View Full Version : What's the deal w/ stocking up on Lowers???
Razorhunter
04-21-07, 21:52
Guys,
I keep hearing about people stocking up on lowers time and time again, as if they are preparing for another Assault Weapons Ban.
I have been told by a number of people, that this will do NO GOOD, if another AWB is put into affect.
I assume that most guys are trying to stock up on lowers in order to be able to do whatever they want to with them, AFTER the next AWB. In other words, they will have a bunch of lowers lying around, that could be built up into PRE BAN weapons, EVEN AFTER the next AWB.
NOW,
I have been told by a number of guys/dealers/friends/etc, that this is NOT possible, as when you buy a lower, it MUST be built up into a complete rifle in order to be a legit PRE BAN weapon (meaning registered with a matching upper), and then I was also told that the Lowers do NOT have the FET (Federal Exise Tax) paid on them, until you match them with an upper.
SO, I have a ton of guys saying that I can stock up on uppers, and I will have the option of building up Pre Ban rifles AFTER the next AWB, and then I've got another ton of guys saying that stocking up on lowers in order to prepare for the next AWB will be USELESS, and will do me NO GOOD after the next AWB.
Can someone PLEASE clear things up for me here???
I need the truth...
I'm not sure either.
I'd think money would be better spent on ammo, magazines, training, or financial support to groups like NRA-ILA, GOA, or if you have a state rifle association or citizen's defense league.
I'm in the minority, I'll bet.
Razorhunter
04-21-07, 22:25
Yeah, I agree.
Not sure HOW we should go about it, but I know one thing. The ANTIS are spending a LOT more $$ on the gun battle, then WE are...
I for one wish I could afford to do it. I think it's a better investment than buying stocks or bonds.
How exactly could anyone prove you built your rifle after the ban?
The Lower is the "weapon" and it would be preban and you could prove it based on the serial #
black label society
04-21-07, 23:08
first off when you buy just a lower.....the ffl doing your background to the state police tells them it is a complete rifle.......as in........223 caliber long rifle..sn# blah blah blah.. and if not then sorry.. mine does it that way. and 100 bucks for a stripped lower is nothing. especially when after the ban it goes way up:D
Razorhunter
04-21-07, 23:34
Well what I have been hearing is something to this affect:
When you buy a lower only, and DO NOT put it with an upper as a comlete rifle, the Federal Exise Tax is not paid on it, and it is still NOT considered a complete rifle.
I THINK that is what these guys were saying.
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I guess I'm looking for someone who knows FOR SURE that buying a lower before the ban, will allow you to build a Pre Ban rifle AFTER the ban?
Anyone got SOLID, FIRM confirmation?? Every time I've asked this question, no one has really KNOWN FOR SURE. I'm not accusing anyone here of not knowing what they are talking about, but I would like to get to the bottom of this, once and for all.....
Well what I have been hearing is something to this affect:
When you buy a lower only, and DO NOT put it with an upper as a comlete rifle, the Federal Exise Tax is not paid on it, and it is still NOT considered a complete rifle.
I THINK that is what these guys were saying.
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I guess I'm looking for someone who knows FOR SURE that buying a lower before the ban, will allow you to build a Pre Ban rifle AFTER the ban?
Anyone got SOLID, FIRM confirmation?? Every time I've asked this question, no one has really KNOWN FOR SURE. I'm not accusing anyone here of not knowing what they are talking about, but I would like to get to the bottom of this, once and for all.....
You can't know anything for sure until you see specific legislation and what it says.
You can't know anything for sure until you see specific legislation and what it says.
Yep, only the final version of legislation that becomes the law, will matter. Until then it's all speculation.
The guys hoarding 20-30 are silly to me and just driving up prices. But that's their prerogative I suppose. Unless a new ban says "no new production, existing stuff grandfathered", I don't think they'll come out ahead (legally - could be a booming black market though?).
I don't consider putting 2-3 back for later builds really stocking up or hoarding though.
Razorhunter
04-22-07, 00:45
Guys,
I realize legislation can change, and I guess I should have mentioned, that I'm speaking AS IF the next AWB is exactly like the last one...
Still looking for a concrete answer....
The way the last ban was worded, you could not build a stripped lower into a complete rifle with the "evil" features.
But who is going to know? I have never heard of a single case where this was prosecuted in the ten years of the last ban.
Yup the lower is the only thing registered, you can have one lower and 100 uppers that you use with it. The only weay they would know if you put stuff on it POSTban is if you said "hey look at my new whatchamagiit I just put on" or for someone to throw you under the bus.
