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wild_wild_wes
03-25-10, 22:24
Which should be the heavier amount: the amount you can Squat, or what you can deadlift?

lethal dose
03-25-10, 22:36
I used to squat 740 in the box... my dead lift was nowhere close. ;)

wild_wild_wes
03-25-10, 23:22
Okay, another way of asking this would be: what are the current amounts you guys are Squatting, and Deadlifting?

lethal dose
03-26-10, 00:19
Mid fours in the box... mid twos off the ground. Old back injuries.

ROCKET20_GINSU
03-26-10, 04:21
If you are doing full Parallel squats (not box squats) and full deadlifts, my experience has been that you can usually deadlift quite a bit more than you can squat but my squat has always been weak in comparison to my clean and deadlifts.

At my strongest I could deadlift 440 and squat 275 ish, now a days I can probably squat clean...225-250 and deadlift 350 ish.

YMMV

GU

D.O.A.F.S.
03-26-10, 07:03
If you are doing full Parallel squats (not box squats) and full deadlifts, my experience has been that you can usually deadlift quite a bit more than you can squat but my squat has always been weak in comparison to my clean and deadlifts.


GU

I would agree, if both are done CORRECT, you will dead lift probably 20-30% more weight then you can squat. There's a huge difference between a correct squat and what you see most guys doing at the gym.

WillBrink
03-26-10, 09:14
Which should be the heavier amount: the amount you can Squat, or what you can deadlift?

There's no should on that one. Due to mechanics, etc, etc, differences between people, it goes either way for people.

lethal dose
03-26-10, 10:02
There's no should on that one. Due to mechanics, etc, etc, differences between people, it goes either way for people.
exactly. i was NEVER able to dead lift anywhere near what i could squat. think about it... depending on how you break up your workout and which parts you focus on, it could vary a lot. i have a buddy who can bench as much as his squat and his dead lift is close. it really does depend on a) what willbrink said... mechanics, etc. and b) how you focus your workout.

SHIVAN
03-26-10, 10:41
I am 6'2" and honestly felt that deadlift was working against me. I could squat over 600lbs at my peak around 18yo. I could only deadlift ~405lbs.

wild_wild_wes
03-26-10, 23:39
Well I'm new at these, building the amounts I do slowly and I was sure I heard somewhere that Deadlift should be more, but for me after the latest weight I added, the deadlift was very hard but I feel like I'm nowhere near having difficulty with the same amount in a squat.

b_w_hlls
03-26-10, 23:49
I would agree, if both are done CORRECT, you will dead lift probably 20-30% more weight then you can squat. There's a huge difference between a correct squat and what you see most guys doing at the gym.

I was taught and only use the front squat, it seems easier on my back, but I see alot of guys using a back squat, which is the better technique?

WillBrink
03-27-10, 09:31
I was taught and only use the front squat, it seems easier on my back, but I see alot of guys using a back squat, which is the better technique?

Neither/both. Both are productive exercises that should be a staple of any lower body program, injuries, etc not withstanding.

QuickStrike
03-29-10, 00:23
Squats: 360
Deads: 325

Below parallel w/ knee wraps for squats. W/ wrist straps for deads.

May be I'm not pushing myself enough for deads, but since my back is involved I'm going to proceed carefully. My bitch hands/grip strength also limits my deadlifting. :mad:

wild_wild_wes
03-29-10, 22:20
Below parallel w/ knee wraps for squats. W/ wrist straps for deads.


I don't know what that means :(



My bitch hands/grip strength also limits my deadlifting.

I get that too with Bent Over Rows. Above 110 lbs. I can lift the iron, but my hands will not stay closed.

I started Squats and Deads just a few months ago and am increasing the weights incrementally. I'm at 220 now with both and the Deads are getting harder, but the Squats are not much of an effort yet, which is why I started this thread; somewhere I had heard Deads should be more and wondered if I was doing something wrong.

