View Full Version : Current Obama/Health Care Threads here
I think Obama care will crush our economy however I will gladly eat crow if it does not. I'm trying to get my friends and coworkers to save their receipts. Keep a power bill, grocery receipt and gas receipt. Note the cost of a unit of electricity and gas, a gallon of milk along with other basic items and gasoline. I'm putting it in my income tax folders so I can find them to compare against receipts a year or two from now. If I'm not paying considerably more for all those basic items I'll gladly eat crow.
I'll be 100% honest, I don't know what's even in the bill...
EzGoingKev
03-24-10, 07:20
I'll be 100% honest, I don't know what's even in the bill...
Don't feel bad, last I heard even President Obama admitted he didn't know what was in it.
Someone sent me a link to an article on it that is supposed to be pretty good but I haven't had a chance to read it yet.
WSJ Article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704207504575130321235660474.html)
Business_Casual
03-24-10, 07:25
Why was Webster at the bill signing?
M_P
Here's my take from the insurance industry.
It's 2,500 pages long. The insurance company has to pay lawyers to interpret what is in there and how to comply with it, premiums rise.
Insurance companies will no longer be able to deny for preexisting conditions. Higher risk pool, premiums rise.. I can't wreck my car and buy insurance two weeks later and get it fixed.
More people will have Medicaid and Medicare. They reimburse providers at rates from well over 20 years ago. They have to make up the difference somehow. Insurances will be charged more. Premiums rise.
Supply and demand. Demand goes up, costs go up. Premiums go up.
We already outsource to India. They plan to outsource another 30% of the company, people will lose their jobs, alot of people will lose their jobs. Alot of lower income people will lose their jobs, alot of minorities will lose their jobs too being as how our company is, direct from the website, an equal opportunity/ affirmitive action employer, more often than not they have lower paying jobs. customer service, claims processing, claims adjustor etc. But it will the fault of the ceo, cfo trying to keep the company afloat not the progressives in charge.
rifleman2000
03-24-10, 08:17
Taxes will go up. People get laid off.
Business will be forced to provide more insurance. People get laid off.
More people laid off, more people on governments teat. More people, more money needed.
Taxes go up some more. More people get laid off... so on and so forth.
It is the Democrat SOP.
ForTehNguyen
03-24-10, 08:17
I think Obama care will crush our economy however I will gladly eat crow if it does not. I'm trying to get my friends and coworkers to save their receipts. Keep a power bill, grocery receipt and gas receipt. Note the cost of a unit of electricity and gas, a gallon of milk along with other basic items and gasoline. I'm putting it in my income tax folders so I can find them to compare against receipts a year or two from now. If I'm not paying considerably more for all those basic items I'll gladly eat crow.
you will probably pay in the form of suppressed wages if youre not laid off that is. Unemployment is only guaranteed to go up along with prescription drug and insurance premium prices. This bill did nothing to address cost, just gave the Executive Branch gigantic control of the healthcare sector. Not only htis we still have the commercial real estate market about to cave and more ARM mortgages going to reset in 2010 and 2011. Not to mention the Bush tax cuts expiring at the end of 2010. If Bush tax cuts expire, thats more unemployment.
Not only that the restrictions imposed on insurance companies will destroy their profitability. Cant deny for pre existing conditions? That alone will kill them. That destroys the entire concept of insurance. Like buying house insurance AFTER my house burns down and being able to claim it. Then they will claim "oh look the free market didnt work, come to the govt plan" :rolleyes:
Of course Congress and the Democratic Leadership decide to explicitly exempt themselves, their staff, and anyone working for a member of Congress from the bill. That is the primary BS flag, if this was so good, why did they exempt themselves
EzGoingKev
03-24-10, 09:56
Insurance companies will no longer be able to deny for preexisting conditions. Higher risk pool, premiums rise.. I can't wreck my car and buy insurance two weeks later and get it fixed.
From talk radio yesterday they can still deny coverage, they just have to pay a fine. The fine is $100 per person denied.
WTF is $100 to the insurance company? Especially when medical bills can run into the hundreds of thousands.
ForTehNguyen
03-24-10, 10:05
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/7423
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hnqpvFwIwnw/S0pYD9Wo_qI/AAAAAAAAFEY/7TVEF-EuT7A/s1600/happy.jpg
From talk radio yesterday they can still deny coverage, they just have to pay a fine. The fine is $100 per person denied.
WTF is $100 to the insurance company? Especially when medical bills can run into the hundreds of thousands.
anyone have a link to this part? I want to use it for reference later edit: its $100/day but thats still a hell of a lot cheaper than treating you. And it will get blamed on the mean insurance companies and free market.
Bulldog1967
03-24-10, 10:05
http://tinyurl.com/yhwy4aq
See, just like gun control, this sham of a "healthcare" law isn't about caring for the sick, it's all about CONTROL.
This is the face of leftist fascism. :mad:
Business_Casual
03-24-10, 10:06
From talk radio yesterday they can still deny coverage, they just have to pay a fine. The fine is $100 per person denied.
WTF is $100 to the insurance company? Especially when medical bills can run into the hundreds of thousands.
OK, I fine you $100 for being named Kevin.
M_P
Belmont31R
03-24-10, 10:14
Yes. They are taking 600 billion in new taxes out of the economy. Its going to be harder to employ people, and hire new workers due to the mandates.
Private insurance is going to go up. Private insurance is a subsidy to the government plans, and the government plans pay pennies on the dollar to doctors for what private insurance pays more than the actual services really cost. This is because doctors and hospitals could not stay in business just treating government plan people as often times they lose money treating those patients.
Rarely is there such a thing as taxes on the rich because they are in the position to deflect those added costs into other segments. This includes business owners laying people off, cutting benefits, cutting pay, raising prices on products, etc. Its always the middle class, and somewhat the low income people who end up really paying for it. If you rich boss suddenly has to pay 20% more taxes in a year where do you think he is going to look to make up for that. Your paycheck, your benefits, etc. When you go to the grocery store you're going to pay more. The more taxes rise the less buying power your money has, and you might even start making less if you even keep your job.
This is why Europe historically has always had a much larger rate of unemployment than the US. Our recession numbers are somewhat normal for them. Many many more people over there are reliant on public transportation because they cannot afford to drive a car with the taxes, and 10 dollars for a gallon of gas. Mopeds are so popular over there because its the only way many can get around without sitting on a bus. The entire EU has around 500 million people, and barely has a higher collective GDP than the US at 300 million. High taxes create stagnant economies with tons of people reliant on the government. Less people go to secondary education there, their survival rates for disease is lower, their military's are almost a joke, and they are perhaps worse off in the debt department than the US is.
Yet the above is what our dear leader and crew want for us. A European style government where the people are not citizens but subjects (to their every whim). Obama complains 70k people a year die because they dont have health insurance. Ask Europe how many people die because their socialist systems have lower survival rates than we do.
In the long term taxes are going to have to go up to pay for all this. We are right now running about a 1.5 trillion yearly deficit. It has to go up. They are likely going to look at more taxes on this evil rich people and companies, more nickle and dime taxes on the people, raise the gas taxes, a VAT "sales tax" on top of our income taxes, high SS and medicare taxes, etc. A socialist government consumes far more money than what we are supposed to have- a small limited government. Check out what the Federal budget was 100 years ago compared to today after socialism has taken root in our system.
CharlieKilo
03-24-10, 10:33
According to this video of President Obama from last week. The government is going to end up paying small businesses to cover their employees and that I should ask for a raise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUd-slJc-GY
I showed this to my boss and asked for a raise...He told me to GTFO of his office.
The people who were for this bill believe what he is saying will actually be true.
ForTehNguyen
03-24-10, 11:03
the irony is illegals already get ER treatment under the current system. If you are illegal under the system you escape the mandate and probably still can get treatment. This smells like it increases the incentive to be illegal. Illegals would have more freedoms than us since they avoid the mandate and fine.
shouldn't we increase the supply of healthcare to lower costs, rather than increase the demand. just a thought. it would probably cost less overall, and improve our economy if medical school was funded 100% by the gov... course we really can't expect outside the box thinking from the government. :rolleyes:
Taxes will go up. People get laid off.
Business will be forced to provide more insurance. People get laid off.
More people laid off, more people on governments teat. More people, more money needed.
Taxes go up some more. More people get laid off... so on and so forth.
It is the Democrat SOP.
This will become a huge problem and mainly for the smaller businesses. Why would a small business that is currently struggling pay fines to keep people employed? They won't and I think we will see a jump in unemployment numbers because of this. And since there are so many programs for the unemployed, people will continue to pull money from the gov and not be out looking for jobs. This is just going to reward laziness and the cycle will continue to repeat as rifleman stated above.
S/F
Tim
I have been told that the tax increase on medical device makers (among other companies) will be offset by the increase in business. Who needs a device of sorts now and will all of the sudden go get it then? I struggle to see a direct increase in business for them, as most people who need any amount of care get it one way or another (via ER, etc). This, much like most legislation these days, seems to defy simple logic and cannot be figured out.
Why was Webster at the bill signing?
M_P
lol, that's what I was thinking.:D
When I heard this this morning I couldn't believe any democrat would actually admit the truth behind the obama care legislation. I heard on Rush that he has since called the radio station where he originally made the remark trying to retract his statement. Claiming he was too fatigued from the whole fight, and didn't mean to say what he had. Which is funny because we know that fatigue causes people to be off their guard, and thus be prone to blurt out the truth before thinking about it. Isn't that the reason that enhanced interrogation techniques use sleep deprivation? I wonder how much trouble representative Dingell received for letting the cat out of the bag?
Belmont31R
03-24-10, 12:57
shouldn't we increase the supply of healthcare to lower costs, rather than increase the demand. just a thought. it would probably cost less overall, and improve our economy if medical school was funded 100% by the gov... course we really can't expect outside the box thinking from the government. :rolleyes:
Part of this bill is all student loans are through the gov now, and at a higher rate than students are paying now.
If the gov outright pays for their school then they are going to want something back. Its basically nationalizing doctors... there is also already a program to pay people to become doctors- its called the military, and if you do it for all doctor students then why would they join the military to pay off their debts when they can work in the US as a civilian?
But either way its a flawed premise that costs go down if the government pays for something. We either pay increased costs at the doctors office or we pay higher taxes, and the way the gov wastes money it would end up costing us more with the government funding things.
rifleman2000
03-24-10, 12:59
Part of this bill is all student loans are through the gov now, and at a higher rate than students are paying now.
If the gov outright pays for their school then they are going to want something back. Its basically nationalizing doctors... there is also already a program to pay people to become doctors- its called the military, and if you do it for all doctor students then why would they join the military to pay off their debts when they can work in the US as a civilian?
But either way its a flawed premise that costs go down if the government pays for something. We either pay increased costs at the doctors office or we pay higher taxes, and the way the gov wastes money it would end up costing us more with the government funding things.
Right on. Higher doctor costs will be cheaper than paying the government to pay the bureaucracy to pay the doctor.
Belmont31R
03-24-10, 13:05
This will become a huge problem and mainly for the smaller businesses. Why would a small business that is currently struggling pay fines to keep people employed? They won't and I think we will see a jump in unemployment numbers because of this. And since there are so many programs for the unemployed, people will continue to pull money from the gov and not be out looking for jobs. This is just going to reward laziness and the cycle will continue to repeat as rifleman stated above.
S/F
Tim
Job numbers are not going to improve until we have a healthy business environment in this country, and everything Obama is doing is the exact opposite. More taxes, mandates, fines, and uncertainty.
The stimulus is/was a complete waste of money. You cannot pass a single spending bill that only provides short-term money, and then expect long term jobs out of it. They can fund projects but once the project is done so is the job it created.
With health insurance being mandatory there is no incentive for employers to provide insurance as a means of keeping quality workers around. They are better off, financially, to just pay the fine, and tell their employees to go on the government plan. Even with the "tax breaks" its still cheaper to stop paying for private insurance. The tax break thing is just a talking point for the dems to use but is not going to have any real impact on employers providing insurance. But that is the end goal here in this trojan horse of a law. Make it more desirable for businesses to throw their people into the government system, and that means insurance goes up and up until most people cannot afford it, and only the rich keep it while the middle and low income groups are on the gov plans.
I showed this to my boss and asked for a raise...He told me to GTFO of his office.
I'm trying this now and I'm expecting the response I receive will be very similar :)
woodandsteel
03-24-10, 13:19
M_P
Anti-incumbent: They all must go - the left for their attempt to destroy the country and the right for their failure to be effective opposition
If I were a rich man, I would put your sig line on every bilboard I could afford.
In the meantime, I will have to concetrate hard on saving my pennies and preparing for a rough time, economically speaking.
I'll be 100% honest, I don't know what's even in the bill...
Don't apologize, neither do the 219 Congressmen who voted FOR it..................
This is the same John Dingell who once called the ATF a "jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today."
I think I'd rank Congress much higher than the ATF on the "jack-booted fascist" scale these days, but if nothing else this shows that at least Dingell speaks his mind...
GermanSynergy
03-24-10, 14:26
I'm guessing it will be detrimental to our economy. I'm willing to bet that the next push will be a VAT, nationalization of private retirement accounts / 401K's and the like to begin paying for this boondoggle. Interesting times ahead, folks. :mad:
woodandsteel
03-24-10, 14:31
I'm guessing it will be detrimental to our economy. I'm willing to bet that the next push will be a VAT, nationalization of private retirement accounts / 401K's and the like to begin paying for this boondoggle. Interesting times ahead, folks. :mad:
That's my biggest fear.
I would say more, but I think I have already shortened my life span by getting worked up over this piece of entitlement.
CarlosDJackal
03-24-10, 14:40
Can you imagine growing up with a name like "Dingel"? :D
Can you imagine growing up with a name like "Dingel"? :D
Or going to boot camp???????
Semper Fi
Tim
arizonaranchman
03-24-10, 14:56
The ramifications of this bill and the many other outrages these communists will force upon us during their Kamikazee one-term assault on our country cannot be calculated. But common sense says if we're already teetering on bankruptsy as a nation and on the edge of a depression that this sort of thing will be like putting a match to gasoline.
They actually know this, and also have the "remedy" for that crisis when it befalls us, so it's intentional if you ask me. Prepare yourself for some very hard times ahead. I hope I'm wrong and all works out well, but we shall see soon enough. I hope this nation survives all this and emerges in a recognizable form some day. There's no place else to run though, so if this nation falls we're all toast. This nation is the "Alamo" basically.
GermanSynergy
03-24-10, 15:18
The ramifications of this bill and the many other outrages these communists will force upon us during their Kamikazee one-term assault on our country cannot be calculated. But common sense says if we're already teetering on bankruptsy as a nation and on the edge of a depression that this sort of thing will be like putting a match to gasoline.
They actually know this, and also have the "remedy" for that crisis when it befalls us, so it's intentional if you ask me. Prepare yourself for some very hard times ahead. I hope I'm wrong and all works out well, but we shall see soon enough. I hope this nation survives all this and emerges in a recognizable form some day. There's no place else to run though, so if this nation falls we're all toast. This nation is the "Alamo" basically.
You're 100% spot on. The Demikazis will try to "Deem & Pass" as many tax hikes & other socialist BS from now until January. They know that they are toast at the polls in November, and at this point are driven by blind ideology. At this point I'm not putting anything past them. These folks want to seize your assets, guns and severely curtail any other liberties that you presently have.
TriggerFish
03-24-10, 15:29
John Dingell? The NRA’s Golden Boy? The former NRA Director? The same guy who voted in favor of the 1994 “Assault” weapons ban and then resigned from the Board of Directors the day after the vote? The same Dingell who received the NRA’s Harlon B. Carter Award, despite voting for an outright gun BAN? The same Dingell that coined the term"jack-booted thugs" when referring to the BATF? THAT Dingell?
CharlieKilo
03-24-10, 18:20
Here is just one small sub-section of the 2800 page Health Care Bill.
‘SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE
HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.
... ‘(a) Tax Imposed- In the case of any individual who does not meet the
requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year,
there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of--‘(1)
the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year,
over‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect
to the taxpayer.'
Dragon Slayer
03-24-10, 18:35
Is anybody still happy that they taught the Republicans a lesson in the last election by not voting for them?:rolleyes:
So is anyone going to challenge a lib/progressive to save a receipt and compare it in a couple years?
How about you, are you going to do it to compare a couple years down the road?
Belmont31R
03-24-10, 20:18
Is anybody still happy that they taught the Republicans a lesson in the last election by not voting for them?:rolleyes:
Oh because McCain is such a great steward in the government? Like the legislation he just authored that would allow the gov to detain US citizens arrested on US soil to be detained indefinitely without charges? The McCain that wants amnesty, too? The McCain that basically put forward a similar health care scheme as what we have now with giving people "tax credits" for insurance? McCain-Feingold? The McCain that suspended his run for president to go back to DC to sign a multi-hundred billion dollar bail out most of the country was against?
Hey maybe when the GOP decides to run a candidate people can be enthusiastic about, and actually has more than a couple distinguishing points from someone like Obama the result will be different. Notice McCain's highest numbers were right after he announced the conservative Palin as his running mate? But oh no we gotta run a lefty like McCain, and expect the right to stand behind him?
I voted for him only because Palin was his running mate, and as a vote against Obama. Both my house rep, and senator are GTG.
