View Full Version : Building an AR for the wife?
Hello all,
I know some of these will be redundant questions in general, but I did a search and didn’t come back with much regarding building and AR for a woman to use in carbine courses.
Relatively new to AR’s and am wanting to build one for my wife. She is interested in doing some carbine courses with me. She is about 5’7” and 120lbs… not new to guns (loves the CZ P-01 she carries), but new to AR’s.
Trying to decide what you want in your own build is tricky enough, but as this will be used mostly by my wife, I am a little unsure of things.
First is that length and weight are more of a consideration with less margin for error since she is smaller and not as strong. I want it to be as easy for her to pack around and run drills with as possible.
As I said, she wants to do some carbine courses with me and I would like to get her an AR for that purpose, however, the rifle she will be training with will pull double duty as general SD and the proverbial “SHTF”.
Reliability, accuracy and size/weight are the most important factors. As mentioned, size and weight is a special consideration since this first AR will be used by my wife a lot.
That has me struggling over a few issues;
1.) I had decided on a mid-length for myself, but am now considering a carbine length (possibly 14.5 with pinned FH) for her as they are supposed to be the lighter, handier carbines.
a. How much lighter and handier is the carbine length over the mid length?
b. Does the recoil reduction, theoretical ease on parts and longer sight radius of the mid length outweigh any additional weight /length it would have over the carbine length weapon?
c. Is the 14.5 inch with pinned/welded FH worth it in this context? I don’t really like the idea of a permanent FH personally, but I have been told this configuration is lighter and faster to handle. If this is the case, maybe something like a BCM 14.5 mid-length would be best ? (I was considering this one here; http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14%20ddl9.htm)
Here are my thoughts so far;
Barrels:
Daniel Defense 16" Mid, CHF, 1:7
BCM BFH 16"/14.5 Mid Length Barrel, 1:7
Noveske/ Centurion Arms…
Upper;
BCM http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14%20ddl9.htm (BCM Auto BCG added + PWS FSC/Vortex permanently installed)
-or-
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl9.htm
I moved away from LMT as they don’t offer a mid length. Am considering Noveske but not sure the barrel is worth the extra cost in this context. DD upper maybe, but it seems the general consensus is that BCM has a more accurate barrel and better bang for buck factor. This is of course all based on the many threads on various boards and the folks I have firsthand accounts from. Until I have built and gone through courses with a few different set ups, I’ll have to go with the accounts of others…I am certainly open to any educated opinion.
Lower receiver:
BCM or DD (Been coming up empty with BCM lowers out of stock. I know DD has a great rep and I like the flared magwell - I hear it mates perfectly to BCM uppers)
Also, all the peripherals are trickier to decide on, again, because she isn’t big and strong.
Other things to consider;
PRS gas buster charging handle or BCM gunfighter Mod4
Magpul CTR stock
DD LITE 9” rail
Magpul MAID grip
Magpul enhanced trigger guard (which is typically on the DD lower right?)
I want simple BUIS so I thought LMT fixed BUIS and a fixed FSB like on the BCM uppers I linked.
I hear great things about Giselle triggers?
What about Ambi safety & mag release? Would help her with weak side drills in a course. Worth it?
AAC Blackout or Smith Vortex FH?
Maybe a PWS FSC556 to help with recoil? I hear they do quite well as a flash suppressor also?
Lastly, any gear suggestions better for a lady? Chest rigs and such for the carbine classes?
Thanks all,
I know trial and error are often times necessary, but I am trying to get as close to "right" for my wife's AR as I can... and wanted to appeal to all of you with more experience.
tracker722
03-19-10, 22:17
******
Obviously opinions vary but given your statements here is what I would do...
