View Full Version : Health care bill passes..I am p.o.'d
I've been curious about this all day and I am lying on the couch listening to XM radio and I hear that this @#$% bill has passed. I've had discussions/arguments with guys at work. They are asking me why I am so dead set against this bill. I think it was the talk show host Andrew Wilkow described it best. He said this bill is like a skeleton to add so many other provisions onto it and yes possibly even different forms of gun control. Even if the Republicans take back the House and Senate and new bills are proposed to defeat this Obama will never sign it into law. So we are at least stuck with this until the next P.O.T.U.S. election. Heck we are going to start getting our money taken out of our wallets to pay for this almost immediately. But the 'benefits' don't kick in until 2014 I believe. Where is our country going?!?! Love to hear everyone's thoughts.
Well, I got to thinking of what to do next . .. . after a flury of . . . thoughts I quickly dismissed. A real solution might be to take it local, like to the states.
http://statesmansentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/US-Map.jpg
Saw this map of states that are moving of Firearms Freedom Acts over here: http://statesmansentinel.com/2010/03/rebellion-in-america-heats-up-as-5th-state-exempts-guns/ and it occurs to me that we might be able to get a grassroots thing started to step up and tell the Feds to bugger off with their healthcare B.S. Shoot, the polls have been showwing for months that We The People strongly oppose the health care nightmare. Maybe we could get our state legislators fired up to fire off a round of State's Rights across Obama's bow.
As posted above, our only chance is in the states taking up the fight...cause the federal level politicians sure as hell aren't listening.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"......The 10th amendment. That is our only hope I believe.
Belmont31R
03-22-10, 00:13
Given SCOTUS precedence I doubt it will be struck down. They tend to rule based on past court rulings, and not so much what the Constitution says. A couple bad rulings in the past has forever damned the idea of state's rights.
What can you say other than its a huge shit sandwich, and we are all going to be eating off it for the rest of our lives. Going to be harder to find work due to employer mandates and fines, "rich people" (aka employers) are going to take more precaution in even hiring people, national debt will go up as this entire package is already running a debt (they split up the entire "package" so they could get the main bill a good CBO number), more people will be beholden to government for basic living, and last but not least the march towards complete socialism is seeing the end of the road on the horizon. Lets face it....you can be poor here, get free food, a place to live, a car, free complete health care here, and never contribute a positive dollar to society your whole life. That is socialism. The gov is taking over student loans, and quickly gaining near complete control over banks.
Next "waypoint" along this road is making retirement accounts "public" as there is NO WAY to pay for all this crap. The gov is going to have to do something in the next 5-20 years to start actually paying on this. Higher taxes, retirement accounts become public, rationing of services, etc. Look at how Europe pays for these programs. High income taxes, 20 sales taxes, 8-10 dollars a gallon of gas, less people go to secondary education, medical care is worse, unemployment and economic growth has historically been pretty far behind the US with stagnant unemployment, etc. Look to doctors to become public employees as a means to control costs along with nurses, techs, etc. Basically a VA system for everyone. This will come along as more and more doctors leave medicine do to the hassles, lower pay, and government regulations. As hospitals go out of business they will be taken over by the gov, and staffed with these gov medical people.
This is nothing new in the rest of the world. Just look around at how other socialist countries are paying for their systems, and what their society is like. Even with all their revenue generators we have yet to institute here they are struggling to pay for it, and always been propped up with trade to the US along with tourism, etc. Look at how many people are reliant on public transportation in Europe because they can't afford to own a car. Much higher than here where public transportation is limited to metro areas, and even then is nothing compared to Europe.
The ONLY way to keep this from happening here is to keep progressives out of office be they democrats or republicans. Many republicans are pro entitlement, and will never do away with the social spending that is driving us to bankruptcy.
NO. We just got kicked pretty darn hard, that doesn't mean it is time to lay down and die. We can fight this. We have too many people who have sacrificed too much for us to just . . . throw up our hands in despair and say "oh, I guess Obama won and America lost". NO! That is NOT good enough.
DocHolliday01
03-22-10, 00:23
The picture on the front of Fox News' website makes me ****ing sick. What a piece of shit. http://www.foxnews.com/
we're toast.
carry on.
Agreed. Work hard, save your money, and get the **** out of this place.
The picture on the front of Fox News' website makes me ****ing sick. What a piece of shit. http://www.foxnews.com/
Well if you get sick you've got the doctor's bill taken care of (helluva a lot of sarcasm with that statement).......makes me @#$%&"# sick too brother.
NO. We just got kicked pretty darn hard, that doesn't mean it is time to lay down and die. We can fight this. We have too many people who have sacrificed too much for us to just . . . throw up our hands in despair and say "oh, I guess Obama won and America lost". NO! That is NOT good enough.
How do you think most of the conservative Americans felt during the times of FDRs takeovers? This shit isn't going to be repealed We dont' have to lay down and die, but we can adapt.
organdonor
03-22-10, 00:36
As posted above, our only chance is in the states taking up the fight...cause the federal level politicians sure as hell aren't listening.Not gonna happen with all the federal money in most state's pockets these days.
parishioner
03-22-10, 00:39
By all means, Obama wants health care to be his legacy. He is touching himself to the notion of people in the future associating Health care with his name. I, however, hope for his name to be synonymous with something much different.
organdonor
03-22-10, 00:44
By all means, Obama wanted health care to be his legacy. He is touching himself to the notion of people in the future associating Health care with his name. I ,however, hope for his name to be synonymous with something much different.Well, you can rest assured that it will be a colossal failure... as with most things government-run. I'm not sure whether or not most people advocating this bill realize it or not, but... we've had a couple of social health care programs in place for a while now and they're both bankrupt, miserable failures. Knowing that, I can't begin to imagine how anyone could believe that this will turn out any differently.
Well said, but fell on deaf ears. The only good thing to come out of this will be the Dems being voted out in mass numbers.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4118241/boehner-shame-on-us
parishioner
03-22-10, 00:45
we've had a couple of social health care programs in place for a while now and they're both bankrupt, miserable failures. Knowing that, I can't begin to imagine how anyone could believe that this will turn out any differently.
I agree.
organdonor
03-22-10, 00:48
Well said, but fell on deaf ears. The only good thing to come out of this will be the Dems being voted out in mass numbers.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4118241/boehner-shame-on-usAlong the same "silver lining" lines, here's an article anyone looking for a bright side to this might enjoy: http://avenue411.com/tapatriot/content/socializing-health-care-passes-day-celebration-conservatives
Social Security broke. Medicare broke. Medicaid broke. Nation broke. Now Obama will sign this into law. Good grief.
Just got to work hard this summer and Fall voting out everyone who voted for this. Especially the pro-life group who had voted NO originally.
The radical left will be targeting those Democrats like this pro-life group (even though they voted for it) as well as the Democrats who voted NO. This will be in the primaries. If they succeed, it should make it easier for the Republicans to capture those seats.
Now we just got to work on getting non liberal non progressive Republicans to run.
Steelblitz
03-22-10, 01:25
The bitch about this is, they got nothing to lose now. Watch out through November for them to ram through amnesty, cap&trade, whatever other social/progressive/communist agendas, including guncontrol.
Unfortunately this country continues on a decline. Remember who voted for this and make sure they are not re-elcted.
Cascades236
03-22-10, 01:47
Wait, you guys don't like to work hard to support other peoples children?
Well, you can rest assured that it will be a colossal failure... as with most things government-run. I'm not sure whether or not most people advocating this bill realize it or not, but... we've had a couple of social health care programs in place for a while now and they're both bankrupt, miserable failures. Knowing that, I can't begin to imagine how anyone could believe that this will turn out any differently.
But this will be a new kind of failure.
It will be a failure of lost opportunities for the health of all mankind.
According to many experts we are on the cusp of enormous and radical advances in medical treatment, almost all of which are propelled by the profit motive and the relatively-free market.
We won't even know what benefits we have just thrown away.
I cant say im for this nor can I say im against it because I dont understand it nor have I followed this. I agree everyone deserves healthcare, but I also think everyone needs a job. Also the insurance companies are just charging way too much by state. Like my company for example. In New York state. I live in ohio. I should have to pay ohio premiums not NY. I work hard for what I have and I over pay for what I dont use.
So what are the pros and cons of this bill passing? I ask because I dont understand this issue. I understand the government really cant afford to take on any more projects until the rest are finished. like eh hem.. Iraq, Afghanistan. Alot of money being spent over there. I know, I served over there till a mortar had my name.
so why is everyone upset over this bill?
Archer
The bitch about this is, they got nothing to lose now. Watch out through November for them to ram through amnesty, cap&trade, whatever other social/progressive/communist agendas, including guncontrol.
Exactly. I think we've shown our hand too soon. We might be getting ****ed, harder, for that in the near future.
I cant say im for this nor can I say im against it because I dont understand it nor have I followed this. I agree everyone deserves healthcare, but I also think everyone needs a job. Also the insurance companies are just charging way too much by state. Like my company for example. In New York state. I live in ohio. I should have to pay ohio premiums not NY. I work hard for what I have and I over pay for what I dont use.
