "vote someone off", "kick someone out" or "send them on a one-way mission". but have to play the cards you're dealt.
yeah... in some cases you'd be pretty hosed... but make the best of the situation you find yourself in. zombies or not.
true granny might not pull triggers all the time but if it came down to it she would have to.
FMJs-of-Freedom
04-12-10, 17:23
its amazing the extents people go to when they abandon their principles. say what you want but if youre starving and there is food right in front of you....... youre gonna eat it. no one will starve to death over principle.
+1
You had better believe I am going to be in it to win it!
yes... but some might dismiss the typical scrawny nerd because they don't "look like the gung-ho hard charger" or not want someone in a wheelchair with speech problems, etc.
my point is that sometimes you've gotta look a little deeper than just what someone looks like. not everyone needs to be a trigger puller, you may need leaders, cooks, mechanics, doctors, etc. and you simply can't tell what someone has to offer in one glance.
IOW, "you can't tell a book by it's cover." :D
"well rounded" is a GOOD thing.
We agree completely there. I know that I am a leader in high stress, high anxiety, difficult situations. I have had enough of them to see the trend, and know that I am of value there. I don't faint at the sight of blood, and I think very well on my feet, and people listen to me. But I am complete shit in a sit down conversation that involves needing to be diplomatic in such a way as to get a large group to make long term choices that will benefit people over a long period of time. Therefore I can't function in the roll of a politician. Someone else will need to fill that roll, or I will just end up pissing people off. Also I can't fix a car. I can't sew up a wound. I am not very good around animals, they sense my tension, ext. As I have said before people gravitate towards groups in order to make up for their own short comings as individuals.
My sisters husband for example has no desire what so ever to learn to shoot. He could be called upon to use a weapon if need be, but I would absolutely have him with me if given the chance because he can fix anything, is an insanely talented engineer, and would basically insure that all of our systems would function at optimal levels. Not to mention that if he was around, we would have electricity no matter the situation.
Only the strong survive. End of story.
Be prepared to defend what's yours.
Be prepared to take if you need.
So insightful. You basically prove the need for a larger group with your statements, as you will obviously gravitate towards a less moral compass.
Chris19delta
04-18-10, 12:07
This thread is meant to be a philosophical discussion, nothing more.
It's a SHTF(extended) or it's TEOTWAWKI. Your family is slowly starving to death. Do you loot from non-occupied dwellings or businesses? I say yes.
Same scenario except everything has been looted from easy targets. All remaining food is in the hands of individuals and groups. Do you try and take food from others by force? If you answer yes, how would you feel if someone better trained, larger group, etc. decides to take your remaining food? As in, you can't prevent them? If you would take from someone by force, and someone did it to you, what would your attitude be? If it's ok for you to do it, isn't it ok for someone else?
You or a family member needs meds to survive. Do you loot the pharmacy? There would be other people that need the same meds. By you taking them, then you will have condemned people to die. Would you be ok with it if someone else did it before you? Would it be better to try and share the meds?(Logistics difficult). Possibly at least more people would have longer to put their families in a better position before they died.
Do you take medicine from others? If so then if someone took your medicine then turn about is fair play?
Hopefully we can have a productive discussion. I realize there are many, many variables but let's keep it civil and thought provoking.
if its a survival situation you do what you have to do to survive. of course you should try to survive w/o screwing other ppl over but if its that or die, Im doing what i have to to survive
Two cents:
Survival is something you do when your plane crashes in the wilderness.
I think what we are talking about is disaster preparedness. In other words, be prepared on the front end. The idea is to weather the disaster, keep your wits, and return things to a normal state of civilization as soon as possible. The idea is not make your neighborhood look like NOLA during Katrina.
Now, in the event of TEOTWAWKI (total system collapse) well, all bets may be off at this point. Quite frankly, I don't think this has really happened in all of human history. Even during the Medieval years of the Plague, civilization and society did not collapse.
Most modern disasters last from 72hrs to 2 weeks on the outside. Pretty much everybody should prepare to live for two weeks with no outside help to include foraging/looting for basic necessities. Please note that a blue plastic tote full of 'Hinies' is rarely a basic necessity.
Beyond the two week point, I not sure anyone has an idea of how this will play out because I am not sure it has happened in the US in anyone's living memory. I am pretty sure you would be looking at cutting into that year supply of Nitro-Pak. If that is the case, it is also time to start planting food depending on the season.
For the most part, your long term survival strategy should prepare you to live a pre-electric 19th century existence.
If looting is part of your survival plan, you may want to look at a new plan.
Two cents:
Survival is something you do when your plane crashes in the wilderness.
I think what we are talking about is disaster preparedness. In other words, be prepared on the front end. The idea is to weather the disaster, keep your wits, and return things to a normal state of civilization as soon as possible. The idea is not make your neighborhood look like NOLA during Katrina.
Now, in the event of TEOTWAWKI (total system collapse) well, all bets may be off at this point. Quite frankly, I don't think this has really happened in all of human history.Even during the Medieval years of the Plague, civilization and society did not collapse.
Most modern disasters last from 72hrs to 2 weeks on the outside. Pretty much everybody should prepare to live for two weeks with no outside help to include foraging/looting for basic necessities. Please note that a blue plastic tote full of 'Hinies' is rarely a basic necessity.
Beyond the two week point, I not sure anyone has an idea of how this will play out because I am not sure it has happened in the US in anyone's living memory.I am pretty sure you would be looking at cutting into that year supply of Nitro-Pak. If that is the case, it is also time to start planting food depending on the season.
For the most part, your long term survival strategy should prepare you to live a pre-electric 19th century existence.
If looting is part of your survival plan, you may want to look at a new plan.
Seriously?I can come up with a list if needed.If we're simply talking about regional events(which is all that matters if it's your region) I don't know if I have the time.I don't think the fact that "there's civilization somewhere out there" is going to be much comfort if you're not in it for a prolonged period of time/indefinitely.
By todays standards it didn't exist to begin with.
and i guess what happened to Argentina was just a bad joke?
Ok guys, so give me a historical disaster situation that you think justifies abandoning civil order.
Third world countries like Somalia or Haiti really don't count because (I think) we are talking about actual real disaster preparedness here in the US (or elsewhere in the Western world).
A lot of SHTFers and TEOTWAWKI gang like to entertain fantasies of Zombie Apocalypse and Mad Max when there are plenty of real world examples to look at. Any strategy and planning should be informed by reasonable assumptions. Unless you live in a NORAD like compound (with a NORAD budget) you need to get real and prepare for things that might actually happen.
Argentina is interesting because it has always been a pretty developed country. What specifically are you talking about?
here ya go.
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/10.08/tshtf1.html
Sorry,I've been meaning for the last couple days to put together a bunch of examples with links etc.
...Just too busy(and lazy).
A simple Google search on "collapse of civilizations" should accomplish the same thing minus my filtering out what I would consider relevant to the discussion.
The most popular hits will obviously be Incan,Mayan,Roman,etc.But there are countless examples on various scales and with various causes.Including many modern/recent examples.
I guess the least I can do is link to the search.:p
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ACGW_enUS318US318&q=collapse+of+civilizations+&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
It was called "The Dark Ages" for a reason.
Not that I don't get your point.
Glock17JHP
05-01-10, 08:35
If the SHTF in my area, I would stay at home (where I belong) and protect my family and property. We would all work together. If you go and forage around off your property, you are on someone else's property. Expect to be shot.
I think it wise (and accurate) that we, the savvy, will choose to SURVIVE first and foremost. I choose to do so with as small a "footprint" as possible meaning with as little begging, borrowing, stealing and fighting as possible. In other words, live like a fox, bobcat, leopard, ..., you get the point. To do so requires personal preparation otherwise you'll live (while you can) like a lion - stealing and quarreling like the majority have chosen. Keep God first and foremost and you'll be fine. Hungry and humiliated, perhaps, but fine.
If it is SHTF to the point where you are taking from others...... not borrowing or using because they aren't there but TAKING..... there is no leaving a note.
This is the point where you decide if your willing to eat human flesh to live.
Glock17JHP
05-03-10, 13:14
I think it wise (and accurate) that we, the savvy, will choose to SURVIVE first and foremost. I choose to do so with as small a "footprint" as possible meaning with as little begging, borrowing, stealing and fighting as possible. In other words, live like a fox, bobcat, leopard, ..., you get the point. To do so requires personal preparation otherwise you'll live (while you can) like a lion - stealing and quarreling like the majority have chosen. Keep God first and foremost and you'll be fine. Hungry and humiliated, perhaps, but fine.
Agree 100% with you...
Look, let's be REALISTIC here, OK?