BCM 14.5 Midlength upper with DD lite Rail http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14%20ddl9.htm
Or if you want to go even lighter the non rail version with the standard hand guard, that with a factory pinned FSC556 which will make the already milder shooting middy even more enjoyable to shoot for her (as far as recoil goes). Then get either a complete BCM lower from Grant or build up a Daniel Defense lower on Grant's site. Those would be my thoughts. I think the middy would be more enjoyable to shoot, you could ofcourse go lighter if you had Grant build you a pencil barreled upper but it depends on the priority.
my wife runs these basic specs on her rifle
noveske 14.5 afghan switchblock w/ acc blackout
troy flip up sights with night sight in front
vltor stock
shurefire light up front
tango down battlegrip
magpul asap and magpul B.a.d. lever magpul angled fore grip
mod 3 gunfighter charging handle
Are you going to get her a red dot optic sometime down the line? If so I wonder if having a folding BUIS is better than a fixed BUIS to keep the sight picture simple. You can karate chop the Magpul BUIS to make it deploy so that should be fairly simple.
I don't know much about chest rigs since I don't have one so someone will have to give advice on that. However, I have a SOC-C belt rig exactly like this person has setup. I enjoy it a lot because of the freedom of movement, comfort and ease to take off when I need to go #1 or #2 lol "First Line Belt" (http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=557741&postcount=346).
You probably were thinking about it but get gloves for her as well. The mechanix ones you can pick up at Auto-Zone are pretty decent.
I sent you a reply to your PM and after reading this post I lean a bit more toward getting her an A2/Vortex over a PWS FSC556. If she starts saying "I need faster follow up shots, I want that edge!" then I think consider a muzzle break.
My wife already had her own 6721 when I met her years ago. :cool:
I have since added carbine length handguard replacement rails, a TLR-1, TD Battlegrip and she just stole the AFG out of the mail that arrived. :D
I highly recommend TacForce stuff for training classes and the like.
http://tac-force.com/sotvests.aspx
The Commando Vest and Tactical chest harness are priced right.
I picked up the Commando in tan on clearance for $55. I added a few things including a medical kit, hydration and a dump pouch.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_leflAGmZllI/S6Sbl6O8XrI/AAAAAAAABMo/rF_7-RMCqqU/vestedit.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_leflAGmZllI/S48hAGM2jtI/AAAAAAAABJo/pLnreTUiEV0/s640/2010-03-03%2019.50.43.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_leflAGmZllI/S48iIP2uTdI/AAAAAAAABKE/G1fscTwgAf8/s640/2010-03-03%2019.50.36.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_leflAGmZllI/S48gzGafoPI/AAAAAAAABJI/kHPw2MGZpMI/s640/2010-03-03%2019.50.12.jpg
tracker, That is exactly what happened with my wifes CZ P-01. She loved it, I shot it a few times and then bought a second one for myself! Thanks for the recommendations.
jp, That is very close to what I am thinking. You mentioned the pencil barrel vs. other “priorities”… what am I sacrificing by going with the pencil barrel? I know accuracy is rumored to be less, but that should only apply as the barrel heats up, correct? I suppose that may happen during a course.
Ratfink, thanks for the info on what your wife is running. The afghan is a SS barrel right? How is the weight? We had been looking at an N4/VIS
Nippy, thanks for the post and the PM. Yes, I have an Aimpoint in a Larue mount intended for her rifle. As to your comment on the FSB vs flip up… I’m not sure what would be better. I personally like the idea of the fixed front site, simple, solid and it’s there immediately in case the optic goes down. However, you may be right about a cluttered sight picture, I’m not sure if that would be an issue for her or not. Thanks for the recommendation on the SOC-C belt rig, I’ll look into that.
Cochese, thanks for the link and pics. I wasn’t familiar with that product line, so it gives me more to look into.
Thanks for the info all. I wonder if I should wait for BCM to release the BFH's… They’ll be out before the next carbine courses we are planning on taking.
Any one know if these 14.5” middy uppers are very ammo picky? The BCM site does say to feed it high quality ammo. We do practice a lot with Wolf ammo.
Just make it light weight. And easy to adjust things.
