View Full Version : PRESBYOPIA or AGING EYES
I searched around the site and found several references to this topic. I was wanting to start a thread to find out what others have done for this. I believe this is a great topic since there are many of us on the back side of 40 with aging eyes. I hope this thread stays on topic with what glasses,contacts, surgery, etc. Also, what sights seem to help. I realize these are all personal preference issues.(1) I am wanting to "see" what combinations others have tried.(2) Would these work for normal day to day activities.(3) Does what works for pistol also do well for red dots on carbines. I hope this thread stays on topic and does'nt turn into a mine is better than yours thread. Would like to hear from some of the trainers since they not only have dealt with this themselves but, also teach those with these issues. Also if one of the mods want to clean this up and repost that would be great. Thanks for your feed back - Brad W.
montanadave
03-21-10, 10:30
At fifty, I was starting to need cheaters for reading and close work. Then, last fall, I had cataract surgery with lens implants so readers are a must (I didn't go for the multifocal lens implants because of prior LASIK surgery). For shooting, I found a great solution from Duluth Traders. They have safety glasses with built in "cheaters" in a variety of strengths. They even have one set for around thirty bucks which have a selection of lenses in different tints (all with the cheaters) which are easily swapped out.
I've also put Big Dots on a couple of handguns which have made it easier for me to pick up the front sights. And I've got Crimson Trace grips on my carry guns and a Streamlight TLR-2 on my night stand home defense pistol.
I've also got my eye out for the new FNP-45 Tactical with the Doctor RDS and co-witnessing "high rise" sights.
brushy bill
03-21-10, 10:50
I know there are a lot of success stories out there, but I had PRK and went from about 20/200 to 20/10 and 20/15. 5 years later I was back in glasses as my distance vision had once again deteriorated. Probably not typical, but the results don't last indefinitely for everyone. I wouldn't consider going back for a second go. I'll stick with glasses, though I do hate them.
tracker722
03-21-10, 11:48
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I'm 52 and very near sighted (-4.00). When I correct this with glasses or contacts, then I need reading glasses. I took the XS big dots off my pistols and returned to notch sights after I got the contact lenses dialed in for mono-vision. So I wear a less than full corrected lens in my dominant eye - optimized not for reading but to see a sharp front sight. It has worked very well for me.
Small downside is that this less than full corrected contact does not like lower quality scopes. My Nikon African is out of focus (both recticle and the world) with it. But high end Leu's and ACOGs look fine.
These are exactly the kind of responses I was looking for. Great info - hope many more will jump on this topic. Thanks Brad W.
I've been wearing glasses since I was 5 or 6; for me they are only a minor inconvenience. Am 55 now and have been experiencing presbyopia for about 15 years. I shoot with my normal prescription lenses, with my head tilted forward, in an iso stance. With handguns, the front sight is almost never in focus. The only time the front sight is in clear focus is in relative darkness and I am using the mounted weapon light(X300 or X400). Then I'm just seeing the silhouette of the rear and front sights, not the sights themselves. I've just trained this way so it doesn't really bother me so much.
Years ago, when I first noticed the front sight getting blurry I considered, but quickly rejected, the idea of special shooting glasses. They might have allowed me to focus on the front sight, but I couldn't reasonably expect to be wearing them when/where the fight started.
Most of my handguns have both lasers and tritium front sights with surrounding white rings. The tritium dot/white ring at least allows me to locate the front sight under most lighting conditions, even though I can't focus my eyesight on it. The laser is my primary aiming system and is very easy to see in anything but bright sunlight.
Lately, I've been breaking in my nephew's Springfield Armory GI 1911A1 with its tiny sights. That's a real treat; almost can't see the front sight at all.
Turned 60 last year. Been extremely near-sighted since a kid. With normal progressive bifocals, can either focus on target or, with head raised, on front sight through reading portion of lens. Latter is not a solution.
Bill Rogers said he has shooting glasses, with dominant eye corrected for near (front sight) vision. Other eye remains corrected for distance. Instead of that, I took some inexpensive flip-up, clip-on polaroids, removed the lenses, and put on (dominant eye only) a lens from a pair of cheap reading glasses that focused on front sight, when looking through distance part of regular glasses.
Obviously, that's not something one can do in "real world" situations, but it's certainly helpful in practice, courses, etc. And I do practice enough with regular glasses (and fuzzy front sight) that I'm comfortable enough with that set up.
Have Crimson Trace on a couple of guns. They're great, and great practice aids as well. Never a doubt when you jerk trigger or pull off target.