Oh because McCain is such a great steward in the government? Like the legislation he just authored that would allow the gov to detain US citizens arrested on US soil to be detained indefinitely without charges? The McCain that wants amnesty, too? The McCain that basically put forward a similar health care scheme as what we have now with giving people "tax credits" for insurance? McCain-Feingold? The McCain that suspended his run for president to go back to DC to sign a multi-hundred billion dollar bail out most of the country was against?
Hey maybe when the GOP decides to run a candidate people can be enthusiastic about, and actually has more than a couple distinguishing points from someone like Obama the result will be different. Notice McCain's highest numbers were right after he announced the conservative Palin as his running mate? But oh no we gotta run a lefty like McCain, and expect the right to stand behind him?
I voted for him only because Palin was his running mate, and as a vote against Obama. Both my house rep, and senator are GTG.
I couldn't agree with you more. I try to imagine how great it would have been if Obama didn't win and I can't come up with a pretty picture. I voted for McCain only because of his military background and I feel that national security would have been high on his priority list. If the republicans don't wake up and put a conservative on the ticket in 2012 we are all screwed.
S/F
Tim
Dragon Slayer
03-24-10, 20:43
I voted for him only because Palin was his running mate, and as a vote against Obama. Both my house rep, and senator are GTG.
I voted for McCain only because of his military background and I feel that national security would have been high on his priority list. If the republicans don't wake up and put a conservative on the ticket in 2012 we are all screwed.
S/F
Tim
Neither one of you are in the group that my question was directed to. But make no mistake about it when the democraps finish with us and I hope it ends with Obama as a one term as president you will understand that even if McCain was not perfect it could have never been as bad as it will be with this one. Just my humble opinion.
Neither one of you are in the group that my question was directed to. But make no mistake about it when the democraps finish with us and I hope it ends with Obama as a one term as president you will understand that even if McCain was not perfect it could have never been as bad as it will be with this one. Just my humble opinion.
I will agree with you there. Even though it is cliche, I voted for the best of two evils. I think that belmont said it best about the republicans poor choice for a candidate. Until we get someone in office that is actually trying to reduce spending we will have a lot of bad to talk about on M4C. I hope that Obama is a one-term president but I fear that we will be seeing him until 2016.
S/F
Tim
Belmont31R
03-24-10, 21:13
Neither one of you are in the group that my question was directed to. But make no mistake about it when the democraps finish with us and I hope it ends with Obama as a one term as president you will understand that even if McCain was not perfect it could have never been as bad as it will be with this one. Just my humble opinion.
Honesty which is more dangerous....a CINC who wants "free everything" or one that thinks its cool to lock up US citizens captured on US soil indefinately without charges? McCain wanted tax credits ("free money") for people to purchase health ins, with his "reach across the aisle" stance his version probably would not be too far off from what we have now.
Tyranny can come from multiple angles.
And you know who the GOP is itching their nasty little fingers at at the man to beat Obama? Friggin gun banner forced health insurance Mitt Romney who may be actually worse than McCain. If they didn't learn anything from the last election the only hope for Romney being supported by the right is nothing but pure hatred of Obama, and democrats not turning out to vote like they did last time. I will not vote for him.
If we are going to get big statist presidents Id rather do it one fell swoop, and then fight it out than die of a thousand cuts by so called republicans. Id rather have higher taxes, and some insurance mandate than a president who is willing to toss Americans in jail, and throwing away the key without any charges.
But Im just trying to explain to you why people did put up a protest vote against republicans. Bush doubled our debt, the Patriot Act, expanded entitlement spending, and then our next choice is McCain...? What do you think someone like Obama could do with McCain's new bill he authored? McCain is the type that will have a steak in one hand, and a knife to stab you in the back with in the other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSTY7pAh-c
Dragon Slayer
03-24-10, 22:13
Honesty which is more dangerous....a CINC who wants "free everything" or one that thinks its cool to lock up US citizens captured on US soil indefinately without charges? McCain wanted tax credits ("free money") for people to purchase health ins, with his "reach across the aisle" stance his version probably would not be too far off from what we have now.
]
OK you are happy with what we got as president, I got it.:rolleyes:
The one thing you do not understand is there are no absolutes and you will never find some one that will have all the qualities you require in a president, when it comes to Mitt Romney at least he would have managed the economy better, McCain would have managed the security of the US better and either one of them would have been better then Obama.
Wait a little longer and you will see what expects you and all the ones that talk like you, it is easy to bloviate on the Internet we shall see what you are capable of doing when the time comes.:rolleyes:
Whatever you do, do NOT, under any circumstances, vote for an incumbent. IMHO all professional politicians are only in the GAME for their own benefit, they could care less about the average citizen, and are all belly up to the trough for themselves. They have fed off of us so long now that they don't know how to be honest anymore.
A historical perspective-
The Stamp Act of 1765.
The parallels between that and this health care scam are stark and real.
In 1776,the British,against English Common Law and without the consent of the colonists, demanded that every piece of paper was to be affixed with a stamp,and to enforce this law,allowed British troopers to enter on their own authority to any home or business to ensure compliance.
Now,in 2010,the federal government,against Constitutional law and without the consent of the governed, has taken it upon itself to demand that every American buy a product.To enforce this law,the IRS will act without a warrant to seize your income before you even receive it and conduct warrantless searches into your private life to ensure your compliance with this law.
The Stamp Act of 1765 brought about resentment,protests,and general sentiment of rebellion towards the British-which eventually fomented into the American Revolution.
Fast forward to the year 2010-
I see the protests.
I see the growing resentment.
Will our system of democratic elections or the Supreme Court that is supposed to rectify this Republic and keep government in line with the Constitution be able to correct these errors?
Only time will tell.
And if these errors are not corrected by current establishment of government,how long will the American people who once stood against the greatest empire on earth put up with the same tyranny that drove us to Revolution?
How long will we put up with federal agents snooping in our business to ensure compliance with this law,taking our income from us against our will and spending it for us before it even crosses our palms,forcing us to shutter our businesses because of an inability to comply with their demands,arresting the most stalwart resistors and offering them gulags for their noncompliance with the socialist agenda?
Will we put up with the federal government making our personal decisions for us with our own money?
Taxing,fining and arresting us for refusing to buy a product?
Will this health care scam be in the history books much like the Stamp Act,as but one of the precipitants of a War that will be fought to once again set men free of the yoke of tyrannical government in this great land?
Much like the colonists petitioned the British to follow their own law-we are in the process of petitioning the government by states laws and lawsuits to obey the law and cease and desist.
Will the government listen?
Or has the Tree of Liberty gone too long without its natural refreshment?
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” — Thomas Jefferson
" Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"-Patric Henry
I think its almost to the point that the politicians should understand who is serving who here, before they find several million people going to Washington with torches...
That's what I foresee.
citizensoldier16
03-24-10, 23:27
There is a saying...."Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
I sincerely hope we are not doomed. However, if we are to be so burdened as to follow in the footsteps of our Founding Fathers, I shall be glad to line up with you my brothers, shoulder to shoulder, and hoist the musket.
Belmont31R
03-25-10, 00:06
OK you are happy with what we got as president, I got it.:rolleyes:
The one thing you do not understand is there are no absolutes and you will never find some one that will have all the qualities you require in a president, when it comes to Mitt Romney at least he would have managed the economy better, McCain would have managed the security of the US better and either one of them would have been better then Obama.
Wait a little longer and you will see what expects you and all the ones that talk like you, it is easy to bloviate on the Internet we shall see what you are capable of doing when the time comes.:rolleyes:
I guess its asking too much to not have a president that either wants to socialize the country or one that wants to turn nationalist, and start throwing Americans in jail without any charges based on some definition the government comes up with in the name of security.
You're saying its really too much to ask for a leader who values rights, freedom, capitalism, liberty, and other American values.
Im not asking too much. Im asking for someone who is on the side of freedom, and not oppression. I don't care under what guise the oppression comes from either in the name of terrorism or wealth redistribution. They are two shades of the same color.
Mitt Romney? Oh yeah theres someone freedom loving people can get behind. Id be just as worried about him signing an AWB than I would Obama or some hair brained insurance scheme like he put in MA that is bankrupting that state.
Folks, some of you won't like hearing this but it's the truth.
Party trumps the person. A vote for a rock solid democrat congressman this fall is a vote for Pelosi as speaker. The majority party controls the agenda, committees, everything.
The republicans need to be dragged back to the right.
BTW, is anyone going to save a record (their receipts) to illustrate inflation?
One thing I was reading in the local newspaper, that was sent in by somebody, concerning the "death panels".. Ammittedly, I haven't had a chance to check it out for myself.. The man left a link and several quotes from the bill, If I understand it right If/when you are old and in failing health, A panel appointned by the Govt will review your case and, depending on your age, health, cost of continued care etc, a "end of life order" can be issued, This means, as I understand it,any and all meds,care, you need will be cut off, and you will be left to die..Also another quote from the bill is that when you start collecting social security, you will be REQUIRED to attend a "end of life" seminar every 5 years...So, as I see it, if this is true, This is the Govt's "Final Solution" for baby boomers like myself...nice, ****ing nazi bastards!!
Belmont31R
03-25-10, 10:01
Folks, some of you won't like hearing this but it's the truth.
Party trumps the person. A vote for a rock solid democrat congressman this fall is a vote for Pelosi as speaker. The majority party controls the agenda, committees, everything.
The republicans need to be dragged back to the right.
BTW, is anyone going to save a record (their receipts) to illustrate inflation?
They do, and electing Obama-lite's doesn't accomplish that. Electing people who want to throw American's in jail without charges indefinitely, electing people who sign AWB's and forced health insurance isn't going to accomplish that.
Our choice last time was a socialist or a nationalist.
Would you cut off your nose to spite your face by electing Romney just to get rid of Obama? Wait until Romney gets in there, and "reaches across the aisle" to sign another AWB like he did in MA. He is certainly not going to cut the budget, and put the country back on a track to fiscal solvency. His MA health care has put his state in such fiscal limbo they had to get a bail out from the feds of 300M just to pay for this years deficit in their health care program. Notice now he is attacking Obama's mandate in buying HC but thinks when he did it in his state is perfectly ok.
I think we can find a candidate that is at least center right. McCain and Romney ain't it.
I'd settle for someone with a little common sense, a basic understanding of the consitition and the bill of rights, and also understands the basic concept of not spending more than you take in, Frankly, I don't think a candidate like this exists. What went on here in the last 2 weeks, is yet another example of why term limits at every level are needed..But I also understand that'll never happen..The pigs are not going to vote themselves away from the trough...
CharlieKilo
03-25-10, 12:31
I'd settle for someone with a little common sense, a basic understanding of the consitition and the bill of rights, and also understands the basic concept of not spending more than you take in, Frankly, I don't think a candidate like this exists. What went on here in the last 2 weeks, is yet another example of why term limits at every level are needed..But I also understand that'll never happen..The pigs are not going to vote themselves away from the trough...
You know, this person ran for office in 2008, only everyone likes a front runner so he could only go so far.
Look what that got us. It is our own faults as we allow ourselves to be manipulated at every turn. We allow our opinions to be shifted based on what the most popular idea is at the time. Only problem is, we are told what is the most popular idea at that time, instead of discovering it for ourselves.
We buy in to the False Left vs. Right paradigm...We allow the media to tell us what they issues are and form our responses to them. The ruling class has done an amazing job of de-educating the population.
not good
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/rep-cantors-richmond-campaign-office-shot-overnight/
Belmont31R
03-25-10, 13:03
Notice the dems are getting all the mileage they can out of these attacks. Watched MSNBC last night for a couple hours. Nothing but blaming republicans and tea partiers for these attacks, and claiming democrats never attack republicans. I hope that douche "Ed" on MSNBC eats crow tonight now that an R has been attacked, and worse than anything thats happened to dems at this point.
Dems need something to distract from the HC bill they just passed. Whats not being reported too much is that dem leadership called the FBI and Capital Hill Police to give them a breifing (obviously LE didn't think it was serious enough to brief them on their own), and then started crying about how it was so serious they had to get briefed.
Icedaddy56
03-25-10, 13:05
Gee is anyone suprised there are hotheaded idiots on both sides of this issue. Voting booth, not violence. :mad:
ForTehNguyen
03-25-10, 13:30
Its only been a day and businesses are already giving bad vibes about Obamacare raising expenses:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703312504575141642402986422.html
ObamaCare Day One
Companies are already warning about higher health-care costs.
Democrats dragged themselves over the health-care finish line in part by repeating that voters would like the plan once it passed. Let's see what they think when they learn their insurance costs will jump right away.
Even before President Obama signed the bill on Tuesday, Caterpillar said it would cost the company at least $100 million more in the first year alone. Medical device maker Medtronic warned that new taxes on its products could force it to lay off a thousand workers. Now Verizon joins the roll of businesses staring at adverse consequences.
In an email titled "President Obama Signs Health Care Legislation" sent to all employees Tuesday night, the telecom giant warned that "we expect that Verizon's costs will increase in the short term." While executive vice president for human resources Marc Reed wrote that "it is difficult at this point to gauge the precise impact of this legislation," and that ObamaCare does reflect some of the company's policy priorities, the message to workers was clear: Expect changes for the worse to your health benefits as the direct result of this bill, and maybe as soon as this year.
Mr. Reed specifically cited a change in the tax treatment of retiree health benefits. When Congress created the Medicare prescription drug benefit in 2003, it included a modest tax subsidy to encourage employers to keep drug plans for retirees, rather than dumping them on the government. The Employee Benefit Research Institute says this exclusion—equal to 28% of the cost of a drug plan—will run taxpayers $665 per person next year, while the same Medicare coverage would cost $1,209.
In a $5.4 billion revenue grab, Democrats decided that this $665 fillip should be subject to the ordinary corporate income tax of 35%. Most consulting firms and independent analysts say the higher costs will induce some companies to drop drug coverage, which could affect about five million retirees and 3,500 businesses. Verizon and other large corporations warned about this outcome.
U.S. accounting laws also require businesses to immediately restate their earnings in light of the higher tax burden on their long-term retiree health liabilities. This will have a big effect on their 2010 earnings.
While the drug tax subsidy is for retirees, companies consider their benefit costs as a total package. The new bill might cause some to drop retiree coverage altogether. Others may be bound by labor contracts to retirees, but then they will find other ways to cut costs. This means raising costs or reducing coverage for other employees. So much for Mr. Obama's claim that if you like your coverage, you can keep it—even at Fortune 500 companies.
In its employee note, Verizon also warned about the 40% tax on high-end health plans, though that won't take effect until 2018. "Many of the plans that Verizon offers to employees and retirees are projected to have costs above the threshold in the legislation and will be subject to the 40 percent excise tax." These costs will start to show up soon, and, as we repeatedly argued, the tax is unlikely to drive down costs. The tax burden will simply be spread to all workers—the result of the White House's too-clever decision to tax insurers, rather than individuals.
A Verizon spokesman said the company is merely addressing employee questions about ObamaCare, not making a political statement. But these and many other changes were enabled by the support of the Business Roundtable that counts Verizon as a member. Verizon CEO Ivan Seidenberg's health-reform ideas are 180 degrees from Mr. Obama's, but Verizon's shareholders and 900,000 employees and retirees will still pay the price.
Businesses around the country are making the same calculations as Verizon and no doubt sending out similar messages. It's only a small measure of the destruction that will be churned out by the rewrite of health, tax, labor and welfare laws that is ObamaCare, and only the vanguard of much worse to come.
John Deere and Caterpillar are reporting its going to cost them 100s of millions of dollars. Guess what that means...lay offs. Tax increases are absolutely moronic during a recession and will only guarantee higher unemployment rates.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094104575143723100528284.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business
Alpha Sierra
03-25-10, 13:55
I am convinced that this country is no longer fixable via the ballot box or the soap box.
Let financial ruin get here sooner rather than later and let's get it on. It's the only hope left for the reconstitution of a true democratic republic based on the original principles of 1789, except this time the Constitution needs to be strengthened so that it can't be gamed like it has been since the 1930s. Even if that new republic includes not all of the current 50 states. IMO, some are no longer worthy of the name.
Or going to boot camp???????
Semper Fi
Tim
He could use a little Parris Island....FRONT LEAN and no RESTing on your Dengel! Yeh I know that was cheesy.
ForTehNguyen
03-25-10, 13:59
if 2010/2012 doesnt work, national bankruptcy is the only thing that can repeal some of this crap
CharlieKilo
03-25-10, 13:59
Its only been a day and businesses are already giving bad vibes about Obamacare raising expenses:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703312504575141642402986422.html
John Deere and Caterpillar are reporting its going to cost them 100s of millions of dollars. Guess what that means...lay offs. Tax increases are absolutely moronic during a recession and will only guarantee higher unemployment rates.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094104575143723100528284.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business
Exactly their motive and expected outcome. This will open the door for even more illegal migrant workers to cross our border who will receive care under the new bill but are exempt from its penalties and taxes. Of course the corporations will than be able to hire new "Exempt" employees who also happen to be willing to work for less.