And you don't need all the assault vests to train with. There are ample topics in M4C that discuss training gear etc. KISS. I have a simple mini chest rig for extra mag storage. From Tactical Tail (mini mav). And a couple mags on the belt. (Actually a little more complicated as I was testing out the SOC C padded belt that I sell so I use that too but it is not necessary). Don't overwhelm her with gear and don't tell her which gear she needs. Let her choose and figure things out through use.
ForTehNguyen
03-20-10, 10:59
build her a lightweight midlength, could use a cavalry arms lower if you want even more lightweight. It has the A1 length stock, not the longer A2, you can still find some in stock. No adjustable length however.
a. How much lighter and handier is the carbine length over the mid length?
b. Does the recoil reduction, theoretical ease on parts and longer sight radius of the mid length outweigh any additional weight /length it would have over the carbine length weapon?
a) when comparing govt profile to govt profile, the middy is slightly lighter, because there is more machined off under the handguard which is 2" longer. However on a pencil barrel, its going to be about the same weights I would think
b) I've shot my friends S&W M&P15 MOE with a carbine gas system and then my mid lengths, theres is a noticeable amount of recoil reduction in the middy. My Middy with H buffer almost feel like my 20" AR15 which is very soft. He owns a midlength too and notices the difference. Go for a middy, I see no advantages of a carbine over a middy, unless you want to mount a M203 :)
Im building a cavalry arms polymer lower, BCM middy lightweight upper, I estimated the unloaded weight to be around 5.5 to 6.0 lbs with a Aimpoint H-1 clone. For comparison my BCM govt profile middy, Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite, Magpul ACS, Eotech 512 weighs 8 to 8.5 lbs.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Lightweight_001.jpg
Weight as shown: 6 lbs
Barrel: Daniel Defense 16" lightweight profile (carbine length gas system) with A2 flash hider, I hear that it's also available now in midlength gas system.
Upper receiver: Daniel Defense
Iron sights: Daniel Defense
Lower: Charles Daly with DPMS kit
Handguard: Troy Extreme Battle Rail XTR 11"
Stock: Magpul CTR
Grip: Magpul MIAD
Light: Streamlight TLR-1
Red dot sight: Burris Fastfire II with YHM 1/2" riser
Function: reliable and very manageable recoil
Fun factor: Priceless
Here is my girl gun,
TA44s
11.5 cmmg pencil barrel
troy TRX extreme 9.0
pws556
rra entry stock
ambi controls
Weighs 5lbs, 8oz
It is really easy to use and has no recoil. With the TA44s the clear site picture and lack of any controls really lends itself to use by someone who isnt a complete gun nut but still wants to be able to defend themselves.
My girlfriend loves to shoot it.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4945/49248986.jpg
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8931/59938312.jpg
And you don't need all the assault vests to train with. There are ample topics in M4C that discuss training gear etc. KISS. I have a simple mini chest rig for extra mag storage. From Tactical Tail (mini mav). And a couple mags on the belt. (Actually a little more complicated as I was testing out the SOC C padded belt that I sell so I use that too but it is not necessary). Don't overwhelm her with gear and don't tell her which gear she needs. Let her choose and figure things out through use.
Eguns, I agree about letting her chose, I just want to help facilitate by giving her a place to start. We looked up the mini mav, pretty simple and inexpensive. Thanks for the recommendation.
build her a lightweight midlength
a) when comparing govt profile to govt profile, the middy is slightly lighter, because there is more machined off under the handguard which is 2" longer. However on a pencil barrel, its going to be about the same weights I would think
b) I've shot my friends S&W M&P15 MOE with a carbine gas system and then my mid lengths, theres is a noticeable amount of recoil reduction in the middy. My Middy with H buffer almost feel like my 20" AR15 which is very soft. He owns a midlength too and notices the difference. Go for a middy, I see no advantages of a carbine over a middy, unless you want to mount a M203 :)
Im building a cavalry arms polymer lower, BCM middy lightweight upper, I estimated the unloaded weight to be around 5.5 to 6.0 lbs with a Aimpoint H-1 clone. For comparison my BCM govt profile middy, Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite, Magpul ACS, Eotech 512 weighs 8 to 8.5 lbs.
