Melonite on Storm Lake M&P barrel???

[nickdrak]

I am going to pick up a threaded/extended Storm Lake SS barrel for my M&P9, and I would like to have it sent off to have Melonite applied to blacken the barrel. Any potential issues?

Who would you all recommend to send it to for the Melonite?

Stay safe,
Nick

[Mjolnir]

Two come to mind. Flame Metals Processing is the source of S&W's meloniting process.

Flame Metals Processing
7317-T West Lake Street
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55426
Phone: (612) 929-7815
Toll Free: (800) 497-8462
Fax: 612-925-0572
Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (Salt Bath Nitriding)

Burlington Engineering, Inc.
220 W. Grove Avenue
Orange, California 92865-3204
Phone: (714) 921-4045
Fax: (714) 921-4029
Web Address: http://burlingtoneng.com/
E-mail: Info@BurlintonEng.com
Contact: Dave Corbell
“Melonite” (Ferritic Nitrocarburization processing)

There are several that are/were in the Detroit Metro Area (supporting the auto and other industries) as well.

[nickdrak]

Thanks!

[Titleist]

Let me know how this goes. I want a threaded barrel for my M&P Pro, but the bling factor is WAY too high on the storm lake barrels.

[sniperfrog]

Check with hefusa.net. They melonite benchrest barrels so they may do a pistol barrel. Price is $100. Probably anywhere will be expensive since they don't do things in small batches.

[Ohdoom]

I'd also like to know if you get this done. No way I could get over the stainless. Don't forget the pics!

[nickdrak]

*UPDATE*

I spoke with the companies listed in this thread so far.

*Flame Metals said the have a minimum charge of $225 for small orders with a 4-5 day turn-around time. The contact info listed above is no longer accurate. A good # for them is: (763) 428-2596

*HEFUSA said they have a minimum small batch charge of around $600:eek:

*Burlington Engineering, Inc. quoted me $125.00 and said they had about a 5 day turn-around, so at this point, they will get my business.

I have a local option that does anodizing and some other metal treatments, and will will stop by there to see if they are set up for Melonite. I will update with what they say after I speak with them....

[msr]

nickdrak, any update?

[cgcorrea]

*UPDATE*

I spoke with the companies listed in this thread so far.

*Flame Metals said the have a minimum charge of $225 for small orders with a 4-5 day turn-around time. The contact info listed above is no longer accurate. A good # for them is: (763) 428-2596

*HEFUSA said they have a minimum small batch charge of around $600:eek:

*Burlington Engineering, Inc. quoted me $125.00 and said they had about a 5 day turn-around, so at this point, they will get my business.

I have a local option that does anodizing and some other metal treatments, and will will stop by there to see if they are set up for Melonite. I will update with what they say after I speak with them....

Any uptates? Did everything work out ok? I ask because I'm interested in doing the same thing with a Storm Lake threaded barrel I am ordering for my M&P 45. Thanks.

[nickdrak]

Sorry guys, I did not end up getting the Storm Lake barrel to some reviews that claim that the accuracy gained with the S/L barrel was nominal at best.

I decided to wait for Jarvis to release their M&P match barrels before I jump.

[Rockfish Dave]

Speaking from personal expirience the Storm Lake Barrel made a significant improvement.

I shot the the new stock barrel in a new M&P that I had replaced the sear with the APEX kit & 'DPMS MECHANICAL RECOIL REDUCTION SYSTEM, next to the Storm Lake threaded barrel. Same lot of ammo both unsupported and supported.

The stock barrel magazine groups around the size of a silver dollar, the storm lake grouped in a single hole about the size of a quarter.

For me it's a measurable improvement.


I need to duplicate the test with photo's, as most don't believe that it can make that big of a difference.

I was surprised as I never considered myself to be a crack shot with a pistol... but I just kept shooting and little tufts of the target would drift down like confetti after each round...

[willowofwisp]

if this is for a standard 9 why nto just purchase the spec-ops barrel for 80$? its already melonited

[Rockfish Dave]

Speaking for myself. The barrel was an after thought. I was able to buy the handgun with 3 mags and tritium night sights for a great price. I started with the APEX kit and went a little nuts.