As long as that lower is registered ahead of time its good to go. I believe I did read that the Evil Witch from NY is trying to get lowers, uppers,and everything else banned in her HR1022 wet dream. If she wants guns banned so much she needs to get rid of her armed guards.
Well what I have been hearing is something to this affect:
When you buy a lower only, and DO NOT put it with an upper as a comlete rifle, the Federal Exise Tax is not paid on it, and it is still NOT considered a complete rifle.
I THINK that is what these guys were saying.
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I guess I'm looking for someone who knows FOR SURE that buying a lower before the ban, will allow you to build a Pre Ban rifle AFTER the ban?
Anyone got SOLID, FIRM confirmation?? Every time I've asked this question, no one has really KNOWN FOR SURE. I'm not accusing anyone here of not knowing what they are talking about, but I would like to get to the bottom of this, once and for all.....
No, you are backwards engineering the whole "it's cheaper to build" theory. You can put a lower and an upper together for less than a complete rifle because on a complete rifle the FET is paid by the manufacturer and passed onto you the consumer.
When you attach an upper to a lower yourself, it's never paid. FET is never paid on a complete rifle in that case.
They haven't set the rules on this ban and how you will or won't be allowed to build onto existing lowers. I can tell you that with the last ban, if a receiver wasn't a rifle, it couldn't be sold as pre-ban and be reconfigured at will. It had to be a RIFLE, a COMPLETE Rifle at the time of the ban to be considered pre-ban. Yes, the receiver is the weapon but it sure as hell is not a complete rifle.
Lower equals Weapon
Lower does not equal Rifle
Rifle before ban equals Pre Ban
Rifle after ban equals Post Ban
It's not up to them to prove you didn't have a rifle. It's up to you to prove you COULD have had a complete rifle.
If at the time of question, you have no money because you foolishly bought 15 lowers and only had 2 uppers, they know you only had two complete rifles- there's no other way around it. You pick 2 lowers to consider as preban and the rest were not complete rifles and are therefore by default pre ban receivers never built into preban guns and didn't count the same.
It's up to you to show you are in the right.
I don't take a suppressed SBR to the range and tell the owner I dare him to try and prove if I do or don't have two stamps. I show him the two stamps. If he asks to see them I show them. It's that simple. But, it's my burden to prove or show that I'm in the right- not theirs.
We aren't talking "crimes" per se. There's no crime against having 13 preban receivers that weren't complete rifles. So, the whole "innocent until proven guilty" you may want to throw at me right now doesn't apply. Noone is being charged with having too many receivers. It is when you want to sell them or build them that you have to show you went through the correct steps.
And all that aside, anyone thinking they need 15 receivers before a ban is stupid. They need to work to keep the ban from happening and even if it does, you'd be MUCH better off with ammunition and training and buying other things like a few more pistols or uppers. How about instead of $1500 in CHEAP stripped lowers, you buy a nice reloader and components to load your own ammo. Then you buy two lowers and one of CDNN's M16 upper kits for $400 for a retro approach. The other you could put a basic stag upper on.
Or, take the $1500 and buy 5 stripped lowers. Register them all as SBRs for $1000. Come up with a nice company name and form an LLC. Stamp your LLC on the front of the magwell.
Now you have 5 NFA weapons you can sell or do whatever you want with whenever you want.
When you attach an upper to a lower yourself, it's never paid. FET is never paid on a complete rifle in that case.
Thank you! I don't know why it took someone so long to say this.
Robb Jensen
04-22-07, 07:31
Buying up all the lowers/mags you can in fear of a new ban is assuming that any new legislation will have a grandfather clause. Last time there was only a grandfather clause because they couldn't pass it otherwise.
To date there has not been any legistlation in the US that has required outright forfeiture of firearms. There is various versions of registration (NFA items) and items that can no longer be purchased new ('86 import ban), but nothing that has required anyone to give up anything.
I believe that we'll see stages. The AWB was supposed to be stage I, which is banning manufacture and selling while grandfathering in existing items. The next stage will be registration, such that ALL existing firarms of a certain type will have to be registered, and the final stage is confiscation.
Federal gun control legislation needs to pass the House (done deal with today's demoCrat majority), Senate (not so much a done deal, but for argument's sake a slim possibility), and then the POTUS.
Fast forward to 2008. Hillary / Obama take over W's and Dick's offices. Do they also retain the House? Probably. Do they get a larger majority in the Senate? Unlikely, but possible. They are playing it smart, even in the wake of the Virginia Tech situation damascus peLosi and harry the body rEid are holding the anit-gun bills at bay. Like snakes in the grass, they are lying in wait.