So what are the pros and cons of this bill passing? I ask because I dont understand this issue. I understand the government really cant afford to take on any more projects until the rest are finished. like eh hem.. Iraq, Afghanistan. Alot of money being spent over there. I know, I served over there till a mortar had my name.
so why is everyone upset over this bill?
Archer
Go do a little research.
Just FYI: Those states which tend to have higher health insurance costs have laws that cause the rates to be higher -- they have community rating, they have large lists of mandated coverages, etc. All these things jack up rates.
The average profit margin for health insurance companies is less than 4%. Many are non profits. This is not a greedy insurance company issue. Govt action has forced health insurance rates to go up wildly. It will only get worse.
I am not an expert nor in this line of work, but if your company is based in New York but you live and work in Ohio, they should be offering you insurance based on Ohio rates. I would ask your state insurance regulatory office about this. And your HR department. Each state regulates its own insurance market (currently) and I don't believe you can legally purchase insurance that is written for NY. Obviously I am missing something because they are doing it but then your rates should be based on Ohio. See if your company offers a high deductible plan together with an HSA -- you may save a lot of money depending on your circumstances.
The bitch about this is, they got nothing to lose now. Watch out through November for them to ram through amnesty, cap&trade, whatever other social/progressive/communist agendas, including guncontrol.
May be so, but I doubt it. They will be trying really really hard to spin this as a positive. They don't want to put more gasoline on the fire than they already have. They hope people forget by Nov (fat chance).
The bitch about this is, they got nothing to lose now. Watch out through November for them to ram through amnesty, cap&trade, whatever other social/progressive/communist agendas, including guncontrol.
Could have the opposite effect if we push back hard enough. The scramble to keep jobs (in congress), the scramble to avoid being the fifth representitive to get lynched, the scramble to keep job approval ratings over 2%.
America has just been betrayed. Shoot, this is AS BIG as Pearl Harbor in terms of WAKE UP call.
It was said and will be again, NOBODY was happy with this bill before it was passed. It pissed the left off for not going straight to Lenin, it pissed the right off for . . . there is a list, a long, long list. Folks in the middle, wel , they may not know much, but they know that Congress could have been doing something besides Effing up the economy worse. Instead of doing a dang thing for jobs, unemployment, the economy in general, they have been engaged in this self mastrubatory exercise & EVERYBODY feels that. So when the bill nobody was happy with becomes the law that nobody will see any benefit from til 2014 & meanwhile it will cost them in a way that is bad for numerous sections of the economy . . . well, the silver lining may be that anything remotely smelling like a democrat will never see a re-election. May take five or nine years to get the country back on track . . . but this is shot heard 'round the world time. Democrat Congress just declared war on the United States!
May be so, but I doubt it. They will be trying really really hard to spin this as a positive. They don't want to put more gasoline on the fire than they already have. They hope people forget by Nov (fat chance).
Click any news link. He's said multiple times he's not concerned about his political future.
Alpha Sierra
03-22-10, 05:56
Click any news link. He's said multiple times he's not concerned about his political future.
Maybe Obama isn't, but many (most) of congress is.
ThirdWatcher
03-22-10, 06:08
I HATE socialism... capatalism isn't perfect but it's the best system I know of.
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
As of late it all sounds a bit less like yesterday, and more like today.
Defund the whole suicide machine, it's the only way to do it. When the Republicans get back in, all they've got to do is introduce a budget with road, post office, and military funding at the appropriate tax rate. If nobody wants to sign that, then I guess we aren't having a budget. Sorry, better luck next year.
Okay, they passed it. Against our will. The tyranny is overwhelming. We need to take to the streets. NO work, nothing until this abortion is rescinded. If the country as a whole were to stop, protest and make noise until they hear us, they will back off. Burt it takes us to do more than just bellyache. This is serious, it will affect us and the Founding Fathers did more for less. We can complain and enjoy our luxuries until we are completely enslaved or we can put our lives and possessions on the line to protect freedom's flame.
Spread the word like a modern day Paul Revere. Next week, the work stops. Everywhere. Lets take to the streets and make our voices heard and respected.
John_Wayne777
03-22-10, 07:12
Well said, but fell on deaf ears. The only good thing to come out of this will be the Dems being voted out in mass numbers.
That fills me with precisely zero confidence since there is ample precedent that Republicans are largely ineffective against a liberal president who has the backing of the entire press corps.
At best November offers us a chance to stop any further stupidity like amnesty and other horrifically bad policy ideas. I have little confidence that the Republicans can overturn this nonsense or create a positive momentum that begins to truly solve our nation's problems.
Click any news link. He's said multiple times he's not concerned about his political future.
Why should he be? He has the institution of the press entirely in his pocket and a fundamental belief that the American people are stupid...a belief that has considerable merit given the way the man was elected.
Nathan_Bell
03-22-10, 07:55
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYUeBnitz7nU&pos=2
AAA going, going, gone...
GermanSynergy
03-22-10, 08:00
Okay, they passed it. Against our will. The tyranny is overwhelming. We need to take to the streets. NO work, nothing until this abortion is rescinded. If the country as a whole were to stop, protest and make noise until they hear us, they will back off. Burt it takes us to do more than just bellyache. This is serious, it will affect us and the Founding Fathers did more for less. We can complain and enjoy our luxuries until we are completely enslaved or we can put our lives and possessions on the line to protect freedom's flame.
Spread the word like a modern day Paul Revere. Next week, the work stops. Everywhere. Lets take to the streets and make our voices heard and respected.
Sorry- anyone taking such a course would be branded a right wing nutcase by the Stalinist press. The govt doesn't care about what the general electorate wants. Those on the dole, here illegally and the lazy have the ear of this current group, no one else.
Shadow1198
03-22-10, 08:03
I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth; banks are going bust; shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter; punks are running wild in the street, and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it.
We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat. And we sit watching our TVs while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be!
We all know things are bad -- worse than bad -- they're crazy.
It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out any more. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we're living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, "Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials, and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone."
Well, I'm not going to leave you alone.
I want you to get mad!
I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot. I don't want you to write to your Congressman, because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street.
All I know is that first, you've got to get mad.
You've gotta say, "I'm a human being, goddammit! My life has value!"
So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell,
"I'm as mad as hell,
and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxxhPKSeMR0 Let the glorious uproar of freedom begin. :mad:
The amount of god worship going on right now makes pretty much all media outlets unreadable today.
PrivateCitizen
03-22-10, 09:48
It isn't about voting anymore. And it was never about insurance.
This was about establishing a bureaucracy that CAN'T be voted out.
I may have to look at campaigning for pols in other states. Here in Idaho we can't do or send anyone else. Even our Dem rep voted NO from the beginning.
And, Archer78 … WTH, man? After a year and a half of front page news you pay attention just now? After the vote? Good Grief!
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-22-10, 09:52
I know we don't know the details, but what are the big things in the bill right now?
I've seen
-Insurance madate or a fine: I don't see that going over well until I saw a blurb that families making up to $80k/yr will get help (who from??).
-Medicare changes- don't see this popular with seniors.
-Reduced payments to doctors and hospitals: not an immediate effect on things until it affects quality of facilites and care.
-Higher taxes on $250k earners in form of medicare taxes and some kind of capital gains tax?
-No restiction on previous health conditions: If this goes lock step with the mandate it might not be so bad, but if all the sick guys join insurance rates will go thru the roof.
-No real tort reform?
Just saw this link on Drudge about the tax and cost implications.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ake7tOWwUT6E
Lots of cuts taken at the dollars in my pocket.
Sorry- anyone taking such a course would be branded a right wing nutcase by the Stalinist press. The govt doesn't care about what the general electorate wants. Those on the dole, here illegally and the lazy have the ear of this current group, no one else.
Oh my goodness, that would hurt SOOOO much! If over half of the country would just come to a screeching halt, they would have no choice but to rescind. Simple economics would dictate it. Folks, the existence of the freedom our Fathers fought for is being taken away under our noses. They will nibble us to death until we are slaves and "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others".
I don't want to wait decades for this thing to wind its way through the courts, where it will probably be upheld anyway. I don't want this thing breathing any longer than it has to. Kill it NOW, before the cancer spreads!
Preferred User
03-22-10, 09:59
This was rather telling for me. My neighbor is a neurologist and moved here from Germany. His comment after this passed, I guess since there is now socialized medicine and specialists will be working for free both here and Germany, I will move back to Germany. At least there I am closer to family and better skiing.
BTW RootBeer where in Idaho? I will be in your fine State this afternoon for a few days.
I'm going to raise my rates to help cover what is going to be taken. This rogue government is totally out of control. Owebama is already working on amnesty, that hit the news last night. They've got to shore up their voting block before 11/2010.
Did anyone catch the left's puppeteer Pelosi's comment after Boehner suggesting that this is obama's bill? It just struck me odd that she put all the glory for this bill on obama, that's not like her. I may be looking at this wrong but it seemed to me that they are preparing to throw oweby man under the bus when crap hits the fan. I recorded that segment, I'll have to view that again.