750.356
03-30-10, 07:57
My squat was always WAYYY less than my deadlift. In fact, there was a long period of time where my bench was heaver than my squat. :eek:

At the height of my 5/3/1 training last year, my 5RM for deadlift was 285, and 5RM for squat was only 165.

The answer varies a lot from person to person. Also consider the fact that the VAST majority of people you see in a gym aren't 'squatting', and are actually performing 1/2 or 1/4 squats. Because of this, peoples squat #s they tell you will almost always be greatly inflated. If it's not below parallel, it's not a squat.

Cruncher Block
03-30-10, 20:34
Squats: 360
Deads: 325

Below parallel w/ knee wraps for squats. W/ wrist straps for deads.

May be I'm not pushing myself enough for deads, but since my back is involved I'm going to proceed carefully. My bitch hands/grip strength also limits my deadlifting. :mad:

You may already be doing this right so forgive me if I'm suggesting something you already know....

When deadlifting for max, turn the palms opposite each other -- one palm pronated over the top and the other palm supinated underneath. Then "over-twist" your hands before gripping the bar. In other words, reach way around so that the bar rests inside the pads at the base of your fingers.

You should find that the opposing twists "lock" the bar into your grip. The hands are better able to hold since the twist from one works against the twist from the other.

Magnesium carbonate chalk is also a must-have to keep the bar from slipping. Baby powder on the shins and knees will help encourage a straight pull.

ras61541
03-31-10, 00:20
My max back squat is 405# but I got that three times after doing a squat workout so I think I could go higher.

My max deadlift is 415#, so they are close to the same with me. Dealifts (and squats for that matter) are all about form. You can have all the strength in the world but if you lose form your lifts will suffer (and so will your back).

As for grip... for anything over 300# on DLs I alternate my grip and it helps tremendously.

I do front squats also but cannot go near as heavy or do near as many of them because they kill my knees for some reason.

This thread just made me realize how much I really need to get back into the gym!

QuickStrike
04-01-10, 04:43
.

I have been using the alternating grip method and chalk. Will try the over-twist thing though.


Thanks for the tip!


The answer varies a lot from person to person. Also consider the fact that the VAST majority of people you see in a gym aren't 'squatting', and are actually performing 1/2 or 1/4 squats. Because of this, peoples squat #s they tell you will almost always be greatly inflated. If it's not below parallel, it's not a squat.

Too true, I have had the urge to cling on the bar and pull them DOWN. :D Some also do this on the leg press...

jvencius
04-02-10, 17:18
When I started doing Crossfit a couple months ago I had to almost completely re-learn how to squat and since I had to get used to coming down waaaay farther than I was used to (from ~1/2 way down to below parallel), the amount of weight I could squat plummeted (~185-ish). Now that I'm building back up with good form, I'm able to squat around 225-ish on a good day but that modest amount of weight is moving over a MUCH longer path and that's a good thing, IMO.

ICANHITHIMMAN
04-04-10, 10:47
I don't use wraps! I feel that my squat will always be stronger than my dead lift. I just got back in the gym 4 weeks ago after 1 1/2 years off.

Squat it right at 205 for 4 sets of 6-8 and Im adding weight every week
Deadlift is around the same 205 but I expect the squat to take off as I am adding weight at a much faster rate.

I'm 6'3" 205 and have lost 25 pounds in the last 2 years
JM2CENTS
Jon

User Name
04-04-10, 10:57
I was significantly stronger with dead lifts than squats. 450 give or take on max dead lift 315 ass to ankles on squat for 4 to 5 reps. For some reason I never did much to test my max on squats. These weights were at 25 years old 5'10 170lbs now I am 34yrs @ 230 and can barely squat my own weight:( Need a diet and some test. then it will be all good :)

WillBrink
04-04-10, 10:58
When I started doing Crossfit a couple months ago I had to almost completely re-learn how to squat and since I had to get used to coming down waaaay farther than I was used to (from ~1/2 way down to below parallel), the amount of weight I could squat plummeted (~185-ish). Now that I'm building back up with good form, I'm able to squat around 225-ish on a good day but that modest amount of weight is moving over a MUCH longer path and that's a good thing, IMO.