Frankly, 80% lowers might not be a bad idea, for a variety of reasons.
I believe that we'll see stages. The AWB was supposed to be stage I, which is banning manufacture and selling while grandfathering in existing items. The next stage will be registration, such that ALL existing firarms of a certain type will have to be registered, and the final stage is confiscation.
That seems to be the general plan from what I can see as well.
Paul- In the last AWB, there was nothing that I saw that explained what "assembled" meant. For example, is putting an upper on it assembled? Is dropping in a LPK assembled? Does completing the build, then stripping it back down again to save space, or to relocate parts assembled? The lower receiver is the actual weapon according to the law, so assembly or stripped shouldn't matter.
If you are concerned, and its really an issue, I would suggest buying the lowers, along with a handful of LPKs.
ADCO, Bravo Company, or G&R Tactical would all be solid choices in helping you out with this if you go the LPK route, and I believe they all sell the lowers as well.
Stick- the lower receiver is the registered component of a weapon and is considered a weapon for registration purposes but it is not considered a complete weapon for most other purposes.
A long time ago, I told the USPS personnel I was shipping a lower. They would NOT allow a weapon to be shipped despite the real rules. But when I cut open the box and they saw that although it might be a registered weapon it could not do anyone harm as it was configured- not a complete weapon and it was shipped.
When you buyer a stripped lower, it is registered as a rifle. The IRS does not become interested in collecting FET UNTIL it is a complete weapon (in their eyes). If your a consumer and the weapon is for PERSONAL use, then no FET is to be paid.
Even if an FFL dealer builds an AR for PERSONAL use, no FET is paid either (or they are covered by the 50 build rule).
So let's pretend that you buy a stripped lower on April 1. On May 1, an AWB is passed stating that all weapons built before May 1 are grandfathered in and you can do whatever you want with them. It would be VERY hard to prove as to whether that lower came to you as a stripped lower or a complete weapon.
The AWB that we are now looking at doesn't have the above acception in it, so buying lowers won't save you. I guess one way to look at it though, is if this one doesn't pass (which I don't think it will) another "softer" one might come along and all those stripped lowers might just pay off for someone.
Having read some of the pending AWB (no expert though), I don't think it will go through for several reasons. First, it would take every duck/turkey/deer/upland bird favorite weapon (auto loading shotgun). Second, It would take another favorite weapon, the Ruger 10/22 (or any auto loading .22). Third, since just about NO auto loading weapon would be legal to own anymore, do we REALLY see a door to door confiscation taking place?
I may have read into the AWB a little to much, but that is kind of how it was laid out in recent NRA magazine.
C4
The AWB that we are now looking at doesn't have the above exception in it, so buying lowers won't save you. I guess one way to look at it though, is if this one doesn't pass (which I don't think it will) another "softer" one might come along and all those stripped lowers might just pay off for someone.
Having read some of the pending AWB (no expert though), I don't think it will go through for several reasons. First, it would take every duck/turkey/deer/upland bird favorite weapon (auto loading shotgun). Second, It would take another favorite weapon, the Ruger 10/22 (or any auto loading .22). Third, since just about NO auto loading weapon would be legal to own anymore, do we REALLY see a door to door confiscation taking place?
I think you're right. It won't pass, and I don't think "They" expect it to pass. They would like that, of course, but don't expect it. It's how they baby-step us to death.
Ask for a mile, guilt-trip about a "compromise", take a quarter mile, and wait for the next tragedy to capitalize upon. Just like a car that's overpriced on the dealer's lot, then they act like it's a real favor to come down to market value.
It's why we have to make sure we show that no "compromise" (as if they even understood the word) is acceptable on this issue.
Stick- the lower receiver is the registered component of a weapon and is considered a weapon for registration purposes but it is not considered a complete weapon for most other purposes.
A long time ago, I told the USPS personnel I was shipping a lower. They would NOT allow a weapon to be shipped despite the real rules. But when I cut open the box and they saw that although it might be a registered weapon it could not do anyone harm as it was configured- not a complete weapon and it was shipped.
I wouldn't use the USPS as an example of anything.... :D
Exactly but the humans there at least know the difference between a registered weapon part and a whole gun. That's all I was trying to point out. They made a good fat analogy possible.
Razorhunter
04-22-07, 20:46
Well guys,
Thanks for all the replies. Not surprisingly, I'm still as confused as before, and I cannot tell if the guys who stocked up on lowers before the 94 ban, were LEGAL when they built up a bunch of Pre Ban rifles AFTER the ban, OR if they were ILLEGAL in doing so??? Guess it's kinda hard to decipher, with everything that's been said. Lots of speculation and different opinions...
