View Full Version : UPS hub hassles me about shipping firearms...
Trying to ship a couple of handguns to Bill Springfield for trigger jobs, went to the usual UPS hub where I've shipped before (but not for some time).
Clerk tells me that they need proof I'm shipping to a dealer. I tell him that no, they don't (per their policies that I've shipped with before) and that the address printed out is for a gunsmith. "Is that a dealer?" Uh, sure (didn't want to explain the concept of FFLs). Still no dice, they want him to fax them something to prove it. (Which obviously isn't going to happen.)
So I'm trying to decide what to do:
- Call UPS customer service and spend who knows how long trying to talk to someone and find a solution.
- Printing out their policies and showing them that there is no proof requirement.
- Taking a copy of my C&R FFL and seeing if they assume that means I'm a 'dealer.'
spamsammich
03-22-10, 18:55
Unless they've had a major policy change lately, what you got was a line of pure bullshit. I shipped a handgun last month and didn't need proof of where it was going. Go back and ask to talk to somebody that doesn't have their head up their ass. Quote me if you like.
pilotguyo540
03-22-10, 19:40
They dont need to know what is in the box, just a declared value for the insurance. If that does not work, go with FedEx. As always, keep your mouth shut:p
Littlelebowski
03-22-10, 19:50
Go with FedEx. They're not unionized either which makes it even better.
Get Bill's FFL and show them, Do not let them make a copy or file it as ATF strickly advises against it. Bill will not mind and it's just easier this way. Stupid lawyer wanabees.
Also, not telling a common carrier that there is a firearm in the package is against the law.
Ridge_Runner_5
03-22-10, 20:08
Whats in the box?
Precious metals.
Whats in the box?
Precious metals.
Just a little concentrated RDX and plastisizer:D
pilotguyo540
03-22-10, 20:41
Get Bill's FFL and show them, Do not let them make a copy or file it as ATF strickly advises against it. Bill will not mind and it's just easier this way. Stupid lawyer wanabees.
Also, not telling a common carrier that there is a firearm in the package is against the law.
What law is broken? It is being shipped from a legitimate owner to a legitimate gunsmith. Fedex or UPS or USPS do not need to know the details. It is none of their business.... sort of.
Forgive me if I am wrong, I am no expert. My shipping guy in the office (we are not a firearm related entity) said its no problem when I checked with him to verify my opinion.
really, in the end, who is gonna know or give a damn? If you are crossing an international border, customs will be up your ass in a second. Then they would need to know.
Just to be safe, look up the laws rather than taking legal advice from strangers on a web forum.
I too am no legal expert but the illegal activity he was talking of might be when you ship to another person or dealer that is not a gunsmith. Then it might be illegal but to my knowledge it isnt illegal to ship a firearm to a gunsmith without telling them its a gun. Unless your shipping with a company that doesnt allow firearms to be shipped, which would could turn south potentially. But as long as your shipping provider is ok with firearms shipments, and they dont state that it needs to be known that its a firearm then I wouldnt think it'd be illegal. Just my .02 cents, thats my reckoning any way.
18 USC 922 (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
Not a lawyer, read it how you will and at your own risk.
pilotguyo540
03-22-10, 21:05
18 USC 922 (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
Not a lawyer, read it how you will and at your own risk.
okay, enough with the hear say nonsense! I want facts people.:D
18 USC 922 (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
Not a lawyer, read it how you will and at your own risk.
I think I was wrong:p I appreciate the post, it did clear a little up. Sorry bout that
mourneblade
03-22-10, 21:11
I sent a pistol back to the manufacturer for some repairs today. I noticed the ups label sent by the manufacturer said, "Machined Parts" in the description. Thought that was a good idea.
johnnywitt
03-22-10, 21:43
to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice
Any FFL IS a licensed dealer. It says "to persons OTHER than licensed... without written notice" So if the person or entity is licensed and you are legally sending it to them, I would interpret that to mean they don't need written notice. However I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, nor am I an attorney.
Just sayin'.
pilotguyo540
03-22-10, 21:52
to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice
Any FFL IS a licensed dealer. It says "to persons OTHER than licensed... without written notice" So if the person or entity is licensed and you are legally sending it to them, I would interpret that to mean they don't need written notice. However I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, nor am I an attorney.
Just sayin'.
Good call. I am staying in a holiday inn express tonight and have noticed that lawyers are allowed to write large run on sentences, while the rest of us are not.
It shall be unlawful for any person to deliver to any common or contract carrier for transportation in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported; blah blah blah.
I cut out all of the bs and the crap that didn't apply to make it easier to read.
pilotguyo540
03-22-10, 21:52
UPS aintst gots to know abouts it
ForTehNguyen
03-22-10, 21:53
Whats in the box?
Precious metals.
machined parts
Hell, I may have misread the law, its a little hard to read lawyer talk.
Always go Fedex - Always label as Machine Parts - always get buku insurance.
machined parts
powder-driven paper hole puncher
They were wrong; at that point I usually politely ask to discuss it with a supervisor. Never had a problem with the supervisor. FedEx always goes smoothly though...