PrivateCitizen
03-22-10, 10:14
I know we don't know the details, but what are the big things in the bill right now?
I've seen
-Insurance madate or a fine: I don't see that going over well until I saw a blurb that families making up to $80k/yr will get help (who from??).
Me, my wife, and our sole proprietor small business, apparently.
-Medicare changes- don't see this popular with seniors.
-Reduced payments to doctors and hospitals: not an immediate effect on things until it affects quality of facilites and care.
-Higher taxes on $250k earners in form of medicare taxes and some kind of capital gains tax?
-No restiction on previous health conditions: If this goes lock step with the mandate it might not be so bad, but if all the sick guys join insurance rates will go thru the roof.
-No real tort reform?
Included on the NON-health related front:
ALL college tuition loans now MUST be given by the Fed. It is illegal for banks to loan money for college. (Except one bank in ND, which got a tidy little earmark/exception).
Got kids? Expect getting a federal loan if they want to go to college.
Yup.
What this has to do with healthcare I've got no idea.
ForTehNguyen
03-22-10, 10:21
insurance company payments (they are actually good on their money) are the only thing keeping doctors from operating at a loss. Without insurance companies doctors would operate at a loss due to Medicare/Medicaid's constant lowballing of reimbursements, and its going to get even worse under this new system. Feel sorry for the seniors that are getting screwed on Medicare after paying into the system for decades.
Watch within the next year, even more doctors and hospitals are going to quit taking Medicare. Many places have already.
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
- George Bernard Shaw
Preferred User
03-22-10, 10:37
Without insurance companies doctors would operate at a loss due to Medicare/Medicaid's constant lowballing of reimbursements, and its going to get even worse under this new system. Feel sorry for the seniors that are getting screwed on Medicare after paying into the system for decades.
Watch within the next year, even more doctors and hospitals are going to quit taking Medicare. Many places have already.It is not just the lowballing from M/M, the bigger issue is the time it takes to get reimbursed for services performed.
hopefully healthcare run by the gov't will get as screwed up as every other gov't run agency...take a number and with time, we'll get to you with the doctors and nurses that couldn't make it in the "real world"...
i like the fact that the general population will see the same "excellent healthcare" that we have experienced in the military services...it will "weed out" thousands of people, kind of like survival of the fittest...
the down side to all of this is the fact we'll have to use it as well and we, as taxpayers, get to foot the bill...
to the poster taking to the street, that would be great until they cart you away in a big military truck in handcuffs and declare martial law on the populace because the national security is at risk...this is the ultimate "shit sandwich", you eat it or starve...
Why should he be? He has the institution of the press entirely in his pocket and a fundamental belief that the American people are stupid...a belief that has considerable merit given the way the man was elected.
I was thinking about this over the weekend...
I'm sure you've seen some of the things that Bill Maher has said along those lines. I firmly believe that Barack Obama shares an identical sentiment, albeit with a slightly less overt overtone (an admittedly low bar to clear, however, given how blatant Maher is).
About tuition, not to mention once you get the free ride you are required to work for a government entity, basically for free for something like 6 years as a payback of sorts. As if college doesn't breed liberalism to begin with now everyone will be completely bought in.
But why go to school to get out and work for free. College is supposed to put you ahead to go and get good jobs...
I haven't been out for very long and couldn't imagine working as a civil servant for virtually no pay after going to school...doesn't make any sense to me.
Click any news link. He's said multiple times he's not concerned about his political future.
What they say in public and how they behave are two different things. I doubt they will try and fan the flames by pouring on every other hard to pass unwanted piece of legislation. At least this year. Trying to get their whole party to feel the same way is a lot harder than just getting BHO to make soundbites. The D Congressmen probably don't all feel that way.
From Andrew Napolitano:
Is there anything in the Constitution that empowers Congress to regulate health care or get between patients and their physicians or empower bureaucrats to tell physicians how to practice medicine? In a word, NO. Here is a kinky example. Last week, Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) collapsed in his apartment in Cliffside Park, N.J., a few miles south of the George Washington Bridge. When he called an ambulance and it arrived, he directed the driver to bring him to Mt. Sinai Hospital in New York City. That direction is today perfectly lawful. Under all three health care proposals (the Senate, House, and presidential versions), such a direction would be unlawful; as an ambulance would be forced to take a patient to the hospital closest to the patient; in Sen. Lautenberg’s case, a small community hospital a few blocks from his apartment. Sen. Lautenberg voted for the Senate proposal that would have denied him the free choice that probably saved his life.
Obviously this was posted right before the vote but it does have some good information in it. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/11/06/judge-andrew-napolitano-health-care-freedom-congress/
Congress recognizes no limits on its power. It doesn't care about the Constitution, it doesn't care about your inalienable rights. If this health care bill becomes law, America, life as you have known it, freedom as you have exercised it and privacy as you have enjoyed it will cease to be.
Tomorrow, the House of Representatives will vote on a 2,000 page bill to give the federal government the power to micromanage the health care of every single American. The bill will no doubt pass. It will raise your taxes, steal your freedom, invade your privacy, and ration your health care. Even the Republicans have introduced their version of Obamacare Lite. It, too, if passed, will compel employers to provide coverage, bribe the states to change their court rules, and tell insurance companies whom to insure.
We do not have two political parties in this country, America. We have one party; called the Big Government Party. The Republican wing likes deficits, war, and assaults on civil liberties. The Democratic wing likes wealth transfer, taxes, and assaults on commercial liberties. Both parties like power; and neither is interested in your freedoms. Think about it. Government is the negation of freedom. Freedom is your power and ability to follow your own free will and your own conscience. The government wants you to follow the will of some faceless bureaucrat.
When I recently asked Congressman James Clyburn, the third ranking Democrat in the House, to tell me "Where in the Constitution the federal government is authorized to regulate everyone's healthcare--, he replied that most of what Congress does is not authorized by the Constitution, but they do it anyway. There you have it. Congress recognizes no limits on its power. It doesn't care about the Constitution, it doesn't care about your inalienable rights, it doesn't care about the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights, it doesn't even read the laws it writes.
America, this is not an academic issue. If this health care bill becomes law, life as you have known it, freedom as you have exercised it, privacy as you have enjoyed it, will cease to be.
When Congress takes away our freedoms, they will be gone forever. What will you do to prevent this from happening?
People, we've had to clean this thread up already.
Advocating the overthrow of the US Government will get you banned.
ForTehNguyen
03-22-10, 11:39
even MSNBC is reporting polls that 61% are angry. It's smelling like Clinton's 1994 and Johnson's 1966 mid term election massacres all over again.
I feel like kicking a baby.
C4
lethal dose
03-22-10, 12:12
I feel like kicking a baby.
C4
Word.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2010/03/21/sot.boehner.pre.vote.speech.cnn?hpt=C2
I feel like kicking a baby.
C4
You can have peace with the knowledge that should that baby be injured by you kicking it, it'll be guaranteed to have "health care" at some point about 4 years from now.
EzGoingKev
03-22-10, 13:09
Included on the NON-health related front:
ALL college tuition loans now MUST be given by the Fed. It is illegal for banks to loan money for college. (Except one bank in ND, which got a tidy little earmark/exception).
Got kids? Expect getting a federal loan if they want to go to college.
Yup.
What this has to do with healthcare I've got no idea.
I don't understand why they can't pass some type of bill/mandate/whatever that prohibits non-related items like this from being added to bills. I already have the name for it, Non-Bullshit Reform.
As for health care being passed, I just cannot understand how these reps can justify this with up 76% of Americans against it. I could see if it more people supported it and there was enough of a leeway with undecideds but this is just BS.
We'll remember come November.
The bitch about this is, they got nothing to lose now.
Wrong.
thats it. ive had it. im heading overseas to stay.
I am just worried now they won't stop, representing the people be damned.
Don't hesitate to buy the guns you've always wanted now!
Advocating the overthrow of the US Dictatorship will get you banned.
FIFY.
I am just worried now they won't stop, representing the people be damned.
Amnesty for illegals will be next. Obama wasn't lying when he said that illegals wouldn't get health coverage. Because when he's done, they'll all be citizens. :rolleyes: So, he'll will look to throw another 12 million people on to the "30 million" that will now be covered.
Belmont31R
03-22-10, 13:51
I don't understand why they can't pass some type of bill/mandate/whatever that prohibits non-related items like this from being added to bills. I already have the name for it, Non-Bullshit Reform.
As for health care being passed, I just cannot understand how these reps can justify this with up 76% of Americans against it. I could see if it more people supported it and there was enough of a leeway with undecideds but this is just BS.
We'll remember come November.
Its simple. Inherent to far left ideology is the belief the people are stupid, and government knows best. That people don't know how to spend their money wisely, and how they see fit. That private industry is out there to screw the little man, and government is there to protect them.
Listen to what these little tyrants say. Pelosi recently made a comment about how once this passes we will see them as the saviors she thinks they are, and we are just too stupid to get it right now but we will.
