View Full Version : Lead - Update
gentlemen,
been thinking about lead lately. my wife is usually pregnant, and i'm usually shooting.. i wear shooting gloves, and TRY to remember to put gloves on when cleaning guns, and always wash up good.. but all the same, it just seems like a regular shooter just has to be covered in lead, spreading contamination around all over the place.
so i'm hoping to start a little discussion about the dangers and implications of lead from shooting. and i'm not just worried about contamination to my wife and kids, but also myself. i know they say most lead ingestion comes from eating/smoking/touching your face after shooting, rather than inhalation. well where does the lead come from on your hands? surely gun smoke contains quite a bit of lead. the primer has lead, and the back of the bullet is usually exposed lead. when a round is fired, that exposed lead is vaporized, which is what causes a lot of the fouling in the barrel. furthermore, especially with pistols, the whole area around the muzzle gets caked in soot we call "carbon," but is probably substantially lead fouling.. that stuff gets all over your holster, hands, sleeves, etc.. and, especially with ARs, and especially with SBRs and suppressed weapons- gas to the face. i've taken in some pretty nasty lung-fulls of "gas" from ARs in my time. running a drill, breathing hard to begin with, sucking wind through your mouth.. and it always seems that you're sucking in just as the weapon is jetting another stream of gas into your face. how much lead absorption do you get from that? how much lead ends up all over your face? will your wife get some contamination when she kisses you as you walk in from a range trip?
and how well does lead wash off? if you've got it all over your hands and sleeves and probably everywhere else, what's it take to get it off? will putting lead-contaminated clothing in the wash spread lead all over the load, or is lead pretty soluble? does it all wash out and down the drain? when washing hands, how much of the lead are you getting off? and does lead absorb through skin when mixed with the hardcore solvents we use to clean guns with? sometimes i feel like shit while cleaning my guns, even in my power-ventilated shop, and wonder if the shit isn't soaking in through my skin.
and lastly, just how BAD is lead? how much does it take to cause problems in grown men? children? pregnant women? how many shooters have actually had problems with lead ingestion as a direct result to their gunstar lifestyle?
i told my wife to get a BLL check next time she's at the doctor, just to see. i'm really not sooper paranoid about any of this, but i'd sure hate to be slowly poisoning my family because i was stupid/ignorant. i'll get mine checked next time i'm in too.
any info/links/experiences with high BLLs/etc anyone has would be much appreciated.
thanks in advance.
One thing I do when I play with solvents and chemicals is put on some of that chemical glove lotion or cream, like Clearshield, or other brands, that create a silicone layer on your hands to keep stuff from soaking in. I also try and use more friendly cleaning agents like M-Pro 7.
I don't know much about the lead aspects of it though.
PRGGodfather
03-23-10, 13:37
Lead contamination is real, but the biggest preventative is washing your hands after shooting, especially before eating, smoking or other ingestion. Regular washing of clothing and footwear is sufficient, too.
Our range staff used to get checked every 6 months, given the number of times we shot or were present when others had to shoot. We had no significant levels of lead as result of exposure, and we have an indoor range. We decided the policy was unecessary after running it for five years.
Now, disposal of lead inside a backstop or casting lead bullets without proper ventilation is another thing altogether. Use Tyvek suits, gloves, boots and ventilators when cleaning out bullet traps.
From what I understand, high lead levels generally manifest as symptoms of fatigue. Try not to lick the walls and stuff...
The only lead poisoning I worry about these days is the direct penetration method. That's a bad day at the office.
Lead is pretty bad stuff if you get it in your system in high enough concentrations. I went through the same worry when my son came into the world. First and formost you need to take all the hype and hysteria about bad things with a grain of salt. We all grew up with lead paint. I played with lead toy soldiers, didn't eat them, but handled them regularly and most likely touched my mouth, face, eyes...during and after play. Still alive and relatively normal :).
What I did and do to this day is that I clean up after shooting. My clothes come off in the laundry room aka garage and I go directly to take a shower. Used to do this no matter just to clean up in general as I shoot outdoors and the sweat, sunscreen... needed to come off. For cleaning I use Mpro7 simply cause the wife doesn't like the smell of other cleaners. If I need to use something harsher I go outside. I use disposable rags so there is no chance of getting anything mixed up and into the wrong hands.
Just as a CYA we had my son tested for lead on his first year docs visit and he was normal. Pretty much if you take normal precautions to protect yourself you are also protecting your family. Unless your kid likes licking you all over or the likes you should be ok.