UPS policy:
Shipping Firearms
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms, as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code, for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code, law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States) and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), and from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and package.
Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)
UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.
Firearms, including handguns, and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally
Ammunition may be accepted for shipment internationally provided it is shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping International Goods.
UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.
Follow These Packing Requirements
Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS.
Ammunition cannot be included in packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Ammunition must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials, or the UPS Guide for Shipping International Dangerous Goods.
Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments.
About Documentation and Labeling
The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.
Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
You can only ship your package that contains a handgun from UPS daily pickup accounts or through UPS Customer Centers (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Handguns are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
You can ship a firearm (excluding handguns), from a UPS daily pickup account, UPS On-Call Pickup, One-Time Pickup, or a UPS Customer Center. Note: Firearms are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or at The UPS Store or any third party retailer.
See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.
The whole "It's none of their business" thing never passes the smell test with me... If you wanted to enter into a private contract with me to transport a package for you and I asked what it was "None of your business" would not fly, at least not for a reasonable rate... ;) That said, all of my shipments are labeled "Machine Parts"- If they ask I don't lie.
I would think that an insurance claim might get sticky if you didn't declare it, thus violating their shipping policy and the contract you entered into with them. YMMV :)
johnnywitt
03-23-10, 11:25
Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable not declaring the firearm and I always do. But, if you read the verbiage and you want to get technical (and you know your gonna have to deal with a prick), it pretty well states that as long as the firearm is going to an authorized licensee, you technically don't have to tell them. I think its common courtesy and in the interest of safety to let them see the weapon is unloaded for transport, being that it's probably going to go in an aeroplano. Having a .50 cal discharge in the hold in turbulence could suck big time.
Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable not declaring the firearm and I always do. But, if you read the verbiage and you want to get technical (and you know your gonna have to deal with a prick), it pretty well states that as long as the firearm is going to an authorized licensee, you technically don't have to tell them. I think its common courtesy and in the interest of safety to let them see the weapon is unloaded for transport, being that it's probably going to go in an aeroplano. Having a .50 cal discharge in the hold in turbulence could suck big time.
I've declared firearms at the hub before, always in packages that are already labeled and sealed and never once have they wanted to visually verify that the firearm is unloaded.
IMO declaring the firearm is not necessarily in the interest of safety...as soon as someone other than you know what is in there, the potential for it to "fall off the truck" so to speak has to go up. I know that the gun ain't loaded, the counter robot that is scared of guns probably wouldn't even know the difference.
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
I've always notified. Don't want to roll the dice with the law, or with a package going missing and me getting stiffed on the insurance.
Found the FedEx hub - sailed right through, and I'm pretty sure it came out cheaper w/ $1600 in insurance than UPS would have anyway. I'd always heard that FedEx was a bigger pain for firearms for some reason, but I'll be using them from now on.
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
I know that's what BATFE says, personally I'm not convinced that it actually says that. I've posted the relevant section from the USC above (which they actually cite at the bottom there).
I used FedEx last time simply cause they are closer to the house than UPS. Went by there the day before and explained what I needed to do. The guy was nice and professional. He did suggest that I get the recipients FFL number and the clerk who took my package did use the ATF EzCheck web site to look up the name to make sure it matched. Of course I only gave him the digits that were needed and not the whole thing.
I would definitely not lie on the forms that you fill out. If there is damage due to shipping it's going to be hard to file a claim to a damaged handgun when the insurance form sais something else. So long as the description doesn't end up on the box you're ok.
18 USC 922 (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
Not a lawyer, read it how you will and at your own risk.
Bold indicates to me that written declaration is not required UNLESS it is to a person other than indicated.
johnnywitt
03-24-10, 11:13
I used FedEx last time simply cause they are closer to the house than UPS. Went by there the day before and explained what I needed to do. The guy was nice and professional. He did suggest that I get the recipients FFL number and the clerk who took my package did use the ATF EzCheck web site to look up the name to make sure it matched. Of course I only gave him the digits that were needed and not the whole thing.
I would definitely not lie on the forms that you fill out. If there is damage due to shipping it's going to be hard to file a claim to a damaged handgun when the insurance form sais something else. So long as the description doesn't end up on the box you're ok.
On anothe note, UPS doesn't insure Machineguns. I know of a case where a Company accidently shipped a Guy's FA Mini Uzi and it got mangled pretty badly and they refused to cover it. They will ship them: just not insure them.
FedEx will, however, insure your MG. Lots of SOT's just use the USPS. They don't have to abide by the same onerous and draconian regulations as us lowly mortals.
I know that's what BATFE says, personally I'm not convinced that it actually says that. I've posted the relevant section from the USC above (which they actually cite at the bottom there).
After rereading it I think you’re right.
I’m still going to tell them for insurance. Whenever I have shipped in the past they have never put the contents on the box. It also needs to be singed for by the recipient.
I have always used UPS in the past but I need to ship a lower in the next few days and I think I will give FedEx a try.
Had the same experience with UPS. Any chance your experience was at the Chantilly, VA location? Anyway, ended up going with FedeX because UPS doesn't even follow their own policies.
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