If you are posting here, I am going to assume you are much more prepared than any of your neighbors are... thus, THEY will run out of supplies before YOU...
The stores will be looted out of anything meaningful during the first few days... you will not be wanting/needing anything at this point, either...
So... when YOU finally get desperate enough to take from others due to running out of supplies, where do you think you will be able to go to borrow/steal more???
It is far more likely that OTHERS will be trying to steal from YOU before you ever get to that point...
Keep a low profile, don't waste, and prepare to defend what you have...
You know, so much of this is dependent upon where you live. I had never given that much thought until reading these threads. I live on 6 acres of family land in a small neighborhood in north Florida. We are surrounded by a bay on one side (300 yards away) and 3 miles from the Gulf of Mexico.
We do not evac. during storms, as we are high and dry and this house has weathered every storm for 30+ years without loosing a shingle. I have a generator, a well, and a shallow well with a hand pump. I have enough squirrels to feed my family for a few months, fishing in the bay, and all the old folks around me have gardens and can their veggies.
My biggest concern is that I am one of the few younger, able bodied males in my area, and many of my neighbors are "family" I have known my entire life. How do you take care of an entire neighborhood? Luckily, short term (a few weeks) food won't be a huge issue, and they all could survive without power. Like I said, most of the old folks garden, fish, and all have at least a .22 or a shot gun.
For anything longer term than a few weeks, my plan definitely DOES call for scrounging, or stealing. I have 2 very large area's with in a couple of miles that are full of beach rentals, and near beach rental properties. Probably upwards of 300 homes that would be empty if there was any warning at all of an upcoming disaster.
How different someones situation would be up north, in winter, in a city, is hard for me to imagine!
Davesrb
Glock17JHP
06-03-10, 13:08
Look, let's be REALISTIC here, OK?
If you are posting here, I am going to assume you are much more prepared than any of your neighbors are... thus, THEY will run out of supplies before YOU...
The stores will be looted out of anything meaningful during the first few days... you will not be wanting/needing anything at this point, either...
So... when YOU finally get desperate enough to take from others due to running out of supplies, where do you think you will be able to go to borrow/steal more???
It is far more likely that OTHERS will be trying to steal from YOU before you ever get to that point...
Keep a low profile, don't waste, and prepare to defend what you have...
I'll stick with this earlier post I made...
The will to live is the most basic desire. If modern society is a pyramid, as we strip it away layer by layer, it will come to survival of the fittest.
So yes, if it came down to "me or them", "me" will win the moral argument, if not the battle.
A 1984 movie called "Threads" would be something for you all to watch.
Takes place in 1984's Great Britain. Set around a few families in the outskirts of a large industrial city.
Ends up with a nuclear war caused by the USSR and their invasion of AFG.
Free on Google:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2023790698427111488#
I look at SHTF as being like this, "The Road" or "The Book of Eli" and not a Katrina situation. With Katrina, you'd have to remember that things will pan out relatively soon and you will be held accountable for the things you may or may not have "needed" to do.
The other situation, well, you'll never be accountable for what you do, only to yourself and God so if you do what you have to do to survive, do it fairly and humanely, then you should be ok.
Glock17JHP
06-25-10, 20:42
You have 2 schools of thought, and relativism is one of them. Relativism says to do unto others before they do unto you. The other says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I may have survival skills and tools and food and water, but I won't take from someone else who prepared better than myself. I trust God even when it looks like I shouldn't. I have learned to do that over time. I do my best now to prepare for the worst, but if I die... then I die. It will be better on the other side... trust me.
G17 nails it for me.
All of us are likely going to be way better prepared than others. Beyond that I don't steal and I don't eat other people, that's a couple of the things that make me one of the good guys.
RogerinTPA
06-26-10, 10:22
A 1984 movie called "Threads" would be something for you all to watch.
Takes place in 1984's Great Britain. Set around a few families in the outskirts of a large industrial city.
Ends up with a nuclear war caused by the USSR and their invasion of AFG.
Free on Google:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2023790698427111488#
I look at SHTF as being like this, "The Road" or "The Book of Eli" and not a Katrina situation. With Katrina, you'd have to remember that things will pan out relatively soon and you will be held accountable for the things you may or may not have "needed" to do.
The other situation, well, you'll never be accountable for what you do, only to yourself and God so if you do what you have to do to survive, do it fairly and humanely, then you should be ok.
Agreed.
Natural disasters are temporary in nature. That's why smart folks who live on the Gulf, in FL or along the eastern seaboard, have some temporary preparations in order to survive for a a week or so.
Situations like "the road, book of eli, 2012" truly SHTF shit, IF you survive the initial and immediate aftermath, and not immediately killed by your fellow man, will depend on your skill set stored in your brain housing group, with or without a weapon or previsions, to survive.
I guess I ought to clarify what I mean by "taking from others". I have no thoughts of taking from others who are using it. My point is that in a "summer resort" area where 90+ percent of the houses would be empty during a natural or un natural disaster, scavenging would be a viable option once my stores ran out.
Bear in mind that my stores could hold my family and immediate neighbors for at least 3-4 weeks at full rations, and most of my neighbors have canned food stores of their own. But if a disaster lasted longer than that, I would be scavenging from empty homes. If a disaster out lasts my stores and there is not government emergency services available, then the situation is desperate enough that I wouldn't be worried about later accountability.
Davesrb
HuntingTime
06-26-10, 23:45
The logic is flawed. All things existing are owned by someone. If it is a Wal-mart then the shareholders of the company "many people around the world" own those goods. Don't you think they would want first dibs on their own assets even if they can't get to them. What if I am at work when "SHTF"? Are the contents of my house fair game? People are going to rob, kill and still when it all goes down. Society is held together by order. There wouldn't be "SHTF" if everything was in order.
If my family is going to starve to death if I don't rob someone down the street, then I certainly am not going to sit there and watch them die.
Glock17JHP
06-27-10, 18:39
OK... let's all assume you mean it when you say: "If my family is going to starve to death if I don't rob someone down the street, then I certainly am not going to sit there and watch them die."
If you are like me, you have enough supplies to last you at least 4 weeks or so before your family is actually facing that scenario (starving to death). Where do you expect to scavange or 'rob someone' that long after everything goes bad? Most of our society is not prepare to go 4 days, let alone 4 weeks. After 4 weeks, you are running low on supplies, right? The scavengers and 'robbers' have already been searching out there for 2-3 weeks now. Those that are still alive are more desperate and dangerous than you are. So if you are out-and-about 'scavenging' and 'robbing', who is protecting your house and family? Your role at this point should be protector and defender... not 'robber'.
Have you folks really thought this scenario out?
Yes, quite a bit have I thought this out...
1) I have a (4) month supply on hand for each person/dog in the house. Learn to rotate your stock well and use Food sales at grocery stores to stock up more, you don't have to buy all the food at once, just keep buying a few items each time you go to the store and rotate out what you use daily and rotate in the new sutff, very easy. I built up my (4) month supply over a years time and it barely affected my regular finances.
2) Water!!!! Have at least 100 gallons on hand, and have a still so you can distill your urine and keep re-useing. water bladders are key, as well a barrels (I prefer bladders because of ease of storage). I have a hot tub out back, if SHTF it turns into a 1,000 gallon water container. Also water purifiying tabs and carbon filters, knowledge of water purification (Too many people die from purifying water htat has large metal particulates in it, learn how to really purify water all around)...
3) Have back up equipment, soil (Or hydro equipment), nutrients, seeds/rhizomes and energy sources to grow your own food. I have a set up that will allow me to grow all the food needed for my family (maybe not feasting every night, but we would still survive in the long haul if scavegin was not an option!). I have run the system to know what it can handle and how far I can push it.
4) Have the ability to make your own fuel. I have about (1000) pounds of corn sugar sealed and stored and ready to make E85 with my still if need be, and I have the E85 units installed on all my generators (When the genrators run out, I have a battery array hooked up to a solar array and a wind turbine that can be installed in about (1)hour). Also I have a water turbine/engine set up used as a motor/pump for all the systems in my house. It is somewhat like a Tesla engine that uses basic prinicples of hydrophysics to operate; it has a plethora of uses, and I find new ones everyday.
6) First aid: real first aid involves a lot; pain killers, antibiotics and a plethora of other medical resources. Have any and everything you can find. I got some antibiotics and pain killers from a trusted animal vet who knew my true purpose for the stuff. You can order stuff like that from other countries as well. Having a form of antibiotic is key for long term survival.
5) Booby trap the **** out of your property and make a map to study with every night with the family; mark "poopy" areas with a visible marker that only the fam will know of. Make a plan and train for that scenario. Use the chaos of your booby traps to come in and kill the intruders with a well regulated strike. BE very strict about knowing and avoidin these traps.