Good info thanks. What are your thoughts on barrel length with the BCM upper? I am still leaning towards the 14.5" if it isn't to finicky.
Again, I appreciate everyone's input.
YammyMonkey
03-20-10, 18:46
My wife is bigger than yours at 5' 10" & about 175lbs. My porky Bushmaster is a bit much for her, or me frankly, so when I started looking at building her a gun I wanted something similar to what she's used to, but lighter.
Stag lower w/Vltor Modstock, ambi safety (lefty shooter) ASAP sling plate, MOE grip & 9mm buffer. I just ordered her the lightweight BCM middy upper & will plug in an 11 or 13" VTAC/Troy rail, DD sights, TLR-1, FSC556 & an Aimpoint Micro on a DD mount. I have a TD VFG that she can try & keep if she likes it.
All the stuff is relatively light, but also very functional. If she decides to change things around I can use it on another build or sell it off pretty easily. If she decides she's OK with the extra weight I'll add a cut down Redi-Mag but I think 2 full mags onboard is pushing it for her.
I pretty much used my rifle as the starting point & changed things that would benefit her based on her experiences shooting it.
ETA: I'd go with the 16" as you get a little more muzzle velocity & it's a lot easier to change muzzle devices & rails down the road. There's also not much of a weight penalty to pay & it's easily offset with the pencil/lightweight barrel.
ETA: I'd go with the 16" as you get a little more muzzle velocity & it's a lot easier to change muzzle devices & rails down the road. There's also not much of a weight penalty to pay & it's easily offset with the pencil/lightweight barrel.
Hmmm.... I guess I could just make it easy and do a Daniel Defense M4V3 if we go back to 16". :) So many good options! Thanks for the info Yammy (do you ride Yamaha's?)
The Morrigan
03-20-10, 20:03
I'd go with:
Midlength, govt' profile barrel. -- will recoil softer and be light.
Flattop with flip-up BUIS -- lighter than a carry handle, and still allows all sorts of optics to be mounted.
I'd stick with standard handguard at first, only add the weight of rails if necessary later.
Fairly good, light stock -- the MagPul MOE looks real good
Don't put any other extras on it except an optic of her choice if she doesn't want to run just irons.
I'd go with:
Midlength, govt' profile barrel. -- will recoil softer and be light.
Flattop with flip-up BUIS -- lighter than a carry handle, and still allows all sorts of optics to be mounted.
I'd stick with standard handguard at first, only add the weight of rails if necessary later.
Fairly good, light stock -- the MagPul MOE looks real good
Don't put any other extras on it except an optic of her choice if she doesn't want to run just irons.
Good point about the standard handguard. It's just such a habit to think
"what rail" right away.
All good advice so far - If i had it to do all over again for mine, the only change I'd make is middy gas system and a rail.
What she has now is a 14.7" Lightweight Carbine - topped with an Aimpoint H-1 and Surefire E2D light. The EMOD stock and MOE grip are great. ASAP and H-2 Buffer goes a long way to helping. (H buffer should be fine in a middy). The stock handguard worked great until I started looking at light options.
The VTAC/TROY rail systems are great for this application, though the simple A-Frame front sight also works great - Could also do an MOE handguard, light rail on one side, VTAC light mount (Surefire G2LED). Cheaper, and effective.
Like everybody else, I'd recommend going with the 9.0" Rail/MOE and Middy Gassed lightweight upper and A-frame sight. 16" is probably a better choice all around.
The biggest problem you'll be facing with all this is that you'll want one just like hers. It's a fact of life, a light, functional AR is comfortable, and points better than a bulkier counterpart.
16" is probably a better choice all around.