I had read the Storm Lake barrels are the same as the one's on the Pro model. I cannot recall where I read this so I'd take it as scuttlebut.

Overall I am very happy with this barrel (the first had fit issues (http://tacticalunderground.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17945)).

- Dave

[Lucky Strike]

if coating to get it black why not ionbond's coating? Has a nice looking flat black finish and makes things super easy to clean. I've got my BCG coated in it and after shooting a 2 day carbine course I was able to wipe the carbon off the bolt with a dry cotton patch each night.

[Alpha Sierra]

Melonite is not just a coloring. It is a gas nitriding heat treatment process.

I would not re-heat treat anything, let alone a pistol barrel, without knowing the exact alloy that it is made of AND its hardness beforehand.

Remember, the heat treater is not responsible if the barrel cracks or ruptures on you due to embrittlement. They just treated it like you told them to.

[crossgun]

There are really no dangers to the process if you use an experienced source. Heat treat and temper of the base materials are not really affected.

I have had two M&P barrels from Storm Lake done without any measurable difference in accuracy or performance. Numerous members here have had entire 1911s and other pistols done and the bench rest guys are starting to see the benefits as well in their rifle barrels.

I’m glad I did it and have no regrets. It’s an excellent finish!

[cgcorrea]

There are really no dangers to the process if you use an experienced source. Heat treat and temper of the base materials are not really affected.

I have had two M&P barrels from Storm Lake done without any measurable difference in accuracy or performance. Numerous members here have had entire 1911s and other pistols done and the bench rest guys are starting to see the benefits as well in their rifle barrels.

I’m glad I did it and have no regrets. It’s an excellent finish!

crossgun, Who did you have do the work on your Storm Lake Barrels? Thanks.

[Rockfish Dave]

I am about to show my ignorance so please be patient with me.

Is this a coating for only the exterior of the barrel or for the actual bore of the barrel too?

I ask because it states:


Melonite Processing: Melonite Q
Improved Wear Resistance
Improved Running Properties
Increased Fatigue and Rolling Fatigue Strengths
Heat Resistance
Black Color

Melonite Processing: Melonite QP
lncludes the properties of Melonite Q
Lower coefficient of Friction
Decreased surface roughness

Melonite Processing: Melonite QPQ
lncludes the properties of Melonite Q and QP
Low Light Reflection
Further Decreased Coefficient of Friction
Enhanced Corrosion Resistance (Not suitable for stainless) (http://burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html)

QP sounds ideal for the barrel.

I also am having a long distance bolt gun built up, and wonder what the application would be for it?

Could the entire action be treated, including the bolt, firing pin, etc?

Would the lugs be OK if treated?

[Mjolnir]

Yes, to all of your questions. The entire barrel is treated.

Ask Accuracy International's Stacey Blankenship about their barrels. I *assume* they treated the receiver as well. I would.

[cgcorrea]

Speaking for myself. The barrel was an after thought. I was able to buy the handgun with 3 mags and tritium night sights for a great price. I started with the APEX kit and went a little nuts.

I had read the Storm Lake barrels are the same as the one's on the Pro model. I cannot recall where I read this so I'd take it as scuttlebut.

Overall I am very happy with this barrel (the first had fit issues (http://tacticalunderground.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17945)).

- Dave

Rockfish Dave, How was the fit issue with your barrel resolved?

[Alpha Sierra]

I am about to show my ignorance so please be patient with me.

Is this a coating for only the exterior of the barrel or for the actual bore of the barrel too?
Melonite is NOT a coating. Period.

It is a steel heat treatment process. It affects the granular structure of the steel in complex ways.

[Rockfish Dave]

Melonite is NOT a coating. Period.

It is a steel heat treatment process. It affects the granular structure of the steel in complex ways.

You are correct. Poor choice of words.

I called the company linked in my earlier post.

They said that they heat the barrel to 1075 degrees F. They say just so long as your heat treat temp was atleast 20 degree's higher you will not lose your heat treat.