Of course you didn't need CF to teach you ATG squats. ;)

WillBrink
04-04-10, 11:01
I was significantly stronger with dead lifts than squats.

If you were to look at the numbers for elite power lifters, you will generally find their DL is higher then their squat numbers. Not true 100% of the time, but that's normally what you would see.

crazymoose
04-06-10, 00:01
There's no should on that one. Due to mechanics, etc, etc, differences between people, it goes either way for people.

I agree with this. Generally, the better you do at "pulling" motions, the worse you'll do at "pushing" motions, and vice-versa.

At the end of my senior year in college, we had an informal weightlifting competition. I had been training about 4-6 months for it, pretty intensely dedicated to powerlifting instead of general weightlifting I'd been training since age 17 (was 24 at the time). My DL was in the mid to high-ish 600s (don't remember it exactly, but that magic 700 was damned frustrating and I could never got to it), and I could do a one-armed bent-over row for a few reps with a 230 dumbbell. That said, I think my best squat, with strict form, was somewhere shy of 450, my best bench was like 335, and my military press was pretty sad (can't remember the numbers for it).

Long arms and torso= born deadlifter and rower (this is how I'm built)

Stocky build = born bencher and squatter

Keep in mind that I'm 6'3" and was like 285 at the time, so pound for pound my numbers aren't that great.

jasonhgross
04-07-10, 14:03
I am 5'8", 170lbs, 36 years old.

I deadlift 225lbs (traditional bent legged) (3x10)
I was squatting 225 to parallel. (3x10)

I am not working on a 1x20 squat cycle for the next six weeks. So I backed off to 205lbs, but I'll be adding 5lbs a week to the bar.

For reference I bent over row with 90lb dumbells and only bench with 75lb dumbells for reps. But I lift clean and keep excellent form at all times.

Rubiconmike26
04-12-10, 14:30
Everyone will has a diffrent body style and will be better at some lifts then other. As long as you are training to a functional fitness level, IE full squats and no wraps and belts, and using a full range of motion the weight will come. I'm a pretty small guy, 5'10" and 165 but have a 300 lbs squat and 375lbs dead with not wraps or belt. But in a long story longer, you should be able to squat more then you dead just based on the amount of muscle groups your using. that will not apply to everyone though. Alot of people think that for some reason dead lift is a leg exersice but it is a lower back and core strenght is what it works on. that will not apply to everyone though.

wes007
04-12-10, 20:13
Long arms and torso= born deadlifter and rower (this is how I'm built)

Stocky build = born bencher and squatter



Exactly. Remeber the equation for work is W = FD which means work is equal to applied force x distance. Being a former sprinter I have longer arms and legs than the average person does as well as a slightly shorter torso. When it came to weightlifiting my bench and squat were always slightly lower than everyone else's but my deadlift was always slightly higher and I blame that to my body mechanics. You can be applying the same force to a weight as someone else is but if the distance between the weight is different the total amount of work done on the weight will be different. Thus like everyone else said its up to your own personal body mechanics that will determine which max will be higher.

blake-b
04-15-10, 17:15
I'm built to deadlift. I pulled 455# 3 times yesterday (touch and go, not dead stop) and I only squat about 350ish... I use the high hips, upper back rounded style to deadlift so most of the lift is low back.

If you look at high level powerlifters you will see their squats are often higher than their dead. This is because of the supportive gear they use. If done raw or only with belt, MOST people's deadlifts are higher than their squats.

It truly boils down to how you are built. I will never be a good bencher or overhead presser...

wild_wild_wes
04-15-10, 22:40
I'm not sure I'm using proper form on my Deadlifts. Can anyone post a link to a good youtube vid please?