These people also want their name attached to something as grandiose as SS, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. Obama wants his legacy to be the man who gave health care to the entire country. His ratings, the polls, the people, the fiscal state of the country be damned. He wants to be likened to FDR, Kennedy, Lincoln, etc.
FIFY.
Damn you're dumb.
Ron Paul speaks on the Health Care Plan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1UI21wL26I&feature=player_embedded#
i think ive really had enough of this administration. im leaving the military and hope others who refuse to take orders from this administration are willing to stand up for there believes. I will defend the constitution from ALL enemys. this includes obamma.
"To pay for the changes, the legislation includes more than $400 billion in higher taxes over a decade and cuts more than $500 billion from planned payments to hospitals, nursing homes, hospices and other providers that treat Medicare patients."
Cut and pasted directly from the last paragraph of the LONGGG AP news article this morning. I guess they hoped I wouldn't read that far. Their not talking Medicaid, their talking Medicare. Why is it that those less able to pay, our seniors, have to bare 55% of the burden of this reform. They worked hard and put their time in already. But we are going to take away from them so others get covered?
There is no reform in place to cut the cost of paying for illegal aliens charity care, but we can cut funding for our own citizens Medicare? May be the Seniors won't notice because the bill attempts to close the prescription coverage gap of $250 some dollars per year, is that what they thought?
As my daughter says "really...REALLY?" I think when those Dr, and hospital bills start rolling in our seniors will rather have them covered rather than the $250.
There is nothing in this legislation to cut the actual cost of medical care, it just provides ways to get someone else to pay for it. They hope that by covering the uninsured, the current uninsured will get preventive care thus becoming a healthier population and cutting the expensive emergency room and hospital charity care.
Anybody remember the HMO's of the 80's $0 Doctor visits, that was the idea behind them as well. It didn't work for the HMO's why do they think it's going to work now?
As far as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid etc being broke, if they hadn't taken the money collected for those funds and spent it elsewhere when times were good they wouldn't be broke now. NJ learned the hard way with the state pension system and the unemployment fund.
WHEN WILL THEY LEARN?
This thing is going to be a disaster sooner than they think. I can't imagine that they won't spend the money that is collected in taxes over the next few years before the benefits start. When they hit the outset of the benefits and there is no money to fund it (think Social Security) they will either have tax/seize everything that is not nailed down and/or print money like it is going out of style. Either way, we pretty much lose any savings/equity we may have as well as the bulk of our"disposable income".
Private health insurers will not last long under this plan. Once they are bankrupt, there will be only one option left. I wonder how may seniors that supported Obama and this plan realized that these naughty insurance companies provide their supplemental Medicare coverage that allows them to see good doctors and have all the care that they want./need at the provider of their choice. They will be back to bare bones Medicare soon. The rest of us will be in the same boat. I looked at our infant son this morning and warned him to stay healthy while I was watching the morning news.
EzGoingKev
03-22-10, 15:17
My feeling today is that this country has really gone to shit. I am just so disgusted with this going through and the fact that the next thing they will push through is amnesty for illegals with a plan to bring more in by the boatload.
I thought exactly the same thing when I noticed the newly appointed BANNED words under his new account name.
My question is.... what the F does FIFY mean? I would suppose that at least one of the "F"'s represents the big no-no word.... but I don't get it. I'm stupid when it comes to these letter code things that leave the mainstream!
Fixed It For You
Damn you're dumb.
I thought exactly the same thing, and then I noticed the newly appointed BANNED words under his new account name.
My question is.... what the F does FIFY mean? I would suppose that at least one of the "F"'s represents the big no-no word.... but I don't get it. I'm stupid when it comes to these letter code things that leave the mainstream!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways, back on target....
I really can not believe this happened, I know I listen to right wing biased radio and I admit to not really watching TV unless it starts with opening a NETFLIX package... so I guess I was sort of brainwashed that the GREAT majority of the country was up in arms AGAINST this.... this.... mess!
So how exactly does one get from the point of creating a govt. because of a king that did not rule for the good of the people and based on the wants and needs of the general populace... and take the new govt. that was born out of the disgust for this very issue... and in just a couple hundred years grow it into a monster that is (in my opinion) more outrageous than the one it was intended to replace?
So here we are, we are the descendants of the folks that created this country and created a system that was really and honestly supposed to ENSURE us the most minimal required government that was to be a mirror of the will of the majority of the people.
Some time along the way, this government grew so large and detached from the common folk of the land that there was a gap between the true desire of the people and the actions of the political figures.
As we have progressed (can you call it that?) in the last 60 years or so, this disparity between the body of the people and the monstrous body of the government has done nothing but grow wider.
I see it kind of like this, it seems that the richest folks have personal pull on political figures and the mass of poorer folks have found a way to convince the government that they are in great need and that the disparity is in some way the fault of the world around them and not caused by the decisions made from school age and onward.
So us that are making it, and working hard and raising families and supporting America sort of got the shaft once more. The rich will still be rich and fly in choppers and live in and drive in extravagant items that many look upon with awe. The poor will increase in their comfort of life, they will get the things that they have always depended on, and now many will get even more... Those us that did not smoke pot while failing high school.... those of us that did not graduate and say F school... I'm done! Those of us that did not say... that is too hard of work for too little money! Those of us that actually ate crow, and did anything and everything to get where we are at today while others around us fell into the "woe is me" mindset.... we will carry the burden.
Again, who cares? No one cares about me and my family... we have health ins, automobiles, brand name clothes and a vacation each summer. No one cares if the government reaches in and grads just a few more grand from my annual take home. I mean really, it will not kill me, Right? This is exactly how they see it.
I make $60,000 a year give or take. Let’s say in the end I bring home what, $3000 a month, times 12 months is right near $36,000 take home pay. I still pay PA 6% sales tax on everything I buy and do (aside from food/clothes). So maybe in 5 years I'll be making $70,000 a year and still bringing home the same $3,000 a month because trust me, I will be one the suckers paying for all of this insanity based entitlement!
I will tell you, I went to high school and did OK... average C-B grade student. I got out and went to a 2 year technical school while all my pals were getting their first real full time jobs and they were getting sport motorcycles and buying new Berretta GTZ cars while I drove a crappy 1980 Grand Prix with rust to school. But I got a degree, and that stupid piece of paper changed me from a manual labor $8 or $10 an hour kind of guy to a entry level $14 an hour kind of guy that was getting raises in the beginning that were often $1.50-$2.00 an hour in the first 5 years. By the time I was 27 or 28 I was making $24 an hour and raising a family. Most of pals... yes I still know most.... they work for plumbers or sale cars or do whatever... and they mostly look at me like I'm a rich piece of shit.
I'm not rich, you all know that... I'm broke as a joke paying for my life with a wife and 3 children and still trying to play gun shooter on weekends! But, why is it that my pals that were too stupid to get it in high school... and too stupid to get it after high school..... Why the hell is it that you or I should provide them with jack shit? Call me a dick if you want, but if you can't find a way to make it and your going down hard.... I feel for you... I really do feel for you and your family that you’re taking down with you.... but stay the hell away from me and my family! Don't grab onto my wallet and pull me down there with you! You made your choices, I made mine. All along the way we made choices, maybe mine panned out better than I deserve... maybe yours panned out a little worse... not my fault or problem!
But alas, now it is all my fault and all my problem. Along with millions of others just like me, we will be the support net that many folks require too be "happy". I say happy because trust me (and again, many of you know this to be very true!) humans do not require a whole heck of a lot to survive. A bit of semi-clean water, a bit of food....plants, bugs, rodents.... and you will live just fine. But there is that whole entitlement thing where the poor want to live just the same as I live. They want a nice place to live (in subsidized housing), they want a nice variety of good tasting and nutritious foods (food stamps) and they want warmth in the winter without needing to go find wood and maintain a fire that may be unsafe.... (Assistance with utilities), and you know what, if they lay in that warm house and smoke a pack a day (welfare provides well, doesn't it!) and get cancer.... they want to go to my doctor and get treated just the same as me... Welfare/ObamaCare).
Honestly, I don't want to provide you or your family health care any more than you wish to send me check on the 1st of each month for $100. You don't care about me any more than the next Joe-Blow you pass on the sidewalk.... and this is exactly how it should be! You worry about you and yours and I my good sir will worry about me and mine.
So, where does our government go from here? How does it even begin to throttle back and get back on target? Will we eventually transition into a bonafide socialist government or will the big-wigs realize what has been happening and allow themselves to be restrained as well as allow some of the massively overgrown government to be torn away and restructured?
What scares me most is that last paragraph. I have a feeling that I know the answer, and in 50 years....god forbid... our children may be facing a total "rise" to communism.
I personally feel very helpless and small, there is nothing I can say or do that will have even a tiny effect on this, I am truly less meaningful than dust in the wind. God help us, and hope that together we can find a way to vote this shit straight. I just hope we get political choices that can somehow help us (the average-Joe's) get some semblance of reprieve from this direction that our nation is heading.