My next call was to Kreiger (sp?) to ask them about the heat treat on their barrels. He says that the blanks are sent for heat treatment out off premise. He also said that anything over 900 degrees would lose the "temper" I assume he is talking about the heat treat.

As attractive as it sounds I just don't feel like screwing up a perfectly good barrel...

The company said they do guns all the time though... the only catch is they parts must be fully disassembled.

- Dave

[Rockfish Dave]

Rockfish Dave, How was the fit issue with your barrel resolved?

They had a replacement barrel in the mail to me before I had sent mine back. Second barrel NO issues! In the linked article I cited where I bought my stuff from. They had everything in stock and at competitive prices.

I was pretty put out given that I paid a premium for a new barrel on a new gun (totally unneccessary). The manner and timeliness that they resolved the issue left me completely satisfied with the purchase, and the performance of the new barrel removed any buyers remorse I might have had.

- Dave

[Rockfish Dave]

Yes, to all of your questions. The entire barrel is treated.

Ask Accuracy International's Stacey Blankenship about their barrels. I *assume* they treated the receiver as well. I would.

Could you PM me the company contact information (if you have it of course).

I am very interested in the Melonite but don't want to ruin my first custom build. It would be interesting to hear what they say!

[cgcorrea]

They had a replacement barrel in the mail to me before I had sent mine back. Second barrel NO issues! In the linked article I cited where I bought my stuff from. They had everything in stock and at competitive prices.

I was pretty put out given that I paid a premium for a new barrel on a new gun (totally unneccessary). The manner and timeliness that they resolved the issue left me completely satisfied with the purchase, and the performance of the new barrel removed any buyers remorse I might have had.

- Dave

Awesome. Thanks.

[Alpha Sierra]

You are correct. Poor choice of words.

I called the company linked in my earlier post.

They said that they heat the barrel to 1075 degrees F. They say just so long as your heat treat temp was atleast 20 degree's higher you will not lose your heat treat.

My next call was to Kreiger (sp?) to ask them about the heat treat on their barrels. He says that the blanks are sent for heat treatment out off premise. He also said that anything over 900 degrees would lose the "temper" I assume he is talking about the heat treat.

As attractive as it sounds I just don't feel like screwing up a perfectly good barrel...

The company said they do guns all the time though... the only catch is they parts must be fully disassembled.

- Dave
"Heat treat" is a generic term for all thermal processes used to alter the mechanical properties of metals (not just steel).

There are three basic forms of heat treatment: hardening (self explanatory), annealing (softening), and tempering (reducing the brittleness created by hardening without losing hardness).

Inside of each of those major processes there are tons of subprocesses. Carburizing is exposure of heated steel to carbon rich media in order to increase the carbon content of a steel so that higher hardnesses can be achieved. Then the steel is reheated to an even higher temperature and quenched (rapidly cooled in a liquid, usually oil) to harden it. Now the steel is really hard and really brittle. So it goes though gentler heating and cooling cycles (stress reliving, tempering) in order to regain ductility while preserving most of its hardness.

Melonite is a specific form of carburizing using nitric-carburic salts to infuse a layer of carbon/nitrogen/oxygen into the steel. This layer is used to create an extremely hard case to a specified depth with a less hard core that retains more ductility.

There is WAAAAAYYYYY more to all this. But that is all the time I have to go into it now.

The biggest difference between Melonite and the heat treatments I deal with most of the time is that melonite is a ferritic process (steel is not heated enough to transition the grains structure from ferrite to austenite) while those I deal with are mostly austenitic.

[eternal24k]

For those prices I would go ionbond all the way

[Rockfish Dave]

SHOT Show Report: MMI-Trutec Salt-Bath Nitriding for Barrels (http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/shot-show-report-mmi-trutec-salt-bath-nitriding-for-barrels/)

Many of our readers know Joel Kendrick, one of America’s top mid-range shooters. Joel is a two-time IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year, and we have featured Joel’s match-winning 6×44 as one of our Guns of the Week. Joel now works with MMi-Trutec, specializing in the salt-bath nitriding process. This is a surface-hardening procedure for steel that creates a super-hard, low friction layer for the top 10-20 microns of the metal. Barrels treated with salt-bath-nitriding show much improved wear resistance and reduced friction.