ForTehNguyen
03-23-10, 14:44
I read somewhere, for lead accumulation to occur it has to be in the really fine form. The larger chunks of lead arent dangerous or ranges would be toxic waste dumps.
TriumphRat675
03-23-10, 14:48
and lastly, just how BAD is lead? how much does it take to cause problems in grown men? children? pregnant women? how many shooters have actually had problems with lead ingestion as a direct result to their gunstar lifestyle?
You aren't being paranoid. Lead poisoning causes neurological damage and won't go away on its own. I belong to an IDPA club where most of the shooting is at an indoor range with poor ventilation - initially I got a chuckle out of the guy wearing a facemask. Then I talked to one of the most active competitors who mentioned that she and three or four of the others have actual lead poisoning.
According to her, the treatment she's undergoing involves some kind of chemical drip to remove the shit from her system. She says her doctor told her to take calcium supplements right after shooting and that somehow helps clear up recently ingested lead.
Obviously this is all third-hand but I have no reason to doubt her. FWIW, I tend to feel crappy after our matches. I'll be getting my own BLL tested at my next physical.
You aren't being paranoid. Lead poisoning causes neurological damage and won't go away on its own. I belong to an IDPA club where most of the shooting is at an indoor range with poor ventilation - initially I got a chuckle out of the guy wearing a facemask. Then I talked to one of the most active competitors who mentioned that she and three or four of the others have actual lead poisoning.
I shot with NH TAG back in 98 time frame and we were shooting indoors at a weekly practice time. Mas Ayoob showed up and wore a ventilator mask like you see when spraying paint or whatever. I was told he had similar problems at the time. Don't know if this is true about him but he was taking it seriously.
been thinking about lead lately. my wife is usually pregnant, and i'm usually shooting..
I have nothing else to add to the topic at hand. But I just found your opening line quite funny my friend. :p
Although I will add this.
and lastly, just how BAD is lead?
I would rather be on the receiving end of it than be poisoned by it if that gives you any indication.
A shop teacher I had showed symptoms of lead poisoning. He said it was from when they used leaded gasoline to clean their hands.
A shop teacher I had showed symptoms of lead poisoning. He said it was from when they used leaded gasoline to clean their hands.
what were the symptoms? what did he do about it? esplain, por favor.
what were the symptoms? what did he do about it? esplain, por favor.
Headaches more often but he shook most of the time, I am not sure on any treatment though.
At a local rifle league, a regular shooter and leader of the league found out the level of lead in her blood was approaching levels that could cause damager and were irreversible.
She used to clean/set up/take down/sweep at the indoor range without gloves or a respirator.
Now, she still goes to this indoor league every week, but wears a respirator and gloves. The lead levels in her system did start going back up... it turns out you need to keep the inside of your respirator clean as well.
Lead poisoning causes neurological damage and won't go away on its own.
Contrary to the above, I was under the impression that heavy metals (mercury, lead, etc.) do wash out of the body. If it didn't, you could only eat X number of fish in your lifetime. However, maybe I am confusing lead accumulation with actual lead poisoning. Anybody?
I do know that a single BLL test will only be an indicator, and that if it is anywhere elevated you should probably begin a testing regimen. I tried to have a test done on me after 3 days of sitting 4 feet away from a machine gun muzzle firing approx. 5k rounds per day, but apparently it was too much to ask for with the necessary paperwork and program that has to be started.
I want to believe that changing clothes, washing with cold water, and wearing PPE while cleaning/handling spent brass is enough. It's awfully hard not to hydrate on the range, and sometimes I don't get to leave it in order to eat.
I had lead contamination when I was 16/17 from working on an indoor range. One step down from lead poisoning.
Not fun.
I'll make a longer post about my experiences and what I have been told by the doctor that treated me all those years ago in a while.
i cant even imagine how many times i've eaten on the range or in the field after firing X number of rounds.. i wasn't even really aware of lead dangers from shooting until a few years ago, and they NEVER said shit about it in the Army.
as to the question about cleaning lead out of the body, i've read a bit about it, and it appears "chelation therapy" will bond the lead in such a way that you can start shitting out cumulations. sort of like biliruben, for those familiar with bilirubenemia (jaundice). but clearing the lead out doesn't necessarily mean a reversal of damage. apparently it's much worse with children, as it can cause developmental problems, than with adults.
TriumphRat675
03-23-10, 18:01
Contrary to the above, I was under the impression that heavy metals (mercury, lead, etc.) do wash out of the body. If it didn't, you could only eat X number of fish in your lifetime.