6) Make your house/property as camoflouged as possible. Know your area and have several excape routes to follow if needed.
7) This is really #1 on every survival list...
GET YOUR HEAD INTO THE RIGHT STATE OF MIND TO SURVIVE AND KILL, YOU ARE AN ANIMAL AND NO ONE WILL GET THE BEST OF YOU.
Mentally fortify yourself everyday and keep your thoughts possitive. The most common reason people die in dire situations is not water food or shelter; it is mentally giving up and not being able to go on; literally sitting down and dying from disgrace. Learn to strengthen your mind and control your thoughts; it may just save your life.
And hell yes, if I need to to steal to provide for my own in a survival SHTF situation, **** YES I will do so, no second thoughts no hesitation (Those things get you killed quick in SHTF situations). No justification is needed to make things "right" when one is trying to survive; it is intrinsic to our being to keep ourselves alive and well. That is what a SHTF situation is, we stop being so comfrotable and start being animals again trying to survive. If you don't feel "right" about taking something to stay alive, then, by all means you have the right to die. Not everything is "Butterflies and lollipops"; you deal with the pain and sacrifice when you have to, so you can live to see better times.
Now that being said, I'm not going to be going around stealing everything there is of worth and hording it; just what is necessary to survive.
Glock17JHP
06-28-10, 22:10
A lot of what you list is good... some is not...
#4 and #5 are not low profile, they will get you noticed.
Generators, lights, motors and pumps will get the attention of those who are beginning to starve before you do, and are living in the dark at night. Expect to be overrun by desperate folks who want what you have...
Boobytraps and shooting will also make your 'safe zone' stand out. If there are NG, military or LE, expect to be overrun by them...
You have to think LOW PROFILE!!!
A lot of what you list is good... some is not...
#4 and #5 are not low profile, they will get you noticed.
Generators, lights, motors and pumps will get the attention of those who are beginning to starve before you do, and are living in the dark at night. Expect to be overrun by desperate folks who want what you have...
Boobytraps and shooting will also make your 'safe zone' stand out. If there are NG, military or LE, expect to be overrun by them...
You have to think LOW PROFILE!!!
Thanks for the advice there man. You seem to know what your doing, so, let's hear your plan. Let's fast forward 5 weeks into the event. Your food stock is depleted. You live in So-Cal so your population density is extreme. As you stated earlier, your initial response is to bug-in, so 5 weeks into it, your bugged into your house, with your family, keeping a low profile, and your hungry... What is your next step???
Enlighten me.
Glock17JHP
06-29-10, 14:13
OK, I'll bite...
I live in a housing tract. Houses only... as far as you could walk in a day. The properties average probably 75 X 150' in size. Gardens and the like (for food) are very rare, I know of none in the immediate area. This is an arrid desert-like area naturally, the only greenery depends on water brought here by technology, there are no wells, etc. I have food to last perhaps 6-8 weeks at best, and water enough to last perhaps 8-12 weeks.
So, let's say I'm at home, I run out of food eventually, and am running low on water, right?
If I am smart, I have been praying from the time the problem began. I believe in the power of prayer. During these first 5 weeks I have been thinking, observing and praying. As I see things, there would be 2 options: LEAVE or STAY.
If the outlook appears such that leaving would increase my family's chances for survival, I am going to leave. As far as where to go? That depends on a lot of things. I have family in Southern California, Northern California, Arizona, Texas and Missouri. The specifics going on would dictate where I might go. The family ties are strong, and other family is also prepared.
If it looks like it is a better idea to stay put, I will do that. If we run out of everything, then obviously we will die.
I can only think of 1 family (husband and wife) who might outlast us, and we are good friends and like-minded in our faith. We live next door to eachother. I honestly think we would be the last survivors here if everyone in this area stayed put.
Would I take from others? No. Why not? Because I don't think it would be safe or productive to do so. The only exception might be if a home nearby was vacant because the homeowners abandoned it. The only things I would take would be just enough to survive. If someone was still there? No, I won't take it from someone else who is still there. I would only take what someone else left behind, and even then I would only take what would help me survive.
So... long story short (too late, huh?)...
I might take what does not belong to me to survive, but only if it was abandoned.
A lot of what you list is good... some is not...
#4 and #5 are not low profile, they will get you noticed.
Generators, lights, motors and pumps will get the attention of those who are beginning to starve before you do, and are living in the dark at night. Expect to be overrun by desperate folks who want what you have...
Boobytraps and shooting will also make your 'safe zone' stand out. If there are NG, military or LE, expect to be overrun by them...
You have to think LOW PROFILE!!!
YEs I understand very well what you are saying. Anything that makes noise in my home is underground with sound baffles camoed from above. The only things that would be giveaways would be the solar array, and only if you're standing right next to it, or flying above, and the greenhouse. The wind generator is easy to hide if not in use and easy to re-install for use. As far as booby traps and the such; I know my limitations ("Know your limit; ski within it!"); if military or bands of LEO (trained and armed men who out number my defensive capabilities) are coming, I have other plans to inplement, mainly getting to safer ground and re-assessing the situation. My entire house is blacked out with no light emitting form it when needed. I even went so far as to dig escape tunnels with "bug-out" supplies in them just in case. The majority of my home is underground, and whats above is very hard to determine unless you know what and where to look for/at.
THe easiest thing to discover is the greenhouse, but it is well away from the house and has it's own set of defenses/alarms (Silent alarms). Plus I have an indoor growing system that has plenty of rechragealbe (Trickles charged from photovolts, plus I have a hand crnk and bicycle hooked up so I can trickle charge it with my own power as well) battery life, if the greenhouse is inaccessable/not an option for some reason.
Believe me I put a lot of stock into being speedy, aggressive and silent, but I also know that building a defensive home and having aplan for the long run is necessary to me in a SHTF situation. If I have to leave the dwelling due to danger, so be it, I have other plans in place if such a happenning should be required.
My list above is more of a long-term survival model. Where I live (In the middle of nowhere south-western Colorado) I won't have to worry about the exact same chaos as in the cities and metropolitan areas. My closest neighbor is miles away, and the closest after that is about (20) miles away. Using my large amount of land as a huge defensive arena is my primary mode; then if I need to bug-out, I have that all planned out as well; not that "plans" go as they should in SHTF situations, but at least you have an idea of how what and where; the rest you have to adapt to.
I agree 100% with you glock17JHP; if staying is more viable to your survival; stay, likewise, if leaving is; then leave. I set my house up and my family up to survive and thrive for extended periods of time on our land and in our home in a dire situation, but if we need to leave and seek safety elsewhere, we will do so quickly and wisely.
FYI.
I love when someone says they are going to start taking from others when they need to. By that time arrives, the ones left will be the ones with guns and guts. Good luck on taking from them or me. Oh yeah, don't forget that taking from others will get you hunted down and shot by the survivors. By the time you want to start taking, there will be some form of organization, and I suspect frontier justice will be in full control. Taking in the wild west(or other lawless areas) got you shot or hung; going to be the same after the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
What someone that says they will take from others is really saying is that if it's ok for them to do it, then they have no prob. with someone doing it to them. Turnabout is fair play, right?
I love when someone says they are going to start taking from others when they need to. By that time arrives, the ones left will be the ones with guns and guts. Good luck on taking from them or me. Oh yeah, don't forget that taking from others will get you hunted down and shot by the survivors. By the time you want to start taking, there will be some form of organization, and I suspect frontier justice will be in full control. Taking in the wild west(or other lawless areas) got you shot or hung; going to be the same after the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
What someone that says they will take from others is really saying is that if it's ok for them to do it, then they have no prob. with someone doing it to them. Turnabout is fair play, right?
I do not plan on having to take anything form anyone; I have implented a plan and systems in my home to not have to for as long as possible. But as the question was asked; if I really needed to take a jug of water to survive from someone; I would. I wouldn't allow my wife or children to die. We all like to play the "IF thi shappened I would pray to god and not do 1 negative thing..." game, but really look to history for your answer to this one; everytime there has been total collapse, people get very uncomfortable and start acting like our true selves onjce again; downright chaotic maniacal animals.
I'm not trying to downplay the need for faith or the strentgh in prayer/god; I'm just saying; are you really going to starve to death instead of steal some food? Really? I mean murder is a natural thing, taking from another is a natural thing, it happens in nature all the time; are you going to be so arrogant as to wander so far from your own true nature that you will die instead of revert back to the animal that you truly are?