This is the biggest hang up I am having... kinda back and forth between doing the BCM 14.5" / BCM 16"
or one of the light weights? I'm not sure of the real weight and length difference between the 14.5 and 16.
The biggest problem you'll be facing with all this is that you'll want one just like hers. It's a fact of life, a light, functional AR is comfortable, and points better than a bulkier counterpart.[/QUOTE]
No doubt. I plan on building another for myself soon after!
Thanks for the good info!
jp, That is very close to what I am thinking. You mentioned the pencil barrel vs. other “priorities”… what am I sacrificing by going with the pencil barrel? I know accuracy is rumored to be less, but that should only apply as the barrel heats up, correct? I suppose that may happen during a course.
Cazwell, when I said Pencil barrel vs. other priorities I meant that to my knowledge there are no middy pencil barrels. I cannot attest to the accuracy of pencil vs. Govt, pencil barrels heat up quicker than govt profile barrels which over a course or many strings of fire could cause you to see accuracy degradation. I don’t know the weight difference between a Govt profile 14.5" middy and a pencil Carbine 16" so I can’t help there Grant may have those numbers. I personally like the 14.5" over the 16" for my uses and have just switched to 14.5" middy uppers on both carbines.
You said you were thinking of going with a 14.5” carbine length for her due to it being light and handy, I would recommend a 14.5” mid length not carbine length as the recoil and control will be better with a middy gas system. You will see little to no difference between the two in weight and maneuverability but she will see a difference in control. Pin an FSC 556 to that and she’ll be set.
Hope this helps
ForTehNguyen
03-23-10, 23:35
This is the biggest hang up I am having... kinda back and forth between doing the BCM 14.5" / BCM 16"
or one of the light weights? I'm not sure of the real weight and length difference between the 14.5 and 16.
The biggest problem you'll be facing with all this is that you'll want one just like hers. It's a fact of life, a light, functional AR is comfortable, and points better than a bulkier counterpart.
No doubt. I plan on building another for myself soon after!
Thanks for the good info!
lightweight and pencil barrels have more metal machined off towards the end of the barrel, this will shift the center of mass towards the rear of the gun more. I just got my 16" BCM middy lighweight and it notice the difference, feels a lot less front heavy. They are still govt profile under the handguards. Carbine gas system would be lighter since there will be 2 more inches of thinner barrel on the front. But I doubt its anything noticeable, a couple ounces maybe. I still prefer the middy gas system overall for the sight radius and lower recoil.
I dont have a scale, but I put the middy upper on a A2 stock lower to mess around and it felt really compact due to the center of mass shift towards the center of the gun. Probably lost 4-5 oz at the end of the barrel, where that weight would feel the heaviest. My cavalry arms polymer lower should come in this week so I can complete it.
A healthy sample of ladies, teens, and IBOs do well with the Colt AR6520 and others built to the same overall profiles. I suspect the upcoming AR6720 from Clyde Armory will be newest favorite.
Such a gun with a T1/H1, BUIS, standard hand guards with a bolt-on rail with e-series light makes for a very handy carbine suitable for those above, and a hulking He-Man alike.
I'm neither a proponent or pundit of the mid-length, but I don't bother with them.
You might find an H2 is too much buffer, especially if you use economy or import training ammunition.
You guys have all been great and I appreciate the info and clarification.
One question, the Magpul MOE handguard has been recommended by several since it is as light as standard hand guards but offers a little more modularity and it is inexpensive.
It is listed as being 0.39lbs (6.24oz - I suppose the mid-length will be slightly heavier when it is released this summer).
The DD light rail (9.5") is listed as 10.2 oz.
While I like the idea of very light, inexpensive rail, I have to wonder if 3.9 oz of weight savings is worth the loss of a "free float" set up? Perhaps is doesn't have that significant of an effect...