For match rifles, varmint rifles, and hunting rifles, the most significant benefits of salt-bath nitriding are enhanced barrel life, and easier cleaning. Joel’s own F-Class rifle has a nitrided stainless barrel with over 5000 rounds — and it still holds 1/4 MOA at 100 yards. Other well-known shooters, such as John Whidden, have observed that nitrided barrels can shoot longer strings of fire between cleanings, with no reduction of accuracy. What is the cost of nitriding? As Joel explains in the video below, nitriding a single barrel costs $60.00, but there is a minimum first-time lot charge of $100.00. If you submit multiple barrels at the same time, the price per barrel can be reduced significantly. For more info, visit the MMI-Trutec website or contact Joel Kendrick by phone (704) 616-6442, or via email: joelkndrck [at] aol.com .


Is there a downside to nitriding? First, the nitriding process results in a BLACK matte or satin finish. If you like the natural silver finish of stainless steel, you shouldn’t nitride your barrel. Second, and most importantly, the salt-bath-nitriding process creates a surface so hard that you can NOT re-cut the chamber with normal reaming tools. Therefore, before nitriding, the barrel must be finished chambered. Basically the barrel should be fully finished, crowned, chambered and headspaced before nitriding. NOTE: MMi Trutec CAN mask the crown during nitriding so that the barrel can be re-crowned at a later time.

[eternal24k]

that picture looks like Hard Blue from Superior. The nitriding price looks good, how is regarding corrosion?

[DMR]

I debated between meloniting my Storm Lake barrel and having Robar NP3 it. I went with Robar. Once I sort out an issue I had I'll give an update.

[Mjolnir]

For those prices I would go ionbond all the way
W DLC is a coating; a thin film, high performance coating but Melonite/Tenifer/Tuftride is superior for wear resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance.

I have three W DLC coated 1911s from Ionbond. Great coating. Sigs are W DLC coated, too.

The "best" route for a custom build would be found by using a ferrous alloy (chromium steel), Melonite/Tuftride/Tenifer it and then coat the thing with W DLC or TiAlN - both are plasma assisted vapor deposition coatings.

So coating your Glock or HK slide with W DLC would be about as good as it currently gets since both are Tuftrided/Melonited/Tenifered.

[Mjolnir]

Could you PM me the company contact information (if you have it of course).

I am very interested in the Melonite but don't want to ruin my first custom build. It would be interesting to hear what they say!

Stacey Blankenship
Accuracy International of North America, Inc.
AINA Office: (540) 368-3108
Email: Stacey@accuracyinternational.us
www.accuracyinternational.com

[eternal24k]

W DLC is a coating; a thin film, high performance coating but Melonite/Tenifer/Tuftride is superior for wear resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance.

I have three W DLC coated 1911s from Ionbond. Great coating. Sigs are W DLC coated, too.

The "best" route for a custom build would be found by using a ferrous alloy (chromium steel), Melonite/Tuftride/Tenifer it and then coat the thing with W DLC or TiAlN - both are plasma assisted vapor deposition coatings.

So coating your Glock or HK slide with W DLC would be about as good as it currently gets since both are Tuftrided/Melonited/Tenifered.
Interesting you find melonite superior to ionbond in regards to wear resistance and "toughness", I have found the exact opposite with my Glocks finish compared to ionbond

[Rockfish Dave]

W DLC is a coating; a thin film, high performance coating but Melonite/Tenifer/Tuftride is superior for wear resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance.

I have three W DLC coated 1911s from Ionbond. Great coating. Sigs are W DLC coated, too.

The "best" route for a custom build would be found by using a ferrous alloy (chromium steel), Melonite/Tuftride/Tenifer it and then coat the thing with W DLC or TiAlN - both are plasma assisted vapor deposition coatings.