I see what you did there.
woodandsteel
03-25-10, 14:09
Its only been a day and businesses are already giving bad vibes about Obamacare raising expenses:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703312504575141642402986422.html
John Deere and Caterpillar are reporting its going to cost them 100s of millions of dollars. Guess what that means...lay offs. Tax increases are absolutely moronic during a recession and will only guarantee higher unemployment rates.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094104575143723100528284.html?mod=WSJ_newsreel_business
I was just watching America Live with Megan Kelly of FNC. Apparently NYC Mayor Bloomberg is worried about this bill. They are predicting huge monetary losses for NYC with Federal Taxes and lost revenue.
It's kind of bad when you lose someone like Bloomberg.
Gee is anyone suprised there are hotheaded idiots on both sides of this issue. Voting booth, not violence. :mad:
there are lots if idiots out there. unfortunately, i think it will get a lot worse before it gets better...
Belmont31R
03-25-10, 14:27
I am convinced that this country is no longer fixable via the ballot box or the soap box.
Let financial ruin get here sooner rather than later and let's get it on. It's the only hope left for the reconstitution of a true democratic republic based on the original principles of 1789, except this time the Constitution needs to be strengthened so that it can't be gamed like it has been since the 1930s. Even if that new republic includes not all of the current 50 states. IMO, some are no longer worthy of the name.
I think the divide too great, and there is nothing to compromise on anymore.
Democrats have evolved to be marxist in nature, and that is not compatible with any "traditional" American values which a healthy number of people want to keep.
When democrats were more traditional, and debate was relatively minor we had a country. The JFK type democrats have been replaced with the FDR/Obama types. "Blue dogs" are what used to make up the democratic party, and now they are not even a road bump on the left.
One side has to "win". Not saying that means violence, war, or anything else like that. I hope for our sake come November, and in 2012 the American people choose traditional America, and we have a person who values our founding principles.
TriggerFish
03-25-10, 14:44
At least the art community will be helped by the HC bill...
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Wacky%20Images/OBAMACAREstatuecopy.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Wacky%20Images/?action=view¤t=OBAMACAREstatuecopy.jpg)
...this should cost millions!
Did any one catch this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_wx4qkobk&feature=player_embedded
I love the opening stats, 88% white. Isn't about 13-15% of the population black? Those damn racist tea people :p White Devils the whole lot of 'em.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
.
The Tim McViegh fan club is hard at work again.
:mad:
Very few situations I encounter do I recommend violence, but given the fact they (politicians) have stopped listening and have started completely and blatantly disregarding our wishes without fear of punishment, I don't see a different way...
The answer isnt something most people want to except, and it doesnt matter how I say it, it still sounds like the worst possible answer. But unfortunately, look what kind of people we are dealing with here, they dont exactly learn with out severe consequence. I just hope we do something before its too late. I dont want to sit on my ass and talk about how something needs to be done until the government has such a hold on me and others that we can't.
What would the founding fathers have done?
.
Vote the bastards out next November.
:cool:
ETA:
Looks like a seperate Reynolds Wrap thread was eliminated and the remnants were dumped up here on the Obama/Health care manure pile. Seems like a few posts just disaapeared. The context of - and lead-in to -- post # 69 got thrown out with a bunch of other trash. I'm not complaining -- a good clean-up keeps the rest of the Forum from from getting all cluttered up.
Very few situations I encounter do I recommend violence, but given the fact they (politicians) have stopped listening and have started completely and blatantly disregarding our wishes without fear of punishment, I don't see a different way...
The answer isnt something most people want to except, and it doesnt matter how I say it, it still sounds like the worst possible answer. But unfortunately, look what kind of people we are dealing with here, they dont exactly learn with out severe consequence. I just hope we do something before its too late. I dont want to sit on my ass and talk about how something needs to be done until the government has such a hold on me and others that we can't.
What would the founding fathers have done?
this ^^
Alpha Sierra
03-25-10, 20:07
What would the founding fathers have done?
They would have started an armed, violent revolution and overthrow of the sitting government.
scary but true - i mentioned on another thread - vote them all out and give money/vote to folks that will not fund any of these provisons and vote to repeal. It will be a campaign sloggan of some type I am sure.
Only problem with all this is that nothing happened.
It wasn't Cantor's office, it was a building miles away where his mass mailing are put together. And it wasn't shot at, the window caught a bullet on a downward trajectory, which broke the glass but landed in front of the blinds. In other words, the building caught a stray.
Alternately, some Democratic gun owner out there is a ballistics genius, who fired a shot in the air at precisely the correct angle to make it through the glass but stop less than six inches inside the building. Unfortunately, I think Bob Lee Swagger is fictional.
.
The Tim McViegh fan club is hard at work again.
:mad:
The quick to judgment fan club is quick to react as well.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPSXB0pVWgnTggpu-KnVqhophahwD9ELT6600
http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2010/03/richmond_pd_bul.php
They would have started an armed, violent revolution and overthrow of the sitting government.
Maybe I should have asked, "What did the founding fathers do?"
I mean, its not like we have not tried on a civil level. We have held tea parties to exclaim peacefully that we do not wish for the government to vote the way they did, and they label us as extremist groups. They group any and everybody against their agendas as either potential domestic terrorists, they label our Veterans as potential domestic terrorists, they actually get on national television and state that the more of Americas citizens are opposed to a bill the harder they will work to pass it:eek:
Its gotten to a point where when these people open there mouths, the things that come out of them are even more astounding time and time again. Each time its something more shamelessly power hungry to a point now they gloat that they accomplished passing a overwhelmingly unpopular bill that they thought was the best for this country.
This is no shy news to most on here but might I remind some that turning a republic to a democracy with no checks and balances is the first step to turning the government into a entity that is governed shamelessly and openly by a very small group? Also called an oligarchy, which eventually leads to power hungry individuals taking control. If you think its all conspiracies and boogymen but when a nation is in tough economic times, its masses of lemmings are the most vulnerable to a smooth talking charismatic wolf in sheep's clothing......
I think people feel they have exhausted all other options to get politicians attention. We begged and pleaded with England for a long ass time before we took up arms. I think we've been begging and pleading with these clowns for a while now and frankly, connecting the dots, it makes sense some people believe it is time for such acts.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Wonder what'll happen when Mike Vanderboegh and his group go on their march?
COPY PASTE DONT CLICK THE LINK THEY CAN TRACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/03/21/decide-health-care-victory-america/
We're losing by 2%
when the bridges of Lexington and Concord are revisited to see history played out again with what is going to happen this summer with the u.n. hearing on small arms control ! it seams every 3/4 months a goal of puppet masters are bring met since the election ,i think ''immigration reform '' and ''gun control'' or worst a drive over the cliff coming soon???
Post your thoughts, discussions here.
if 2010/2012 doesnt work, national bankruptcy is the only thing that can repeal some of this crap
Don't worry, it's coming... To borrow a quote from the Bible "No man knows the day, nor the hour, for I shall come upon you like a thief in the night"
They do, and electing Obama-lite's doesn't accomplish that. Electing people who want to throw American's in jail without charges indefinitely, electing people who sign AWB's and forced health insurance isn't going to accomplish that.
Our choice last time was a socialist or a nationalist.
Would you cut off your nose to spite your face by electing Romney just to get rid of Obama? Wait until Romney gets in there, and "reaches across the aisle" to sign another AWB like he did in MA. He is certainly not going to cut the budget, and put the country back on a track to fiscal solvency. His MA health care has put his state in such fiscal limbo they had to get a bail out from the feds of 300M just to pay for this years deficit in their health care program. Notice now he is attacking Obama's mandate in buying HC but thinks when he did it in his state is perfectly ok.
I think we can find a candidate that is at least center right. McCain and Romney ain't it.
What are you willing to do? For the first time in my life I went to my local precinct caucus to decide who makes it to the primaries this summer.
I intend to do what I can to pull the republicans to the right at the local and state level.
Belmont31R
03-25-10, 22:59
What are you willing to do? For the first time in my life I went to my local precinct caucus to decide who makes it to the primaries this summer.
I intend to do what I can to pull the republicans to the right at the local and state level.
My House rep is John Carter who is very conservative. He will get my vote...
Next senate race Ill vote for a conservative primary challenger....even if they don't win I at least want my current senator to be on his toes. Cornyn is "meh".
I donate money to candidates I want to see win. I last donated to Scott Brown even though he is 1000 + miles away. I put out signs, and try to educate those I come into contact with. Engage in debate with lefties....
I do admit if I were to keep track of what every elected person does that I can vote for or against in the future it would consume my entire time. From school boards, county judges, mayor, city council, and up to the POTUS. I do the best I can to keep track of issues.
My House rep is John Carter who is very conservative. He will get my vote...
Next senate race Ill vote for a conservative primary challenger....even if they don't win I at least want my current senator to be on his toes. Cornyn is "meh".
I donate money to candidates I want to see win. I last donated to Scott Brown even though he is 1000 + miles away. I put out signs, and try to educate those I come into contact with. Engage in debate with lefties....
I do admit if I were to keep track of what every elected person does that I can vote for or against in the future it would consume my entire time. From school boards, county judges, mayor, city council, and up to the POTUS. I do the best I can to keep track of issues.
You're doing a heck of a lot more than most. Good for you! I'm not as fortunate as you, I have a dem that voted for Obama Care in the US House and both senators are dems. I'm going to do what I can to change that since we also have a senate and governors race this year.
I worked for the Bush/Cheney and Coors senate campaigns in 2004. I plan on volunteering this year too.
Regarding engaging in debate with lefties, that's why I'm going to save a few receipts. Anyone with a sophomoric knowledge of our economic system knows inflation is coming in a big way. That's without cap and trade.
Supposedly in Missouri on I-70
http://www.shire.net/billboard%20-%20I-70%20in%20Missouri.jpg
This is what one of the Guys I work with came up with, I'll post the e-mail we circulated at work but this is just what we're doing. Those of you who are interested, I suggest you get with your co-workers and do something similar.
I'd like to add, we are all Union workers who don't support the Unions position on politics.
Abitibibowater Brothers for Freedom
After last Sundays healthcare vote, myself and many others are angry that Congress ignored the will of the American people. Well, I'm not going to ignore them in return. If you are looking for an opportunity to do something about it, this is your opportunity. I am asking each of you to join with me in raising money to unseat 2, and possibly 4, of the Congressmen who changed from a "No" vote to a "Yes."
We have selected 2 Congressmen, John Boccieri from Ohio and Scott Murphy from New York. These 2 voted for Obama Care switching sides on the day of the vote. One reason that we have selected them to attempt to unseat is that they are both 1st term Congressmen and stand to be in Congress for a long time if not defeated now. It is time to show our newbys in Congress that we will no longer settle for their socialist agenda. They are both seeking re-election this fall.
John Boccieri will be challenged by Republican Jim Renacci, a former mayor and businessman in the healthcare field for 25 years. Scott Murphy will be challenged by Col. Chris Gibson, a retired military Colonial and history scholar of Sienna College. Both men have vowed, if elected, to fight to resend the health care bill.
What I am asking from my Abitibibowater conservatives is to please give $10 dollars a month for the next 4 months to be sent to Jim's and Chris' campaigns. I already have commitments of $200. I realize that this is just 2 seats, but it is something that we can do. Both of these Congressional races are expected to be highly contested.
If you are willing to join in with $10 a month, please email me back and we will go from there. Also, if you know anyone else who would like to join in, please contact them and bring them aboard. If we can raise enough money we will support 2 more Congressional challenges, one in Florida and another in Colorado. Thanks for you consideration and time.
What pisses me off is that I have to pay a 10% tax when I go tanning... F*CK!
Dragon Slayer
03-26-10, 17:59
What pisses me off is that I have to pay a 10% tax when I go tanning... F*CK!
You will end up paying a lot more to cure the skin cancer you might get (G-D forbid) from tanning so do not worry about the tax.;)
What pisses me off is that I have to pay a 10% tax when I go tanning... F*CK!
It's racist and sexist. A tax mainly aimed at white women.
I'm being a little facetious but if the shoe were on the other foot...
ForTehNguyen
03-26-10, 19:21
AT&T is estimating a $1B expense to pay for the new healthcare rules:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-26/at-t-to-take-1-billion-charge-on-health-care-reform-update1-.html
I HOPE you have CHANGE left
You will end up paying a lot more to cure the skin cancer you might get (G-D forbid) from tanning so do not worry about the tax.;)
Yeah, but I'll be tan ;) lol
It's racist and sexist. A tax mainly aimed at white women.
I'm being a little facetious but if the shoe were on the other foot...
I know, my GF and I are p*ssed... We are thinking of filing a law suit lol
Belmont31R
03-27-10, 10:08
I've said it a few times but FDR was a socialist, and much of the welfare nation we have today stems from his 4 terms. Other things he did, like court packing, gave us SCOTUS rulings which ushered in the era of a government who can do anything.
Here is the "Economic Bill of Right's" FDR put forward during the 1944 State of the Union speech to Congress:
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.”[2] People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.
Basically to the far left the Bill of Rights in the Constitution does not go far enough, and even once the 2nd Bill of Rights is completed we must go even further.
Now look at the list, and how many of these "rights" have been implemented? We are a lot closer to being a socialist country whether we want to admit it or not. In this country now you can be poor, and food will be provided. A place to live will be provided. An education will be provided. Sometimes cars, cell phones, and they are even talking about internet access being a right. With this bill being signed health care is being provided, and Harry Reid declared HC a right.
There are a lot of definitions of socialism.....but its main ideology is economic. Communism, socialism, and capitalism are all economic concepts. Communism is the government owns the means of production, socialism is worker, and government owned industry, and capitalism is privately owned.
At this point in Obama's presidency what has he done? He used the TARP program to take control of 2 out of 3 automotive companies, and turned them into worker/gov owned operations (UAW owns a lot of both Chrysler and GM now). unemployment has been extended to around 2 years now, this health care bill is socializing medicine, banks and lenders have been taken over, and there is the bill working its way through Congress that would allow the Fed to seize a financial institution, fire its BOD/CEO, its assets split up and sold, and a new BOD/CEO's will be named at the Fed's discretion. Our financial industry is going to be put on the chopping block, and controlled from DC. Cap and Trade is also still in Congress, and our energy sector will, just like the financial industry, be controlled from DC. Part of the HC bill not getting a lot of attention is student loans are only through the government now. No going to the bank to get a loan.
There is a new movement revolving around making retirement a public responsibility above and beyond what Social Security does. Remember the last part of what FDR said. As these economic bill of rights are phased in we need to look to the next steps. The next steps are complete take overs of our industry, and "for the public good" private companies will be "eased out". The socialists will point fingers at all the injustices perpetrated at the hands of private industry, and how the workers need to be in charge with the help of the government. You know why Obama made it a point of dissing the Supreme Court in his State of the Union speech? What was it about. Private industry having a voice. These people do not like their opposition, and their victims to have a voice. He wants them to sit down a shut up. Makes their job easier. They view companies as being there not as its purpose to make money but as public utilities, and profit should be avowed. They will give speeches about how private industry just makes money off the back and off the lives of the American people, and what an injustice it is.
There really is a fine line between capitalism, and socialism when put things on paper. With just a few tweaks over the years we are here fellas. Just a couple more, and there will be no denial about it. Started with Social Security. Then we got Medicare. The poor and the kids needs security too, and we gave them Medicaid/SCHIP, unemployed got money, welfare, food stamps, etc etc etc. Just a few things passed over the years is what has done it. Wasn't a coup with blood running in the streets. A few votes, and a few signatures is all its taken.
Now in 10 years its reported every Federal tax dollar will go to debt, and entitlement spending. Every dollar we take in. We can't even afford our military anymore. Can't provide a national defense without going into debt. For you lefties reading this whats your answer? You want to bash the right for not having a health care plan. Whats your plan to solve this fiscal mess that is bigger than anything else? Going to raise taxes? Look what the HC bill did. Companies coming out being hurt big time by this. Who's going to provide the jobs if the employers are taxed to death? We already have some of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. Going to bleed them some more? You think Uncle Sam can provide the jobs with more stimulus spending? Thats worked out so well so far hasn't it. Don't worry we've been down this road before. FDR tried it in the 30's, and we went through 2 more recessions after the Great Depression until WW2 started, and the USA got a bail out. When FDR take 2 is also a failure, and its proven once again government spending does not turn an economy around...whats going to be our bail out this time? Iran nuking the Jews Obama doesn't seem to like all that much? Maybe the Jew's will nuke them first because America has turned its back on Israel, and is being backed into a corner. So whats the plan? Keep plugging away adding more debt, more entitlements, and just "hoping" the economy gets better? What do you think is going to happen when you tax companies that are already trying to get by in a very tough economy where every dollar counts. Where the difference is people's jobs. Do you think these private companies are just fat cats sitting on piles of money? Do you understand what thin margins people are at right now? You let Obama trick you into thinking the insurance companies were so bad. Gee they have single digit profit margins, and deny less claims than Medicare does. When these insurance companies go under, and all these people are laid off who is going to hire them? Are they going to work for the government? So instead of being tax payers they are going to be burdens on other tax payers? Who is going to replace all the money insurance companies put into the stock market?
One history lesson the left has never grasped is government cannot bring prosperity to people. They can promote it by allowing people the freedom to do business, and they can also snuff it out by taking away business. They cannot provide prosperity. The idea of a small government riding on the back of an economy is a sound ideology. A small government will not weigh the economy down much. A huge bloated government will be such a burden the economy falls to its knees, and tries to crawl. We are crawling right now, and the left is adding more weight.