No perfect solution to imperfect eyes . . .
I read a great post a while back on this very subject, tried the fix, and will never look back....
One of the things that characterizes age related loss of near vision is the need for more light to see clearly. The rear sight on a handgun is essentially an aperture, making the aperture larger lets more light through. I switched to the .156" wide QUIK sights from Heinie, and, life is much better... Not like it was when I had a couple fewer decades of wear and tear, but much better. I had lost my ability to focus on the Trijicons I had used forever with the last prescription change, so this really helped.
Got my appt. set for monday with the eye doctor. Going to check into the monovision contact. What say you ?? Brad
Brad, I had to be real explicit and redundant with my optomitrist on the first go around. She kept wanting to use mono-vision to eliminate my need for reading glasses. But eventually she got it. That wasn't the point. It was to give me clear focus out at arms length etc where the front sight of my pistol was. Anyway that's what I got and I dig it. And about half the time I still need reading glasses cause that's not what my prescript was optimized for. I don't mind looking old. I AM old.
Although not completely relevant to action pistol/rifle shooting I found some of the information in the articles at this URL educational.
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongarts.html
JHC, thanks for the feed back. I was refered to this doct. by a guy at work who shoots . When I scheduled the appt. I told the lady what this was for and she seemed very informed about the whole shooting deal.( gotta luv texas). Maybe I will call tomorrow and see if its ok to bring my slide for a reference. Thanks Brad
Dan Goodwin
03-23-10, 06:30
50 and my watch started going south on me about five years ago, the front sight started being a problem a couple years back.
When I'm wearing the progressive trifocals I go with the backward head tilt ala Glover in Lethal Weapon that is counter to my core training, but actually wonder if that might make a round more likely to skid off my forehead rather than gain purchase...kinda like a low angle animal skull on a frontal shot.
With my contacts the front sights are a blur, but useable. With either glasses or contacts even my Leupold scope reticles are not as sharp as they used to be...
Last week the range staff was breaking in our new range and I had the contacts on so shot the whole afternoon with Wally World 1.50 reading glasses. They make my head hurt after awhile and are probably not much protection.
I've heard somebody makes a peel and stick reading glass dot you can put on your standard specs, but haven't looked for them as I just started wearing contacts again after a decade hiatus due to shingles in my right eye c. '98.
Thinking real hard about selling some stuff to put together a Glock slide unit milled for a Trij RMR.
Have a set of 10-8 wide sights that worked for about a year, but need to punch the rear out bigger to Old Man specs to see how that works.
Used to scoff at gunwriters who carped about their "aging eyes" but they were right.
Another option I've thought about keeping in the car is a set of combat specs or goggles with a right lens optimized for irons and/or scopes that will be there if I have time to get ready on the way to a dangerous situation.
We have a goodly portion of older officers in the same boat...30 year retirement and a lot of late bloomers like me.
My eyes were going at age 45 so I started using a fiber optic front sight on everything. When I retired from the PD, I got Lasik and had been using prescription glasses to shoot. The prescription was +.75 for the right and +1.25 for the left. I could see the sights and the target. When I got the Lasik I didn't tell the DR what that prescription was but he called out the SAME presciption to program the laser.
I don't use glasses now to shoot even 18 months later BUT the fiber optic is fuzzy.
I have "fiber optic night sights" on my duty/carry gun and Aimpoints on my rifles.
Its hard to read without reading glasses but I can still shoot in the sun without them. I'll be 55 in September...
A27257
Dan Goodwin
03-23-10, 10:32
So apparently Lasik or lens replacement surgery does nothing for the middle-aged eye thing? Bummer. Guess at my age it'd have to be lens replacement anyways if I did it.
Lens replacement like "Crystal Lens" could help short, mid, and long range vision BUT when the DR is a couple years older than I and says he is waiting, so will I!
tracker722
03-23-10, 16:36
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I'm only in my late 20s and my vision is bad due to poor genetics. Nearly everyone in my family needs glasses for something or the other.
I had always planned on getting Lasik but was hesitant and paranoid. My roomate who has had it done and now has perfect vision explained to me that it is painless, takes less than hour out of the office, and that I'd be back at work in a couple of days tops. He told me they have been doing some form of Lasik for the better part of 20 yrs now, and now in 2010 it is even easier and more convenient with the advances they have made in technology and science. I guess I am old school stubborn in the sense I strongly dislike going to doctors and hospitals for nearly everything that isn't an emergency.
I am strongly considering just getting it done in the coming months, because it is starting to effect my job performance. That, and I am just not happy with my genetic blessing of poor vision.