QuickStrike
04-16-10, 05:00
I'm not sure I'm using proper form on my Deadlifts. Can anyone post a link to a good youtube vid please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFs9em8h8ZE&feature=related

Cruncher Block
04-16-10, 21:33
I'm not sure I'm using proper form on my Deadlifts. Can anyone post a link to a good youtube vid please?

QuickStrike's link is good.

As far as describing it, I'll share what I've learned and used. This applies to competition deadlifting for max.

Keep your back as close to straight as possible, even in the bottom position. The lower back muscles are the "weak link" and the muscles you are most likely to injure. Be sure to stretch and warm-up before hitting the heavy weight.

Keeping the back straight in the bottom position means you are going to have to get your butt down. It's a cliche but it's 100% true -- lift with your legs. The legs and hips are the source of your power.

In the video, Jim Wendler is using a knees-inside-elbows stance. I prefer this too but a few people like the knees-outside-elbows (a.k.a. "sumo") stance. In my experience, knees-inside puts the stress on the quadriceps and knees-outside puts it on the glutes.

GET YOUR HEAD UP! One very helpful visualization tip I was given was to imagine driving the back of my head through the top of the wall behind me.

In the bottom position with your grip set, the weight of the bar will help you hold your balance. With a tight belt, the bottom should be a VERY uncomfortable position. All the more incentive to stand up. ;)

Lift the bar straight up. Visualize it going perfectly vertical or even straight up and slightly back. Never let it go away from your body. Use baby powder on your shins and don't be afraid to let the bar drag against your shins. Trying to hold the weight out front or off your legs will reduce your power, throw you off balance, and put way more strain on your lower back.

For competition purposes, the lift has to be a smooth one-way motion. You can't "hitch" or rest the weight on your thighs or knees. You also have to stand all the way up straight with you lower back locked.

Get that belt tight. If you can walk around with it, it's not tight enough. A good powerlifting belt is worth the investment -- mine is almost 20 years old and still good. Still fits, too. ;)

Wear flat, thin-soled shoes (I love classic Converse Chuck Taylors). The thicker the sole, the higher you are off the ground and deeper you have to reach to get set. By the way, deadlifts while standing on a solid raised block are a good training tool -- sure makes that weight seem lighter when you're flat on the ground.

I've mentioned visualization a few times. I can't stress how important it is in the deadlift. Take the time to imagine yourself making a clean pull with the weight -- how it will feel, how the muscles will move, the path of the bar. KNOW that you're going to stand up straight with that bar in your hands.

Again, BUTT DOWN, BACK STRAIGHT, HEAD UP.

Sorry if I'm long-winded. While I think the squat is the most "bang-for-the-buck" movement, the deadlift is the one I enjoy the most. I love the feeling of being totally amped up yet totally calm and focused right before the pull -- very zen or something. :) There's the time-slowing-down agony for a few moments, then that glorious moment of locking out straight with the bar in your hands and knowing you got it.

wild_wild_wes
04-17-10, 20:13
Thanks for the vid and advice, guys! I just did my workout (Squats, Deadlifts, Lunges, Bent Over Rows) and it felt much better. I can see in the Deadlift I was going down much too far (about as much as I do in Squats- butt almost touching heels), and my back was far too vertical. Esentially I was doing squat-like Deadlifts.

One thing I still can't do like the vids is to have the bar touch my shin as I go up. It just doesn't feel right; I have to pull the bar in while pulling up on it at the same time, which is awkward.

I don't know if this is related, but I am using regular 25 lb. weights, not the larger (specialized?) ones I see in the vids (I lift at home with my own set). They are 11" in diameter, so the axis of the bar is 5.5" above the mat; so, I have to reach farther down to grip the bar.

One thing I am doing right, Crusher....I lift using water sports shoes, which have almost no sole!