So coating your Glock or HK slide with W DLC would be about as good as it currently gets since both are Tuftrided/Melonited/Tenifered.


Great info, but my head is about to explode! So many options! So you are recommending the Melonite treatment then a secondary coating?

So are the Ionbond/DLC/TiAIN are for everything but the bore?

BTW: Thank you for the contact information.


Funny how when I started the custom build, it seemed so 'easy'. Once I began in earnest the options and choices multiplied... thanks again.

- Dave

[Alpha Sierra]

Guys, do all the amateur heat treatment recipes you like.

It's your steel. Not mine.

I work with this stuff every day and my barrels stay they way they came.

[Mjolnir]

Great info, but my head is about to explode! So many options! So you are recommending the Melonite treatment then a secondary coating?

So are the Ionbond/DLC/TiAIN are for everything but the bore?

BTW: Thank you for the contact information.


Funny how when I started the custom build, it seemed so 'easy'. Once I began in earnest the options and choices multiplied... thanks again.

- Dave
You don't have to follow up with a PVD coating but it's "the best" that I know of.

You don't want to do anthing to the bore; the Melonite QPQ process will take care of that.

[Mjolnir]

Interesting you find melonite superior to ionbond in regards to wear resistance and "toughness", I have found the exact opposite with my Glocks finish compared to ionbond

What you are experiencing is the polymer top coat wearing off of the Glock slide. Same with the H&K pistol slides. The Melonite treatment is a surface conversion coating. I have technical papers testing them and Melonite is superior.

[Rockfish Dave]

You don't have to follow up with a PVD coating but it's "the best" that I know of.

You don't want to do anthing to the bore; the Melonite QPQ process will take care of that.

Thanks, that is helpful. Sounds like some companies have the melonite process figured out for firearms but others don't seem to be up to the task. (I gather from the tone of some of the posts on this thread). BTW: If AI is using the process that is one hell of an endorsement. AI is the poster child for field reliable weapon systems.

I have a couple of guns that I would like to have Melonited. I was looking at Ionbond's samples and one had a dark earth color (http://www.ionbondguncoatings.com/samples.html). Is that the DLC or something else?

Ideally I'd like something other than black for my aluminum chassis rifle. A few hours in the sun would heat it up something fierce. I could always use it as a base coat of sorts for ceracoat (sp?).

- Dave

[Rockfish Dave]

I debated between meloniting my Storm Lake barrel and having Robar NP3 it. I went with Robar. Once I sort out an issue I had I'll give an update.

I look forward to hearing about your results.

- Dave

[eternal24k]

What you are experiencing is the polymer top coat wearing off of the Glock slide. Same with the H&K pistol slides. The Melonite treatment is a surface conversion coating. I have technical papers testing them and Melonite is superior.

Interesting, I realize that the black is not the melonite. But My 2nd gen Glock slide started rusting on the high wear points :mad:

I would love to see the techical papers, I often can only find melonite or ionbond vs the more common methods like chrome, but not eachother.

[eternal24k]

Thanks, that is helpful. Sounds like some companies have the melonite process figured out for firearms but others don't seem to be up to the task. (I gather from the tone of some of the posts on this thread). BTW: If AI is using the process that is one hell of an endorsement. AI is the poster child for field reliable weapon systems.

I have a couple of guns that I would like to have Melonited. I was looking at Ionbond's samples and one had a dark earth color. Is that the DLC or something else?

Ideally I'd like something other than black for my aluminum chassis rifle. A few hours in the sun would heat it up something fierce. I could always use it as a base coat of sorts for ceracoat (sp?).

- Dave

I do not think melonite can be applied to aluminum, and I know it is not recommended to use ionbond on alum either

[Rockfish Dave]

I do not think melonite can be applied to aluminum, and I know it is not recommended to use ionbond on alum either

Yes, again lazy typing on my part. I am thinking of the DLC PVC.


I found that they offer a PVC coating in flat dark earth color. (http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/sa-xd-xd-m-accessories/140675-new-pvd-coating-colors-ionbond-fde-flat-dark-earth-copper.html) If it is the same as DLC I will have the whole rifle's barreled action, bolt and small parts treated. If it is not the same as DLC then I'll have the bolt and small parts DLC coated, and the action and barrel receive the dark earth colored treatment.