Lasik is a wonderful thing if it works.
One of the rookies I trained had terrible vision, she couldn't decide on a dominant eye to shoot with and it was a constant problem. She had lasik done and then told me about it. I went to see her DR on a Thursday night and had the surgery the next day I was so impressed. He offered an LE discount which brought the price to $3500 for life treatment AND got me 0% interest on what I couldn't pay up front. I would do it again tomorrow although I have heard of folks for whom it didn't work as well. I get dry eyes often but that might just be part of the aging problem as well. There are better prices out there now BUT make sure you get a GOOD Doctor and not a meat market processor!!
Got my appt. set for monday with the eye doctor. Going to check into the monovision contact. What say you ?? Brad
Brad, monovision may work if you shoot with both eyes open, or if the needed eye gets the correct contact for the job. No hurt in trying. There are just contacts.
To the original question: I found that I prefer a rear sight with no dots, just the black wall of choice. Even if the front dot is slightly blurry, your not distracted by two real blurry dots , followed by one blurry dot! I like staright eights because I barely notice the rear dot. And I too like fiber optic or TFO's as well.
pb
update - I went to the doc. yesterday. seems I have presbyopia and farsightedness. I did bring my slide with warren rear and .115 f.o. front. He put me in contacts. He didn't say it was monovision but, one side is for distance and the other for close up. I have to go back on 4/6 for another set because he didn't want to put me at full strength from day 1. Right now anything 18" to 24" is great and no distortion at distance. I did try looking thru my H-1 and there is a little "star" around the dot but, no double. For right now just feels good to see a clean front sight. Would be great to hear from some others. Thanks Brad
I forgot to add this. Kyle Defoor has come out with a set of pistol sights. Wide rear, skinny front, black on black. I have noticed that alot of the really great shooters prefer black on black. I am going to order a set for one of my G-17's and give them a try. Thanks again Brad
sounds like mono and sounds like a good setup.
Middle-aged presbyopia can certainly compromise the ability to see the front sight on traditional sights. Using bright reflective tape can help, but is not a panacea: http://pistol-training.com/articles/the-johno-diy-high-visibility-front-sight.
The use of a XS standard dot or Big Dot front sight coupled with a rear sight having an enlarged U-shaped notch in the 0.160-0.200" range can be of benefit.
Likewise, some folks love the XS 24/7 Express Big Dot front and rear sight system for this issue, although some individuals can't seem to adapt well to the Express sight system on handguns.
Visible lasers, like the CTC Lasergrips, can be another useful adjunct.
One of the best options is the use of a red-dot sight on a handgun. As noted in a few other threads, some of the older SWAT guys have been using mini-RDS on their handguns for a couple of years, as have some military SOF personnel:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49465
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/661109475
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45196
Rosco Benson
04-01-10, 09:02
I've used reading glasses for 10+ years now. My distance vision is still just fine. I tried using the stick-on bifocal lenses on the upper inside portion of my plain shooting glasses (right lens only). It worked, in terms of being able to clearly focus on the front sight, but the disparity between the two eyes just felt weird and the glasses were fine for games but impractical for the real world.
I've found that having something highly visible on the front sight (white ring around the tritium vial, et cetera) and a wide enough rear notch to allow plenty of light on either side of the post is working for now. My Weaver stance has become less "Weavery" as I've started squaring up more to the target and pushing the pistol farther out from my eyes. I can't stand the "fully-out, elbows locked" thing that some advocate, but my front sight is now a bit farther out and I can see it well enough for good results.
My days of plain black .125 width front sight and .125 rear notch sights are pretty much over.
Rosco
I know this, you are going to see the right the OD or MD. they are spending good time with you. Good luck.
Visible lasers, like the CTC Lasergrips, can be another useful adjunct.
This one really helped my Dad. He is in his 70's, and with extreme far-sightedness plus astigmatism, he could not get a good focus on pistol sights at all. He was so frustrated he was about ready to give up and sell his pistols.
Then he discovered the CT grips, and now thanks to the laser sight, he's back shooting pistols again.
older...guys and I listened up. (13 Presidents) some mor'n once.
Hi Doc :)
I have been thinking RDS for my M&P 45.
Are we "there yet" in terms of good enough for serious work, and if so, what is your opinion of the current best solution?
Thanks
Below are our thoughts to date on this topic using Glocks, M&P's, and 1911's with mini-RDS.
RDS's definitely work well on handguns. For duty/CCW use, I believe I would only carry one of the mini-red dot sights if it is milled into the slide and adequate BU sighting capability is available.