BTW,
What does "LPK" stand for???? Lower Parts Kit perhaps???
Robb Jensen
04-22-07, 20:51
What does "LPK" stand for???? Lower Parts Kit perhaps???
Exactly.
lower parts kit. Who besides yourself would know what you did to your lower the day before the ban was put in place? It is still not possible to know what a ban would say until it was a done deal. ;)
Billy
Well guys,
Thanks for all the replies. Not surprisingly, I'm still as confused as before, and I cannot tell if the guys who stocked up on lowers before the 94 ban, were LEGAL when they built up a bunch of Pre Ban rifles AFTER the ban, OR if they were ILLEGAL in doing so??? Guess it's kinda hard to decipher, with everything that's been said. Lots of speculation and different opinions...
BTW,
What does "LPK" stand for???? Lower Parts Kit perhaps???
Yep, LPK = lower parts kit.
Technically, they were illegal; realistically, it would have been very difficult to prove it, and I don't think there were ever any cases of arrests or prosecution regarding it.
Personally, I would (and plan to) buy enough to complete the different lower builds I have planned. If you plan to build 20 ARs, that's great, more power to you. But I think that buying a crapload of lowers as an investment could easily mean you have a bunch of $100 paperweights (at best). I wouldn't hesitate to use ones I've got as needed, but I'm never going to build up 15-20 ARs.
Being as modular as they are, I think wear parts and mags are a better thing to cache. It wouldn't hurt to have 1 or 2 extra lowers, but who's ever worn a lower out? IF, and it's a long shot, ARs were totally banned for new manufacture and the parts market dried up, it wouldn't be lowers we were all hurting for...
lower parts kit. Who besides yourself would know what you did to your lower the day before the ban was put in place? It is still not possible to know what a ban would say until it was a done deal. ;)
Billy
Like I said- if you go to sell lowers only a year after the ban when people want to pay $500 each and you only have two uppers at home, chances are you didn't have 15 complete rifles.
I think you're right. It won't pass, and I don't think "They" expect it to pass. They would like that, of course, but don't expect it. It's how they baby-step us to death.
Ask for a mile, guilt-trip about a "compromise", take a quarter mile, and wait for the next tragedy to capitalize upon. Just like a car that's overpriced on the dealer's lot, then they act like it's a real favor to come down to market value.
It's why we have to make sure we show that no "compromise" (as if they even understood the word) is acceptable on this issue.
I think they will nickle and dime us to death by banning small parts here and there.
I also believe that it is basically a political "stunt" so that they can show the voters in their State that they are anti gun and is why/how they got elected in the first place.
C4
Submariner
04-23-07, 08:13
Even if an FFL dealer builds an AR for PERSONAL use, no FET is paid either (or they are covered by the 50 build rule).
C4
What is the fifty build rule?
What is the fifty build rule?
07's can build 50 weapons a year without paying ANY FET on them.
C4
ar_mcadams
04-24-07, 23:03
in the last ban if you had a stripped lower purchased before the ban and built it into a rifle before the ban then it was considered a preban but if you didnt build it into a complete rifle before the ban then it was a post pan.
Could those buying up tons of lowers could be setting themselves up to get bit?
Purchase of a large amount of stripped receivers over a short period of time creates a paper trail indicative of someone dealing in firearms. This would require that they be an FFL holder.
Sounds like an invitation for search warrants of all property you control.
Could those buying up tons of lowers could be setting themselves up to get bit?
Purchase of a large amount of stripped receivers over a short period of time creates a paper trail indicative of someone dealing in firearms. This would require that they be an FFL holder.
Sounds like an invitation for search warrants of all property you control.
No. LEGALLY buying lowers does NOT make you an FFL nor do you need to a license. It simply means that you like AR's.
C4
Could those buying up tons of lowers could be setting themselves up to get bit?
I would think if only they tried to speculate like many did with pre-ban magazines. Everyone was betting on the ban being re-newed and instead it actually sunsetted after 10yrs.
But then it could always go the other direction and the Libs could stay in control for many years.
Personally I think you would be better off putting your money in your mattress and saving it for a rainy day. :)
Could those buying up tons of lowers could be setting themselves up to get bit?
Purchase of a large amount of stripped receivers over a short period of time creates a paper trail indicative of someone dealing in firearms. This would require that they be an FFL holder.
Sounds like an invitation for search warrants of all property you control.