For today we are still the United States, and we are still the one to be envied by the entire world. How long this remains is up to all of us. I believe that we may yet be able to get this fixed, hopefully quickly, but if not, 2012 is coming and maybe it is finally time for a change you can believe in.
Get Obama the hell out!
(PS - Sorry if I spell for shit, I typed this pretty quickly and I admit to not being the best speller!)
Cascades236
03-22-10, 16:58
^ excellent post.
Screw all of us that worked for what we have. Screw all of us that didn't have children until we could be financially responsible for them.
I don't have kids... and I certaintly don't want to raise anyone elses.
^ excellent post.
Screw all of us that worked for what we have. Screw all of us that didn't have children until we could be financially responsible for them.
I don't have kids... and I certaintly don't want to raise anyone elses.
You dont have to raise them, just pay for their WIC food, and now their health care.
When articles about this bill mention the "previously uninsured with pre-existing conditions will now be able to get coverage", I fear they are mostly talking about the morbidly obese, lazy, listless, apathetic, ignorant lowlifes that infest the many parts of the country who cannot speak proper English, spend beyond their means, eat junk day in and day out, breed when they are incapable of supporting themselves let alone their young, are in no way marketable and yet, still have the gall to wonder and "think" (term used loosely) "What else we gon do? They ain't hiring us?" when asked why they prey upon citizens who have some semblance of normalcy in their lives with the multitude of crimes they perpetrate. If you have ever lived in a metropolitan area then you may have a clue as to whom I refer.
We have already been supporting these types for the better part of a few decades, but in the near future, it will be "the law".
Admittedly, I am not that savvy on the practices of insurance companies prior to this legislation, but denying the aformentioned is good business practice, denying coverage to someone actually born with a "x" disease beyond their (and their parents) control isn't right either. However, with the aforementioned, it is a disease of the mind and the will.
On the topic of social security funds, I have read that it started when Nixon used the funds to finance the Vietnam War. It has also been used to finance subsequent wars and police actions or whatever terms they gave them. Anyone know more about the truth to this that can expound? It is going OT a bit, but when I read it, it was put forth like it was common knowledge.
I felt like vomiting while watching the voting on C-SPAN last night. :(
SnackCracker
03-22-10, 19:00
When articles about this bill mention the "previously uninsured with pre-existing conditions will now be able to get coverage", I fear they are mostly talking about the morbidly obese, lazy, listless, apathetic, ignorant lowlifes that infest the many parts of the country who cannot speak proper English, spend beyond their means, eat junk day in and day out, breed when they are incapable of supporting themselves let alone their young, are in no way marketable and yet, still have the gall to wonder and "think" (term used loosely) "What else we gon do? They ain't hiring us?" when asked why they prey upon citizens who have some semblance of normalcy in their lives with the multitude of crimes they perpetrate. If you have ever lived in a metropolitan area then you may have a clue as to whom I refer.
Sounds like the "People of Wal-Mart". Walk through a Wal-Mart and you'll get a good sampling of the people to whom to refer.
diving dave
03-22-10, 19:27
I really fear for the future of this country. There is no way you can rack up debt after debt and think there will be no issues down the road. Lady Liberty has been knocked down with this vote. Obama is a wrecking ball, he is driven by his agenda and nothing else matters, including the will of the American people. Lets pray they pay the price in November.
I cant say im for this nor can I say im against it because I dont understand it nor have I followed this. I agree everyone deserves healthcare, but I also think everyone needs a job. Also the insurance companies are just charging way too much by state. Like my company for example. In New York state. I live in ohio. I should have to pay ohio premiums not NY. I work hard for what I have and I over pay for what I dont use.
So what are the pros and cons of this bill passing? I ask because I dont understand this issue. I understand the government really cant afford to take on any more projects until the rest are finished. like eh hem.. Iraq, Afghanistan. Alot of money being spent over there. I know, I served over there till a mortar had my name.
so why is everyone upset over this bill?
Archer
So you've essentially not paid a damn bit of attention to one of the single most damning bills to be passed in quite some time? A bill that opens up the possiblity or most likely the assurance of more socialistic agendas being injected into the system. Let me ask you this, does something this big being run by the governement make any sense to you at all? That should have raised a big RED flag to begin with. Please, do some research, not in a smart ass way but really, its something you need to know about. This is big news, and not good at that. I'd hope that once you realize the scale of this it will hit you like a ton of bricks.
Well, you can rest assured that it will be a colossal failure... as with most things government-run. I'm not sure whether or not most people advocating this bill realize it or not, but... we've had a couple of social health care programs in place for a while now and they're both bankrupt, miserable failures. Knowing that, I can't begin to imagine how anyone could believe that this will turn out any differently.
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures? I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried. The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures? I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried. The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
Pull your head out and try to come up with a better comparison rather than the members of our military VS a socialist agenda.
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures? I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried.
What you fail to acknowledge (intentionally or otherwise) in your little attempt at a "gotcha" here is that there is a difference between "soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines" and government run programs. There are competent and incompetent uniformed troops. There are competent and incompetent civilian government employees. Both are irrelevant to the fiscal solvency (or lack thereof) or constitutional legitimacy of government programs.
Also, for the record, the poster you are replying to did say most things, not all.
People =/= programs.
The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
Perhaps. But the politicians trying to save us all don't give a damn either. And that is why one of the main underlying premises supporting the pro-gov-HC-takeover position is so faulty. What is that common argument? The evil insurance companies only care about profit and nothing else, so the government should be in charge. Well you know what? The "government" only cares about perpetuating their own power.
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures?
The military is specifically provided for in the Constitution. It's also a true "public good" that is non-rival and non-excludable.
So, it passes all the tests to be provided by the federal government. Health care/insurance passes none of those tests.
I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried. The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
Good. I don't want any of them to give a shit about me in particular. As soon as a politician starts caring about individuals and not the country, all sorts of unconstitutional pork starts to roll out of Washington.
I just want them to leave me alone.
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures? I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried. The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
So now soldiers are programs?:rolleyes:
Man, how things change in America when a bill like this gets passed:eek::rolleyes:
John_Wayne777
03-22-10, 20:37
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures? I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried. The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
I think people are worried because New Deal and Great Society programs accomplished little but to put us in a perpetual state of financial distress. Liberals, undeterred by fiscal disaster, haven't learned the lessons from history. So we are doomed to repeat them...only now it's screwing with a fundamental ability to get healthcare.
There is a REASON why "We're from the government and we're here to help you!" is a punchline in our society.
Damn life is good :cool:
That is all.
Inappropriate comment deleted by me.
Damn life is good :cool:
That is all.
Damn life is good :cool:
That is all.
Roaming this site looking to ruffle somebody's feathers will prove unfruitful my friend for your stay on this site will be short lived. Socialist lemmings like you are what have ruined and continue to ruin this country. **** you times 2
Damn life is good :cool:
That is all.
Glad you feel entitled to our money.
http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/03/22/senate-republican-wants-to-make-president-obama-use-new-health-care-reform/
Senate Republican Wants to Make President Obama Use New Health Care Reform
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley, R-IA, in his usual scrappy form, has announced that he will introduce an amendment this week, during reconciliation debate, that mandates that the President, Vice President, and the entire Obama Cabinet get their health insurance through the newly-created exchanges.
Grassley, with Sen. Tom Coburn, R-OK, one of only two physicians in the chamber, succeeded in getting an amendment approved last year to the Senate bill that the House just passed and the President will sign Tuesday at 11:15am, that says all members of Congress must get insurance through the exchanges.
BUT -- in a last minute twist, before the Senate bill became law, Democratic leadership got their staff and committee staff exempted from the requirement. Their reason stated at the time was that these staffers deserve consistency in their coverage, which they get through the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHBP).
woodandsteel
03-22-10, 21:31
Glad you feel entitled to our money.
On that note, let me share a picture from an e-mail that my wife forwarded to me;
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo187/woodandsteel/TaxPiggy.jpg
It would be funny, if it weren't so true in this case.:(
Well, first of all Irishluck, nice post. Pretty well thought out informative and ummm fail. I think that there is something on Fox News to watch.
Palmguy, I didn't fail to acknowledge anything. Regardless if the people are competent or not has nothing to do with the Gov. running the military.
Also I am not sure of the connection with "Fiscal Solvency." I don't recall reading on here about how much the last President was placing the country in financial woes. Or was it because he shared the same views as some folks?
I do agree he(the OP of the statement) did say some things though, not all.
As for the last statement I agree with most of what you say. The perhaps part is off though. They care less, if they did care then lobbyists would nave a chance.
As for the Gov power perpetuating it is there.
What would be a good course for HC? How about to solve the "fiscal solvency?"
OK so Dbrownie What should one do about health care since it "doesn't pass"? Just pay a doctor his "not as high as he charges the insurance" charges? Or maybe a barter system would work? Nope that is socialist too. IDK. But noone on this site can say that bartering does not work. Sort of like a hard days work for a hard days pay.
But most of I agree with last part. Just leave me alone:)
John wayne, well wasn't the last president who put the country in the fiscal disaster that it is in? Lessons aren't learned, Bush was in office twice and then there was a consideration for Palin.