T1/H1 will work, but are a bit big for service pistols; however, they work great on game guns and big bore revolvers.
Least costly is the J-Point/original Trijicon RDS--these have proven reasonably effective, especially for the price and the rear notch can acts as a BU iron sight in conjunction with the stock front sight:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w24/bladeandwand/MandP/DSC01341.jpg
Trijicon RMR (LED model) appears to be the most rugged of the bunch so far, BU iron sight use can be enhanced be scribing the back of the slide like David Bowie is doing in conjunction with a taller front sight:
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/sitebuilder/images/RMR_3-526x391.jpg
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/sitebuilder/images/RMR_co_witness-126x234.jpg
My favorite to date is the ITI mini-RDS, as it has an on-off switch, top loading battery, and variable light intensity, however long term durability is still unknown and it is not as easy to set-up for BIS; you can run a tall front sight and use the whole RDS sight like a large ghost ring or use Lasergrips as a BU sighting device.
montanadave
04-03-10, 08:05
RDS's definitely work. For serious use, I believe I would only carry one of the mini-red dot sights if it is milled into the slide and adequate BU sighting capability is available.
Any initial thoughts regarding the FNP-45 Tactical which is supposed to be hitting the market any time now?
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4666&stc=1&d=1270299482
Please let's not lose sight ( no pun intended) of the fact that even if you do not need glasses for vision correction, everyone must use protective lenses at all times when on the range or when you know you will be shooting, such as hunting.
Some of the above posts sound like people may not be using them. This is a big mistake. I have eye problems, too complicated to detail here, and I can assure you that eye surgery is not fun and the eye and vision are very complex to correct. Avoiding injury is the best action to take.
Please, please, wear protective lenses at all times.:cool:
"Any initial thoughts regarding the FNP-45 Tactical which is supposed to be hitting the market any time now?"
Unfortunately, I can't offer you much, as no major agencies here have them so there is no track record or data that has been amassed.
DocGKR,
Thanks for the reply.
Going to kick this off again with some things I have learned in the last 4 months. (1) once this starts nothing is going to be like it use to be ? (2) for me contacts suck ! they did make things better but, I work outside and the dust and allergies make things rough (3) I tried 4 sets of contacts and could'nt get things right (4) If you like to shoot and your eyes have started "aging" your going to spend some money to find out what works for you. I gave up on the contact guru and found and optomoligist who has been around awhile (he is 75). I paid for another eye exam and brought my trijicon,h-1, and glock slide. After the exam and a great conversation with my "toys" the doct. told me "son, all you need is a little magnification". For me 1.25 is what is needed for 22 to 24 inches(frony sight). He gave me a script for 1.0. I took that to wally-world picked out a set of sport frames and had them put in a set of tinted readers. I now have a set of wrap arounds with 1.0 lenses that are tinted. Life is great- I get good clarity on my front sight and distance is not blurred. I shot a steel match this past week-end with a set of defoor sights and things went very well. Some of the older shooters were trying them on a could'nt get over how good they were. Sorry to make such a long post but, I hope this might help someone else on the same journey.
I'm presbyopic with normal distance vision. It's certainly possible to get shooting glasses with bifocal reading inserts. The problem is that they are all at the bottom of the safety lens meaning you have to tip your head back to see. They don't work for shooting. I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars for custom shooting glasses for the kind of environment I shoot in (not conducive to long life of expensive glasses).
There's a product called Optx 20/20. OPTX 20/20 HydroTac Reading Lenses Attach to Glasses, +1.50 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LZUX9U/ref=oss_product) It's a soft plastic lens in varying strengths that stick onto a lens hydrostatically. I normally need 3 diopters to read, but 1.5 diopters is a great compromise for seeing the front sight of a handgun without totally blurring out the target. I stuck one of these lenses on the inside of my shooting glasses up high on the lens of my dominant eye only. Works great. $13 for a pair. Bought 'em on Amazon. They stick in a very wide variety of conditions, including both sweating on a 100 degree range and in a steaming downpour.
http://mccollister.info/glasses.jpg
HMAC, the bifocal glasses did'nt work for me . they're great for reading, but did'nt work for me shooting. That's why I went with the whole lense magnified. It's great what you worked out with the stick -ons. This was why I started this post to see what has worked for others so someone else may benefit from their experiences. Thanks for your response. Also, that mrds milled onto my glock is looking more appealin g. - Brad W
I had 20/10 vision and when I broke my back I had a reaction to a medication that destroyed my eyes ability to focus at short distances. I could focus with great effort and then my eyes would snap to far. Really annoying.