I remember John Kerry said around a year and a few months ago we needed a second New Deal. The New Deal was FDR's stimulus fund. They tried the same thing and it didn't work. We are repeating history. Obama's policies are prolonging this recession just like FDR's did. We are adding new entitlements that are going to burden us down. I find it fitting that this year, 2010, will be the first year Social Security pays out more than it takes in. FDR signed that one into law in the middle of the worst economic period in history. I also find it fitting...the line about the hungry and unemployed creating dictators. Isn't the economy the real reason Obama won? It was beaten into people's heads Bush caused the recession, and thus we got Obama. FDR was right about that.
arizonaranchman
03-27-10, 14:49
I hope I'm wrong but i really don't see anything in the future of this country but an economic collapse. The debt is so staggering it's beyond all comprehension. There's absolutely no way to pay it off and we also have morons in office who refuse to pay the price that must be paid to reign in spending. Their arrogance and self-serving political games have destroyed this country.
Thanks to the Obamination increasing the money supply by 120% you can look for inflation like has never been seen before in this country. (When Carter increased the money supply by 13% in the 70's thats how we got 20% interest rates - so try and imagine what Obama has now done to us with a 120% increase??). Then runaway interest rates that inevitably follow in an effort to combat the inflation. Who knows... 20-30% interest rates or more? In a few years the Dollar (if it hasn't collapsed completely) will be worth 1/4 of what it is now thanks to inflation.
Once the collapse is complete we need to summon per Article 5 a constitutional convention and address the problems we've had with a runaway, out of control federal government. Strip federal judges of their power, fire every last congressman and the president and set SINGLE TERM limits on every office. Also include language plain even to the idiots of today what the federal government's LIMITED role is in our lives, etc. The fed needs to be cut back about 80-90% to bring it to it's correct actual constitutional role. This is a tyranny so complete and all-encompassing that many don't even realize how bad it is. They wear a mask of benevolence but behind it is an iron fist. They're far more dangerous to our welfare and survival as a nation than any enemy on this earth. When this is all over they should all be prosecuted for Treason.
Cagemonkey
03-27-10, 15:35
I'm no lawyer or constitutional scholar. I was looking through my copy of the Constitution recently. I was searching for the "Commerce Clause" that the White House spokesman says justifies the Health Care bill. While doing so I noticed the 16th and 17th Amendments. Signed into law in February 3, 1913 and April 8, 1913. Glen Beck has mentioned the Progressive Era of the early 1900's. Notice the dates and their proximity to one another. These two Amendments laid the foundation of Big Brother Gov't as we know it. The 16th Amendment allowed the Feds to directly tax the people and usurp the State Governments. The 17th Amendment allowed the people to vote for their US Senators through direct Democracy as opposed to be appointed by their State Legislatures. The direct tax revenue fed the Beast. Direct Democracy undermined our Republican form of Government. Our founding Fathers were very apprehensive of true/direct Democracy and the tyranny of the majority.
Belmont31R
03-27-10, 16:14
I hope I'm wrong but i really don't see anything in the future of this country but an economic collapse. The debt is so staggering it's beyond all comprehension. There's absolutely no way to pay it off and we also have morons in office who refuse to pay the price that must be paid to reign in spending. Their arrogance and self-serving political games have destroyed this country.
Thanks to the Obamination increasing the money supply by 120% you can look for inflation like has never been seen before in this country. (When Carter increased the money supply by 13% in the 70's thats how we got 20% interest rates - so try and imagine what Obama has now done to us with a 120% increase??). Then runaway interest rates that inevitably follow in an effort to combat the inflation. Who knows... 20-30% interest rates or more? In a few years the Dollar (if it hasn't collapsed completely) will be worth 1/4 of what it is now thanks to inflation.
Once the collapse is complete we need to summon per Article 5 a constitutional convention and address the problems we've had with a runaway, out of control federal government. Strip federal judges of their power, fire every last congressman and the president and set SINGLE TERM limits on every office. Also include language plain even to the idiots of today what the federal government's LIMITED role is in our lives, etc. The fed needs to be cut back about 80-90% to bring it to it's correct actual constitutional role. This is a tyranny so complete and all-encompassing that many don't even realize how bad it is. They wear a mask of benevolence but behind it is an iron fist. They're far more dangerous to our welfare and survival as a nation than any enemy on this earth. When this is all over they should all be prosecuted for Treason.
The democrats, and particulary the progressives have put us into such a bind financially the ONLY way to pay it off, and not cause the economy to shrivel up is to start phasing out entitlement spending. Right now the entitlement spending, and the debt it has caused eats up a significant portion of the budget. As I said above in 10 years every dollar the gov takes in will be spent on debt, and entitlement spending.
I'm sure they are going to try and put a VAT tax in on us. Nothing will stiffle economic reovery like an additional sales tax will on top of an income tax that is going to go up once the Bush tax cuts expire soon. People are going to be looking at 50% in taxes just in the middle class range, and 70% in the "rich classes" all those dollars being diverted to the government, and not into our economy. And it still isn't enough to feed DC. A VAT tax is going to cut economic growth while expenses go up.
You can name quite a few countries who did themselves in with debt. You cant name any that did themselves in by having a small government with little debt. Greece is the latest example. The rest of Europe is in bad shape, and we are going to be looking at a debt that is going to take 100 years to pay off even if we stop borrowing another dollar. The fed is having to play shell games to keep the bond auctions going.
The dems really cooked the books with this HC bill. They designed the bill to get a good CBO score, and even then all it is, in reality, is a guess. No government program, especially of this size, has ever come in under budget. This damn thing is going to cost us trillions we don't have in the next few decades. No doubt about it. Especially with no sign of the economy getting any better, and companies coming out saying its going to be costing them hundreds of millions a year each.
Belmont31R
03-27-10, 16:25
I'm no lawyer or constitutional scholar. I was looking through my copy of the Constitution recently. I was searching for the "Commerce Clause" that the White House spokesman says justifies the Health Care bill. While doing so I noticed the 16th and 17th Amendments. Signed into law in February 3, 1913 and April 8, 1913. Glen Beck has mentioned the Progressive Era of the early 1900's. Notice the dates and their proximity to one another. These two Amendments laid the foundation of Big Brother Gov't as we know it. The 16th Amendment allowed the Feds to directly tax the people and usurp the State Governments. The 17th Amendment allowed the people to vote for their US Senators through direct Democracy as opposed to be appointed by their State Legislatures. The direct tax revenue fed the Beast. Direct Democracy undermined our Republican form of Government. Our founding Fathers were very apprehensive of true/direct Democracy and the tyranny of the majority.
FDR's court packing gave us the ruling that interstate commerce is intrastate commerce, and that anything that affects interstate commerce can be regulated.
The constitutional meaning of it, as written with the definitions of the words at the time, means to literally bring commerce into alignment, and make it orderly. The meaning does not give the gov the authority to cut off commerce as they did with student loans, buying guns across state lines, etc. The government is supposed to be there to promote commerce not cut it off. Think about regulating a double barrel shotgun. You have to align both barrels so they both shoot to the same place. When you regulate the shotgun you don't cut the barrels in half, and throw them in the trash. You are making the gun work properly. The government is supposed to promote the economy by creating laws and regulations so the economy runs smoothly. Progressives have taken that so far out of context they take it to mean the gov is an all ruling power that is a dictator to the economy, and can take over entire segments of the same. To tell people they cannot engage in commerce across state lines. Its really a perversion of the Constitution.
Yes taking away the states rights to elect our senators means the states are now held liable for programs and bills Congress enacts into law yet the states have no say in the federal government anymore. The left knows, if given the chance, people will elect those who promise them the most, and that people are generally irrational. We have about a 1/3rd of the people in this country putting food on the table by means of the government, and that is only a 15-20% margin we have for people to go against the margin feeding themselves through the government. I think next they want a popular vote to elect the president, and do away with the electoral college. Just like Obama they still stand someone up there to promise the world to people. To have people believing they wont have to pay on their mortgage anymore. Really crazy shit. They won't want to elect the person who tells them the truth, and that is if we don't cut back on the "free shit" aint no one going to have anything in the near future. They'll be standing in a bread line with a barrel full of cash to buy a piece of bread.
Oh, and 1913 was also the year the Fed was born.....:(
parishioner
03-27-10, 16:31
AT&T is estimating a $1B expense to pay for the new healthcare rules:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-26/at-t-to-take-1-billion-charge-on-health-care-reform-update1-.html
I HOPE you have CHANGE left
Guess whose employees and retirees are probably going to get their health benefits dumped now, forcing them to go on medicare?
And look here...http://www.freep.com/article/20100327/BUSINESS04/3270335/1318/U.S.-to-increase-housing-loans
The government wants to own your home too.
Oh, and just because something is abundant and expected due to economic success, such as health care, it in no way means you are now entitled to it, despite what democrats try to convince the uneducated.
Expectations≠Rights
Cagemonkey
03-27-10, 17:14
if 2010/2012 doesnt work, national bankruptcy is the only thing that can repeal some of this crap The US won't go bankrupt. We'll just have to surrender our sovereignty either to the control of China or so kind of EU socialist world government for a bale out, which is just what the progressive commies want.
No one has brought this up yet! Student Loans? How is this in the HC bill? Been trying to find some info but not much is out there yet.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/03/26/dana-perino-student-loans-health-care-sen-kent-conrad-democrats-students/?test=latestnews
ForTehNguyen
03-31-10, 13:57
No one has brought this up yet! Student Loans? How is this in the HC bill? Been trying to find some info but not much is out there yet.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/03/26/dana-perino-student-loans-health-care-sen-kent-conrad-democrats-students/?test=latestnews
yea college loan industry was nationalized as it claimed to reduce the deficit by $67B over 10 years so it would make the healthcare bill less. However the rules are totally retarded and present an epic moral hazard:
5 Ways This Bill WILL Benefit Students Seeking Higher Education:
There's a reason President Obama will sign the last of the healthcare reform bills at Northern Virginia Community College at 11:05 a.m. today: The bill also includes the most sweeping changes in the nation's student financial aid program in four decades. The new program will make the government the main provider of student loans.
The key change is a makeover of the Federal student loan program that cuts out private banks as middlemen. The Obama administration says the change will produce savings that can be plowed into more aid for needy students. Here are some of the key ways college students will benefit from the changes.
Easier approvals and lower interest rates on student loans. With the government returning to the role it once played as direct lender, lenders' profits are no longer part of the student loan equation and overhead costs should drop. Both of these changes should result in more applicants qualifying for loans -- and lower interest rates on those loans.
More affordable repayments. Of course, lower interest rates and no fees mean lower monthly payments to begin with, but the new bill also contains provisions that will help students meet their repayment obligations, including one that caps repayments of loans issued after July 1, 2014, at 10 percent of a graduate's discretionary income and forgives loans completely after 20 years -- 10 years for graduates who enter public or military service -- if borrowers make all their payments on time.
More money for direct grants to students. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that ending subsidies to private lenders will save $68 billion over 11 years. $40 billion of that will be used to greatly expand Pell Grants for low-income students attending colleges and technical schools. From 2013 to 2017, the maximum grant will increase by the inflation rate, upping the amount from $5500 to $5975 over the four years, according to CBO estimates.
More money for colleges that train the nation's workforce. The student-aid reform bill also includes $2 billion in funding over four years for the nation's community colleges, which have become linchpins in America's system of worker training and retraining through specialized programs tailored to the needs of business and industry.
Help for schools that serve the undeserved. Historically black colleges and universities provide tickets to upward mobility for a disproportionate share of America's most disadvantaged. The bill includes $2.55 billion for these and other minority-serving institutions, which face even greater pressures on their more modest endowments than mainstream institutions of higher education.
Wow kidding right? My loan will be forgiven in 10 or 20 years depending on the career path I take AND I only have to pay back up to 10% of my salary in loan payments per year? Damn whats stopping me from taking out a quarter of a million for tuition (mind you there's no check if youre actually spending this on school related things) and graduating with a 40k job and I only have to pay back $4k a year? This would greatly encourage someone to go into debt and just suckle along until the forgiveness date. I know a lot of people who used their tuition loans to buy other stuff like houses, cars, and toys. Sallie Mae will join Fannie and Freddie in the insolvent box soon.
Lets not forget tuition keeps rising each year BECAUSE of govt giving a loan to every freaking high risk kid with a pulse. Sounds like the housing market all over again. Never mind the jobs that were killed in the private lending institutions because the govt took it's industry over.
Just like the healthcare bill the college loan bill did nothing to lower costs, only guaranteeing the costs will continue to rocket up.
Ammo Sphere
03-31-10, 16:32
What money are we going to use to pay for this new health care entitlement?
What money are we going to use to pay for this new health care entitlement?
Exactly!!!!!:mad:
meet your new Primary Care Physician:
http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae314/OpenSights/obamacare1.jpg
Doctor tells Obama supporters: Go elsewhere for health care (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-mount-dora-doctor-tells-patients-go-aw20100401,0,6040296,full.story)
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2010-04/53055642.JPG
My kind of Doc. If I had a pisser problem I'd be giving him my money... no burning sensation to speak of :D
dmancornell
04-02-10, 15:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2iiirr5KI8
Straight out of the horse's mouth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2iiirr5KI8
Straight out of the horse's mouth.
Not to be a horse's ass but name one (outside of Ron Paul) that does...
dmancornell
04-02-10, 16:12
Can't think of one. It is truly nauseating to hear parasite politicians justifying their treason with the "interstate commerce" lie.
I think we have a lot of Senators and Representatives in Congress that don't care about the US Constitution :(
I just saw that on Fox news and it's upsetting :mad:
It appears that our representatives do not believe that they require any legal authority to make any laws, as long as they think it is good for the people.
That attitude is compounded by the fact that they really don't critically think past their arrogant noses. This guy couldn't man the cash register at McDonald's.
My question is simple:
Who's fault is it? These incompetent morons keep getting reelected. Who keeps voting for them? NOT ME I check the voting record of every elected official that I have a say with. If he hasn't voted to my satisfaction then he/she loses my support.
How bout you?
My favorite is Michigan's governor who (paraphrasing, but not that much) said that she is the state of Michigan, not the people. I had to turn the TV off before I popped a vein.
And people wonder how some people come up with the idea to take all the politicians out...... I wont post my position on it on a public site, but I can definitely see how people can get worked up enough to have a spurt of anger like that. Hell, its like being sheep and just watching the wolves walk up in plain sight and tell you their not wolves and their here to help:eek:
LockenLoad
04-02-10, 22:10
man really stupid people get elected, that guy is brain dead and never even made 1 valid point
GermanSynergy
04-02-10, 22:19
He's just saying what the rest of them are thinking... Classic Freudian slip....
diving dave
04-03-10, 06:21
These arrogant fools need to be shown the unemployment line. November wont come fast enough.
heartbreakridge01
04-03-10, 07:44
any one read the comments from this page.
http://qconline.com/archives/qco/display_mobile.php?id=486688
Jaika K.: "I'm truly sorry Congressman Hare had to endure heckling from the Party-of-NO. They pushed him and twisted his words until they got a statement they could run with. He doesn't spend time worrying about the Constitution because he knows it protects the rights of Congress, one of which is to pass and uphold laws for the benefit of Americans. Democrats will fight hard to re-elect their courageous leaders! We are full of Hope not Hate."
Ive always thought it was a limitation as to what the goverment could and could not do, and protected the PEOPLES rights not the goverments...
Belmont31R
04-03-10, 10:18
any one read the comments from this page.
http://qconline.com/archives/qco/display_mobile.php?id=486688
Ive always thought it was a limitation as to what the goverment could and could not do, and protected the PEOPLES rights not the goverments...
Government doesn't have rights. They have powers as laid out in the Constitution and the constitutions of each state. Congress' powers are section 1-8, and they have no legal authority to do anything beyond what that section says they can. What they have done over the years is to twist the meanings of the words to mean what they want them to, and not what the document actually says.
Take the phrase "promote the general welfare". Progressives took the term welfare, and turned it into their grand social programs. What the phrase actually means is to promote science, innovation, the arts, industry, commerce, etc. Its got nothing to do with social welfare spending like SS, Medicare, Obamacare, etc.
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Regulate, in the old english meaning as the Constitution was written in, means to bring to alignment, to make something orderly, and to make uniform. Think of it as in regulating a side by side shotgun. You are bringing the two barrels into alignment so they both shoot to the same POI. In the sense of regulating commerce it means to have rules that promote commerce, and so one state does not have a legally unfair advantage over the other. For instance you cannot tax goods in one state more than another to give one state an unfair trade advantage over the other. One state cannot put a tax goods coming in from another state as a duty. Basically its to make trade fair throughout the states. What Congress, and SCOTUS have done over time it twist this common meaning to give them the power to regulate everything however they want, force you to buy certain products, cut off trade amongst the states, regulate items not engaged in interstate commerce, and pass any law they like under the guise of it impacting commerce in even the slightest.
In the end as much as these people think of the Constitution as toilet paper, and they dont care about it.....it was fellow Americans who put them into office. We have a lot of Americans who think of the Constitution as a novelty, and doesnt really mean anything. This is much to do with the lack of education on the topic in public schools, and people's increasing dependence on government.
LMarshall73
04-03-10, 10:38
I came across THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DutjCZdW6s&feature=player_embedded) video earlier. I started reading some of the documents that were referenced, and it appears that the video is spot on. The constitution (as it was written and ratified) has been suspended for quite some time apparently.
