View Full Version : Input for my shooting (Updated)
I decided to post this here since there are much more helpful people compared to other boards.
This past year I decided to do a switch to the Glock 19 from a CZ-75 since it was nearly the "perfect" 9mm & getting my CCW permit is my next step. I really like it, it fits my hand pretty well, and well we all know the merits of the Glock 19. The one thing I've never cared for is the trigger, and too be frankly honest I don't consider the safety trigger very safe at all.
I bought a Beretta 92G not too long after that since I've always wanted one. It doesn't fit my hand as well, its big, its heavy, I hate slide-mounted controls, but I love shooting it. I always shoot it better than the Glock even though I practice dry-firing with the Glock much more often.
I went to the range today, and here was a sample of what I'm talking about. I am not a great pistol shot, and I do have a flinch. That said, I did not shoot as good as I normally do today.
Beretta 92G with a "D" Mainspring
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/IMG_0001-2.jpg
Glock 19 with a 3.5lb Connector & Stock Trigger Spring
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/IMG_0002.jpg
So I was just looking for some input on my situation. I know some professional training would be the best option, but I would appreciate some pointers/advice.
Overall I think the Glock is the better handgun. I think it would make a much better choice for a CCW handgun, but I just don't shoot it that good. I also do not particularly care for the trigger (Tried Comp Spring & NY1 Spring also).
The Beretta despite its faults just shoots much better overall, and I feel a bit more confident in it. I just don't think it lends itself for a CCW handgun.
Any input would be much appreciated.
Are you shooting one-handed? Two-handed? What does your three yard group look like? Your seven? Where are you holding the front sight on target? Frankly, without being able to evaluate your stance, your grip, your rate of fire on the above targets, there just isn't enough there to work with.
I suggest you shoot with a more experienced shooter/coach who can evaluate you while you shoot.
honestly your grouping with the glock isn't that bad. i'd say you're anticipating the shot a bit which throws you high and left. you could try an M&P. a lot of people looking for glock features in a different gun find the M&P fits the bill nicely.
have you taken any defensive handgun training classes? i found before i took a class i was eager to put a lighter trigger on my glock. after a class my shooting really started coming into its own. i really don't think there is a better trigger for double tapping than glock.
Are you shooting one-handed? Two-handed? What does your three yard group look like? Your seven? Where are you holding the front sight on target? Frankly, without being able to evaluate your stance, your grip, your rate of fire on the above targets, there just isn't enough there to work with.
I suggest you shoot with a more experienced shooter/coach who can evaluate you while you shoot.
Closer targets are usually a bit tighter. The closet I usually shoot is 7 yards.
2 Handed, Isosceles Grip/Stance, Front Sight centered on target. Not very slow fire on these targets, but not rapid fire.
Like I said, I do have a flinch from years of shooting DA revolvers incorrectly, so I do have to focus more on stance/grip compared to long arms.
Closer targets are usually a bit tighter. The closet I usually shoot is 7 yards.
2 Handed, Isosceles Grip/Stance, Front Sight centered on target. Not very slow fire on these targets, but not rapid fire.
Like I said, I do have a flinch from years of shooting DA revolvers incorrectly, so I do have to focus more on stance/grip compared to long arms.
could try some 10-15 foot stuff and move out as you get more comfortable. it's very easy to see where your bullet impacts at those distances, so you have some real time feedback for what you're doing. when you can make one ragged hole at 15 feet, back it up some.
556,
try this drill: start at 5yds. fire a shot then try to chase that shot with the next five rounds. the goal is to have all five shots touch the first one. in a perfect world the group should be a one hole group. when you can do that consistently start to move back to say seven yds. and re. the drill, mind you this is not done in one session but over the course of a few training sessions. this will force you to work the trigger smoothly and keep your eye on the front sight. hope this helps.
FWIW, I handled the M&P not too long ago along with a Gen 4 G22. Since the Glock grip feels fairly natural to me, the M&P just didn't feel right. I also felt that the full-sized Glocks also fit better in my hand due to the location of the "hump". I think the next time I go to the range I may rent a G17 & M&P to try out to really see if this is a hardware issue.
The last time I went to the range, the Beretta basically made a 15 round group my girl-like hand could cover at about 10 yards. That time I was using a 3.5lb connector & NY1 trigger spring in my Glock 19, and my grouping was about the same as the pic I posted.
I will try shooting mostly at 3-5 yards, and see what happens next time I head out. I have a gift certificate for the range, so I'm planning on going back this week to try it out.
556A2, on your G19 have you replaced your G19's serrated trigger/triggerbar with the smooth trigger/triggerbar for the G17? It's a little thing, but might make your G19 a bit easier (the trigger distance will still be the same).