Cruncher Block
04-17-10, 20:51
I don't know if this is related, but I am using regular 25 lb. weights, not the larger (specialized?) ones I see in the vids (I lift at home with my own set). They are 11" in diameter, so the axis of the bar is 5.5" above the mat; so, I have to reach farther down to grip the bar.



I think that matters a lot, especially if you're trying to get a good idea of your max lift. Those few inches are a whole different world for the muscles.

I'm not a certified trainer -- just a guy who likes to lift -- but I think it's good for your overall strength and flexibility to use the 25 lb. weights. If you get a chance to lift with the olympic-sized plates, you might be pleased with the results. I also wouldn't compare the weight you're lifting with the 25s to what other people are moving with olympic 45s and 100s. Your version is a lot harder. I tip my cap to you for doing deadlifts like that.

SevenSixTwo
04-26-10, 16:17
If you were to look at the numbers for elite power lifters, you will generally find their DL is higher then their squat numbers. Not true 100% of the time, but that's normally what you would see.

On top of that a squat suit helps a lot more with squatting than a deadlifting suit helps with deadlifting. Right now my squat is hovering around 310lbs while my deadlift is right at 405, and mechanically I am not built for deadlifting (long legs and torso with averdage arm length and medium hand size). Mechanically you should have more leverage in a deadlift, but your anthropometry will either help or hinder that, same with the squat.

As far as back squat/front squat they both work your lower body, but in very different ways. While they both engage the abdomen and lower back muscles to varying degrees, the front squat is primarily a quad dominant excersize while a back squat (if done properly) should hit your glute/hamstrings more.

A great reference to have around for any and all strength lifting is "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore. Best book for beginners when it comes to barbell lifts

SevenSixTwo
04-26-10, 16:21
Thanks for the vid and advice, guys! I just did my workout (Squats, Deadlifts, Lunges, Bent Over Rows) and it felt much better. I can see in the Deadlift I was going down much too far (about as much as I do in Squats- butt almost touching heels), and my back was far too vertical. Esentially I was doing squat-like Deadlifts.

One thing I still can't do like the vids is to have the bar touch my shin as I go up. It just doesn't feel right; I have to pull the bar in while pulling up on it at the same time, which is awkward.

I don't know if this is related, but I am using regular 25 lb. weights, not the larger (specialized?) ones I see in the vids (I lift at home with my own set). They are 11" in diameter, so the axis of the bar is 5.5" above the mat; so, I have to reach farther down to grip the bar.

One thing I am doing right, Crusher....I lift using water sports shoes, which have almost no sole!

You need to pull the bar into your legs as you lift. Don't scrape the skin off of your legs if you can help it, but pulling the bar into you not only works your lats, it also shortens the distance the weight is from your hips (better for your lower back). Trust me.

As far as shoes, if Chucks are good enough for Louie Simmons and Westside Barbell, they are good enough for anybody! I am sure your water sports shoes are working, and that is great, but try lifting in Churcks. It'll make you feel all elite!:D

fitM4
04-26-10, 22:03
I've been a strength and conditioning specialist for 12 years. I've worked with thousands of athletes of all sports, at all levels. If both are done with perfect technique, which is the only way you can compare, you can deadlift more than you can squat. Especially with beginning lifters, because it's an easier lift to teach.

fitM4
04-26-10, 22:08
Also, only use a weight belt when you lift 90% of your 1rm or higher. If not, your core will always rely on the belt and not get strong on it's own.

wild_wild_wes
04-26-10, 22:32
I don't have a belt. How important?

fitM4
04-26-10, 22:50
You only need a belt if you're going to lift 90% or your 1 rep max, which would be rare if you're trying to get into shape. The "tactical" athletes that I train use higher reps lower weight most of the time. We will lift heavy occasionally. I don't let them use straps either. I only recommend straps for competetive power lifters because it helps them lift more weight because their grip won't give out. Also, I never let them use knee wraps. Wraps hold the knee cap in and it grinds on the posterior side which is very bad on your knees if used often. Also, due to the elastic energy it allows you to lift more than you're supposed to, which unless competing you don't need to do and it can lead to injury. You won't have these on the playing field or the field of battle to rely on, so we don't use them in the gym. As for your smaller weights, hey use what you got. However, the taller weights are designed for a reason, they're more user friendly and create better power angles for the average size man i guess. But like I said, use what you got.