Belmont31R
04-03-10, 11:37
I came across THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DutjCZdW6s&feature=player_embedded) video earlier. I started reading some of the documents that were referenced, and it appears that the video is spot on. The constitution (as it was written and ratified) has been suspended for quite some time apparently.
14th Amendment was ratified by the states not Congress. Two ways to ratify an Amendment. Either through Congress or the states with 3/4ths vote. Of course Congressional records are going to show it wasn't passed through Congress.
Kind of odd but states have voted to ratify it as late as 2003. Other states have ratified it that were not even states in the 1860's such as California.
But I do agree with his general premise that the Constitution has been willfully violated enormously by the government. A good portion of what the Federal government does it has no authority to do in Section 1-8. 10th Amendment says powers not delegated to the feds are state's or the people's rights. What was required previously for the government to regulate something they had no authority to do was to pass an amendment. Prohibition is one. Now they just pass a law through Congress even with no Constitutional authority, and I guess just have the attitude they will let the courts settle it. But they also appoint the justices of the courts so its a bit of a scary proposition in the first place to have people appointing justices who violate the Constitution on a daily basis. Just think about it. It took a constitutional amendment to ban alcohol but today they don't think they need one to ban pot, ban guns, or force people to buy a product and services like health insurance.
Belmont31R
04-03-10, 11:47
What money are we going to use to pay for this new health care entitlement?
They are taking money out of Medicare, and we have 600 billion in new taxes. State governments are also going to have to pay more for welfare programs so states either cut money out of their budgets and/or increase taxes.
Funny Obama says this is going to save us from bankruptcy....instead of fixing the fiscal problems by reducing how much they are spending they just increase taxes so they can keep spending. Funny he doesn't mention the fact under his leadership we are spending almost 2 trillion a year in deficit spending. I guess that doesn't count towards adding to our fiscal problems....:rolleyes: He'll just blame it on Iraq and Afghanistan, the debt Bush left us, and never take any responsibility for their own spending.
Can't think of one. It is truly nauseating to hear parasite politicians justifying their treason with the "interstate commerce" lie.
There are way to many people in Congress that do not care about the constitution.
This guy trying to explain his way out of it just dug him a deeper hole as far as I'm concerned.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/03/congressman-defends-constitution-comments-health-care/
Typical of today's politicians... His video response is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Obain3h-qo&feature=player_embedded
VooDoo6Actual
04-03-10, 17:53
not surprised in the least.
Sad in reality.
GermanSynergy
04-03-10, 17:57
I was thinking about how these folks don't even pretend to care about the Constitution anymore. Even under Clinton, they at least pretended to give a hoot. Now it's just naked Marxism.
The_War_Wagon
04-03-10, 18:06
You can bet I won't give a damn about him having to stand in an unemployment line come January, either... :mad:
Of course, every time a politician ****s up and says what hes thinking on video or audio its always been taken out of context:rolleyes: T&F em all
browningboy84
04-03-10, 19:34
Sad thing is, they will be hire by either a lobbying firm or a big corporation. Their ticket is punched either way. Sad, but it is true.
Belmont31R
04-03-10, 21:03
You can bet I won't give a damn about him having to stand in an unemployment line come January, either... :mad:
I have little faith the same people who elected these types into office have suddenly come to some realization, and will vote for people who have the Constitution in mind when they vote. Republicans trample over it. Dems do. Just in different shades. How many provisions of McCain-Feingold have been struck down? How many of the Patriot Act? McCain would have been a better choice? He just authored a bill that would allow the government to detain US citizens on US soil without charges indefinitely. Both tyrants. One just does it in the name of safety, and the other does in the name of (social) security.
Ask yourself this. The last republican we had said he would sign another AWB, and was pushing for illegal alien amnesty. The one who was running for president was also for amnesty, and had a health care plan strikingly similar to Obama's with "tax credits" being used to fund peoples health care. There are differences but they are smaller than most care to admit to. Did republicans ever do anything to cut back on social spending? Vote to end the AWB? No? Actually they expanded the social spending.
I know it wont do anything but the only way to regain freedom in this country is to vote 3rd party constitutionalists into office. Otherwise we just get the other side of tyranny.
The quick to judgment fan club is quick to react as well.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPSXB0pVWgnTggpu-KnVqhophahwD9ELT6600
http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2010/03/richmond_pd_bul.php
Glad to see that at least some folks are adding some balance to a very overheated discussion.
ETA:
I usually avoid this thread. I was surprised when I notice that a couple of my posts from other "moved " threads were up here. Now I know where at least some of " moved " material goes. Some just disaappears -- some gets dumped up here.
It's all good.
Belmont31R
04-05-10, 19:51
Letter from my Congressman.....John Carter (R) TX-31
Thank you for contacting me express your opposition to the health care reform plan pushed by President Obama and his congressional allies. Your constant support and comments helped guide me in my decision to oppose this plan.
As you already know, the Democrats passed the government takeover of health care and President Obama signed it into law on March 23, 2010. It passed without my support or the support of any Republicans. While bipartisan legislation could have benefitted all Americans and enacted true reform, the only thing bipartisan about this bill was the 34 Democrats who united with Republicans in opposition. This victory was one of politics--not a victory for the best interests of the American people. You spoke loudly and they did not listen.
I recognize that this health care legislation does make some positive changes in health care reform. For instance, it prevents insurance companies from denying people coverage because of preexisting conditions, prevents people from getting dropped from their plans if they fall ill, and allows children to stay on their parents' insurance plans until they turn 26.
This legislation will force nearly 9 million Americans to lose the coverage they currently have. This is because they will be forced to purchase "acceptable" health care coverage or face a tax of 2.5% of modified adjusted gross income. The definition provided in the bill for "acceptable" coverage will require people to purchase plans that include coverage they cannot afford, or don't want or need. That said, your insurance premiums will increase by 10-13%. This is because the bill creates new taxes on insurance policies, health care products, and new regulations that drive up costs for patients of any and all ages.
With a looming trillion-dollar deficit with no solution in sight, we can't afford this bill. The total cost of the bill, estimated by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), is more than $1.33 trillion, when including the cost to states for mandated Medicaid expansion ($20 billion) and authorized discretionary spending for grants, public programs, changes and funding for a variety of agencies that would be responsible for implementing the bill. The "true cost" of the bill once fully implemented (FY2014-2023) is over $2.6 trillion.
One of the major expenses is the sheer administrative cost of all that this bill plans to do. The bill creates 159 new government agencies to regulate insurance and medical care for Americans. To do much of the administering, the bill has expanded the Internal Revenue Services' powers. The IRS will have to hire to 16,500 additional auditors, agents, and other employees just to enforce all the new taxes and penalties. The bill would empower the IRS to: (1) verify that Americans have "acceptable" health care coverage; (2) fine Americans up to $2,085 or 2 percent of income (whichever is greater) for the failure to purchase "minimum essential coverage"; (3) confiscate tax refunds; and (4) increase audits.
Adding to the estimated cost of this bill is the fact that it fails to adequately address tort reform and citizen verification. Due to vague language in the bill, individuals applying for low-income affordability subsidies, enrolling in Medicaid/CHIP, or enrolling in high risk pools are not required to verify their citizenship, therefore opening the door for coverage of illegal immigrants. Instead of real tort reform that was addressed prolifically in Republican ideas, the Democrats chose to side with trial lawyers rather than eliminate the costs associated with defense medicine. Texas has been a model for medical malpractice law, capping damages awards and lessening the malpractice insurance for doctors that often drives up the cost of health care.
Overall, the bill increases taxes by $569.2 billion over ten years, including taxes that will harm small businesses and middle-class families.
President Obama, in his campaign, promised that he would not tax the middle class. However, this bill contains direct and indirect taxes that would raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 for singles and $250,000 for couples. These include: (1) a "Cadillac tax" on high-cost plans, (2) an individual mandate tax on Americans who do not purchase government-approved health insurance, (3) an increase in the 7.5% AGI floor for medical expense deductions to 10%, (4) limits on Flexible Spending Accounts in cafeteria plans, (5) increased penalties for nonqualified HSA distributions, (6) other restrictions on Health Savings Accounts, Health Reimbursement Accounts, and Flexible Spending Accounts, (7) a tax on tanning services, (8) an employer mandate tax, (9) a sales tax on medical devices, (10) a tax on health insurance premiums, (11) a tax on prescription drugs, and (12) a tax on insured and self-insured health plans.
At a time when small businesses are struggling to keep their doors open, we should be cutting taxes to encourage their growth to rejuvenate our economy. However, this health care bill taxes small businesses in a way that could very well put them out of business. The employer mandate imposes a new tax on business, which will destroy current and new jobs during a time when millions of Americans are already unemployed. Employers who do not offer coverage would face a $2,000 fine per employee - if at least one full-time employee is enrolled in an exchange plan and receives a premium subsidy. Even if an employer offers coverage, it will have to pay up to $3,000 per employee if the coverage is deemed "unaffordable" by the federal government.
This bill is already having a detrimental effect on our economy. Some of our biggest businesses and providers of hundreds of thousands of American jobs already feel the burden of the tax hikes imposed by this bill. It will cost Caterpillar, world's largest producer of bulldozers, $100 million, farm equipment maker Deere & Co. will face $150 million in increased costs, and AT&T will face $1 billion in first quarter costs, triggered by a change in the tax treatment of Medicare subsidies. Due to this astronomical cost, AT&T must now consider changes to the benefits it offers its current and retired employees.
One of the worst parts of this legislation is how it affects Medicare. In short, the bill includes $528.5 billion in cuts to Medicare, cutting benefits and raising premiums on seniors. These cuts are not used to reduce the deficit, or improve the solvency of the Medicare program but instead to create new entitlement programs. CBO released an analysis detailing just how harmful these cuts would be to those on Medicare Advantage (MA). Today, nearly 11 million seniors rely on MA plans for their health benefits. This program is targeted for $135.6 billion in cuts. CBO then confirms that because of these cuts, 4.8 million fewer seniors will be enrolled in these plans in 2019. It would further close the Medicare Part D "donut hole" by increasing the drug discount program by $5 billion (to $42.6 billion), and increase the Medicare cuts from the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) by $2.2 billion (to $15.5 billion).
The Medicare payroll tax will increase by 0.9% on individuals making $200,000 and families making $250,000 (not indexed to inflation), which in turn creates a new marriage penalty and over time will hit more of the middle class. Furthermore, the bill adds an additional 3.8% tax on net investment income for these same individuals, estates, and trusts (net gain from selling property).
The increase in federal spending on Medicaid /Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) would be by $48 billion, making it $434 billion. Additionally, we all know that one of the factors driving up health care costs is the estimated $80 billion in taxpayer dollars lost every year due to Medicare and Medicaid fraud. Regardless, the bill drastically expands the currently unsustainable Medicaid program from 100% of the federal poverty level to 133%. For Texas, that means a $24 billion state liability over the next ten years.
As you well know, this bill does not prohibit the federal funding of abortions. In order to gain votes, the President issued an Executive Order to prohibit funding for abortions. However, an Executive Order in no way changes the law, and for that matter can be rescinded just as easily was it was written. Therefore, the only way to truly prevent taxpayer funding of abortions is to enact a law that prevents taxpayer funding of abortions. This legislation does not meet that standard. Please know that as a committed member of the Pro-Life Caucus, I will continue to defend the sanctity of human life at all stages and will fight for the unborn on this issue.
You may be wondering, "What now?" This was most likely the most unpopular and unconstitutional bill ever approved by Congress through illegal procedures and deception, but I want you to know that the fight to kill this bill is not over.
Repeal is an option, but it's important to qualify this. With a new House in January we can strip the federal government of the ability to implement this bill. However, President Obama will still be in office and have the power of veto. To that end, only with a supermajority can we override a veto, or by winning the Presidency in 2012 can we repeal it outright.
However, I have joined with my Republican colleagues to overturn this legislation and approach solutions for real reform. You may be interested to know that I have begun a multi-tiered approach to stopping this bill. Not only will I work to repeal and replace it, but I have joined 15 other states' attorney generals in an effort to challenge the constitutionality of this law.
We all agree that the status quo in health care is unsustainable. It's too expensive; it's bankrupting families with major illnesses and bankrupting the government. Every American should have access to affordable health insurance, and the ability to acquire preventive health care and treatment - regardless of employment, health status, or income level. However, the solution to the health care problem is not more government control.
I will work tirelessly to stop the threat to freedom and the degradation of our economic competitiveness that this bill will cause, and I will work to stop this bill from entering your life. I will continue to work tirelessly for the best interests of America and Central Texas. I have attached a timeline of the implementation dates of the provision in this bill. Thank you once again for your support and action, and for taking the time to keep me updated with your views. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of any further assistance.
Sincerely,
John Carter
Member of Congress
For more information on what I am doing in Congress, please visit my website at http://www.house.gov/carter. If you would like a weekly update, you may also sign up to receive my newsletter while you're there.
TIMELINE OF IMPLEMENTATION OF H.R. 3590 PROVISIONS
Wall Street Journal, March 22, 2010
2010
Coverage
Subsidies
* begin for small businesses to provide coverage to employees.
* Insurance companies barred from denying coverage to children with pre-existing illness.
* Children permitted to stay on their parents' insurance policies until their 26th birthday.
2011
Coverage
* Set up long-term care program under which people pay premiums into system for at least five years and become eligible for support payments if they need assistance in daily living.
Taxes and fees
* Drug makers face annual fee of $2.5 billion (rises in subsequent years).
2013
Taxes and fees
* New Medicare taxes on individuals earning more than $200,000 a year and couples filing jointly earning more than $250,000 a year.
* Tax on wages rises to 2.35% from 1.45%.
* New 3.8% tax on unearned income such as dividends and interest.
* Excise tax of 2.9% imposed on sale of medical devices.
Cost control
* Medicare pilot program begins to test bundled payments for care, in a bid to pay for quality rather than quantity of services.
2013
Coverage
* Create exchanges where people without employer coverage, as well as small businesses, can shop for health coverage. Insurance companies barred from denying coverage to anyone with pre-existing illness.
* Requirement begins for most people to have health insurance. Subsidies begin for lower and middle-income people. People at 133% of federal poverty level pay maximum of 3% of income for coverage. People at 400% of poverty level pay up to 9.5% of income. (Poverty level currently is about $22,000 for a family of four.)
* Medicaid, the federal-state program for the poor, expands to all Americans with income up to 133% of federal poverty level.
* Subsidies for small businesses to provide coverage increase. Businesses with 10 or fewer employees and average annual wages of less than $25,000 receive tax credit of up to 50% of employer's contribution. Tax credits phase out for larger businesses.
Taxes and fees
* Employers with more than 50 employees that don't provide affordable coverage must pay a fine if employees receive tax credits to buy insurance. Fine is up to $3,000 per employee, excluding first 30 employees.
* Insurance industry must pay annual fee of $8 billion (rises in subsequent years).
Cost control
* Independent Medicare board must begin to submit recommendations to curb Medicare spending, if costs are rising faster than inflation.
2016
Taxes and fees
* Penalty for those who don't carry coverage rises to 2.5% of taxable income or $695, whichever is greater.
2017
Coverage
* Businesses with more than 100 employees can buy coverage on insurance exchanges, if state permits it.
2018
Taxes and fees
* Excise tax of 40% imposed on health plans valued at more than $10,200 for individual coverage and $27,500 for family coverage.
We need more like him! :cool:
Bobert0989
04-08-10, 13:42
I discovered the following information this morning through a friend... I found it very interesting and enlightening...
What do you think?
Dr. Krauthammer is on Fox News. He is an M.D. and a lawyer and is paralyzed from the neck down. A friend went to hear Charles Krauthammer. He listened with 25 others in a closed room. What he says here, is NOT 2nd-hand but 1st. The ramifications are staggering for us, our children and their children.
Last Monday was a profound evening; Dr. Charles Krauthammer spoke to the Center for the American Experiment. He is a brilliant intellectual, seasoned & articulate. He is forthright and careful in his analysis, and never resorts to emotions or personal insults. He is NOT a fear monger nor an extremist in his comments and views. He is a fiscal conservative, and has received a Pulitzer Prize for writing. He is a frequent contributor to Fox News and writes weekly for the Washington Post.
The entire room was held spellbound during his talk. I have summarized his comments, as we are living in uncharted waters economically and internationally.
Even 2 Dems at my table agreed with everything he said! If you feel like forwarding this to those who are open minded and have not drunk the Kool-Aid, feel free.
Summary of his comments:
1. Mr. Obama is a very intellectual, charming individual. He is not to be underestimated. He is a cool customer who doesn't show his emotions. It's very hard to know what's behind the mask. The taking down of the Clinton dynasty was an amazing accomplishment. The Clintons still do not understand what hit them. Obama was in the perfect place at the perfect time.
2. Obama has political skills comparable to Reagan and Clinton. He has a way of making you think he's on your side, agreeing with your position, while doing the opposite. Pay no attention to what he SAYS; rather, watch what he DOES!
3. Obama has a ruthless quest for power. He did not come to Washington to make something out of himself, but rather to change everything, including dismantling capitalism. He can't be straightforward on his ambitions, as the public would not go along. He has a heavy hand, and wants to level the playing field with income redistribution and punishment to the achievers of society. He would like to model the USA to Great Britain or Canada.