Everyone is so ksuhy in their day to day lives; and have been for long enough (generations) that they forget about the true nature of the world: survival of the fittest, if you don't have water or food; well it's hard to be the fittest, and thus hard to survive.
And yes turnabout is totally "fair" (Not fair exactly, as there is no quantifiable definition of "fair"; things will be as they will be; fair never enters the equation; just like "equality" is a fairytale, so is fairness) , I expect people to try and steal from me in these situations, so I put in place a defense system to stem their ability to do so. It's about honor; there is no sanctity of life (HA! "Sanctity of Life" was made up by/for people who don't want to die from fear of the unknown and think they are special in this decomposing existence of systematic chaos; well you're not, you mean no more to this universe than that piece of dog shit you have stuck to the bottom of your shoe!)
We like to think we are so special, and this world is all "butterflies and lollipops" but we are all just the same molded shit that has been remolded time and time again; a writhing mass of concious particles vibrating into, and out of one another constantly.
So again if I am in dire need of food and water I will steal it to survive. I'm not going to start marauding the first day after I run out of food, I would make a sincere effort to find another way to procure the nutrients I / my family needed, but if that didn't work, I just might try my hand at stealing from another survivor if abandoned supplies weren't available; if he kills me, so be it; likewise if someone is despearate enought o try and steal from me, I will either kill them; so be it; or they will kill me; so be it, that is life, so are the rules of honor...
I'm sick of all the "I wouldn't do that in that situation" bullshit. You would turn into a murderous asshole just like the other 99% of us; if it were integral to your survival; or you'd die off pretty quick, period.
It's simple physics really; every action reuquires an equal or oppossite reaction. So if you are stariving, it is an extreme ordeal, and would require the use of extreme measures as a proper reaction.
We are only nice and happy to eachother because we are so comfortable, once that comfort is gone, we are lions in the bush fighting amongst the chaos.
It's kind of like this; right now in my life and for all of it I have never wanted to kill anyone, never wanted to shoo them or harm them in any way, but if they try and harm me/my family; I am gonna do what I have to do; whatever that may be. Fighting is not something I like to do or seek out either, but I have had a lot of dudes want to fight me, and it was necessary to fight back to defend myself; likewise in a SHTF scenario; stealing from others is the last thing I would want to do; but if necessary for my family/my survival I would.
In the end, you have to live with yourself; or allow yourself to wither and die; so go ahead and choose when the time comes.
6933:
By your logic, not stealing the food and dying would be a more viable option than stealing and being hunted and potentially dying? I just don't get this form of logic: "Don't steal to save your life because you'll potentially end up dead..."
Well ****, if your going to die from starvation; who gives a **** if you "may possibly" get hunted down and killed; your chances at survival are exponentially greater being alive and hunted then they are being dead on the ground from starvation; are they not??
And just to clarify; I'm not trying to be rude or a dick in any of these statements, or to any poster; I am just a very passionate man; so I hope it isn't coming off that way...
I'm sorry Glock17 but if your answer is pray, I don't think I can take you seriously. But thank you for your thoughts.
Glock17JHP
07-02-10, 20:47
6933,
I pretty much agree overall with your last comment.
mac5.56,
Sorry you feel that way about prayer. It seems our country has mostly gone that direction in the past couple of generations. Actually, the majority of this world agrees with you. That is fine with me, I answer to God (not god, THCDDM4), and I am perfectly OK if you see life differently. Being a prayer warrior is not the same as being passive, it is admitting that I am not the most supreme being... something a big ego has trouble with. I even read my Bible daily, too!!! :(
THCDDM4,
I appreciate your honesty. I have a few friends who share your general views, and we have very interesting conversations and still learn from eachother. I am amazed at the level of preparations you have made!!! Wow!!! Just try to remember that not all of us think we came from animals, and not all of us think we need to act like them, either. Humans have a conscience, animals do not. Animals go on instinct, which can be predictable and get the animal killed. Question: If you have a family, and you are the husband/primary protector/provider... does the whole family go an try to steal/kill together, or do you go alone and risk leaving them vulnerable should you be killed? I am not trying to be rude, either... this is just another consideration.
Glock:
It really depends on the situation at hand if we stay together or separate, there are too many variables invovled in these situations to say I would do this or that. I have just been working on being aware of the majority of situations that are proobable and how to best deal with them if they so happen to arise.
I am a very spiritual man, my GOD doesn't fit nice and neat in to any single organized religion (or fit in with any eclectic mish mash either, I think very differently about God than most); I have a very close relationship with my creator, and that is why I prepare the way I do; and also why I would do everything in my power, and beyond, to help my family survive and thrive.
The amtter of animals having a conscience is relative; truly relative.
Most would find me crazy for my ideals; but isn't consiousness just a form of perception? So how can one sya that because we as humans perceive something one way (Oh and we perceivve things differently as well within our own species!) and that is it? Our species may appear to toher species as we appear to them; walking around like idiots wwithout reason fighting amongst eachother and acting very brash and insane in most cases these days. Is it not possible, ney VERY PROBABLE and firly easy to objectivly view; that there are many levels of perception and states of being; along wiht many dimensions and universes?
Who is to say the way we see things i the way they are. ****, the way we literally see things is very deceiving. OUr brain creates shapes from reflection; our brains are wired a certain way to have them decide which patterns to put together and how that information is quantified and processed by our brain and our very soul. There is much research into the human brainand it's "wiring". It is comonnly accepted that our brains were much diffeent 3000 years ago; our perception was completely different.
I am not so arogant as to say I KNOW FOR SURE that other beings that we perceive as being driven by the mechanism of instinct; may just be a necessary construct of our existence; and they may be more concious than we; anything is possible. Maybe how we perceive animals is key to our survival, we are becoming more and more concious all the time, evolving as a species and as individuals; also evolving alongside our animal friends. Just think abou thtis for a second; we domesticated dogs thousands of years ago and have lived alongside them, closely alongside them ever since. It makes sense that dogs are the only animals who can pick up our emotional states and quantify that information just by our facial expressions and verbal tonality. And likewise we can do the same with them unlike any other species on earth. Maybe we are slowly opening up to eahcother and shifting our perceptions of eachother?
God is a path and journey into ourselves and others; is our journey not meant to grasp the true ubiquitous nature of our God and see that things are much more complicated than we may perceive them, or even wish to accept them to be? Regardles of religous or scientific teachings; we are all observers in an extremely beautiful enigmatic symphony of life, death and whatever may be in between; can things be so linear in such a chaotic and diversified existence? I think not, the bounds of perception are endless and staggering, any thing we can think exists somewhere somehow, if not just in our minds; but does that make it any less real? What we see with our eyes is only a reflection on our grey matter, so who is to say what is real and what is not; I am not one to count all my apples before the tree grows, but I sure do love to watch the trees grow and enjoy the fruits of life.
wHO IS TO SAY THAT ALL CONCIOUSNESS IS AND AHS TO BE THE SAME; by the vey nature of our universe, I would find it very hard to believe that there are not many levels and plains of coonciousness; maybe we are moving clsoer to one another or further apart. One day we may be able to "tune in" and "tune out" from different state of being and perceptions. Conciousness has been evolving for quite a while now, and is starting to reach the critical exponential phase; the possibilities are vast and mind boggeling to say the least; unfathomable. All of the evolution we have seen in the past will double consecutivly in very short periods of time; truly an amazing and beautiful time to be alive and observe/contemplate our very
existence...
By the way sorry for all the spelling errors, I ahte them, but I am too lazy to fix them right now.
Happy Independence Day!!!! THANK YOU TO ALL THE VETS AND CURRENT SOLDIERS; YOU ARE VERY APPRECIATED FOR YOUR SERVICE AND SACCRIFICE TO THIS COUNTRY!
The current condition of the world has me reading these types of threads with a bit more interest. Like a lot of old gun guys, and those who read Mel Tappan's books and articles 30 years ago, I've always had guns, ammo, tools, flashlights, some stored food, etc., put away, but nothing overly serious. My family would be OK for a month or so, but then it would start getting interesting.
But as an old cop, I have to tell you I don't think most folks have any idea just how low a large percentage of, probably most, people will sink to under severe stress. I can tell you how low they will go under conditions nowhere near "teotwawki", as I've seen it, just as a lot of you have. If it ever really gets as bad as some scenarios discussed here, trying to defend what you have will likely be nearly impossible. Having your wife and your cousin watch your back while you milk the cow sounds romantic, but the reality is, anyone with anything of value, (food especially), would be quickly overrun, when millions of city dwellers "head for the hills" in a disaster. Not only do many like minded folks have the same plan as some here, but most everyone else will soon figure out that they're not going to find food in a city after the stores are bare.