Not sure if everything is covered from those with thoughtful posts. I agree it might not be the best idea that has come out of DC. And if it sucks that bad then 3yrs from now a choice will come along.
Just sit back and wait and you'll see why the insurance companies were complicit in all of this.
They will simply jack up rates to even higher levels to compensate for the elimination of pre-existing conditions, the coverage mandates, and being forced to allow parents to carry their adult children until age 27.
Then everyone will stand around with dumb looks wondering how this happened. The bill was supposed to make health insurance more affordable. When reality hits, look out!
Then again, this "unintended consequence" could be the trojan horse to a single payer system.
However, I do think the individual mandate will be deemed unconstitutional. I also think a single payer system will be unconstitutional as well. You can't force people to use government insurance if they want to pay cash for medical services. You also can't tell private insurance companies that they cannot offer health insurance. That would take a MAJOR re-reading of the Constitution.
I see a future with a non-mandatory government insurance program for everyone - something on the level of medicaid, but probably even worse. And then a multitude of privately paid "enhanced coverage" private insurance plans that allow you more choices.
I also see a future where many doctors will refuse the government plans and only accept people with "enhanced coverage". I don't think you could ever force a doctor to take the government plan patients if he/she doesn't want them - again that would be unconstitutional.
Then again, all it takes is one of the 5 on the SCOTUS to retire or pass away, and then the Dems will have the majority and there's no telling what they will do.
3.8% tax on unearned income tax for "high" income earners. IE rental properties, CD's, etc.
That means people who buy bank CD's that help underwrite all financial loans will not be buying them, the CD rate is next to nothing, you're better off putting your cash anywhere that DOESN'T earn money.
I'm not exactly filthy rich myself, but I also realize people actually earn their hard earned money, they don't walk outdoors and stacks of hundreds fall upon them, and poor people don't create jobs or industries.
Sig, But I see how it could happen. Once again it comes down to money. I agree with not forcing folks to have gov insurance. I disagree on your future view though, not much is worse than medicaid except for none and broke. And there already a multitude of enhanced coverages out there. It is easy money. Misinformation is good way to get what you want.
On a lighter note. We just got back from a guy who says that Obama is coming for our guns and that I should hide them and stockpile ammo. All this while I was wrapping his hand where his right ring finger was before he shot it off. He said he finished cleaning it and was cycling the slide to see how far it threw the shells as it was new to him. Shot that thing right off an tossed it by t the wall. I doubt it will go back on as it was pretty burnt.
John wayne, well wasn't the last president who put the country in the fiscal disaster that it is in? Lessons aren't learned, Bush was in office twice and then there was a consideration for Palin.
I am not saying Bush was a Saint. Far from it. But exactly how did Bush put the country in the fiscal disaster it is in? What policy or policies did it?
I keep asking this question of my blame-Bush friends and they can never answer it.
Yep - my excess wealth will let be buy a condo in Bermuda - spend a few weeks there a year and **** Obama taxes - know someone who does that now because they are just a general ****, but right now, i dont want to come close to funding this obamanation. I hope repeal work takes place.
I am not saying Bush was a Saint. Far from it. But exactly how did Bush put the country in the fiscal disaster it is in? What policy or policies did it?
I keep asking this question of my blame-Bush friends and they can never answer it.
Umm I think that something like 700 billion was sent near the end there hooking up lobbyist cronies.
300B Citi
100B Fannie Mae
Those I think were in 2008.
I believe the Medicaid prescription flop cost a few hundred million bucks.
He was the spendingest(if that is a word) president ever.
He started with a surplus and gave back a black hole.
Please don't defend him just admit his was a puppet.
M4fun what are you talking about???? Is that sarcasm, a home in bermuda? Cuz if not, a lot of folks say thanks as the wealthy are some of the financial backers, through taxes, for insurance.
Umm I think that something like 700 billion was sent near the end there hooking up lobbyist cronies.
I think we were already in dire fiscal condition when that happened. I am not defending that action, but the crap had already hit the fan.
I asked which policy or policies of Bush led to us being in dire straights. Or as you put it "put the country in the fiscal disaster that it is in"
300B Citi
100B Fannie Mae
Those I think were in 2008.
I believe those were in response to the problem, not the cause.
I believe the Medicaid prescription flop cost a few hundred million bucks.
And this put the country in dire fiscal straights? I am not coming out in support of this -- I am against it -- but do you honestly want to blame the dire fiscal straights on the medicare prescription thing? And as a govt program it is not a flop. It is actually, pretty much uniquely, coming in under predicted costs.
He was the spendingest(if that is a word) president ever.
I do not believe this is factual. Please back it up with references. That have been normalized to constant dollars. And that take into account non-discretionary spending that he inherited versus non-discretionary spending he initiated plus discretionary spending that he initiated.
He started with a surplus and gave back a black hole.
The only reason that Clinton had a surplus is he had the benefit of radically increased productivity through the rapid growth of the internet (and Clinton left with a tech bubble bursting and a recession that started before Bush took office) AND Clinton basically defunded the military (obviously not completely but he really cranked down Defense spending) which freed up a ton of cash for him to try and balance his budget. Clinton did not do it through policy that encouraged a surplus -- he used the peace dividend and was in the right place at the right time for a huge spurt of productivity growth.
Bush had to deal with the bursting of the tech bubble Clinton left behind, which greatly reduced tax receipts, and then had the costs of post 9/11 including 2 wars and greatly increased Defense spending to repair the military from the drawdown Clinton benefitted from.
Bush also spent money he should not have like the prescription drug thing but that sort of increased spending was incremental to existing spending and not enough to cause dire fiscal conditions.
Bush also put into place growth driving tax cuts which caused the IRS to book the highest levels of tax receipts ever in its history.
Please don't defend him just admit his was a puppet.
I asked a question. Please answer it. Which policy or policies of Bush put us in this fiscal disaster?
M4fun what are you talking about????
Belmont31R
03-23-10, 00:00
Well, first of all Irishluck, nice post. Pretty well thought out informative and ummm fail. I think that there is something on Fox News to watch.
Palmguy, I didn't fail to acknowledge anything. Regardless if the people are competent or not has nothing to do with the Gov. running the military.
Also I am not sure of the connection with "Fiscal Solvency." I don't recall reading on here about how much the last President was placing the country in financial woes. Or was it because he shared the same views as some folks?
I do agree he(the OP of the statement) did say some things though, not all.
As for the last statement I agree with most of what you say. The perhaps part is off though. They care less, if they did care then lobbyists would nave a chance.
As for the Gov power perpetuating it is there.
What would be a good course for HC? How about to solve the "fiscal solvency?"
OK so Dbrownie What should one do about health care since it "doesn't pass"? Just pay a doctor his "not as high as he charges the insurance" charges? Or maybe a barter system would work? Nope that is socialist too. IDK. But noone on this site can say that bartering does not work. Sort of like a hard days work for a hard days pay.
But most of I agree with last part. Just leave me alone:)
John wayne, well wasn't the last president who put the country in the fiscal disaster that it is in? Lessons aren't learned, Bush was in office twice and then there was a consideration for Palin.
Not sure if everything is covered from those with thoughtful posts. I agree it might not be the best idea that has come out of DC. And if it sucks that bad then 3yrs from now a choice will come along.
Dealing with this requires scratching beneath the surface of the issue, and going beyond talking points.
For starters why don't you take a look at the Federal budget, and see what percentage of the expenditures are entitlement spending. When Bush came into office our military was in bad shape. I had NCO's talking about how they didn't have enough unit funds to even buy gas for the trucks to go train with. Our body armor was crap. We didn't have armored trucks.
Since Bush took office the military did a complete 180, and there was money to train with all we could, we got pretty decent body armor, nice trucks, and new equipment for our commo job.
The left loves, today, to complain about the "wars" costing the debt to rise. That may be true but only because unless taxes were increased there was no way to pay for this stuff without deficit spending. So much of the budget goes to entitlement spending there is hardly anything left over, and certainly not enough to keep our military updated, and fund a 2 front war. Dont forget how many democrats voted to send us to Iraq, and Afghanistan. Now they want to hide from that. Go on youtube, and there are countless videos of democrats pushing us into war. Bush could not have kept the war up without Congressional approval, and that includes when the democrats took over in 2006.
Looking at the numbers we spend more in one year in entitlement spending than Iraq and Afghanistan have cost since the 1st days of the war. Its actually a small portion the budget, and we should be able to easily pay for the defense of our nation. But we cannot because the budget is so burdened down with entitlement spending which dwarfs both Iraq and Afghanistan, and the entire DOD budget.
National defense is actually what Congress, and the president are supposed to do. Read through the Constitution, and much of what the executive and legitlative branches are supposed to do revolve around the military. There is not a single provision that authorizes Congress to setup and run programs dealing with retirement, disability, food stamps, health care, or anything else that makes up the bulk of the budget. The "promote the general welfare" clause, if you read what the people who wrote the Constitution say, is about promoting things that benefit society at large such as science, art, technology, etc. And it does say PROMOTE not provide.