4. His three main goals are to control ENERGY, PUBLIC EDUCATION, and NATIONAL HEALTHCARE by the Federal government. He doesn't care about the auto or financial services industries, but got them as an early bonus. The cap and trade will add costs to everything and stifle growth. Paying for FREE college education is his goal.. Most scary is his healthcare program, because if you make it FREE and add 46,000,000 people to a Medicare-type single-payer system, the costs will go through the roof. The only way to control costs is with massive RATIONING of services, like in Canada . God forbid!
5. He has surrounded himself with mostly far-left academic types. No one around him has ever even run a candy store. But they are going to try and run the auto, financial, banking and other industries. This obviously can't work in the long run. Obama is not a socialist; rather he's a far-left secular progressive bent on nothing short of revolution. He ran as a moderate, but will govern from the hard left. Again, watch what he does, not what he says.
6. Obama doesn't really see himself as President of the United States , but more as a ruler over the world. He sees himself above it all, trying to orchestrate & coordinate various countries and their agendas. He sees moral equivalency in all cultures. His apology tour in Germany and England was a prime example of how he sees America , as an imperialist nation that has been arrogant, rather than a great noble nation that has at times made errors. This is the first President ever who has chastised our allies and appeased our enemies!
7. He is now handing out goodies. He hopes that the bill (and pain) will not come due until after he is reelected in 2012. He would like to blame all problems on Bush from the past, and hopefully his successor in the future. He has a huge ego, and Dr. Krauthammer believes he is a narcissist.
8. Republicans are in the wilderness for a while, but will emerge strong. Republicans are pining for another Reagan, but there will never be another like him. Krauthammer believes Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty & Bobby Jindahl (except for his terrible speech in February) are the future of the party. Newt Gingrich is brilliant, but has baggage. Sarah Palin is sincere and intelligent, but needs to really be seriously boning up on facts and info if she is to be a serious candidate in the future.. We need to return to the party of lower taxes, smaller government, personal responsibility, strong national defense, and state's rights..
9. The current level of spending is irresponsible and outrageous. We are spending trillions that we don't have. This could lead to hyperinflation, depression or worse. No country has ever spent themselves into prosperity. The media is giving Obama, Reid and Pelosi a pass because they love their agenda. But eventually the bill will come due and people will realize the huge bailouts didn't work, nor will the stimulus package. These were trillion-dollar payoffs to Obama's allies, unions and the Congress to placate the left, so he can get support for #4 above.
10. The election was over in mid-September when Lehman brothers failed, fear and panic swept in, we had an unpopular President, and the war was grinding on indefinitely without a clear outcome. The people are in pain, and the mantra of change caused people to act emotionally. Any Dem would have won this election; it was surprising it was as close as it was..
11. In 2012, if the unemployment rate is over 10%, Republicans will be swept back into power. If it's under 8%, the Dems continue to roll. If it's between 8-10%, it will be a dogfight. It will all be about the economy. I hope this gets you really thinking about what's
happening in Washington and Congress. There is a left-wing revolution going on, according to Krauthammer, and he encourages us to keep the faith and join the loyal resistance.. The work will be hard, but we're right on most issues and can reclaim our country, before it's far too late.
Do yourself a long term favor, spread this to all who will listen to an intelligent assessment of the big picture. All our futures and children's futures depend on our good understanding of what is really going on in DC, and our action pursuant to that understanding!! It really IS up to each of us to take individual action!! Start with educating your friends and neighbors!!! But if you do not care to participate in educating the populace...just disregard this message, it's ok with me
Agreed with everything Dr. K said.
BTW, I didn't know he is paralyzed from the neck down, although I thought he looked weird propping up in that chair on FOX.
Gutshot John
04-08-10, 13:55
I've met the man and he is by far my favorite pundit.
He doesn't go for any of that red meat in your face trash that so many others are prone to but he will eviscerate you intellectually.
We need more like him.
Bobert0989
04-08-10, 14:07
I've never personally heard him speak, but hear discussions of his idealogies and theories, and haven't really found anything to be untruthful in his works. I have been reading some of his earlier stuff this afternoon, and I'm impressed.
Seems like a real straight shooter.
~Bobby
woodandsteel
04-08-10, 14:11
I love watching D. Krauthammer on Special Report and also when he appears as a guest on some of the other Fox Shows.
The local paper just started carrying his column on Sundays. :cool:
woodandsteel
04-08-10, 14:15
I've never personally heard him speak, but hear discussions of his idealogies and theories, and haven't really found anything to be untruthful in his works. I have been reading some of his earlier stuff this afternoon, and I'm impressed.
Seems like a real straight shooter.
~Bobby
What I like best about him, is that he used to be part of the Carter Administration and also worked on Mondale's Campaign. But now, he is basically the standard bearer of conservatism.
There is no better speaker, in my opinion.
He doesn't go for any of that red meat in your face trash that so many others are prone to but he will eviscerate you intellectually.
Red meat has its place. Without it, we'd still be speaking with a Brit accent.
Gutshot John
04-08-10, 14:29
Red meat has its place. Without it, we'd still be speaking with a Brit accent.
One has nothing to do with the other.
The French and Russian Revolutions had plenty of red meat as well...look where it got them.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/krauthammer.asp
I couldn't copy and paste so I posted the link above. It explained Dr. K.'s remarks.
Just FYI...
I suspect the paraphrasing has left much to be desired by way of content omission. Probably not on purpose, but Krauthammer wouldn't leave so many glaring holes in his analysis.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/krauthammer.asp
I couldn't copy and paste so I posted the link above. It explained Dr. K.'s remarks.
...and there we have it.
One has nothing to do with the other.
The French and Russian Revolutions had plenty of red meat as well...look where it got them.
...and look where it got us. That is my point.
parishioner
04-08-10, 14:43
the party of lower taxes, smaller government, personal responsibility, strong national defense, and state's rights..
This is all I want. Why is this so hard to attain?
I would really love for a third party to take control and really shake things up but the chances of that are slim to none which will most likely mean the republicans will be back in at some point. The thing that worries me is the fact that republicans say they stand for the above but have they really shown that? If you look through all the bills passed in the last 100 years it shows the government slowly chipping away at our freedom, just a little bit at a time. What bills have the republicans passed to reverse this trend? Its like when they get in office they can only delay the inevitable socialist push by the democrats. We are slowly being pushed into the corner. (See sig line.)
Gutshot John
04-08-10, 14:44
...and look where it got us. That is my point.
You've missed the point entirely.
dookie1481
04-08-10, 14:49
This is all I want. Why is this so hard to attain?
Because there is a whole complex of gov't and private parties that would suffer because of it. And they won't let that happen.
Jay
You've missed the point entirely.
Really? And you?
Lets go offline if you wish...
Gutshot John
04-08-10, 14:54
Really? And you?
Lets go offline if you wish...
Believe what you will I've no interest in pursuing it further.
I think that Dr. K is one of the best thinkers on the right and what is paraphrased in the OP's post seems to really hit the mark.
I will nitpick with one thing though: being a "far left progressive" is a de facto synonym with being a socialist, or as they are called in Europe, a Democratic Socialist.
Gutshot John
04-08-10, 15:19
If people would like the unredacted Krauthammer archive here it is.
Please note his biting use of irony and intellect. It's far more satisfying than foaming at the mouth.
The Krauthammer "Sanction" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/03/24/LI2005032401690.html)
Right off the top, #1 is incorrect. He shows his emotions constantly with his bitch-fit temper tantrums he throws in interviews and press conferences
I think Krauthammer said that early on in Obama's administration. It was true then, but it definitely is not true now. The more resistance he gets the more petulant he's getting. I think by the end of his term that calm, cool image will be pretty much gone.
Gutshot John
04-08-10, 15:31
I will nitpick with one thing though: being a "far left progressive" is a de facto synonym with being a socialist, or as they are called in Europe, a Democratic Socialist.
If you follow the snopes link you'll find that Krauthammer denies ever saying that.
He also says the entire email/summary is "neither accurate nor authoritative."
Nathan_Bell
04-08-10, 15:33
I think Krauthammer said that early on in Obama's administration. It was true then, but it definitely is not true now. The more resistance he gets the more petulant he's getting. I think by the end of his term that calm, cool image will be pretty much gone.
If the midterms go the way I hope and pray, it will be gone Jan. '11.
Agreed with everything Dr. K said.
BTW, I didn't know he is paralyzed from the neck down, although I thought he looked weird propping up in that chair on FOX.
Same, I had no idea he was paralyzed. I always did think he looked a bit strange though.
Belmont31R
04-08-10, 16:14
I think that Dr. K is one of the best thinkers on the right and what is paraphrased in the OP's post seems to really hit the mark.
I will nitpick with one thing though: being a "far left progressive" is a de facto synonym with being a socialist, or as they are called in Europe, a Democratic Socialist.
American progressives have far more to do with communism than socialist.
Basically socialism is government controlled economy with worker owned operations. There is still disparity in pay and wealth with a semblance of a free market.
Communism is completely government owned economy, and everyone has the same basic standard of living.
I believe American progressives view unions as useful idiots, and would prefer government control in the long run. Part of this health care bill means all student loans will be administered by the government. Eventually health care will be controlled by the government, and unions like SEIU will be folded into the aparatus to become government workers.
Its just that the left knows they cannot do it in one fell swoop, and are doing it incrementally although the speed has gone way up since Obama took office. We've had numerous plants going back to the 20's and 30's to get us to this point. An all out revolution started by the left would never work. The people would not stand for it much less any president of the past. This is why groups like Weather Underground went "dark" because they realized bombing government buildings would never work. They turned to education to subvert the system, and start spitting out left leaning young people.
The reason they are often called socialists is because on the map socialism is on the road from capitalism to communism. They have been proposing socialist ideology for a long time. We've had tons of it in this country for decades. Now we are seeing the communist ideology emerge with student loans, and health care which is setting up the foundation for a communist health care system.
We started going socialist when FDR was president. Social security guarenteed a retirement. Then we got medicare and medicaid. SCHIP. Control of education started going from local levels and up to the Feds now. They weaseled into the home industry with Community Reinvestment Act. All these things are by designed to corrupt the capitalist system, and make socialist "ways" seem appealing by comparison. They promise to stop the abuses of the free market. They promise no one is going to get left behind. They promise everyone an equal opportunity in life. When these plans cause more problems they do the same thing, and its just a cycle until the government has total control over industry, and people wake up to a communist nation right before their very eyes.
As far as Obama specifically goes....he is very into himself, and see's himself on a god like level. A person who is going to right the wrongs in the world by giving everyone equality. Their version of equality is every has the same thing. Its communism. This extends to the world in his eyes. He doesn't see any nation being better than any other, and the only reason one nation is poor, and one nation is rich is because the poor nation was abused by the rich. When he went to Copenhagen look at what they were proposing. Taxing wealthy nations, and giving money to the poor nations to improve their industry. This just isn't inside the US. Its world wide for them. I've gotten into arguments with liberals who view the US as oppressing poor countries because we buy cheap goods from them, and that we should be paying them money to make our stuff so they have a standard of living comparable to the US. The reason Obama doesn't like nukes is because he sees it as our tool to bully smaller nations. He doesn't see them as a means to peace. He thinks he can secure peace by giving a speech or two, and apologizing to the world for us. You watch. Iran is going to get a nuke under his watch, and 100% guaranteed if he gets a 2nd term. He isn't going to do anything, and he is going to downplay the event as not being serious.
Of course his policies and ideology are going to be abject failures. Far left ideology has never worked as well as American capitalism. But I don't think he cares. I don't think he cares about unemployment levels or our debt. He'd rather have a poorly performing economy with his social/economic justice as opposed to a capitalist system that makes a wealthy nation but has 3 classes. He is going to keep blaring the blame Bush mantra years from now for his own failures. He'll ignore and downplay ones he can't get away with. He'll propose more far left ideology as being whats really needed to fix the problems. That's the scam the left has been playing on us for decades. They have the fix, which is a far left ideology, and when it causes problems or ends up as a failure the fix is always more far left crap. Social security was supposed to secure a retirement for people. Now the far left is proposing a "super social security" with more taxes because social security is turning out to be a failure. Medicare/medicaid/SCHIP was supposed to provide health care for the poor, the old, and our kids. That hasn't turned out well, and is way more expensive than ever imagined. Its also caused private insurance to be priced out of middle class hands because these programs pay doctors so poorly, and force them to treat people who don't pay insurance is now a huge hidden subsidy to these programs. Without private insurance these programs would have failed a long time ago or our hospitals would be no better than something from the 3rd world. Community Reinvestment Act, and other laws that have been passed to strengthen the CRA over the years have had a big impact on the current economy. Supply loans to people who cannot afford them, and then you get mass foreclosures. Mass foreclosures turned housing investments to shit, and there is so much money tied up in housing it was always a ticking time bomb. In each of these cases who gets the blame? Have you ever seen a liberal blame a government social program for causing a problem? No. They always say because they are too weak. They blame capitalism. They hate big businesses. They want the government to control it all because they think that's the only way to have equality and fairness in the world.
Same, I had no idea he was paralyzed. I always did think he looked a bit strange though.
He's paralyzed from a diving accident. IDK if he's paralyzed from the neck or the waist down however. I've seen him slightly move his arms and head on Special Report though so maybe its the waist down. Either way, he's awesome in his analysis of things.
Ammo Sphere
04-09-10, 00:16
Did anyone else hear how they are going to use the IRS as their attack dog to enforce "Obama Care"?
ForTehNguyen
04-09-10, 07:57
uh oh Stupak scared and retiring, vote and run: :rolleyes:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/35585.html
Did anyone else hear how they are going to use the IRS as their attack dog to enforce "Obama Care"?
IRS estimated they need 16000 new agents to steal this money
It's far more satisfying than foaming at the mouth.
[/URL]
Who is foaming at the mouth?
It is funny how lame "insurance" companies are using Obama as a spokesman trying to make it like he induces those infomercials. Is he selling his presidency for ad money or are they running these commercials and no one is doing anything about it?
He's paralyzed from a diving accident. IDK if he's paralyzed from the neck or the waist down however. I've seen him slightly move his arms and head on Special Report though so maybe its the waist down. Either way, he's awesome in his analysis of things.
I watched part of it tonight, and he seems to sway around when he talks.
Shooter101
05-02-10, 15:37
Here is this B.S. HC bill, copy and paste it in your browser. Sit back and get ready for the B.S. to fly!
http://www.opencongress.org/search/result?q=HR3200&search_congress%5B111%5D=111&search_bills=1&search_people=1&search_committees=1&search_issues=1&search_comments=1&submit.x=21&submit.y=19
parishioner
05-11-10, 19:45
Whoops! Our estimates were a little off. Try 115 BILLION off. Well isn't it convenient this comes out after it was passed. Obama is the biggest joke of the century. Lord help us.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100511/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_overhaul_costs
I believe health care is not a right and you only deserve it if you've earned (paid for) it.
With that said, I also believe that all this talk about health care bankrupting America and Obama being an epic failure are just products of the media. Lefts, Rights and everybody else will always be critical of whomever is in the Oval Office so in the long-run it really doesn't matter.
Whoops! Our estimates were a little off. Try 115 BILLION off. Well isn't it convenient this comes out after it was passed. Obama is the biggest joke of the century. Lord help us.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100511/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_overhaul_costs
God help us indeed. The last sentence (quote) is epic! He will veto what he pushed and wanted all along! Guess he shouldn't have listened to pelozi and read the blasted thing....before they passed it.
I'll be 100% honest, I don't know what's even in the bill...
Wait till you get your next W2.......
ObamaCare vs. the Constitution
The health bills in Congress rob you of your constitutional rights. Here are five provisions (of many) that fail the constitutionality test and reveal Congress's disrespect for the public
* Section 3403of the Senate health bill, establishing a commission to cut Medicare spending, says the law can't be changed or repealed in the future. This whopper shows that Congress thinks its work should be set in stone. Wrong. The people always have the right to elect a new Congress to change or repeal what a previous Congress has done.
* A Senate health-bill amendment mysteriously allocates $100 million to an unnamed facility that "shall be affiliated with an academic health center at a public research university in the United States that contains a state's sole public academic medical and dental school" (Sec. 10502, p. 328-329). Why not name the facility?
This pork deal was arranged by Sen. Chris Dodd for the University of Connecticut Health Center, although 11 hospitals in the nation technically meet these specifications. If Congress wrote the provision in Polish or Russian to keep the public in the dark, it would be unconstitutional. The language is a deception. The fact that legislators commonly do this makes it more damaging, not less so.
* The bills require you to enroll in a "qualified health plan," whether you want it or not. Forcing people to buy insurance obviously reduces the number of uninsured. But Congress doesn't have the authority to force people to buy a product.
Sen. Orin Hatch (R-Nev.) said on the Senate floor, "If Congress may require individuals to purchase a particular good or service . . . We could simply require that Americans buy certain cars . . . for that matter, we could attack the problem of obesity by requiring Americans to buy fruits and vegetables."
Some Congress members claim the "general welfare clause" of the Constitution empowers them to impose a mandate. But they're taking the phrase out of context. The
Visit us at www.defendyourhealthcare.us
Constitution gives Congress power to tax and spend for the general welfare, but not to make other kinds of laws for the general welfare.