Wichard20
05-07-10, 10:34
for people looking for informal videos on technique take a look here, http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Video

He also has some books/dvds. I have his starting strength book and he spends pages on just one excercise. About form, problem areas, mechanics, etc.

comprido
05-12-10, 20:46
You only need a belt if you're going to lift 90% or your 1 rep max, which would be rare if you're trying to get into shape. The "tactical" athletes that I train use higher reps lower weight most of the time. We will lift heavy occasionally. I don't let them use straps either. I only recommend straps for competetive power lifters because it helps them lift more weight because their grip won't give out. Also, I never let them use knee wraps. Wraps hold the knee cap in and it grinds on the posterior side which is very bad on your knees if used often. Also, due to the elastic energy it allows you to lift more than you're supposed to, which unless competing you don't need to do and it can lead to injury. You won't have these on the playing field or the field of battle to rely on, so we don't use them in the gym. As for your smaller weights, hey use what you got. However, the taller weights are designed for a reason, they're more user friendly and create better power angles for the average size man i guess. But like I said, use what you got.

Use straps if your grip is limiting how much you pull. Do what you can to get your grip strength on par with rest of your pull, but don't neglect pulling heavy just because your grip can't keep up with your posterior chain.

For folks that have MUCH higher squats than deadlifts, I suggest most probably aren't going to parallel. (Yeah, I'm sure no one will own up to it, but most folks I see in the gym do quarter squats, at best. Don't know why it would be different on this board.) You can't cheat the deadlift.

QuickStrike
05-14-10, 15:05
For folks that have MUCH higher squats than deadlifts, I suggest most probably aren't going to parallel. (Yeah, I'm sure no one will own up to it, but most folks I see in the gym do quarter squats, at best. Don't know why it would be different on this board.) You can't cheat the deadlift.

Some people (me) started squats a couple of years before deadlifting and/or emphasize squats more. So it depends.

Lately my squats has actually gotten worse, while my deads are getting better. Not really sure why?

What's a good hamstring exercise? They may be holding me back.

fz1boxer
05-16-10, 12:44
some days will be better than others especially when you get my age,thats when you start trying to maintain.
it becomes very hard to recoup from heavy squats and dead's
dead/power once per month,squat heavy once per month,squat for reps once per month.
i split up my quad hamstring exercises.
age 52
wgt 200#
max sq 405#
dead(sumo) 430#
no belt no wraps if i cant hang onto it i dont need to be lifting it up

Al U. 5811
05-23-10, 16:27
I don't dead anymore. I had a bad ribcage injury about 3 years ago and it just turned me off to deadlifting. My body just isn't built to do it heavy, long arms and legs with an average torso length.

At my heaviest BW 220lbs. (I'm 5'11"), my best totals were 465 dead, 405 squat, and 335 bench. Not super impressive numbers, but for a 40 y/o dude with a history of hip, knee, and ankle injuries, respectable. I've dropped my BW down to 190-195 range and went back to fight training w/ moderate weights and I actually feel better physically (most of the time). I stick to compound exercises and hit the cardio 4 times a week.(maybe more if you count BJJ class or Thai bag work).

750.356
05-24-10, 19:11
What's a good hamstring exercise? They may be holding me back.

Stiff-legged deadlifts, for sure.

Beware, SLDLs are one of the most misunderstood and improperly done exercises ever. I don't think I've ever seen anyone in real life doing SLDLs with proper form (though I do lift at a pretty 'broski' gym... most common lift I see is squat-rack curls).

Will has a really good vid showing the form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcM06uq8Cr0