Regardless, I do appreciate all the info everyone has chipped in. It has allowed my wife and I to get a much better handle of the options, and the pros and cons of each. Funds will allow me to order parts come May, and I am excited to get my wife and her AR out to some courses!
i didn't read the whole thread, but i did Ctrl+F for "SBR"...
can you SBR? they're not usually recommended for women because they're loudy and scary and more difficult to control.. but since she's already a shooter, these things shouldn't be insurmountable. you can easily get under 7lbs with rail in a nice compact, well-balanced package.
food for oil.
i didn't read the whole thread, but i did Ctrl+F for "SBR"...
can you SBR? they're not usually recommended for women because they're loudy and scary and more difficult to control.. but since she's already a shooter, these things shouldn't be insurmountable. you can easily get under 7lbs with rail in a nice compact, well-balanced package.
food for oil.
We have definitely discussed it and I think she would be fine noise/scary wise... I have never done it before, so it presents even more of a learning curve, not just in terms of the actual SBR/NFA process, but also more to learn regarding barrel lengths and other options.
It's just a matter of do the pros outweigh the cons... and I'm not sure if they do or not.
I'll end up like many of you I'm sure... with multiple AR's. My wife has her Saiga conversion that we did and she likes it, I just want something a little lighter and ergonomical for her.
The DD light rail (9.5") is listed as 10.2 oz.
While I like the idea of very light, inexpensive rail, I have to wonder if 3.9 oz of weight savings is worth the loss of a "free float" set up? Perhaps is doesn't have that significant of an effect...
The benefits of free-floating are lost on the overwhelming majority of folks.
The benefits of free-floating are lost on the overwhelming majority of folks.
"Lost on them" as in they do not intellectually recognize or understand the benefits, or lost on them as in, most are do not have enough fundamental skill to truly maximize the benefit?
We have definitely discussed it and I think she would be fine noise/scary wise... I have never done it before, so it presents even more of a learning curve, not just in terms of the actual SBR/NFA process, but also more to learn regarding barrel lengths and other options.
It's just a matter of do the pros outweigh the cons... and I'm not sure if they do or not.
I'll end up like many of you I'm sure... with multiple AR's. My wife has her Saiga conversion that we did and she likes it, I just want something a little lighter and ergonomical for her.
"Lost on them" as in they do not intellectually recognize or understand the benefits, or lost on them as in, most are do not have enough fundamental skill to truly maximize the benefit?
free floating rails really dont add any noticeable accuracy to a weapon inside 300m, unless you're bench grouping. the m16a2 will give "hits" out to 500m, with plastic handguards and a chrome-lined bore.
as to the SBR question- i'll just add that my 5'3" 110lbs (the brief few weeks out of the year when she isn't pregnant) wife prefers my 10.5 over all both our guns, long and short. the weight and balance more than make up for recoil and report.
"Lost on them" as in they do not intellectually recognize or understand the benefits, or lost on them as in, most are do not have enough fundamental skill to truly maximize the benefit?
The latter.
The benefits of free-floating are lost on the overwhelming majority of folks.
It is true the "benefits" of a FF rail are "lost" on most. The accuracy difference between the two on normal conditions is slight at best. It really shows when you start hanging crap off of them that is where the rail shows an improvement. I run rails more because that is what I like than because I "need" them, I like being able to move stuff around and place Items where I want them which while possible with a standard hand guard is not as easy. and no the 3.9oz is not really that big a chunk especially when comparing a rail vs a hand guard, its even closer when you add in the stock cap and delta ring which come off when adding a rail.
And then you start adding rail pieces. That closes the weight gap as well.
If you decide later that you need the utility of a rial, the Omega is a good stopgap, but in lightweight systems you'll find yourself actually minimizing what's on there, stock handguard or MOE will the be the option you settle on anyway - even a quartet of MagPul rail ladders will add a bit of weight. Still, if your budget accomodates a Lite rail or VTAC, go for it.
Given the availability of BCM 16" Middy Lightweights, that's worth a consideration. If you later want to shorten it to a 12.5" or something, do that.
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