The Senate bill (pages 320-324) claims the "interstate commerce" clause of the Constitution gives Congress this authority. But for half a century, states have regulated health insurance. In fact, individuals are barred from buying insurance in any state except where they live, the antithesis of interstate commerce.
Congressional majorities have frequently resorted to the commerce clause to justify their lawmaking. In FDR's first term, Congress cited it to pass the National Industrial Recovery Act, which gave the federal government power to micromanage local businesses, setting wages and hours and even barring customers from selecting their live chickens at the butcher. Two Brooklyn brothers, owners of Schechter Poultry Corp., a kosher chicken business, challenged that interference. In 1935, the US Supreme Court ruled the NIRA unconstitutional.
In 1995, the high court again admonished Congress against using the commerce clause as a basis for expanded lawmaking, even when the purpose is as worthy as keeping handguns out of a school zone (US v. Lopez). The court ruled that Congress must stick to its enumerated powers and leave states to police school zones (and, perhaps, mandate health insurance).
* Never before has the federal government intruded into decisions made by doctors for privately insured patients, except on narrow issues such as drug safety. Nothing in the Constitution permits it. But the Senate bill makes you enroll in a plan and then says that only doctors who do what the government dictates can be paid by your plan.
"Qualified plans" can contract only with a doctor who "implements such mechanisms to improve health-care quality as the [current or future] secretary [of Health and Human Services] may by regulation require" (Sec. 1311, p. 148-49). That covers all of medicine, from heart care to child birth, stents to mammograms.
* Finally, the "takings clause" of the Fifth Amendment bars government from taking your property without compensation. It should protect everyone, no matter how unpopular -- even insurance companies, but Congress ignored it in writing the health bill. The Senate version goes beyond reining in insurance-company abuses, a just cause, and actually caps insurance-company profit margins at well below current levels, robbing shareholders.
Next year, Congress could impose similar caps on profit margins of bodegas, pizzerias and grocers, by arguing that food -- also a necessity -- is too expensive. Your business could be next.
In 2010, ordinary citizens will have to stand up for their constitutional rights, just as the Schechter brothers did 75 years ago. Congress members swear to uphold the Constitution, but it appears many are ignorant of what it says. They should be mandated to take a
Visit us at www.defendyourhealthcare.us
course, as pilots and doctors are. Congress needs to be reminded that the Constitution defines and limits its powers.
Betsy McCaughey, a former New York lieutenant governor, is author of "Government by Choice: Inventing the United States Constitution."
Von Rheydt
10-01-10, 09:34
Yes. They are taking 600 billion in new taxes out of the economy. Its going to be harder to employ people, and hire new workers due to the mandates.
Presently She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO), the wife, is gearing up to hire 800 staff for her division. The problem is more about finding the right people and people who can read and write. Then, once they have a job with benefits, they all want 'kin bonuses and enhancements.........be grateful you have 'kin jobs.
Private insurance is going to go up. Private insurance is a subsidy to the government plans, and the ...............
True. SWMBO is looking through the insurance offerings for staff for next year. Across the board though, with what they can offer, costs have gone up and cover has gone down.
Interestingly, I have whole of world cover provided to me by a non-USA based insurer. I can get sick or be treated anywhere in the world - and the policy has better and more comprehensive cover than anything on offer from a US provider.............go figure.
Rarely is there such a thing as taxes on the rich because they are in the position to deflect those added costs into other segments. This includes business owners laying people off, cutting benefits, cutting pay, raising prices on products, etc. Its always the middle class, and somewhat the low income people who end up really paying for it. If you rich boss suddenly has to pay 20% more taxes in a year where do you think he is going to look to make up for that. Your paycheck, your benefits, etc. When you go to the grocery store you're going to pay more. The more taxes rise the less buying power your money has, and you might even start making less if you even keep your job.
Thats the reality of the world and economics. The answer is to become your own boss.
This is why Europe historically has always had a much larger rate of unemployment than the US.
Wrong. Fact: At the moment its only 8% in the UK.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12
Our recession numbers are somewhat normal for them.
Refer to answer above. Fact: 8% compared to 9.6% here in the USA.
Many many more people over there are reliant on public transportation because they cannot afford to drive a car with the taxes
Everyone I knew had a car. The work force there is mobile and needs to be able to get around.
, and 10 dollars for a gallon of gas.
Ah, propaganda. Fact: Cars in Europe are more fuel efficient than the gas guzzling 1950's technology based V8 engined vehicles that are driven over here.
Fact: I have a people carrier/MPV, with 7 seats, thing because I have kids it has a shagging huge V6 engine in it and is realistically about as nimble as a slug on a pogo stick. I am lucky at $2.70 a gallon to get 18MPG thats 15c a mile. In the UK I also had a people carrier/MPV made by VW, it also seated 7, BUT it was a 4cyl 1.9TDI. It could do 120mph, accelerated like snot of a stick and gave 45MPG on the highway AT $6.75 TO THE GALLON NOT $10. Thats also 15c to the mile............so theres no bloody difference.
What pisses me is that useful, usable economic cars are not sold over here.
Mopeds are so popular over there because its the only way many can get around without sitting on a bus.
Never, ever, ever, in my entire life have I owned, used or even sat on a 'kin moped.
Colonel: "Can you check the men are OK"?
Sgt Maj: "I'll just jump on the moped and go check Sir".
Mopeds are used in some of the larger, older European cities: Paris; Berlin; Warsaw. That is more because of the space restriction than anything else. These cities are almost 2000 years old and have evolved over time, they are not the neat little rows of squares that you see in the USA.
We have a saying in England, "All Americans think that England is covered in thatched cottages and we all know each other". Looks like I'll have to add "and we all ride mopeds" to that also.
The entire EU has around 500 million people, and barely has a higher collective GDP than the US at 300 million.
Hardly surprising really. Think about it and take a look at Europe. At the moment Europe is bringing in lots of the former Warsaw Pact/USSR/Iron Curtain countries. This costs money and most of those countries are still trying to find an identity and establish a baseline for their own economic well being that takes them off reliance on EU handouts.
Why is Europe taking them in? Do YOU want them going back to Russia, now that we are all friends and Russia has got all the [military] technology it did not have previously?
High taxes create stagnant economies with tons of people reliant on the government.
8% unemployment in the UK compared to 9.6% here.
Less people go to secondary education there
Where is that then? By law you either go to school or your parents must demonstrate that they have Tertiary education and are able to educate you to the appropriate standard. This is continually monitored by the Dept of Education in the UK.
their survival rates for disease is lower
Interestingly I watched an interview with a Doc from Long Beach, Ca. He wanted to deal with hospital borne infections (C Diff, MRSA) in the USA as 90,000 people a year die from them .......... I could'nt believe it.........His solution, patients should be washed every morning, bed linen should be changed daily and staff should be taught about pro actively washing their hands.
To be honest, if thats what it is like in hospitals here that is scary.
their military's are almost a joke
I was in the British Army, I bet the boys down in Helmand would be grateful to your guys for you calling them a joke. There is a forum rule about not insulting the military.
and they are perhaps worse off in the debt department than the US is.
In the Uk 1 in 10 houses was in danger of repo. Here it was 1 in 4.
You do the math.
Yet the above is what our dear leader and crew want for us. A European style government where the people are not citizens but subjects (to their every whim). Obama complains 70k people a year die because they dont have health insurance. Ask Europe how many people die because their socialist systems have lower survival rates than we do.
The first question when you fall through an ER door in Europe is not, "Have you got insurance"? They fix you and off you go. For that privelege you pay a percentage out of your salary.
I have a friend here who went to Greece on holiday and had a motorcycle accident. She woke up three days later in hospital and stayed in for a couple of weeks. She tried to give them her insurance details but they were not interested..........thats public healthcare at work.
Same thing, any of you lot here get sick or have an accident whilst on holiday in Euro-land, they will fix you up to a basic minimum in most countries and others will take you through full treatment.
Having babies is free in hospitals in the UK, go figure, someone doing something for free.
In the long term taxes are going to have to go up to pay for all this. We are right now running about a 1.5 trillion yearly deficit. It has to go up. They are likely going to look at more taxes on this evil rich people and companies, more nickle and dime taxes on the people, raise the gas taxes, a VAT "sales tax" on top of our income taxes, high SS and medicare taxes, etc. A socialist government consumes far more money than what we are supposed to have- a small limited government. Check out what the Federal budget was 100 years ago compared to today after socialism has taken root in our system.
VAT is sales tax and all States already apply their own, as far as I know.
The reason there is a deficit is that people borrowed, got in the shit and now the mess is being cleaned up. Hey, my wife is picking up the mess of a few of the staff they employ because people are still doing stupid things and getting credit to buy those must have items.
****, I saw a guy yesterday with a piece of a cardboard box with "PLEASE HELP UNEMPLOYED" written on it. He was standing there talking on his Iphone and smoking a cigarette.............get ****ing real.
Now I am not a socialist. However, I come from Europe where we pay for Government provided services such as: health; retirement ; unemployment. These are taken from your monthly salary.
Now tell me that for 4% - 6% of your monthly salary you would turn down ALWAYS:
1. Getting healthcare;
2. Getting a decent unemployment cheque if you lost your job;
3. Getting a pension when you retired.
Now, you can add to these to get a bigger pension, private health, more unemployment. But, bottomline, you and your family are taken care of.
Belmont31R was talking about all of Europe, not just the UK, when he was talking about unemployment, and he was talking historically, not just now.
Current unemployment Europewide
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=teilm020&tableSelection=1&plugin=1
Essay from 2004 (to give historical perspective) on European unemployment
http://www.nber.org/reporter/summer04/blanchard.html
Historically (at least over the last many years) it has been higher than the US. (And still is Europe wide)
I seriously doubt that only 4-6% of your salary was taken out to provide your "free" healthcare and other govt benefits you mention.
It seems from this link
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm
that the beginning rate for income tax is 20% and that there is a 40% band and starting in 2010 a 50% band. All higher than in the US. Even if you add in state income taxes, the tax rate is higher there. On top of the 17.5% VAT, which is 2-3 times higher than sales tax in the US. (And no, a VAT is not a sales tax. It is computed entirely differently from a conceptual basis and is included in the price. A sales tax is computed on the sales price and goes to the states, not the Feds. There are rumors of a Fed VAT being contemplated here)
Simple synopsis of tax rates. Europeans are taxed higher
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/tax.5cq
With regard to gas prices. Current European average is around $7/gallon. So, yes, $10/gal was a bit exaggerated.
http://goeurope.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=goeurope&cdn=travel&tm=16&f=10&su=p531.51.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html%23Motor
The UK price is right under $7/gal
Wrong. Fact: At the moment its only 8% in the UK.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12
Refer to answer above. Fact: 8% compared to 9.6% here in the USA.
8% unemployment in the UK compared to 9.6% here.
Why not take Spain as an example of European unemployment, at modest 20%?
OK, forget it, let's take UK: I'd submit that there is no significant difference between 8% and 9.6%; however, you guys fork out 40-50% of income to keep those rates - which, I submit, is a significant difference with 30-39% max here. So which system is more efficient in controlling this issue
Interestingly I watched an interview with a Doc from Long Beach, Ca. He wanted to deal with hospital borne infections (C Diff, MRSA) in the USA as 90,000 people a year die from them .......... I could'nt believe it.........His solution, patients should be washed every morning, bed linen should be changed daily and staff should be taught about pro actively washing their hands.
To be honest, if thats what it is like in hospitals here that is scary.
Mortality from nosocomial infections is roughly the same between all industrialized countries.
In the Uk 1 in 10 houses was in danger of repo. Here it was 1 in 4.
Courtesy of greed and wonderful governmental intervention known as Community Reinvestment Act.
I have a friend here who went to Greece on holiday and had a motorcycle accident. She woke up three days later in hospital and stayed in for a couple of weeks. She tried to give them her insurance details but they were not interested..........thats public healthcare at work.
.
Greece, methinks, would a particularly poor example, given current situation there. What's at work is not a public healthcare, but labor workers of EU bailing out entire Greece - including its healthcare - from going under. Who's not at work are Greek doctors who are currently on strike against austerity measures. So, yeah, if I was in "their" place, I would certainly take your friend's insurance info...
Same thing, any of you lot here get sick or have an accident whilst on holiday in Euro-land, they will fix you up to a basic minimum in most countries and others will take you through full treatment.
.
If you have an accident whilst on holiday in US-land, you'll be fixed too, insurance or not - only you'll be fixed better than in Euro-land. Clinical outcomes for what's knows as "rescue care" - such as major trauma, trauma ortho, acute coronary etc. - are better in US than anywhere in the world. There are many reasons why US healthcare is most expensive in the world, and proportional percentage expenses spent on rescue care is one of reasons. There is no "basic minimum", there is "standard of care" and according to societal values, US standard of care is to spare nothing on care of people in true acute medical emergency - whether it is a right thing or if we can afford it is a separate discussion...
I received a bunch of emails towards the end of the day today regarding the legislation, a whole lotta shit coming down the pike. Barely got a chance to skim it though. One thing is for certain, HHS is making it up as it goes along and YOU DON'T GET TO KEEP YOUR PLAN IF YOU LIKE IT, ESPECIALLY YOU PEOPLE THAT HAVE MEDICARE ADVANTAGE AND PART D.
The one email I did read was regarding what is considered essential care now and must be covered by all plans, nicotine cessation (ie. chantix) is one example off the top of my head, the list waaaaas loooooong. If your plan doesn't cover it, your plan is a dinosaur, it doesn't meet the standard of essential care by HHS and you/your employer will have to select a new plan.
Gone are the days that the 25 year olds can carry a basic major medical only policy that will cover extreme emergency inpatient hospital stays and surgeries, on the cheap. You WILL now have to carry a FULL plan that covers EVERYTHING that HHS says it WILL cover.
Von Rheydt
10-02-10, 10:53
Chadbag & YVK, I'll come back to this next week. I had hand surgery yesterday and left hand typing is not too clever.
Sure thing, get well soon!
Funny the bill is called Healthcare Reform....... but it has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with Insurance Reform.:big_boss:
Belmont31R
10-02-10, 16:20
Presently She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO), the wife, is gearing up to hire 800 staff for her division. The problem is more about finding the right people and people who can read and write. Then, once they have a job with benefits, they all want 'kin bonuses and enhancements.........be grateful you have 'kin jobs.
True. SWMBO is looking through the insurance offerings for staff for next year. Across the board though, with what they can offer, costs have gone up and cover has gone down.
Interestingly, I have whole of world cover provided to me by a non-USA based insurer. I can get sick or be treated anywhere in the world - and the policy has better and more comprehensive cover than anything on offer from a US provider.............go figure.
Thats the reality of the world and economics. The answer is to become your own boss.
Wrong. Fact: At the moment its only 8% in the UK.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12
Historically for all of Europe you guys have had a much higher unemployment rate.
Refer to answer above. Fact: 8% compared to 9.6% here in the USA.
Everyone I knew had a car. The work force there is mobile and needs to be able to get around.
I was stationed in Germany from 2003-2007, and have been to over 10 European countries. MOPEDs there outnumber them here 100 to 1 easily.
Ah, propaganda. Fact: Cars in Europe are more fuel efficient than the gas guzzling 1950's technology based V8 engined vehicles that are driven over here.
Fact: I have a people carrier/MPV, with 7 seats, thing because I have kids it has a shagging huge V6 engine in it and is realistically about as nimble as a slug on a pogo stick. I am lucky at $2.70 a gallon to get 18MPG thats 15c a mile. In the UK I also had a people carrier/MPV made by VW, it also seated 7, BUT it was a 4cyl 1.9TDI. It could do 120mph, accelerated like snot of a stick and gave 45MPG on the highway AT $6.75 TO THE GALLON NOT $10. Thats also 15c to the mile............so theres no bloody difference.
What pisses me is that useful, usable economic cars are not sold over here.
I should have said 6-10$ per gallon but yesterday I filled up my car with premium (required), and it was $2.75. Im only 26, and within my driving time Ive paid as little as 96 cents a gallon and that was in CA.
Never, ever, ever, in my entire life have I owned, used or even sat on a 'kin moped.
Colonel: "Can you check the men are OK"?
Sgt Maj: "I'll just jump on the moped and go check Sir".
Mopeds are used in some of the larger, older European cities: Paris; Berlin; Warsaw. That is more because of the space restriction than anything else. These cities are almost 2000 years old and have evolved over time, they are not the neat little rows of squares that you see in the USA.
We have a saying in England, "All Americans think that England is covered in thatched cottages and we all know each other". Looks like I'll have to add "and we all ride mopeds" to that also.
Again I was stationed in Germany from 2003-2007, and been to many European countries. Im shocked if I see a moped here whereas they were a common occurrence there.
Hardly surprising really. Think about it and take a look at Europe. At the moment Europe is bringing in lots of the former Warsaw Pact/USSR/Iron Curtain countries. This costs money and most of those countries are still trying to find an identity and establish a baseline for their own economic well being that takes them off reliance on EU handouts.
Why is Europe taking them in? Do YOU want them going back to Russia, now that we are all friends and Russia has got all the [military] technology it did not have previously?
I never said anything about that. However Europe has had over 2k more years to advance as a society, and the US still crushes them economically as a whole.
8% unemployment in the UK compared to 9.6% here.