I started with ESS glasses with RX insert in wire frame. I am curse-eye dominant shoot righthand/lefteye... so see thru top outside corner of lens. First I had them set up the left lens with the "optical focal point" in the top left corner... bad idea... drove me nuts except when eye was focused on front sight. Changed the "optical focal point" to center and it worked well for shooting and moving, but even with mild correction the inserts gave fishbowl effect, were too far from eyes creating narrow field of view and heavy & also "forward heavy" wanting to jump off nose and you would get light bounce between the dual lenses, especially indoors and specular light bounce from the chrome wire frames (they do have black plastic tho thicker) and you now have 2 sets of lenses to fog and no way of easily defogging or cleaning the insert. (ESS cust/service was terrible FYI)
I then decided I needed focus in my peripheral vision for better target transitions and movement and to dump the Robo-Cop glasses setup:p Contacts! (& Oakleys lovem) I used them for IDPA and they worked great except for the occasional fogging from dry eyes. The dry eyes are from having contacts & "correctly" not blinking and following the front sight, not from a genetic propensity to dry eyes. Then started shooting Multigun with long strings of fire and weapon transitions, etc. and kept eyes open even loooonger and had Hozer in Pueblo telling me during COFs..."Uhh, you can shoot now, uhh why aren't you shootin?" Me, "I'm waiting for my contacts to unblurr... timer is running:eek:" The contacts go dry and BLURROUT! Now what...
I had been interested in the Oakleys with RX built into a shield type lens but from photos was afraid they would be too similar to the RX inserts behind the lens as the photos made them look small, i.e narrow field of view in focus. I had a British soldier who uses them let me try his RX M-Frames on just to see the RX field of view and it seems great:) Pray, Pray, Pray! I will be ordering a set of Oakley Radar Path lenses with RX inserts next and tell you how they work. (when I can afford them:mad:$$$)
My eyes have gotten soft focus now for FAR also, so now I have to compromise or have pistol RX & long range RX or stick with all around but not great Mid-Range RX(going this route)
If I tried different L/R "eye specific" RX I would be screwed as I need for pistol FAR right eye and CLOSE left eye and the opposite for RDS on rifle:rolleyes: I know it gives me a headache too just thinking about all this. :confused:
Hope this helps someone:p
I had LASIK back in 98 and went from a +5.0 left and +5.25right to 20/15 in both eyes. I'm 46 now and have started having to use readers up close when my eyes are tired. Mainly later in the afternoon and at night when I'm reading. Distance vision is still great. I think a lot of the vision problems I'm having now are due to being on a computer most of the day. Really tires the eyes out. So far sights are still clear. I have been reading about LASIK for near sightedness, I think that is the term for not being able to see up close, and how it is having better and better results. Maybe that will be an option in the future.
My brother could barely see the front sight without glasses. He put a Trijicon red dot on his Glock, practiced for awhile, and received a "Distinguished Graduate" at his next training class.
It helped him ALOT!
I had LASIK back in 98 and went from a +5.0 left and +5.25right to 20/15 in both eyes. I'm 46 now and have started having to use readers up close when my eyes are tired. Mainly later in the afternoon and at night when I'm reading. Distance vision is still great. I think a lot of the vision problems I'm having now are due to being on a computer most of the day. Really tires the eyes out. So far sights are still clear. I have been reading about LASIK for near sightedness, I think that is the term for not being able to see up close, and how it is having better and better results. Maybe that will be an option in the future.
No, working on a computer and "tired eyes" has nothing to do with it... And near-sightedness has nothing to do with it either. You are developing presbyopia. The ligaments and lenses of your eyes responsible for focusing are losing flexibility, so you increasingly will lose the ability to close-focus. Good that you can still focus on the front sight...unfortunately, that will change and you will need reading glasses just like all the rest of us middle-aged guys.
Likely your ability to still focus on the front sight is a function of your ophthalmologist slightly undercorrecting you when you had your LASIK. That was smart on his part.
Lik
Here are a couple of ideas. Although, only practical for the range.
1. http://optx2020.com/
2. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0024296711125a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=144&Ntt=shooting+glasses&Ntk=Products&sort=all&Go.y=11&selectedPerPage=72&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form1&Go.x=16
3. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0011336311988a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&sort=all&QueryText=glasses&Ntk=Products&Go.y=7&selectedPerPage=72&Nty=1&hasJS=true&No=216&N=0&firstPage=true&Go.x=18&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1
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