Grip Question

[Sparky5019]

OK, a little background first:

I have been shooting high level Cowboy Action Shooting for over 15 years so no stranger to competition and consistent technique. Have shot 1911s off and on over the years but nothing serious. New to the GLOCK. Have watched the Magpul handgun DVDs for refresher on gripping and shooting semi-autos. I am using the thumbs forward grip in isosceles style stance with Travis's 100% x2 grip. I am using a G22 and am right handed.


Question:

When the gun recoils, my reaction (support) hand grip is is broken. My weapon hand has control of the gun and it does not change but the reaction hand placement is broken loose. What is going on here?


I feel like I have consistent and equal muscle tension in both hands and arms. I feel like if I increase it any more I will be so tight as to make my sights quiver from the pressure. I understand that you can't stop the recoil so you should ride with it to a point but a certain amount of tension is necessary to control the gun to get consistent sight return and follow up shots. The tests I have done with this are just shooting for feel and not for accuracy as IMHO a gun that "feels" right will shoot right (as long as the bullets print where the sights are aligned) and this has been my experience in CAS.

Any ideas?...Or am I just smoking CRACK?:confused::p:eek:


Sparky

[jaxman7]

Hey Sparky here's a suggestion my instructor told me a while back concerning the wrist position of my reaction hand. "Try to torque your support wrist down. This will allow you to follow up on subsequent shots quicker and have better recoil management." Doing this right will basically make your thumb forward position be inline with your forearm. This technique helped reduce my muzzle rise. Hope this helps. Let me know if it does.

[skyugo]

not familiar with this 100% x2 grip..:confused:
the way i was taught was 60/40 60% of your grip coming from the support hand. this kinda frees up your trigger finger a bit in the tension department i think.

[Sparky5019]

Basically thee 100%x2 means that both hands have equal pressure because it is hard to judge what 60% is and what 40% is...especially under stress. Also, I do torque the wrist down so the thumb is forward and the hand cams down. I will try a few other things this afternoon. Will advise. Thanks.

Sparky

[John_Wayne777]

When the gun recoils, my reaction (support) hand grip is is broken. My weapon hand has control of the gun and it does not change but the reaction hand placement is broken loose. What is going on here?


Without seeing your grip in person it's difficult to say, but here are some suggestions:

- is there any gap between your strong hand and support hand on the grip?
- is your wrist completely locked? (Note that there is a difference between "thumbs forward" and a completely locked wrist)
- try bringing the weapon back from full extension slightly and applying side-to-side pressure using your pectoral muscles
- try pulling the support hand back slightly while pushing forward slightly with the strong hand. As a side benefit, this often helps to eliminate gaps in the grip.

What you're experiencing is not at all uncommon with semi-autos. What I've come to learn in the last couple of years is that few people have a truly good grip that provides for optimal control. You also happen to be shooting a pistol with some pretty bad recoil characteristics which doesn't help the situation any.

[Business_Casual]

As JW mentioned, there is little chance you can diagnose it on the Internet. Luckily, there are a bunch of great trainers near you in NC that can teach you proper grip, stance, etc. That would be my advice - take a class with one of them.

M_P

[Sparky5019]

JW,
As far as I can tell my wrists are locked. I will try more pect tension and see...I am noticing from vids and pics that the elbows are turned medially in som and not up to the sky. Does this help? I will try and advise. Many reasons for gun choice and will learn to shoot it well. Can change to a better game gun later if necessary.

Thanks,
Spencer

[skyugo]

Basically thee 100%x2 means that both hands have equal pressure because it is hard to judge what 60% is and what 40% is...especially under stress. Also, I do torque the wrist down so the thumb is forward and the hand cams down. I will try a few other things this afternoon. Will advise. Thanks.

Sparky

oh ok. i may revert to something more similar to that under fast paced shooting.
i find the fingers of my left and right hands tend to interlock pretty nicely. i think this may be vital to having your grip hold together.

[ras61541]

when going through the academy i had the same issue, everytime i made a shot i had to readjust my support hand. for the next few courses of fire i made a specific effort to maintain my grip with my support and keep it in place for my next shot. I can't say what exactly i changed or what i was doing wrong but eventually the problem went away...

[John_Wayne777]

JW,
As far as I can tell my wrists are locked. I will try more pect tension and see...I am noticing from vids and pics that the elbows are turned medially in som and not up to the sky. Does this help?


Unfortunately there is only so much you can learn from looking at pictures simply because there's so much you don't see in them. If you look around enough you'll see a massive variation in the way different people do it...even different people who are at high levels.

In general, keep these things in mind:

- You want to have your hands completely enclosing the grip

- You want your wrist truly locked. To understand what fully locked is, put your support hand in more or less the position it is in when on the weapon and push up on it with the other hand. If you have great difficulty rotating your wrist, then you're locking it.

- You want to keep a bend in your elbows to allow them to act as shock absorbers. How much of a bend you use can vary greatly from individual to individual. I tend to have my elbows bent quite a bit to bring the sights closer to my face, and because it gives me better control. To understand why, think of trying to smash a tin can between your hands closer to your chest vs. with your arms at full extension. Now some people lock their elbows out and have great success with it, but generally you'll see most advise some level of flex in the elbow.

- You want to grip REALLY HARD with your support hand. Work on making the support hand stronger and able to grip harder without tremor. The more you practice gripping really hard the harder you'll be able to grip without tremor. To give you some idea of what I'm talking about, after a 400 round practice session at the range my arms are smoked because I'm putting so much effort into gripping the gun, primarily with the left arm. That's because I'm taking it beyond a "firm" grip as I was originally taught and I'm thinking of crushing the mag well. Practice gripping the gun REALLY HARD...uncomfortably hard...at home to help build up your tolerance for it.

Here's a video of Jason Falla shooting a Glock in super slow-mo that illustrates some of what goes on during recoil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjbFHK8Kz1k

More grip discussion, including some useful videos, can be found here:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=338548

[Sparky5019]

JW,

Thanks for the great info. Wrists are locked...I think I really need much more range time to tweak things . Thanks for the links too, they are great!

Sparky

[Sparky5019]

JW,
I read the thread you posted, I tried the elbows out and locked my reaction hand wrist caudad (towards the ground) and the gun ran flatter and more consistently. I will practice more and I think it will be fine!

THANK YOU ALL for your help!

Sparky

[John_Wayne777]

Happy I could be of some small measure of assistance! Now what you need to do is play with things to find what works best for you. Since you have a competition background you probably are already ahead of the game since you have some pretty good ideas of what you should be able to do and of how useful a timer can be.

I've put several thousand rounds downrange in the last 12 months working on grip, primarily...and I'm still working on it. :D

[Sparky5019]

I do have a timer and will start range drills soon. I usually do some shooting for feel 1st then start checking accuracy and speed then tweak as needed. Don't worry, I'll come back for more info when needed. I will try to catch a Magpul classs sometime also! Thane again to all!

Sparky