Once this Obamacare takes affect its going to be another huge burden on tax payers, and make us even weaker when we need to use the military. Obama has already canceled several advanced programs such as FCS, and the F22. We don't have money to buy the next generation of equipment but we sure have money to continue handing our checks to the welfare crowd. This pattern is only going to get worse in the future as entitlement spending goes up, and one day we will not be able to project force around the world. We will not be a super power much longer if this keeps up. And just having a strong military does more to promote peace than any libtard rally or speech ever will. Look at how impotent Europe is military wise. They relied on the US during the entire Cold War to protect the west, and even today the best they can do is token contingencies of troops to support us.
If you want to talk about health care, and a free market solution there are some simple cost free steps you can take. We need to relax insurance mandates so people aren't forced into expensive plans. I dont want to pay for 3 million worth of lifetime care. I just want something for my family where if there was an accident, or we had something come up like cancer we would be taken care of. I dont mind paying out of pocket for doctors visits. We belong to a "cash" doctor who only charges 65 for an office visit, and we have a discount card for prescriptions. But if I wanted to go purchase insurance it has to include all these things Im paying for but dont want, and will likely never use.
Then we cannot buy insurance across state lines. There are close to 2k health insurance companies in the US, and most people have access to a very small minority of them. Competition always drives prices down, and that is a good thing. Obama talks about the government being the competition, and that is only one competitor. Opening up the free market means I will have hundreds of choices, and if they were not mandated to provide all these services I dont want I would pay far less for insurance than I am now.
I would also suggest you talk to a doctor about how many tests they do because they want to cover their ass if they get sued. Ask them how much their malpractice insurance is. We really need further protections, and make people more liable for filing bogus lawsuits.
Right now the government programs pay pennies on the dollars for services compared to private insurance? Why? Doctors, and hospitals have to charge insurance more just to keep making a profit. Ask a doctor how much medicaid pays them for an office visit vs. how much private insurance pays. The feds dictate to doctors what they get paid for services, and its always pennies for what they should be getting. So private insurance is a subsidy to the government plans.
Last issue I want to discuss is the millions of illegal aliens that use our hospitals, and dont pay for it. This is because, by law, doctors and hospitals have to treat people who walk through the door. Not only is private insurance subsidizing the government programs but we are also paying for the millions of illegals the government does little about, and now wants to make citizens who, by and large, will all get enrolled in Obamacare (if amnesty goes through). When you look at the stats of what we pay its higher than any other country per person. The little catch to that is no other country has tens of millions of illegal aliens getting free medical care that are not on the "rolls". We have more illegal aliens in this country than many countries have citizens.
Eguns,
Ok, just to keep it simple. You stated that whatever the reason, internet or something else it doesn't matter, Bush got a country not as bad as he left it correct? So to do that he had to spend a dollar or 2 is that correct? Some other spending frivolously might be pointed towards, KBR/halliburton, Blackwater, obviously it wasn't being spent on military enlisted wage increase.
You can't seriously play the semantics card will "what bills or policies" blah blah. He spent alot of money while in office. The country is kinda sucking because of it, which I am sure being the USA it will bounce back.
I apologize to you I am wrong, Bush didn't spend any money, he was Frosted Flakes..........GREaT!!! It was goblins and doppelgangers that put the country in such fiscal woes.
So since this isnt part of the health care bill, I apologize for bringing it up. It should be else where.
Eguns,
Ok, just to keep it simple. You stated that whatever the reason, internet or something else it doesn't matter, Bush got a country not as bad as he left it correct?
Please answer the question. What policy or policies did Bush enact that caused the financial disaster that started near the end of his second term.
This is not a semantic game. It is a real and honest question. Lots of things happen that are the long term consequences of other peoples policies and decisions. You are claiming Bush was the cause of the financial disaster and I want some sort of substantiation. Please put up or shut up.
Also Bush inherited a popped bubble and recession. Just FYI.
So to do that he had to spend a dollar or 2 is that correct? Some other spending frivolously might be pointed towards, KBR/halliburton, Blackwater, obviously it wasn't being spent on military enlisted wage increase.
Whether or not some spending was done purchasing services from KBR/Halliburton or Blackwater, on a magnitude scale it was insignificant and not the cause of the financial disaster.
You can't seriously play the semantics card will "what bills or policies" blah blah.
I am not playing a semantics card. I am asking a serious question. You made a claim and seem to be unable to back the claim.
He spent alot of money while in office. The country is kinda sucking because of it, which I am sure being the USA it will bounce back.
Please again, substantiate this. Bush's spending was a heck of a lot more than he should have (prior to the financial disaster starting) but you have yet to show that it lead to or caused this financial disaster. So no, "the country is not kinda sucking because of it". The country is kind of sucking, but not because of Bush's spending. I am not supporting or defending Bush's spending btw. I am just claiming that that spending did not result in the financial fire straights we find ourselves in.
I apologize to you I am wrong, Bush didn't spend any money, he was Frosted Flakes..........GREaT!!! It was goblins and doppelgangers that put the country in such fiscal woes.
I never said that Bush was great or did not spend more than he should have. You are acting childish. Please support your claim. You claim that Bush's spending put the country into fiscal woes. Please support that claim. So far you are batting 0.
So since this isnt part of the health care bill, I apologize for bringing it up. It should be else where.
Dealing with this requires scratching beneath the surface of the issue, and going beyond talking points.
For starters why don't you take a look at the Federal budget, and see what percentage of the expenditures are entitlement spending. When Bush came into office our military was in bad shape. I had NCO's talking about how they didn't have enough unit funds to even buy gas for the trucks to go train with. Our body armor was crap. We didn't have armored trucks.
Since Bush took office the military did a complete 180, and there was money to train with all we could, we got pretty decent body armor, nice trucks, and new equipment for our commo job.
The left loves, today, to complain about the "wars" costing the debt to rise. That may be true but only because unless taxes were increased there was no way to pay for this stuff without deficit spending. So much of the budget goes to entitlement spending there is hardly anything left over, and certainly not enough to keep our military updated, and fund a 2 front war. Dont forget how many democrats voted to send us to Iraq, and Afghanistan. Now they want to hide from that. Go on youtube, and there are countless videos of democrats pushing us into war. Bush could not have kept the war up without Congressional approval, and that includes when the democrats took over in 2006.
Looking at the numbers we spend more in one year in entitlement spending than Iraq and Afghanistan have cost since the 1st days of the war. Its actually a small portion the budget, and we should be able to easily pay for the defense of our nation. But we cannot because the budget is so burdened down with entitlement spending which dwarfs both Iraq and Afghanistan, and the entire DOD budget.
National defense is actually what Congress, and the president are supposed to do. Read through the Constitution, and much of what the executive and legitlative branches are supposed to do revolve around the military. There is not a single provision that authorizes Congress to setup and run programs dealing with retirement, disability, food stamps, health care, or anything else that makes up the bulk of the budget. The "promote the general welfare" clause, if you read what the people who wrote the Constitution say, is about promoting things that benefit society at large such as science, art, technology, etc. And it does say PROMOTE not provide.
Once this Obamacare takes affect its going to be another huge burden on tax payers, and make us even weaker when we need to use the military. Obama has already canceled several advanced programs such as FCS, and the F22. We don't have money to buy the next generation of equipment but we sure have money to continue handing our checks to the welfare crowd. This pattern is only going to get worse in the future as entitlement spending goes up, and one day we will not be able to project force around the world. We will not be a super power much longer if this keeps up. And just having a strong military does more to promote peace than any libtard rally or speech ever will. Look at how impotent Europe is military wise. They relied on the US during the entire Cold War to protect the west, and even today the best they can do is token contingencies of troops to support us.
If you want to talk about health care, and a free market solution there are some simple cost free steps you can take. We need to relax insurance mandates so people aren't forced into expensive plans. I dont want to pay for 3 million worth of lifetime care. I just want something for my family where if there was an accident, or we had something come up like cancer we would be taken care of. I dont mind paying out of pocket for doctors visits. We belong to a "cash" doctor who only charges 65 for an office visit, and we have a discount card for prescriptions. But if I wanted to go purchase insurance it has to include all these things Im paying for but dont want, and will likely never use.
Then we cannot buy insurance across state lines. There are close to 2k health insurance companies in the US, and most people have access to a very small minority of them. Competition always drives prices down, and that is a good thing. Obama talks about the government being the competition, and that is only one competitor. Opening up the free market means I will have hundreds of choices, and if they were not mandated to provide all these services I dont want I would pay far less for insurance than I am now.
I would also suggest you talk to a doctor about how many tests they do because they want to cover their ass if they get sued. Ask them how much their malpractice insurance is. We really need further protections, and make people more liable for filing bogus lawsuits.
Right now the government programs pay pennies on the dollars for services compared to private insurance? Why? Doctors, and hospitals have to charge insurance more just to keep making a profit. Ask a doctor how much medicaid pays them for an office visit vs. how much private insurance pays. The feds dictate to doctors what they get paid for services, and its always pennies for what they should be getting. So private insurance is a subsidy to the government plans.