Docs actually recommend that you limit your intake of fish for this reason. Look at the EPA and Australian gov't docs in this link. (http://www.google.com/search?q=limit+fish+intake+mercury&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1) My understanding is that metals accumulate fast and leave the body very, very slowly, tho I'm no expert - which is why you use the chelation therapy bkb mentioned to get them out of your system faster.
Try not to lick the walls and stuff...
Hahaha. Wait...you're not supposed to do that? :D
Seriously, after 18 years as a small arms instructor, I've had slight lead contamination (a couple points above normal), so now I usually delegate that job to the younger guys.
tracker722
03-23-10, 18:23
*****
TriumphRat675
03-23-10, 19:16
I buy boxes of latex gloves to clean my firearms with. Have been for about the last 5 years.
I used to use latex gloves too, but my understanding is that they don't protect you from chemicals in the cleaning solvents, etc - some are pretty toxic. You need nitrile gloves for that.
Forget where I read that, I think it was one of Ayoob's books.
i use nitril for everything.. gun cleaning, working on cars, i even wore 'em to cut concrete fiberboard today. latex doesn't hold up to solvents well, and tears really easily
RogerinTPA
03-23-10, 21:36
I read somewhere, for lead accumulation to occur it has to be in the really fine form. The larger chunks of lead arent dangerous or ranges would be toxic waste dumps.
That's exactly what happens when your weapon goes "bang". The lead at the base of the bullet is aerosolized when a bullet is fired. You are covered in it more so in indoor ranges, especially when doing high round count shooting. Even then, just being on the firing line is enough. That's why I completely wash hands and face when done while at the range, then totally change clothes, wash them, then shower before doing anything else.
I'm going to get my lead checked when I do my next lab work up, since I shoot almost exclusively in an indoor range.
Docs actually recommend that you limit your intake of fish for this reason. Look at the EPA and Australian gov't docs in this link. (http://www.google.com/search?q=limit+fish+intake+mercury&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1) My understanding is that metals accumulate fast and leave the body very, very slowly, tho I'm no expert - which is why you use the chelation therapy bkb mentioned to get them out of your system faster.
Understood. It's also frequently posted on fishing signs at state parks and reservoirs. I should have said "...instead of X number of fish every month" to indicate that toxins are flushed out eventually. Whether or not they are flushed before damage is done I would presume depends on how much and the given time frame.
Where are the doctors in the crowd? Specifically, any military docs who can provide guidance on starting a testing program or if it's needed? You would think I had asked for a new liver when I mentioned a BLL test.
MarshallDodge
03-23-10, 22:21
i use nitril for everything.. gun cleaning, working on cars, i even wore 'em to cut concrete fiberboard today. latex doesn't hold up to solvents well, and tears really easily
Same here. I buy the cheap Nitriles at Harbor Freight when they are on sale. I think I paid $7 for a box of 100.
Heavy Metal
03-23-10, 22:54
You aren't being paranoid. Lead poisoning causes neurological damage and won't go away on its own. I belong to an IDPA club where most of the shooting is at an indoor range with poor ventilation - initially I got a chuckle out of the guy wearing a facemask. Then I talked to one of the most active competitors who mentioned that she and three or four of the others have actual lead poisoning.
According to her, the treatment she's undergoing involves some kind of chemical drip to remove the shit from her system. She says her doctor told her to take calcium supplements right after shooting and that somehow helps clear up recently ingested lead.
Obviously this is all third-hand but I have no reason to doubt her. FWIW, I tend to feel crappy after our matches. I'll be getting my own BLL tested at my next physical.
It is called Chelation Therapy.
BTW, wash your hands, don't pick up brass in your hat. Do not wear your shooting clothes more than one day.
Wash your face and arms too. Concentrate on the areas between your fingers.
Wear disposable gloves when cleaning guns, the residue is lead contaminated.
Do all this before you eat if possible. I keep a bottle of handi-wipes in my range kit.
THINK DECON!!
Heavy Metal
03-23-10, 22:56
Contrary to the above, I was under the impression that heavy metals (mercury, lead, etc.) do wash out of the body. If it didn't, you could only eat X number of fish in your lifetime. However, maybe I am confusing lead accumulation with actual lead poisoning. Anybody?
I do know that a single BLL test will only be an indicator, and that if it is anywhere elevated you should probably begin a testing regimen. I tried to have a test done on me after 3 days of sitting 4 feet away from a machine gun muzzle firing approx. 5k rounds per day, but apparently it was too much to ask for with the necessary paperwork and program that has to be started.