Another thing you could try would be to go with the "-" connector (the 4.25 lb one) and the NY1 and see if that combination works a bit better (I realize that you've previously tried the NY1, but I'm not sure if you've tried it with the "-" connector).
Alternatively, with the right holster/belt you can do just fine with the Beretta for concealed carry. I use a Kramer IWB, an Orca IWB, and a Wilderness OWB Zip-Slide for my 92D, but there are certain plenty of excellent holsters out there-but you're far more likely to find me carrying one of my Glocks in a Blade Tech IWB.
Best, Jon
556A2, on your G19 have you replaced your G19's serrated trigger/triggerbar with the smooth trigger/triggerbar for the G17? It's a little thing, but might make your G19 a bit easier (the trigger distance will still be the same).
Another thing you could try would be to go with the "-" connector (the 4.25 lb one) and the NY1 and see if that combination works a bit better (I realize that you've previously tried the NY1, but I'm not sure if you've tried it with the "-" connector).
Alternatively, with the right holster/belt you can do just fine with the Beretta for concealed carry. I use a Kramer IWB, an Orca IWB, and a Wilderness OWB Zip-Slide for my 92D, but there are certain plenty of excellent holsters out there-but you're far more likely to find me carrying one of my Glocks in a Blade Tech IWB.
Best, Jon
I actually did just replace the trigger to the smooth one before today, and it does make the trigger feel a lot better.
I currently run a Ghost 3.5lb connector & a stock trigger spring. The last trip I used the Ghost 3.5lb connector & a NY1 trigger spring. I think my grouping was maybe a bit better last time with the NY1 & 3.5lb connector, but I shot much better than day with my Beretta as well. I also used the 3.5lb connector with the Wolff 6lb trigger spring which gave a great trigger pull, but it was way too light for a defensive firearm IMO.
I'm looking into just using the Beretta for CCW, but I would like to try to become more competent with my Glock.
honestly i would just try to master the glock trigger as it is rather than mess around with it. it kinda sets you back to square one every time you change it.
honestly i would just try to master the glock trigger as it is rather than mess around with it. it kinda sets you back to square one every time you change it.
That is what I'm thinking now.
I'm just going to switch back to the 3.5lb Connector / NY1 Trigger Spring, and just keep that combo in it. I think I'm trying to make my G19 into a G34 instead of just making it a purely defensive tool switching trigger springs and connectors frequently.
John_Wayne777
03-21-10, 11:04
Since you are new at this, work on trigger control first.
The Glock has a really two stage feel to it. Take an UNLOADED Glock (and you're sure it's unloaded, right? Triple check.) and press the trigger using only enough pressure to move the trigger. At some point, usually about halfway through the trigger, you'll notice that the trigger stops moving unless you add more pressure.
The section of the trigger pull that you could accomplish with the lighter pressure is called the "takeup". The point where the pressure required to keep the trigger moving is the actual trigger pull. The "takeup" on the Glock is mainly there to allow the trigger bar to deactivate the striker block. The point where you hit the heavier resistance is the actual trigger pull...the point where the trigger's movement is actually cocking (and subsequently releasing) the striker to fire the pistol.
Often with Glock triggers I see that new shooters try and pull entirely through the trigger in one motion. Generally their results improve by teaching them to treat the Glock trigger almost like a 2 stage trigger where they quickly press through the "takeup" (also called "slack in the trigger") and then once they hit the increased resistance of the "actual" trigger pull, to pause briefly. Then to apply deliberate and ever increasing pressure on the trigger. To understand what I mean by "deliberate and ever increasing pressure" use a mental exercise.
Imagine that your trigger finger is a lever and that on the other end of the lever there is a platform where you place weight to make the lever eventually pull the trigger. Imagine placing 1/4 of a pound of weight on the platform and then adding another 1/4 of a pound steadily until the weapon goes boom.
That's the proverbial "perfect" trigger pull. If the sights are anywhere on target with a trigger pull like that, you will hit...because that trigger pull does not disrupt the aim of the firearm. Probably the best method of practicing the perfect trigger pull at home is to use the case/penny on the front sight drill. The drill involves using taking an unloaded firearm and balancing either an empty cartridge case or a dime on the front sight.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%201911%20Operators%20June%206-7%2009/TD1/P1020569.jpg
The goal is to pull the trigger in such a way that the casing/dime doesn't fall off the front sight.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%201911%20Operators%20June%206-7%2009/TD1/P1020570.jpg
Work on developing that perfect trigger pull with dryfire and practice by shooting the smallest groups you can at the range as per DetMongo's advice at relatively close distances, say 3-7 yards. Start at 3 with the goal of putting all the bullets through a single hole. (Yes, it can be done even with a Glock). With the perfect trigger pull and a perfect sight picture you should be able to shoot insanely tiny groups at those distances. The key to good accuracy is not mucking with the trigger chasing particular trigger characteristics, it's learning to properly control the trigger. Wait to fool with modding the weapon until after you've established good trigger control fundamentals.