A lot of you have equipment and training in defense skills that are beyond 99.99% of folks, but when there's hundreds, (or more), of hungry, desperate people roaming your area with deer rifles, Glocks, 10-22's, and Molotov cocktails, unless you've made arrangements for air support or arty, you're going to get awfully tired after a few days.
That all said, I think having a plan and equipment to survive is a great idea, as hopefully any shtf scenario any of us have to face will be far more mild then the one in "The Road". But even under less disastrous conditions, don't count on the goodness of people to come shining through. Not only would most people steal if they're hungry, many will kill to do it.
THCDDM4 - your dog must be more enlightened than mine. Mine just licks his balls and craps on the carpet.
Glock17JHP
07-05-10, 00:28
THCDDM4,
Thank you for opening up and telling me how you think, and some of the philosophy as well as some of your thinking/religious views you have. May I do likewise?
I may be a throwback to the patriots of yesteryear here in the good old USA. If you look at history (not the re-written junk we allow the public schools to feed our kids), you will find that this great country was founded by folks who were sick and tired of the religious oppression in England, and came here as a result. Nearly half of the signers of the Constitution had Seminary degrees!!! Did you even know that? Many of the writings of our founders gave credit to God, basically telling that we as a nation were nothing without God (not just any God, the God of the Bible). Our leaders prayed, and prayed often. They were men of action, but prayer was an important part of their lives, too. How different we are as a nation today... our recent 'Day of Prayer' was practically ignored by our leaders in Washington, DC. I am not saying you all need to believe the same way I do, we live in a free country where you can follow pretty much any religious view. However, I would remind you that our founding fathers felt quite similar to the way I do. But we have freedom here in the USA... so believe what you will. But please, allow me to believe the way some have continued to believe for over 200 years in this great country we call home.
Being a Christian used to be viewed as a good thing... at least until the 1960's or 1970's. I am old enough to have seen it change to what we have today, and I just see it as a sign of things to come.
And that, my friends, is the way I think.
Glock:
Yes I am aware of our countries ties to faith and religion; our forefathers commitment to such and how it influenced our very nations inception. I pray often as well, and I do not look down upon Christianity or any other religion; I respect each pathwway to God as a neceesarry part of life, and each individuals ultimate freedom to chooose their specific path as they see fit. I agree with you; this couintry is going in a bad directiona dn ahs for about 100 years now; legislation that enslaves each and every one of us is adopted as "safety" measures and the govt. "taking care of" us and "doing whats in our best interests". The public school system is a sham; it is a mechanism of Government indoctrination against the family model this country was built upon and strengthened by; for the majority of our its history. Until the so-called "womans Liberation" movement (Total misnomer) which was actually engineered by the likes of the financial elite (Rothchilds, the Rockefellars and the Morgans, etc...); they found an ingeious way to make woman think they needed to work and there by create whole new economies and collect that 50% of the populations taxes that were once staying home teaching there children ethics, civics, morals, how to be a good human being; how to overcome adversity through enginuity and keeping the family strong and the govt. weak against us as individuals and as a whole society. "Womans liberation" was actually a bunch of men who wanted to collect the previously uncollected 50% of the populations taxes and teach your kids to be children of the state instead of children of their respective families. Don't get me wrong, I do not wish woman to lose their suffferage or there freedom of choice, but the whole "movement" was to derail the strong family system and homogenize the typical American child into believeing their government cared for them and provided for them; well they did a good job of brain washing our youths did they not? Over the last 100 hundred years we have gone from a virtuous ethical morally responsible, engenuity driven people to a bunch of cows that buy shit and watch American Idle; escape into our mediated realities via technology and increasingly dumbed down gebnerations love it; they line up to be enslaved for fear of not fitting in. We allow our Government to walk all over our brothers and sisters with little more than a few words of apprehension.
It is very much time to go back to our virtuoous ways of being independently strong and fiathful; whatever that faith may be.
Not only do I respect people of religous conviction; be it Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc; I look up to them very much; specifically those who do so in a manner that is not judgemental and derogitory to different thoughts/ideals/beliefs. Too many times people use religion as a broad sword against those they fear or find different; when it should be used as a poetic gesture of love and brotherhood through which we journey to find wisdom and compassion through God. What I cannot stand is one using there religion to persecute others; man interpreting Gods will to weild power over others and to subjegate others and demonize certain ways of being/ideals that are different then theirs; its disgusting and I find no aspect of God, faith or spirituality in such ignorance.
No matter how separate or different our God(s) may be; we all have eachother as brothers & sisters to either love or hate, to lift up or put down, to save or destroy.
THCDDM4 - your dog must be more enlightened than mine. Mine just licks his balls and craps on the carpet.
I see the same things in most humans, they may have conciousness, but essentially they are licking their balls and shiting on their faces at the same time; at least thats how I perceive a lot fo them; YMMV...
Funny you should mention my dog, she is more alive and enlightened than most of the slaves out there living in there facebook moderated tweet me and text me bullshit "existence". I see more blind sheep these days than human beings...
Most people these days are pathetic excuses for human beings...
And I'm speaking quite nicely, most are 85% television/internet, 10% fear, and 5% themselves/human.
telecustom
07-05-10, 11:54
Even though I enjoy the banter, lets get back on topic. Thanks. :)
Thomas M-4
07-05-10, 12:55
OK... let's all assume you mean it when you say: "If my family is going to starve to death if I don't rob someone down the street, then I certainly am not going to sit there and watch them die."
If you are like me, you have enough supplies to last you at least 4 weeks or so before your family is actually facing that scenario (starving to death). Where do you expect to scavange or 'rob someone' that long after everything goes bad? Most of our society is not prepare to go 4 days, let alone 4 weeks. After 4 weeks, you are running low on supplies, right? The scavengers and 'robbers' have already been searching out there for 2-3 weeks now. Those that are still alive are more desperate and dangerous than you are. So if you are out-and-about 'scavenging' and 'robbing', who is protecting your house and family? Your role at this point should be protector and defender... not 'robber'.
Have you folks really thought this scenario out?
This is a great post
Glock17JHP
07-05-10, 13:12
THCDDM4,
Well said, I pretty much agree with your last post...
telecustom,
I agree with you, also... I was already thinking we were too off-topic half a dozen posts ago. I just felt I needed to respond to some others. Count me back on-topic now...
Thomas M-4,
Thank you...
Sorry for taking us way off topic. Back to it...
Agree 100% with you...
Look, let's be REALISTIC here, OK?
If you are posting here, I am going to assume you are much more prepared than any of your neighbors are... thus, THEY will run out of supplies before YOU...
The stores will be looted out of anything meaningful during the first few days... you will not be wanting/needing anything at this point, either...
So... when YOU finally get desperate enough to take from others due to running out of supplies, where do you think you will be able to go to borrow/steal more???
It is far more likely that OTHERS will be trying to steal from YOU before you ever get to that point...
Keep a low profile, don't waste, and prepare to defend what you have...
Oh, I am being realistic. And we agree fully. I believe cooperation is the way: coopt the hungry, fiery-eyed guy three houses down. He has SOME skill and he CAN assist.
It's the real "Each One Reach One".
THC- You didn't answer my question. Going by your logic, if someone takes your supplies by force, then you would say that's just the way it is. That's what you would do if you were starving, so then it is ok for someone to do it to you, right?
As far as your postulating that we are only happy and civil when we are comfortable. I disagree. For some, maybe, for everyone, no. I lived in NOLA before, during, and after Katrina. The few that were left stuck together, looked out for each other, and protected the neighborhoods. This occurred even when food and water was short.
Once again, I say that those that decide to loot and steal-even if to feed a family-will be the first to go. Whatever civilization is left will not tolerate brigandage.
Just look at the frontier in the 1700's. Life was precarious and in certain areas food and water were in short supply. Those that stole or looted, even to feed a family, were dealt with harshly.
Saying you would loot and steal to feed a family or yourself is naive. People tend to use an argument similar to that no one can watch their child starve without doing anything. These people haven't dug deeper. Possibly they aren't religious. If so, then my line of reasoning is useless. But, if one is, then one needs to take a deeper examination of the mitzvahs(commandments). There is no caveat to "Though Shalt Not Steal." It doesn't say, "but it's ok if you're hungry." You will still have to answer for the stealing. I'm only on this ball of dirt for a while. I have to spend eternity somewhere and I prefer cool weather.
Now, if my previous paragraph is useless to you, then maybe consider your thought to steal if necessary to feed you and possibly a family. You have decided to steal. Do you think people will simply part with their food at this stage of the crises? When one says I have decided I will steal if I need to, then they need to be rational and realize stealing means killing.