Last issue I want to discuss is the millions of illegal aliens that use our hospitals, and dont pay for it. This is because, by law, doctors and hospitals have to treat people who walk through the door. Not only is private insurance subsidizing the government programs but we are also paying for the millions of illegals the government does little about, and now wants to make citizens who, by and large, will all get enrolled in Obamacare (if amnesty goes through). When you look at the stats of what we pay its higher than any other country per person. The little catch to that is no other country has tens of millions of illegal aliens getting free medical care that are not on the "rolls". We have more illegal aliens in this country than many countries have citizens.
What you say is true, the youtube seems to have a lot of FOXnews init so I don't count it though. Once again, which I am sure you know about, misinformation is a strong weapon.
I agree with most of what you say. I disagree with the Dr comment though. They are paid to run tests, I do believe that a Dr was just caught for charging for test that he didn't run resulting in a pt death. Also a guy we ran on in the last yr or so was hospitalized after being diagnosed with anxiety. The Dr he had went to took an xray and an EKG, for complaints of chest pains, low back pain and heart beat in his abd, a few hours before. When we got there he was pacing stating that he was gonna die. the pulse in his abd was easy to palp, and a CAT showed that his aorta was leaking. Straight to surgery. Maybe this Dr that you suggest I go ask should have taken more test???
As for the Dr's profits they sure do seem to have really nice things. I work every bit as hard if not harder and get paid significantly less, by choice I admit. Some docs are good, but so far none of them can do CPR worth a damn:)
Eguns you are using semantics, no one is being childish. Try this: Google Bush sending record.
Crap gotta go fire call:)
.... obviously it wasn't being spent on military enlisted wage increase...
What are you talking about? Us military enlisted blokes saw some of the best wage increases, bonuses, and general pay in a long time under Bush. Clinton decimated our military. And Obama, who claimed he wanted to bring military pay on par with the civilian sector, is proposing a record low wage increase. An increase that is actually below the rate of inflation. Please get your facts straight before you open your mouth. Enlisted military had a hell of a great time under Bush as far as pay and job security is concerned. And many, who actually like doing a soldier's job, had great job satisfaction under Bush too.
As far as the healthcare plan goes, it saddens me. I can understand someone's argument that they believe healthcare is a service that needs to be provided by the government, similar to police, fire, and road services. But that's not even the case here. The case with this bill, is just an attack on our freedoms. We're being forced to purchase private insurance? And we get fined if we don't buy something? This is ridiculous. And the sad part is that many people didn't even realize what it entailed. I only hope that the courts can deem this unconstitutional, because it is.
I ask the anti Bush people the same question. And as so predictabely seen here, they can't answere it. If I had a penny for everytime Ive heard someone blame Bush for this mess, amongst other things, I could hire Bill Gates as a butler. I too am not advocating the actions of Bush, and when he first got elected I was really too young to care, but as far as him causing this hella mess we are in now, I cant find out how he did it:confused: And I often look back at the 2000 elections and think man, what would have come after 9/11 if Gore got elected?:eek: Or Kerry during the 2004 elections? He may have not been the best as usually they arent, but given A or B, come on, which would you choose as a strong leader
He started with a surplus and gave back a black hole.
You shouldn't talk about the current commander in chief that way.
Eguns you are using semantics,
se·man·tics [si-man-tiks] Show IPA
–noun(used with a singular verb)
1.
Linguistics.
a.
the study of meaning.
b.
the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.
2.
Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3.
the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.
#3 seems to be closest. Where have I argued about the meaning of a word, sign, or sentence?
YOU claimed that the dire financial straights were the fault of Bush. I asked for you to substantiate that. What exactly did Bush do that caused this? (Besides having the bad luck of being President when the unintended consequences of long term policies as well a a bunch of other things all came together and blew up?)
That is not semantics.
You have been unable to answer and keep trying to deflect the question with childish pranks (see below) and bluster.
no one is being childish.
Uhh, frosted flakes and doppelgangers? Come again?
Try this: Google Bush sending record.
I just did. It does not support your claims. His spending was about middle of the road compared to past Presidents, excluding defense and interest payments. Defense spending had to increase after the deprivations of the Clinton years and Defense spending is somewhat a reaction to world events and threats. Interest payments is not something the President has any control over.
It also does nothing to prove your claim that Bush's spending (which I have admitted many times was not low but it was not at the magnitude that would cause these problems either) put us (ie, caused) these dire fiscal problems we find ourselves in. In other words, while his spending may have been on the high side, it was not at a magnitude to have caused these economic problems.
Once again, what policy or policies from the Bush administration lead to these financial dire straights the US and world find itself in?
Crap gotta go fire call:)
stay safe
i forsee a lot more indepentant areas poppping up.
thats it. ive had it. im heading overseas to stay.
Didnt you leave yet?
Palmguy, I didn't fail to acknowledge anything. Regardless if the people are competent or not has nothing to do with the Gov. running the military.
You weren't talking about the Government. You were talking about "soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines"; i.e. individual people. I called you on your lame rhetorical point (as did several others).
Also I am not sure of the connection with "Fiscal Solvency." I don't recall reading on here about how much the last President was placing the country in financial woes. Or was it because he shared the same views as some folks?
...
Umm I think that something like 700 billion was sent near the end there hooking up lobbyist cronies.
300B Citi
100B Fannie Mae
Those I think were in 2008.
I believe the Medicaid prescription flop cost a few hundred million bucks.
He was the spendingest(if that is a word) president ever.
Search around. You have 11 posts, half of which are probably in this thread. While the "Bush Sucks" argument is quite original and compelling (:rolleyes:), it is hardly justification for what Obama et al is doing. Obama is taking what Bush did and putting the pedal to the floor. You can't have it both ways. You know who voted for that $700B? Obama. Bush spent a lot of money...Obama is on pace to eclipse that by a significant margin. Oh and BTW the prescription drug "flop" as you call it is in the trillions, not millions. Yes, I have a problem with that. Not everyone here is a Bush cheerleader.
OK so Dbrownie What should one do about health care since it "doesn't pass"?
Your questions presumes that something needs to be done in the first place. What is incredible about this entire fiasco is that so many people, including republicans, have whipped everyone into a lather about how health care is "broken" and we NEED "reform." It's a bunch of bullshit. All of it.
How about if you just leave it alone? 85% of America has no problem with the current system. It's not broken just because 15% are too cheap, too lazy, to myopic or just plain too dumb to take care of themselves.
Isnt the military government run? Would you say that soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are failures? I think that most people are worried because others are telling them to be worried. The same politicians that you say are good could give 2 shits about you or your family.
The Constitution gives the Fed the power to establish and maintain the military. IT DOES NOT give the government the power to force everybody to get health care. Nor is there a "human right" to health care in the Constitution. Maybe you should try reading it. Obviously Obama and his cronies on the Hill haven't or need to re-read it.
How about if you just leave it alone? 85% of America has no problem with the current system. It's not broken just because 15% are too cheap, too lazy, to myopic or just plain too dumb to take care of themselves.
Agreed. Like that one lady proclaimed after Obama was elected, "I won't have to pay my mortgage, I don't have to worry about putting gas in my car..."
ForTehNguyen
03-23-10, 07:47
clintons surplus is a myth. If there was a surplus why does the treasury's own website show the national debt go up each year he was in office
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16
Fiscal
Year Year
Ending National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion
Your questions presumes that something needs to be done in the first place. What is incredible about this entire fiasco is that so many people, including republicans, have whipped everyone into a lather about how health care is "broken" and we NEED "reform." It's a bunch of bullshit. All of it.
How about if you just leave it alone? 85% of America has no problem with the current system. It's not broken just because 15% are too cheap, too lazy, to myopic or just plain too dumb to take care of themselves.
Dead. ****ing. On.
Lefty, time to STFU and GTFO.
ForTehNguyen
03-23-10, 09:35
something needs to be done but handing it over for govt control is the last thing someone should do.
1) interstate competition
2) same tax benefits for individuals for employer offered insurance *this is the big one that will break the 42% below*
3) Promote high deductible and HSA type coverage.
4) tort reform
of the healthcare dollars spent
46% govt
42% employer offered insurance
12% directly out of consumer pocket
no wonder prices keep rising due to over-utilization of insurance and very little consumer market forces (that weak 12%)
LockenLoad
03-23-10, 09:42
something needs to be done but handing it over for govt control is the last thing someone should do.
1) interstate competition
2) same tax benefits for individuals for employer offered insurance *this is the big one that will break the 42% below*
3) Promote high deductible and HSA type coverage.
4) tort reform
of the healthcare dollars spent
46% govt
42% employer offered insurance
12% directly out of consumer pocket
no wonder prices keep rising due to over-utilization of insurance and very little consumer market forces (that weak 12%)
it's called create jobs so people can afford health insurance, not create bureaucratic monster that needs to be feed and is going to be rife with corruption, strange if this health care bill is so good why is congress writing an amendment to it to exempt them.
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