I want to believe that changing clothes, washing with cold water, and wearing PPE while cleaning/handling spent brass is enough. It's awfully hard not to hydrate on the range, and sometimes I don't get to leave it in order to eat.
The problem is they tend to accumulate in the bones.
GitmoSmoke
03-24-10, 09:42
Glen Fryxell is a heavy metals chemist and cast bullet expert and he provides a couple of tips to reduce lead exposure, along with excellent articles on casting and getting the most out of plain lead bullets. The second link comes from a website devoted to women and firearms self defense. The lead article is geared to keeping lead contamination out of the home. Once you get past the pink pages there are some excellent pages that apply to men and women both. I originally found this site to educate my wife about guns and self defense training and ended up reading everything she wrote. FWIW Massad Ayoob recommends this site for women.
http://sixguns.com/crew/lead.html
http://www.corneredcat.com/Safety/lead.aspx
tracker722
03-24-10, 15:30
*************************
Glen Fryxell is a heavy metals chemist and cast bullet expert and he provides a couple of tips to reduce lead exposure, along with excellent articles on casting and getting the most out of plain lead bullets. The second link comes from a website devoted to women and firearms self defense. The lead article is geared to keeping lead contamination out of the home. Once you get past the pink pages there are some excellent pages that apply to men and women both. I originally found this site to educate my wife about guns and self defense training and ended up reading everything she wrote. FWIW Massad Ayoob recommends this site for women.
http://sixguns.com/crew/lead.html
http://www.corneredcat.com/Safety/lead.aspx
good reading.. thanks. now i'm a bit more paranoid.
Back in the 80's I was instructing on an indoor range and tested with extremely high lead levels. They actually came to me and asked me to participate in a national study on elevated blood lead levels. My asst instructor also tested with elevated levels. We taught on an indoor range built in the 1960's.
Our treatment was just to stay off the range for 6 months and our levels dropped back to normal levels. It seems when you urinate your body flushes the lead out of your system as long as you are not exposed to additional lead. The problem stems from being exposed at a rate higher than your body can naturally get rid of it.
When we started back on the range again we restricted the range to no food or drink allowed and we washed up with cool soap & water as soon as we got off the range. Both of us got our levels checked every 6 months after that and neither of us had any further problems with elevated blood lead levels.
I have gone on to have 2 children both of whom are going to college on academic scholarships and they also enjoy the shooting sports.
The danger of elevated lead levels is real and you must be careful. I give all my students instruction on the danger of lead exposure.
I have found that the biggest precautions a person can take is no food or drink on the range and cleanliness.
Tennvol12345
03-24-10, 17:00
I wear the same clothes shooting, especially shoes and wipe my hands, face, and arms down with a wet-wipe when I'm done. When I get home shoes come off in the garage and I go right upstairs and take a shower. I also glove up when cleaning and wear a respirator (not a N95 mask) when I sift my tumbler media. Also be smart about it when shooting, dont type on your blackberry or drink a can a coke when shooting indoors. I see it happen all the time.
lead on your hands is a minimal risk for lead poisioning. the big risk is inhalation of particles in the air after firing- a significant issue only on indoor ranges. Most of the risk is from the lead discharged from the PRIMER not the lead un bullets. If you shoot jacket bullets most of the time it does help. Non toxic loads for police training were developed in response to the issue of instructors getting lead poisioning. If you shoot on an indoor range a couple hours a week, the effect /risk is negligible but instructors who are on site for hours every day are at risk. Also in my area many older indoor ranges have backstops not designed to hold up to jacketed bullets and require plain lead bullets only which makes things worse of course
I finally got a BLL check.. i'm at 2.2 micrograms per deciliter. "acceptable, but needs to be watched" BLLs are 1-10 MPDL, according to my doctor. in other words, i do not have anything close to "lead poisoning," but i do have an accumulation that's above "natural," and my doctor wants me to drink extra milk, use 100% lead protection- no indoor shooting, wear shooting gloves, wear nitril gloves for, and wash hands immediately after, handling anything that contains lead/exposed to lead fouling, etc.
then we'll re-check about every 6 months, just to keep tabs.
my wife STILL hasn't gotten checked, but i suspect she's probably well below any concern level.
i rarely shoot indoors to begin with... if i'm a little elevated, and YOU shoot indoors- i strongly encourage you to get checked.
bkb- Good to hear you're not badly elevated. So you laid off the paint chips?:D
bkb- Good to hear you're not badly elevated. So you laid off the paint chips?:D
cutting down, at least. nom nom.
jklaughrey
05-29-10, 21:48
Imagine the production workers at the company I consult for. They have lead level checks every 6 months and if too high get rotated to different job/location till levels are normal. But typically if they are 50% above normal levels they are out. Since I do shoot indoor alot and have to be on manufacturing floor at times when lead is being smelted and cast I get checked 3-4 months and am usually slightly elevated. I know I am getting more than I need when my headaches return. My body and heavy metals don't get along, guess I shouldn't have played with mercury as a kid LOL!