So, to feed you and possibly a family, you really will need to kill.
This brings me back to the tone my earlier posts. There will be better avenues to obtain food than stealing/killing. A decision to steal/kill will now make you the hunted. Any organized community will have to deal with this behavior in its territory ruthlessly. The catch-22 is if you do not steal/kill, you and possibly the family will starve to death. Do nothing-starve to death. Steal/kill-death is put off for a little longer. Death may be much more violent and excruciating than starving when caught. Third option-Find a community and try to get in. Fourth option-Be better prepared! If part of your preps is the mindset that you will take what you need if you need it bad enough, then you really aren't prepping.
All it takes is a quick talk with the grandparents or a look in the history books to see that for the majority of human civilization, people have lived on their own and made it; WITHOUT stealing.
THC- You didn't answer my question. Going by your logic, if someone takes your supplies by force, then you would say that's just the way it is. That's what you would do if you were starving, so then it is ok for someone to do it to you, right?
As far as your postulating that we are only happy and civil when we are comfortable. I disagree. For some, maybe, for everyone, no. I lived in NOLA before, during, and after Katrina. The few that were left stuck together, looked out for each other, and protected the neighborhoods. This occurred even when food and water was short.
Once again, I say that those that decide to loot and steal-even if to feed a family-will be the first to go. Whatever civilization is left will not tolerate brigandage.
Just look at the frontier in the 1700's. Life was precarious and in certain areas food and water were in short supply. Those that stole or looted, even to feed a family, were dealt with harshly.
Saying you would loot and steal to feed a family or yourself is naive. People tend to use an argument similar to that no one can watch their child starve without doing anything. These people haven't dug deeper. Possibly they aren't religious. If so, then my line of reasoning is useless. But, if one is, then one needs to take a deeper examination of the mitzvahs(commandments). There is no caveat to "Though Shalt Not Steal." It doesn't say, "but it's ok if you're hungry." You will still have to answer for the stealing. I'm only on this ball of dirt for a while. I have to spend eternity somewhere and I prefer cool weather.
Now, if my previous paragraph is useless to you, then maybe consider your thought to steal if necessary to feed you and possibly a family. You have decided to steal. Do you think people will simply part with their food at this stage of the crises? When one says I have decided I will steal if I need to, then they need to be rational and realize stealing means killing.
So, to feed you and possibly a family, you really will need to kill.
This brings me back to the tone my earlier posts. There will be better avenues to obtain food than stealing/killing. A decision to steal/kill will now make you the hunted. Any organized community will have to deal with this behavior in its territory ruthlessly. The catch-22 is if you do not steal/kill, you and possibly the family will starve to death. Do nothing-starve to death. Steal/kill-death is put off for a little longer. Death may be much more violent and excruciating than starving when caught. Third option-Find a community and try to get in. Fourth option-Be better prepared! If part of your preps is the mindset that you will take what you need if you need it bad enough, then you really aren't prepping.
All it takes is a quick talk with the grandparents or a look in the history books to see that for the majority of human civilization, people have lived on their own and made it; WITHOUT stealing.
I have prepared myself my home and my family very well. Look at what I said in my past posts; stealing (Killing, yes I undestand full well) is the LAST resort. The questions is "Would you" and my answer is "yes" if my preperation falls short and it becomes necessity to kill someone else; steal their food and water for my own survival; I will. I do not follow any prescribed Commandments or religion; I know what is right and worng; and choose to do one or the other and deal with the consequences; I believe not in a fiery "Hot" place below; nor a "air conditioned" light and happy place above; I will not go into my ideals any further here. It is a catch 22; don't steal the food and die; or steal the food and 50-50 you MAY; I'll take 50% chance to survive over 0% any ****ing day of the week.
Saying that I am not prepared because I am williong to admit my position on survival is just ignorant. I have prepared beyond 99% of the population has; part of that is asking these questions of yourself and knowing the answers as best you can before the SHTF so you can react without so much rumination slowing the mind. Stealing would be the last resort and one I have planned so well around it is essentially a moot point fo rme to consider as I have supplies for years if you take into account all of my growing knowledge/supplies and the fact that I know how to live off of the land without any of that growing supplies in the first place. But still if I NEED TO; I WILL.
I do not wish anyone harm; nor have I ever harmed anyone who didn't try to harm me or my family first. But when the world breaks down; I will do what I need to do to survive/.
I totally agree that communities are the way to go; I have built my own working community for my family; obviously that is the way I am going. But to say I would just watch my family die; I cannot, I don't care about what may come to me after this perceived existence when it comes to my family.
My point about when the comfort is gone; so is the niceness fo humaity was misunderstood. Right after the chaos happens; we are all going to be animals; pure evil animals; after a while things will start to settle and communities will begin to form. Obvously from my point of view/my preperations/skills I am one who will be leading a community; not trying to kill/steal from them.
So the whole "THou shalt not steal" even when hungry and faced with death...
I guess one could posit from that logic that "Thou shalt not kill" even when someone is trying to kill you?
So if I understand your literal interpretation of the commandments correctly per your "THou shalt not steal even when faced with death" argument; you would allow a man to kill you so you wouldn't be breaking a commandment in killing him?:confused:
If someone tries to steal from me; I'm not going to say "oh well, here you go"; I am going to defend mine and ours. But if they get the best of us; then I understand full well that is the way of life, honor and death. I accept that if I am willing to steal from others to survive; that I have to defend from others and potentially die, or kill in one of those scenarios; it's not pretty, or nice or fuzzy; it's just realism.
Glock17JHP
07-15-10, 21:01
THCDDM4,
Your understanding of spiritual matters leaves a lot to be desired. I was trying to let this stay on track, but you keep saying things that demand a reply.
You said: "I do not follow any prescribed Commandments or religion; I know what is right and worng..."
I submit that you do not know what is right and wrong (worng?) if you do not follow an established standard. This sounds like YOU are setting the standard, which makes you see yourself as your god.
You also said: "I guess one could posit from that logic that "Thou shalt not kill" even when someone is trying to kill you?"
This shows your lack of understanding of the Bible. The original word for 'KILL' in the Old Testament is more acurately translated 'MURDER' from the original manuscripts. You are thinking King James version here.
Please stay on the survival/stealing train of thought.
THC- Actually, the mitzvah says, "Thou Shalt Not Murder," not kill, in Hebrew. So, as a Jew, I feel fine if I had to kill someone to protect a life or prevent sexual assault. I've had to point a weapon 2X in my life where I really thought I was going to have to use it. In both situations I was nervous, but confident if I had shot someone, God would have ruled it justifiable.:cool:
Glock and 6933, I pm'd you both; as I want to get back to the original topic; and away from spirituality/religion/faith...
Oh and by the way; as the thread states it is a "philisophical discussion"; I belive that would encompass religion/faith/spirituality as it relates to survival in a SHTF situation would it not? The OP should correct me if I am wrong in this assertion...
OK, I'll bite...
I live in a housing tract. Houses only... as far as you could walk in a day. The properties average probably 75 X 150' in size. Gardens and the like (for food) are very rare, I know of none in the immediate area. This is an arrid desert-like area naturally, the only greenery depends on water brought here by technology, there are no wells, etc. I have food to last perhaps 6-8 weeks at best, and water enough to last perhaps 8-12 weeks.
So, let's say I'm at home, I run out of food eventually, and am running low on water, right?
If I am smart, I have been praying from the time the problem began. I believe in the power of prayer. During these first 5 weeks I have been thinking, observing and praying. As I see things, there would be 2 options: LEAVE or STAY.
If the outlook appears such that leaving would increase my family's chances for survival, I am going to leave. As far as where to go? That depends on a lot of things. I have family in Southern California, Northern California, Arizona, Texas and Missouri. The specifics going on would dictate where I might go. The family ties are strong, and other family is also prepared.
If it looks like it is a better idea to stay put, I will do that. If we run out of everything, then obviously we will die.
I can only think of 1 family (husband and wife) who might outlast us, and we are good friends and like-minded in our faith. We live next door to eachother. I honestly think we would be the last survivors here if everyone in this area stayed put.
Would I take from others? No. Why not? Because I don't think it would be safe or productive to do so. The only exception might be if a home nearby was vacant because the homeowners abandoned it. The only things I would take would be just enough to survive. If someone was still there? No, I won't take it from someone else who is still there. I would only take what someone else left behind, and even then I would only take what would help me survive.
So... long story short (too late, huh?)...
I might take what does not belong to me to survive, but only if it was abandoned.
Looks like you brought prayer/faith/religion/spirituality into the discussion, but you were pretty quick to scald me and want to get the thread back on track after I responded to others who were bringing it up directly questioning me (The orignal poster being one who questioned me about faith/religion/spirituality).