Financially yes
No, unless you are buying them as a FFL, it is just a purchase. Are you a car dealer if you buy three cars in a weekend? How about if you sell three cars in a week end? What will get you in trouble is when you sell them you make a profit and if someone is watching you, you will need to note it on your taxes. Remember Capone was nailed on tax evasion.
Only if you are doing other stuff.
Could those buying up tons of lowers could be setting themselves up to get bit?
Purchase of a large amount of stripped receivers over a short period of time creates a paper trail indicative of someone dealing in firearms. This would require that they be an FFL holder.
Sounds like an invitation for search warrants of all property you control.
:rolleyes:
Guys,
I keep hearing about people stocking up on lowers time and time again, as if they are preparing for another Assault Weapons Ban.
I have been told by a number of people, that this will do NO GOOD, if another AWB is put into affect.
I assume that most guys are trying to stock up on lowers in order to be able to do whatever they want to with them, AFTER the next AWB. In other words, they will have a bunch of lowers lying around, that could be built up into PRE BAN weapons, EVEN AFTER the next AWB.
NOW,
I have been told by a number of guys/dealers/friends/etc, that this is NOT possible, as when you buy a lower, it MUST be built up into a complete rifle in order to be a legit PRE BAN weapon (meaning registered with a matching upper), and then I was also told that the Lowers do NOT have the FET (Federal Exise Tax) paid on them, until you match them with an upper.
SO, I have a ton of guys saying that I can stock up on uppers, and I will have the option of building up Pre Ban rifles AFTER the next AWB, and then I've got another ton of guys saying that stocking up on lowers in order to prepare for the next AWB will be USELESS, and will do me NO GOOD after the next AWB.
Can someone PLEASE clear things up for me here???
I need the truth...
Many of us at work are doing this for this reason. We get lowers now to build a complete rifle now in case another ban is legislated. This insures we are paying reasonable prices now since after a ban prices will skyrocket for these parts & no FET if I understand this correctly. And that's if they'll even be available depending on the final wording of any ban should it pass. It may sound like a reach, but even with another ban there is a high percentage chance that the alreday built or purchased banned rifles are gonna be grandfathered. So the more the better in my opinion.
I pity the soul who doesn't buy what he/she wants in a right now. With some these disillusioned haters of all things that go bang in congress now, you never know what they will do to deny we responsible & law abiding good citizens of the "right" to own an AR. So, I'm buying what I can now. If no ban passes, then I'll have that many more toys to enjoy at the range & at work for keeping the peace or stopping the threat that opposes it;)
Gunny- you are operating under the assumption that when it was first mentioned that one should "stock up" that it was for their own use. It wasn't. Someone suggested buying over a dozen as an investment and that's what we've been arguing- whether or not they will allow those lowers to be resold and so far, the provisions say no.
My error. I must have missed that portion of the discussion. The opinion about no joy on resale is a fair assumption. Personally, I don't buy to sell, but I don't argue with those that do who are not in this as a business. It seems that many private owners would sell these gems to make a killing off of those who didn't purchase prior to a ban.
Rock-N-Ruin
05-02-07, 01:47
deleted blindness reasons..
I have spoken to a few of the smaller manufacurers who have told me they are stocking up on complete rifles just incase.
Financially yes
No, unless you are buying them as a FFL, it is just a purchase. Are you a car dealer if you buy three cars in a weekend? How about if you sell three cars in a week end? What will get you in trouble is when you sell them you make a profit and if someone is watching you, you will need to note it on your taxes. Remember Capone was nailed on tax evasion.
Only if you are doing other stuff.I don't recall the exact number set by the feds, but if you sell more than a certain number of guns within a specified time period you're legally considered to be "dealing in firearms" and the courts have upheld that an FFL is required.
BATFE has popped more than one non-FFL holder for setting up at a different gun show every weekend with a table full of firearms. There are numerous horror stories over the years of non-FFL retirees, disabled vets, etc. working the gun show circuit as a hobby or for extra pocket cash who ended up getting nailed and every firearm they own confiscated. Simply offering more than a certain number for sale within the prescribed time frame is considered evidence of unlicensed dealing.
Just a heads up-I've been informed by dealers that purchase of more than a certain number of lowers at a time by a non-FFL holder requires BATFE notification. Not approval prior to the sale, but notification afterwards. That doesn't sound good.
As for the comparison with buying/selling cars, under most state's laws (including mine) it's basically the same situation. You're only allowed to sell a certain number within a prescribed time frame before a dealer's license is required.
I don't care to participate in any new AWBs.
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