I have been shooting indoors for quite a while. My BLL are within the norm as are those of my 2 young sons. A few suggestions:
1. Dont wear your range shoes inside the house. Wipe them with a wet towel before getting in your car.
2. If you handload be careful when you sift your brass. Dont breath in the cloud of dust (duh). Change the tumbling media often. It gets nasty with the lead dust from the primers.
Chelation Therapy and Germanium. He former gets rid of it but the second one is claimed to. I have no direct knowledge of either.
While in .mil, we used to pickup brass in our covers, not wash our hands, etc.
About 10 yrs ago I was shooting a lot more, and a lot of those rounds were my own 200 grn LWSCs. About 2003 or so, had my BLL checked and found it was 18!
Started getting real serious about gloving up when cleaning guns and loading, switching over to TMJ/JHP bullets for everything.
As of about 2008, my BLL is down to 4.
Of course, I'm not sure how much lead is in my bones.
For those of you who don't know, lead has a half-life, which means that if you aborb a bunch of it, you won't live nearly long enough for any significant quanity of it to be purged unless some of these lead treatments actually work.
Keeping it out of you is a helluva lot better than trying to get it out of you once it's there.
I don't wear my range shoes/boots into the house, I clean up with gojo soap or D-Lead if I can get it, don't eat at the range, don't wear my range clothes into the house, etc.
Another suggestion would be to put your range bag on a chair or bench if you're shooting indoors. Having dedicated indoor range clothing, and showering ASAP afterwards, as mentioned above is SOP.
Good info generally on this thread. Few updates:
PRIMERS = "LEAD STYPHNATE" - a lead compound which, when detonated, creates several lead-containing "salts" or compounds that can end up in your blood (and can accumulate in your bones). "Lead-free" or "non-toxic" primers exist, though the companies that make them have NOT figured out how to make such primers last more than 5 years reliably, so such primers effectively have a "shelf life." The Sig Arms Academy REQUIRES such primers. The EPA could eventually require such primers, and the fed gov has effectivley banned lead shot from use in waterfowl hunting. Expect prices for such components/ammo to be higher.
Breathing vs. ingestion (eating): most lead in the blood comes from ingestion. WASH YOUR FACE and your hands after shooting. The slide on your handgun throws particles and particle-containing smoke right at your lips every time it reciprocates. Wash your hands and eat with utensils (I am serious. Fries, pizza, burgers, I eat with a knife and fork if I have been shooting).
Calcium: is a metal, like lead. Your bones can absorb both calcium and lead. If you have a high level of calcium in your system, your bones are LESS likely to absorb the lead.
I previously tested @ BLL of 13; my most recent test was under 10 (they did not give me a number).
BTW, the PEDIATRIC limit for lead EXPOSURE is <10; the adult limit is higher. HOWEVER, most doctors simply apply the pediatric limit to adults - which is less likely to get anyone sued & results in the recommendation that the patient "avoid exposure." I understand that when leaded gasoline was in use, adults commonly had BLLs in the 20s.
lead on your hands is a minimal risk for lead poisioning. the big risk is inhalation of particles in the air after firing- a significant issue only on indoor ranges. Most of the risk is from the lead discharged from the PRIMER not the lead un bullets. If you shoot jacket bullets most of the time it does help. Non toxic loads for police training were developed in response to the issue of instructors getting lead poisioning. If you shoot on an indoor range a couple hours a week, the effect /risk is negligible but instructors who are on site for hours every day are at risk. Also in my area many older indoor ranges have backstops not designed to hold up to jacketed bullets and require plain lead bullets only which makes things worse of course
The_War_Wagon
06-01-10, 17:46
DO wear gloves when working around solvents and such. I learned reloading in '99, and as we were getting ready for Y2K, we did a LOT that year.
Ol' boy down in KY who taught me how to reload, used to soak his .30 Carbine LC cases in STP Oil Treatment, prior to reaming out the primer pocket. Pressing 10k of those cases into a an old Phillips head on a slow-turning drill press tore up my thumb, which got infected, and has NEVER healed right. Now my thumbnail is screwed up on top of it. :(
If I knew THEN, what I know NOW...
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