THC- For me, and many others, there is no way to take our religious beliefs out of the equation. These beliefs are the basis as to how I conduct my life and my self. Beliefs are not relative. They will be there regardless of the situation.
Countless acts of kindness that resulted in their own deaths have been recorded during the Holocaust. If people under these conditions didn't turn into animals, why should I? That's taking the easy way out.
THC- For me, and many others, there is no way to take our religious beliefs out of the equation. These beliefs are the basis as to how I conduct my life and my self. Beliefs are not relative. They will be there regardless of the situation.
Countless acts of kindness that resulted in their own deaths have been recorded during the Holocaust. If people under these conditions didn't turn into animals, why should I? That's taking the easy way out.
I agree; I am one of the "others" you speak of who cannot separate their spiritual convictions from any function in/of life.
I'm not familiar with the acts of kindness you are referring to; I'm sure there were brave men nd woman who saccrificed there lives for others; (As I would for my family) ; but were ther not acts of violence against eachother as well in the holocaust? Several Jewish bankers helped fund the holocaust?
Easy way or not (Thats a matter of interpretation again; really); all I can do is be honest with myself; and qualify it here.
I love my family so much and hold them in the highest regard, that I would trade my life, my soul, my body, my energy; my everything for them to be safe and survive. I have looked deep inside and that is how I ultimately feel; I don't care what anyone or anything thinks about that decision; I am the one who will deal with it, and I am very aware of the consequences of my actions. I choose, I deal with the decision and the consequencies of that decision.
I put in place a comprehensive plan to, hopefully, never have to come to that end, but if I do, I will do whatever it takes to keep my family alive and well.
THC- We exchanged a nice PM and then I see you post about Jewish bankers financing the Holocaust. I guess you like Mel Gibson films. Done here.
THC- We exchanged a nice PM and then I see you post about Jewish bankers financing the Holocaust. I guess you like Mel Gibson films. Done here.
No, I hate Mel Gibson and his films; not quite sure what that has to do with the few jewish bankers that provided credit to Hitler? Jewish bankers did provide funds that were utilized in the holocaust, they dropped there funding of it pretty quickly, but still the evidence is in the history books in black and white on the ledger books, just like wall street helped out in financing the halocaust as well, and then dropped funding pretty fast.
I wan't meaning this as a jab, just that there was more going on than acts of kindness and that is all.
I meant no disrespect, and I appologize if I offended you, or you took it as disrespect; I did not mean to do so.
Glock17JHP
07-16-10, 18:50
Looks like you brought prayer/faith/religion/spirituality into the discussion, but you were pretty quick to scald me and want to get the thread back on track after I responded to others who were bringing it up directly questioning me (The orignal poster being one who questioned me about faith/religion/spirituality).
I did not scald (scold?) you, I was simply being direct. I did bring faith/spirituality into this originally, I suppose... but am now trying to be sensative to those who want it back on track. I responded to your recent PM on the specific faith/spirituality aspect you are still stuck on PRIVATELY out of respect for those who would rather not have it here publicly. You should probably do the same so as not to irritate the majority. You can PM me again if you still have faith/spirituality issues, but realize I may not want to spend a lot of time/energy debating in circles. We don't agree, and I respect your right to a differing opinion. Consider what I have said just my opinion if it helps us get past it.
Glock17JHP
07-16-10, 18:54
THC- We exchanged a nice PM and then I see you post about Jewish bankers financing the Holocaust. I guess you like Mel Gibson films. Done here.
You are one of the ones making sense here, 6933... don't go away.
THCDDM4, you really need to let this go and get back on topic.
I love my family so much and hold them in the highest regard, that I would trade my life, my soul, my body, my energy; my everything for them to be safe and survive.
What I don't get is why you so strongly believe that stealing from other people is what you will need to do in order for your family to survive. The reality is your energy is probably better spent on tasks that do not involve stealing and getting yourself killed for being part of the problem. Once you get killed who is going to take care of your family?
All kinds of flaws with your thinking, IMO. Good people will be banding together to protect themselves from guys like you. Virtue in the eyes of your fellow man has real world survival benefits seperate from religious or philosophical views. That is why every society has taboos against the same types of things.
Glock17JHP
07-17-10, 12:41
BrianS, very well stated!!!
Societies are formed by thier religious and political views. This is why some societies are better (yes, I said better) than others. A quick look at the roots of a society will give an 'ah ha' moment to how that society functions and treats it's people.
So... how do you people feel about taking what has been abandoned by others?
I have no moral problem with scavenging. Where to draw the line between scavenging and looting/stealing is wherever you think a reasonable person no longer has an expectation for their abandoned property to be there, either because of length of abandonment or severity of whatever is going on.
What I don't get is why you so strongly believe that stealing from other people is what you will need to do in order for your family to survive. The reality is your energy is probably better spent on tasks that do not involve stealing and getting yourself killed for being part of the problem. Once you get killed who is going to take care of your family?
All kinds of flaws with your thinking, IMO. Good people will be banding together to protect themselves from guys like you. Virtue in the eyes of your fellow man has real world survival benefits seperate from religious or philosophical views. That is why every society has taboos against the same types of things.
I do not strongly belive that stealing will be a necessity. In fact I have planned (AS I have stated many times) very very very very very very well to not have to deal with that notion at all. I've planned for and plan on being one to head the rebuilding of communities. I am stating again as I have over and over... IF I had to; absolutely had to do so for survival (WHich I have set myslef up to not have to do so 99.99% without a doubt in my preperations) I would. I do not want to, I do not wish to, it will be incredibly hard and disgusting to do if it becomes a necessity; but if it is NECESSARY; I will do so.
I can't say it anymore; I have aplan in motion that poretty much negates even having to think about this; but I still thought abou tit, and if I HAVE TO; I WILL.
Take it easy guys, it was nice debating and talking wiht you, I am done here as it seems I am doing more harm than good.
Be well.
Mr. Goodtimes
07-19-10, 11:48
delete
ewells2420
10-05-10, 14:56
No one will stand between me and what I need. Its simply a matter of survival.
I do not strongly belive that stealing will be a necessity. In fact I have planned (AS I have stated many times) very very very very very very well to not have to deal with that notion at all. I've planned for and plan on being one to head the rebuilding of communities. I am stating again as I have over and over... IF I had to; absolutely had to do so for survival (WHich I have set myslef up to not have to do so 99.99% without a doubt in my preperations) I would. I do not want to, I do not wish to, it will be incredibly hard and disgusting to do if it becomes a necessity; but if it is NECESSARY; I will do so.
I can't say it anymore; I have aplan in motion that poretty much negates even having to think about this; but I still thought abou tit, and if I HAVE TO; I WILL.
Take it easy guys, it was nice debating and talking wiht you, I am done here as it seems I am doing more harm than good.
Be well.
One thing to be mindful of in your planning to NOT have to take from others is that others will most likely NOT be in the same boat. I'm almost more concerned with those who didn't plan ahead. I've got plenty for me and mine, not many people know about it... but I can imagine that if people DIDN'T see you out looking for resources, caught a hint of non flickering light in your windows at night, and noticed you're not losing weight like they are... they might get suspicious and want to find out "why" you aren't out trying to find supplies. I figure most of us on this site probably have the defense side covered a bit more than most. :D
Glock17JHP
10-05-10, 20:49
No one will stand between me and what I need. Its simply a matter of survival.
If what you need belongs to someone else, and they are still there... they will feel more strongly than you do (it is 'theirs'), and they will have the 'home' advantage...
kihnspiracy
10-06-10, 04:49
Sounds like a good way to get your head blown off. Taking from others. When I was a child that was called stealing.:confused:
The only way people will get through TEOTWAWKI is, in my opinion, by creating small communities. The faster you can consolidate people, supplies, weapons, and arable land the better chances each individual in your group will have to survive the long haul. There is a reason our society has developed the way it has. Villages made individuals safer from random raiders before cities and police came about, and they will do so again if they must.
Running around the countryside like Rambo and taking what you need to survive might sound romantic or badass, but it is not a realistic means to do so.
ewells2420
10-06-10, 11:38
The only way people will get through TEOTWAWKI is, in my opinion, by creating small communities. The faster you can consolidate people, supplies, weapons, and arable land the better chances each individual in your group will have to survive the long haul. There is a reason our society has developed the way it has. Villages made individuals safer from random raiders before cities and police came about, and they will do so again if they must.
Running around the countryside like Rambo and taking what you need to survive might sound romantic or badass, but it is not a realistic means to do so.
comon man wtf, let me live out my fantasy as rambo lol.