Where is that then? By law you either go to school or your parents must demonstrate that they have Tertiary education and are able to educate you to the appropriate standard. This is continually monitored by the Dept of Education in the UK.
Secondary education AKA college. Last time I looked at the stats most European countries had a lower college attendence level than the US.
Interestingly I watched an interview with a Doc from Long Beach, Ca. He wanted to deal with hospital borne infections (C Diff, MRSA) in the USA as 90,000 people a year die from them .......... I could'nt believe it.........His solution, patients should be washed every morning, bed linen should be changed daily and staff should be taught about pro actively washing their hands.
To be honest, if thats what it is like in hospitals here that is scary.
My wife was just diagnosed with an illness that in the UK she could not even be screened for it until she is 25. If we lived in the UK Id likely have a dying wife within the next few years.
I was in the British Army, I bet the boys down in Helmand would be grateful to your guys for you calling them a joke. There is a forum rule about not insulting the military.
The US military has no peer in the world, and while some European countries have some good troops they still relied on US protection during the entire Cold War. If the Fulda Gap was ever invaded it would have been US troops taking the brunt of the action.
In the Uk 1 in 10 houses was in danger of repo. Here it was 1 in 4.
You do the math.
Thats because the UK is socialist, and where everyone has a right to a home.
The first question when you fall through an ER door in Europe is not, "Have you got insurance"? They fix you and off you go. For that privelege you pay a percentage out of your salary.
By US law any health care facility that accepts medicare/medicaid (almost all of them) you cannot be refused treatment because you cannot pay for it. The admin people might ask you if you have insurance but whether you do or not does not matter as you are going to get treated regardless.
I have a friend here who went to Greece on holiday and had a motorcycle accident. She woke up three days later in hospital and stayed in for a couple of weeks. She tried to give them her insurance details but they were not interested..........thats public healthcare at work.
Maybe thats why Greece has had to ask the resk of the world for a bail out?
Same thing, any of you lot here get sick or have an accident whilst on holiday in Euro-land, they will fix you up to a basic minimum in most countries and others will take you through full treatment.
Good for them. We aren't Europe, and the US was founded on individual liberty and individual responsbility. I think we won that contest back in the late 1700's.
Having babies is free in hospitals in the UK, go figure, someone doing something for free.
Nothing is free. Thats why you pay 6 something dollars a gallon for gas and everyone gets taxed out the wazoo.
VAT is sales tax and all States already apply their own, as far as I know.
The VAT tax in Germany when I was there was around 20%. Here its 8%.
The reason there is a deficit is that people borrowed, got in the shit and now the mess is being cleaned up. Hey, my wife is picking up the mess of a few of the staff they employ because people are still doing stupid things and getting credit to buy those must have items.
The reason we have any debt is because our government cannot do something as simple as spend as much or less as they take in.
****, I saw a guy yesterday with a piece of a cardboard box with "PLEASE HELP UNEMPLOYED" written on it. He was standing there talking on his Iphone and smoking a cigarette.............get ****ing real.
Most of those people are professional bums, and make around 15-20hr standing on a street corner.
Now I am not a socialist. However, I come from Europe where we pay for Government provided services such as: health; retirement ; unemployment. These are taken from your monthly salary.
Thats what happens in a society that decides government should coddle them like little babies from the time they pop out of their mothers vagina to the day they are put in the ground.
Now tell me that for 4% - 6% of your monthly salary you would turn down ALWAYS:
1. Getting healthcare;
2. Getting a decent unemployment cheque if you lost your job;
3. Getting a pension when you retired.
No. Id rather die a poor free man than be beholden to a government for everything in life.
Now, you can add to these to get a bigger pension, private health, more unemployment. But, bottomline, you and your family are taken care of.
Why can't you take care of yourselves?
American's have never had to kiss a God damned ring on a king's finger....;)
with regards to mopeds, motor bikes, scooters, etc. There are a billion more of them in Europe than in the US. When I lived in Germany we called the teenagers the Mofa Brigade and other less flattering things (Mofa is German slang for moped). Cost of ownership of automobiles in most places in Europe is much higher than in the US. (I lived in Germany on the economy without .gov connections working for a private company for 18 months 1991-1993 and registered 2 cars while there). And most people in Europe live in urban or in small town centers. The populace is not as spread out as in many places in Europe. A moped scooter is more practical for many people in such circumstances.
The UK may be the exception. I think Europeans find that as well (which is probably a compliment though not meant as such).
American's have never had to kiss a God damned ring on a king's finger....;)
Bravo.
parishioner
10-05-10, 17:19
Here is a small example of what I'm surrounded by in my classes. Keep in mind these are seniors in college at nursing school. This was a homework assignment where we had to discuss access to health care, come up with an objective, and a plan to meet that objective.
If anything makes me get on my soap box, it is definitely the topic of increasing the proportion of health insurance. I personally feel if the state can hand out welfare like its Halloween candy, then they should be able to do health insurance the same way. I have a family member who is twenty-one years old and three children. She doesn’t attend college, have a job, and doesn’t want one. All she does is sit at home every day and pick up her food stamps/welfare when the time comes. She is receiving over $500 in food stamps a month and even has the nerve to sell them. It makes me so angry that she can do that when I see women or hear stories of people who actually need it. Even though my family member’s children should not have to suffer and pay for her choices, I feel there needs to be a crack down on her. Then you have people that really could use government assistance until they are able to get on their feet. There was a woman who had young children and her husband died unexpectedly. She was not prepared to handle a situation such as that, and since her husband breadwinner, she was not able to pay the house note, car note, and take her children to the hospital and get them seen about when they were ill. I feel that it is morally wrong that people and their families can be turned away and not examined if they do not have health insurance. My friend was sharing with me an incidence where a woman had a very ill little girl and the hospital would not see the child or provide her with medication. The child eventually ended up passing away from complications. This possibly minor problem turned into something major because the child was refused treatment. It seems almost that in the end when minor problems are not handled and they become larger, the larger they are, the MORE expensive. So why not handle issues when they are still yet small??? You have to put yourselves in other’s shoes. If it was your mom, dad, brother, sister, grandmother, grandfather, etc, would you want them turned away? No man, woman, or child, should have to go without. So many older people as well aren’t able to afford the medications they need. Medications that they need to take every day, they’ll try to take every other day or once a week to make them last longer. If we can give celebrities and athletes 3, 4, 5, 15, 30, and so on million dollars a year, we should have NO homeless, NO starvation, NO health insurance denial, and so on. Who needs to be wearing $1.000 blue jeans or 1 million dollars and up worth of jewelry? One of Oprah’s houses cost 50 million dollars! She has even been known to rent her own personal island for $40,000 A DAY!! Not trying to knock her down or anything, but why do we have so many people suffering when there is ALL THIS MONEY BEING WASTED!
PLAN
One possible solution is for the country as a whole to be smarter with money and STOP SPENDING EVERYTHING. The government needs to change the salaries in the entertainment business and invest money in better health insurance plans so people can have access to better healthcare. For example, there are people who are uninsured or underinsured who cannot afford such drugs as Levaquin. Instead, they have to purchase Cipro antibiotics for disease management, which takes longer to manage their disease process. Our government should serve its people by providing alternative care plans for those who are uninsured or underinsured.
I see how it is first hand how difficult and stressful it is to live without any kind of health insurance whether its medical, dental, preventative, etc. I have no insurance at all. I was cut off my Medicare as soon as I turned 19 without any warning. So I went from, being the hypochondriac that I am, going to the doctor for every little sign or symptom to only goin for my annual at the health department. So, when I hear people say that the government should'nt provide people with health insurance because it's not their responsiblity, I say then whose is it when they can not afford it. Was the government not established to protect the people, stand up for the people, fight for the people? Yes, it was. It should be the government responsiblity because it is the governments fault that most people without insurance cannot afford it. All of the criteria and qualifications is just too much. There should be a set limit of coverage for everyone, if you go over that limit then you pay extra out your pocket. Basic health check ups and emergencies should be covered, thats why people have heart problems and high BP now because they can't go to the doctor to find out. Thats my opinion about the matter.
These responses make me want to puke in my mouth and they are a testament to these liberal indoctrination camps we call universities. The best part is these two responses and one other one are the only ones that were turned in so far. I can't wait to read the next 30.
Here is a small example of what I'm surrounded by in my classes. Keep in mind these are seniors in college at nursing school. This was a homework assignment where we had to discuss access to health care, come up with an objective, and a plan to meet that objective.
These responses make me want to puke in my mouth and they are a testament to these liberal indoctrination camps we call universities. The best part is these two responses and one other one are the only ones that were turned in so far. I can't wait to read the next 30.
Amen brother, AMEN.
parishioner
10-27-10, 23:26
For those who don't think students are being indoctrinated.
An excerpt from one of my textbooks that I had to buy:
"While a DVD player is considered a luxury, health care is regarded as a basic human need by most people.
For two weeks Marina Perez has had vaginal bleeding and has felt dizzy. She has no insurance and is terrified that medical care might eat up her $500 in savings. She scrapes together $100 to see her physician, who finds that her blood pressure falls to 90/50 mm Hg upon standing and that her hematocrit is 26%. The physician calls Marina's sister Juanita to drive her to the hospital. Marina gets into the car and tells Juanita to take her home.
If health care is a basic human right, then people who are unable to afford health care must have a payment mechanism available that is not reliant on out-of-pocket payments."
Notice the switcheroo they pulled with the word need and right. I can see right through this horse crap. Sadly, most in my class cannot. Since when does a need equate to a right?
An excerpt from one of my textbooks that I had to buy:
While a DVD player is considered a luxury, health care is regarded as a basic human need by most people.
It does not say "right" so it is not an unreasonable statement.
parishioner
10-27-10, 23:36
It does not say "right" so it is not an unreasonable statement.
Yea, I accidentally posted before I was finished. I edited it.
Yeah. Horse--hooey when you read the whole thing.
parishioner
10-28-10, 02:03
I'm actually doing a presentation in this class on this very subject (Is health care a right or privilege?) next week in class so if anyone knows of any online resources about this, I'm all ears. I've already combed through the cato institute's website and found a good bit of info. I'm also looking for info about anything regarding what the founding fathers interpreted "welfare" to mean because I just know someone is going to raise their hand after my presentation and say its the government's job to take care of us or some crap.
Thanks.
Gary Bauer's daily newsletter had the following in it today:
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ObamaCare = Redistribution Of Wealth
Douglas Elmendorf, director of the Congressional Budget Office, made an astonishing admission last week. Speaking before a healthcare conference, Elmendorf said the following:
“…the most significant impact of the [ObamaCare] legislation will be through the labor market. We estimated that the legislation, on net, will reduce the amount of labor used in the economy…primarily by reducing the amount that people choose to work. …Some provisions of the legislation will discourage people from working more hours or entering the workforce… The net reduction in the supply of labor is largely attributable to the substantial expansion of Medicaid and the provision of subsidies through the new insurance exchanges.”
According to Elmendorf, often referred to as “Congress’ accountant,” massive government subsidies for health insurance will cause many Americans either to work less or to stop working altogether. So they will be paying less in taxes and getting more in benefits. That is a recipe for fiscal disaster.
One Democrat governor recently had the courage to warn that ObamaCare creates perverse incentives for companies to drop their health insurance coverage and dump their employees into the “substantial expansion of Medicaid” that will become America’s version of nationalized medicine.
There is no doubt about it: ObamaCare is a major redistribution of wealth program. Obama is using healthcare “reform” to spread the wealth around, turning America into France. And just how is the European experiment in socialism going these days?
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I don't know how I originally got on his newsletter mail list as I don't sign up for that sort of thing but I do read it most days as it usually has interesting tidbits and links.
American's have never had to kiss a God damned ring on a king's finger....;)
No, but our national pride seems to have slipped a little relative to our place among nations...
http://mccollister.info/obamabow.jpg
Jenkins, Jr.: The GOP Can Outsmart ObamaCare - WSJ.com
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704462704575590344022699132.html
This news item appeared in what I believe is a Glen Beck news site but the original UK newspaper story is also listed (I don't listen to Beck often or any talk radio so am not up on the details of all his sites etc)
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/govt-health-care-lack-of-water-forces-patients-to-drink-from-vases-at-uk-hospital/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1332070/Stafford-Hospital-inquiry-Patients-left-water-forced-drink-vases.html
Don't read this, your blood will boil:
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Rove: ObamaCare Rewards Friends, Punishes Enemies - WSJ.com
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704405704576063892468779556.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
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I should've taken your advice and not read the article.
Blood boiling & heart burning.
Review & Outlook: ObamaCare's Reality Deficit - WSJ.com
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576065723458609678.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
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Florida restaurant owner adding surcharge on menu for Obamacare
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/15/florida-restaurant-owner-adding-surcharge-on-menu-for-obamacare/#ixzz2CJvTRdrk
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Florida restaurant owner adding surcharge on menu for Obamacare
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/15/florida-restaurant-owner-adding-surcharge-on-menu-for-obamacare/#ixzz2CJvTRdrk
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New York state has been doing that for years on all healthcare services to pay for Medicaid. It's hidden in the charges but the law is out there.
New York state has been doing that for years on all healthcare services to pay for Medicaid. It's hidden in the charges but the law is out there.
This is a private restaurant owner doing it to all his customers (and he owns/operates a buttload of restaurants). (And I think it is a good idea).
polydeuces
11-16-12, 00:01
The current health care system SUCKS. Why So? you might ask:
Well - simple: I cant afford it. Why? again you might ask -well, really simple - no health insurance company will even consider insuring me. Because of pre-existing conditions. And there are many like me.
The obscenity of which I lack words for. The rate of uninsured or underinsured in the US is beyond the pale, something only regarded as unacceptable once we understand and see how things can be different and better.
So for now, unless one is totally healthy, one is ****ed. Then when one has insurance and one becomes unhealthy, one gets ****ed again.
Really, the problem is the unlimited greed and utter lack of decency of Big Insurance who have absolutely no remorse or concern - other than a nice fat healthy P&L for the next quarter and keeping the board happy.
I couldn't give a rats-ass about who's sitting their behind in the white house, controls the house or senate or whatever - whoever is willing and able to stop the insurance companies from fleecing and strangling ALL of US to death, and if at the end of the day maybe I can finally afford getting some, any basic essential medical treatment when needed without losing my house, life-savings and every dollar I ever worked for they have my support.
A sidenote, if anyone cared to remember - who was paying attention to the markets - those cocksuckers sure were shitting their pants and a mad scramble like rats in the dark was heard when the first serious talk about universal healthcare started, with their obscene insurance profits possibly getting curtailed, cut oh so short....
(and I use the word obscene because having worked for both big Pharma and Insurance companies i can attest to the staggering amounts of cash they have at their disposal - money that has to come from somewhere, guess where......but i digress)
SO given that the bulk of Obamacare is written and designed by big insurance.....not holding my breath nor counting blessings.
The current health care system SUCKS. Why So? you might ask:
Well - simple: I cant afford it. Why? again you might ask -well, really simple - no health insurance company will even consider insuring me. Because of pre-existing conditions. And there are many like me.
The obscenity of which I lack words for. The rate of uninsured or underinsured in the US is beyond the pale, something only regarded as unacceptable once we understand and see how things can be different and better.
So for now, unless one is totally healthy, one is ****ed. Then when one has insurance and one becomes unhealthy, one gets ****ed again.
Really, the problem is the unlimited greed and utter lack of decency of Big Insurance who have absolutely no remorse or concern - other than a nice fat healthy P&L for the next quarter and keeping the board happy.
I couldn't give a rats-ass about who's sitting their behind in the white house, controls the house or senate or whatever - whoever is willing and able to stop the insurance companies from fleecing and strangling ALL of US to death, and if at the end of the day maybe I can finally afford getting some, any basic essential medical treatment when needed without losing my house, life-savings and every dollar I ever worked for they have my support.
A sidenote, if anyone cared to remember - who was paying attention to the markets - those cocksuckers sure were shitting their pants and a mad scramble like rats in the dark was heard when the first serious talk about universal healthcare started, with their obscene insurance profits possibly getting curtailed, cut oh so short....
(and I use the word obscene because having worked for both big Pharma and Insurance companies i can attest to the staggering amounts of cash they have at their disposal - money that has to come from somewhere, guess where......but i digress)
SO given that the bulk of Obamacare is written and designed by big insurance.....not holding my breath nor counting blessings.
If you think that insurance is too expensive, try paying cash for non-routine and in-patient care. The only thing worse than a blood sucking insurance company is cock sucking doctors, nurses, and administrators who just want to profit off of other's misfortune. I say pass some laws that limit the profits that anyone can make in the healthcare industry - not just insurance companies. That'll fix the problem. :rolleyes:
Disaster for Dems
ObamaCare & the 2014 vote
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/disaster_for_dems_P70XNzYjeUeBJXoDvtZimL
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brickboy240
03-25-13, 14:48
When people start going on about "obscene profits" I tend to write them off.
What would one consider "acceptable profits?"
Businesses like insurance companies exist to.....gasp...make profits!
They are not there to provide you a place to go for 8 hours a day or give you a 401k....they exist only to make money.
This goes for every other industry...oil and even gun making....all in it for those evil "obscene" profits.
-brickboy240
ObamaCare forces a good doctor to quit | Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/03/26/obamacare-forces-good-doctor-to-quit/
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