SNIP
Saved for reference :)
One thing though. I've been mucking with the trigger for nearly as long as I've had this Glock. Since your advice is working on the stock trigger (5lb Connector & Stock Spring), should I switch back to this setup?
FWIW, my Beretta's trigger stacks a little bit before breaking in SA moving the firing pin block out of the way.
JW's trigger exercise works best with the stock 5.5lbs trigger. The 3.5lbs trigger will feel "mushy" and not break as cleanly. If you still have the stock 5.5lbs trigger it would be best to start there.
It's not comparable to a tuned 1911 trigger but with some practice one can shoot very well.
Again, someone who knows how to evaluate a shooter needs to watch you shoot. You may be shooting two handed isosceles but you still may be exhibiting poor form or technique. For instance, there may be bend in one or both of your elbows, you may be leaning back, you may not have an effective two-handed grip, you may be mashing the trigger, too much trigger finger, too little, removing your finger from the trigger every reset, your body weight may be on your heels instead of the balls of your feet, no bend in your knees, you may be anticipating the shot, etc, etc, etc. Tiny little things like these all add up; find a good coach.
citizensoldier16
03-21-10, 15:36
Here are some charts I know of that explain your groupings if they're consistantly off-center. I can't find the one that I really like, but this one is close:
http://www.lasc.us/correction_chart_logo_small.gif.jpg
Slight Update
I watched a Todd Jarret video last night, and I did find 2 issues with my current stance/grip.
1. I was very aggressively locking my arms, and aggressively leaning forward while at the line. Fairly easy to correct.
2. This is one could be the hardware issue with the G19. TJ was showing that the handgun should be held center to the wrist, and parallel to the elbow when the arm is straight down.
The problem is I was the G19 is not centered in my to the wrist when I hold it normally. The "hump" pushes the G19 out of my hand out to the left (right handed grip) slightly. I can correct this to keep it parallel, but it is fairly uncomfortable. Since the Beretta's backstrap is fairly straight compared to the Glock, my girlish hand will still center it to my wrist.
Pics of what I'm talking about:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/IMG_0001-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/IMG_0004-2.jpg
Now I am wondering if this could be one issue I am having with the G19 over the 92G. The G17 (Gen 3 & Gen 4) do feel a little bit better in my hands due to the hump being lower in the grip in the G3, and the lower hump & reduced grip area in the G4 G17.
Should I maybe start looking at an alternative to the G19?
Maybe a grip reduction?
Just shoot it anyways?
spamsammich
03-22-10, 14:03
I'm 5'3" and have the hands of a smurf. If I can handle a G19, you can. Seek professional instruction and don't dick around with the gun until you have the basics down. I've messed with trigger settings and even considered grip reductions to help me shoot better with this gun. You know what really helped me? Watching a bunch of different instructional videos (lame I know), a guy at the range that shot IPSC giving me some constructive criticism about my slapping at the trigger, and trigger time with plenty of ball/dummy drills and dry fire. I'm still looking forward to getting some real instruction/training done this year but I'm finding that with time, I'm coming around to liking this platform. I used to get all wrapped up with trigger pull and ergos but when I started really caring more about sight picture, tracking the front sight, and calling shots, my groups got way better.
I should add that I now shoot with a Ghost 3.5lb connector and ny1 spring with the coil removed. I've settled on this configuration for the last 1000 or so rounds and find it isn't too taxing for my girly mitts.
I went to the range again today to work on my Glock 19 again after taking all of the information in this thread. It had a Ghost 3.5lb connector & NY1 Trigger Spring which is what I've finalized on.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/G195y.jpg
5 Yards, Slow Fire, 10 shot group on the top, 5 shot groups on the bottom.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/G1910y.jpg
10 Yards, Slow Fire, 10 shot group.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Avtomat/G1915y.jpg
15 yards, Normal Fire, 10 shot group (.22LR on the bottom right target).
So I'm making progress, and I can actually shoot the Glock 19 pretty good.
Still enjoy shooting my Beretta better though, but I don't think I'll trade my G-19 for a 92 Compact now.
556,
things are looking better for you. just remember to become an accurate shot it takes many hours of practice. many of us on this board have spent years getting to were we are today, its always going to be battle some times from within to be a better shooter. also if you can't get to the range you can always dry fire as Johnwayne mentioned in the above post. as always feel free to ask for any help you may need in your shooting quest.:D
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