I will contact them to see if it can be used on aluminum. If not then I'll keep looking for a durable finish for the aluminum chassis.

I'm getting closer on the final specs though.

So far I think I will have all steel parts (minus springs) receive the melonite treatment. That will be the base coat. Then the PVC DLC/Flat Dark Earth coating from Ionbond for the steel parts. The aluminum chassis will most likey be coated with cerecote (if the Ionbond process is not available).

My hope is that with all the investment in metal treatments and coatings is to ensure that this rifle that I am having built will become a legacy firearm that can be passed down to my children and so-on.

I will also be sending in the Storm Lake Barrel and APEX kit to receive the melonite metal treatement. I will also include some random handgun barrels as well since it will have little or no impact on cost (given the minimum order is now 200 dollars).

[Mjolnir]

Yes, again lazy typing on my part. I am thinking of the DLC PVC.


I found that they offer a PVC coating in flat dark earth color. (http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/sa-xd-xd-m-accessories/140675-new-pvd-coating-colors-ionbond-fde-flat-dark-earth-copper.html) If it is the same as DLC I will have the whole rifle's barreled action, bolt and small parts treated. If it is not the same as DLC then I'll have the bolt and small parts DLC coated, and the action and barrel receive the dark earth colored treatment.

I will also be sending in the Storm Lake Barrel and APEX kit to receive the melonite metal treatement. I will also include some random handgun barrels as well since it will have little or no impact on cost (given the minimum order is now 200 dollars).
The APEX kit should NOT be coated. They are small and the Melonite process does NOT leave smooth components. There is a Quenching-Polishing cycle that is performed. For the internals NP3 or DLC would be just fine. To be honest I'd not bother.

You do realize the stock barrel on the M&P pistol is melonited (as is the slide)?

[Rockfish Dave]

The APEX kit should NOT be coated. They are small and the Melonite process does NOT leave smooth components. There is a Quenching-Polishing cycle that is performed. For the internals NP3 or DLC would be just fine. To be honest I'd not bother.

You do realize the stock barrel on the M&P pistol is melonited (as is the slide)?

Good to know about the Apex kit.

Yes, I had read that it was melonite treated else where. I bought the Storm Lake in hopes of having better accuracy (although the stock barrel had better accuracy than my G17 after installing the APEX kit), along with the pre-threaded barrel as I have been thinking of getting a suppressor for quite some time.

I have no complaints with the stainless barrel's performance, other than the bling factor. The gun is not mine, but my wife's. She likes the "shiney" barrel, but I clean and maintain all the firearms. If it makes it a little easier to clean, then I',m sure she'll get over it. :)

So how can the bore be polished? The link to the interview with Joel Kendrick is pretty clear on the entire barrel is treated, bore and all. He has his personal bench rest rifle on display, that had been melonite treated. (http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/shot-show-report-mmi-trutec-salt-bath-nitriding-for-barrels/)

BTW: Thanks for all the responses. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this for a bolt rifle built that I have just started. I have some other odds and ends that I'd like to treat as well... but the main application that I have in mind is the bolt action rifle. (sorry for the thread hijack).

[msr]

I just noticed that Gemtech shows a threaded (not in stock) black barrel for the standard M&P on their web site? Anyone know who makes it?

[crossgun]

Rockfish

Just to keep you focused and the wheels spinning here's a few pics to help you out.

I also am going to have a rifle barrel and action done. Hopefully it will go in the next week or two. I will let you know how it turns out.


http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww150/copperfield8910/DSCF0673.jpg
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww150/copperfield8910/DSCF0676.jpg

[Rockfish Dave]

Thanks! Good info.

- Dave

[No.6]

I do not think melonite can be applied to aluminum, and I know it is not recommended to use ionbond on alum either

Hmm, I've got a ionbonded AR upper and lower from Denny (Global Tactical) that seems to be just fine. First I've heard of this.