A couple of thoughts.
-I try to plan so I won't have to make a decision to steal to feed my family.
-I also hope that my preparations are adequate but I know they will not be.
-I probably will be too busy defending what I have as well as planting, harvesting, hunting, fishing and ranching to be stealing.
-There are only a few cases where I could possibly see myself stealing from others. First, it would have to start with my children starving. Given my preparations that means I failed to protect what I had prepared. Which is a good possibility with the exception that I don't see why I would still be alive at that point. Or that other circumstances lead to the point that I could no longer plant, harvest, hunt, ranch, fish etc. And I could not barter any of my other supplies/skills to feed my family. How that would happen, again I cannot see short of things were taken from me. At that point, I would not be able to steal at the end of a gun because I obviously wouldn't have a gun left.
-I do agree that things left abandoned would be fair game for salvage including gas from cars no longer running, abandoned homes, etc.
-What scares me most are hoards from local cities.
-Forming communities to share resources and for the common defense is the basis of society and will still be required for most to survive. Personally, if SHTF/end of the world stuff happens one of my best friends knows to expect me and my family in a couple of days. If I think it will be temporary (couple of weeks or shorter). I will stay home and hole up.
-I will help who I can, when I can.
-Self defense is not murder. Stealing food from someone else forcing them to starve to death is.
-God's law is still supreme even when man's is gone. And ultimately He is in charge.
-My first and fore most responsibility is to serve Him and make sure my children, my wife and myself are with Him in the next life.
Glock17JHP
11-05-10, 13:25
Very well said, my friend!!!
1776 Patriot
11-11-10, 11:40
After reading pretty much all the posts from beginning to end, i've come to some conclusions. First one being how fast some people are willing to kill and take from others because they failed to prepare for a SHTF senario. I say good luck with that as most people not starving a few weeks or so after a SHTF event have most likely prepared and are well prepped for defensive ops.
You can bet that i've taking the time(and in fact always planning) for the worst case to happen and therefore prepared for looters, zombies(lol) and maybe even a gang of thugs from some not to distant city. It never surpises me to see guys thinking that they'll just 'go out and take' what they need which was the original topic from the OP.
As a former army ranger I can tell you that you'll be best served preparing for the 'unthinkable' now, and leave others alone as you won't be doing your familys any good when you don't come back after your first attempt at 'taking' what you'll need.
I on the other hand have stepped up my preps recently as I feel there are a lot of things happening quickly as of late, and nothing good can come out of it. Nothing wrong going out this week and picking up a few more bags of rice and beans. Might even keep you going that few extra weeks as opposed to running out of food and having to do something you'll probably regret. Lots of good posts here, some a little disturbing and a few right on target. Keep prepping my friends.
Steve
Glock17JHP
11-11-10, 13:32
Well said... I agree...
Work with a few neighbors and family members NOW and you seriously minimize the "cannibalism" later. :big_boss:
RogerinTPA
11-14-10, 14:49
After reading pretty much all the posts from beginning to end, i've come to some conclusions. First one being how fast some people are willing to kill and take from others because they failed to prepare for a SHTF senario. I say good luck with that as most people not starving a few weeks or so after a SHTF event have most likely prepared and are well prepped for defensive ops.
You can bet that i've taking the time(and in fact always planning) for the worst case to happen and therefore prepared for looters, zombies(lol) and maybe even a gang of thugs from some not to distant city. It never surpises me to see guys thinking that they'll just 'go out and take' what they need which was the original topic from the OP.
As a former army ranger I can tell you that you'll be best served preparing for the 'unthinkable' now, and leave others alone as you won't be doing your familys any good when you don't come back after your first attempt at 'taking' what you'll need.
I on the other hand have stepped up my preps recently as I feel there are a lot of things happening quickly as of late, and nothing good can come out of it. Nothing wrong going out this week and picking up a few more bags of rice and beans. Might even keep you going that few extra weeks as opposed to running out of food and having to do something you'll probably regret. Lots of good posts here, some a little disturbing and a few right on target. Keep prepping my friends.
Steve
Agreed, wholeheartedly with this statement. Most folks know that roaming intruders will be shot dead by those of us that have prepared. I'd think twice before stealing anyone's supplies or livestock.
Glock17JHP
11-14-10, 20:01
Amen to the last 2 posts...
Also, be wise when considering WHO you share your plan/preparations with.
You don't want the 'non-planners' looking to ambush you and take your stuff!!!
1776 Patriot
11-15-10, 09:35
Amen to the last 2 posts...
Also, be wise when considering WHO you share your plan/preparations with.
I couldn't agree more. I think most people agree that 'alliances' will have to be made, but doing so will make you vulnerable to those who may 'take advantage' of your taking the time and expense of planning ahead. Again, it behooves everyone to start thinking about who you may or may not allow into your 'circle of trust'.
I really think that if the SHTF, most people will show sides of themselves we haven't seen and that may not bode well for you or your familys safety. It's not going to be easy, but most "experts" generally agree that you'll be much better off with a small 'force' of people who know how to use different weapons and preferably
some training. Ex military will be a big plus also and you would be wise to use them as a basis for the groups protection. I have already been 'voted' as our 'go to guy' and I take that responsibility very seriously. Hope this helps.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-15-10, 11:48
If my the lives of my family are at risk I will stop at nothing to save them. If my family is starving and I can't find food anywhere and no one is willing to share then I would have no problem taking it by force. But, that means I better put my defenses up or risk losing what I own to people in the same situation.
So if a mother, with two small children, that has lost her husband due to brigandage, has just enough food for her children, has a pistol and refuses to give up the food, you'd shoot her, leave the children to die, and take the food?
So if a mother, with two small children, that has lost her husband due to brigandage, has just enough food for her children, has a pistol and refuses to give up the food, you'd shoot her, leave the children to die, and take the food?
It's easy to say you'd never do something like that while you're getting 3 hots and a cot. But when you put people in those kind of situations, they choose survival in the overwhelming majority.
Please prepare now, if at all possible. Food ,ammo, med supplies,...ETC.!. The list could go on for a whole page. Those that will attempt to take from us, the "have-nots" as i call them,(no one in our discussion group) out number us 100 to 1 allready. If you have the means to prepare now,due so without further delay. Remember the adage from WW2, Loose lips sink ships. This should apply to letting on to others about your supplies. No one can cover every senario that will occur in the future, but if we put our mind and ability to it now we may survive what looks like a terrible time in our countries future.
I disagree. While in NOLA after Katrina, I had limited food, yet I chose to share some of it with those that needed it. Also, there are a multitude of examples of those in ghettos and concentration camps sharing their meager resources during WWII. I have also read accounts of sharing among the people in Stalin's gulags. I believe your personal view is coloring your view of others. Just because you would steal from a mother doesn't mean others would.
Glock17JHP
11-16-10, 20:21
Agree, 6933...
If you go out with the intention to take from others by force... remember, they will have the advantage because they are on their turf and will be familiar with it. You are likely to die.
I think low profile will be the ticket. There are only about 4 homes on my street I would trust, and 3 are heavily armed and have lots of supplies. Our next door neighbor is one of them, and is a Sheriff Search & Rescue guy. He is very resourceful... more than me... and I am creative and think well 'out of the box'. Our buddy down the street a few houses is someone you would not want to mess with... at all... period. We would work together, we have in the past.
Oh, and don't think about trying to take anything from us by force or threat... really...
My son needs daily medication or he will deteriorate and die. The stuff is to expensive for us to stockpile. I would do anything I could, in a moral way, to ensure his survival. I would take from a pharmacy and leave a note or hopefully return after order is restored to justly compensate only as a last option. Food and other supplies we have and I would trade, barter and band with others.
I would defend what is ours without hesitation.
An ugly situation to say the least.
Glock17JHP
11-18-10, 00:06
I honestly think the pharmacy would give you enough to get by in such a situation... even if you couldn't pay. We went through a similar situation with Walgreens, and they were willing to give a small amount to us FREE. It might be different in an actual ARMAGEDDON situation that lasts longer than a few weeks or a month, but if it gets that bad we will all be in a world of hurt... really!!!
1776 Patriot
11-18-10, 09:07
It might be different in an actual ARMAGEDDON situation that lasts longer than a few weeks or a month, but if it gets that bad we will all be in a world of hurt... really!!!
I agree. The only thing we can do is plan for the worst and hope it doesn't last long. My wife takes meds that won't be readily available in a SHTF situation but can probably live without. Lots of people won't be so lucky, including some of my other siblings. I guess the golden horde will believe the government will step up to our rescue and have all these meds available within days, lol. :sarcastic:
Steve
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