View Full Version : Anyone got the 411 on the FBI / Task force raids??
Not really any firm links and all pretty new but the word is FBI along with Terror task forces have conducted MAJOR operations in Michigan last night and this morning....if anyone can dig up something concrete, it looks like it will be a quite a ride if this is all true.
Raids have now been comfirmed in the following states:
Michigan
Ohio
Illinois
clickclack
03-28-10, 13:54
i heard they were militia raids
woodandsteel
03-28-10, 13:56
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/?test=latestnews
Was this what you were referring to?
From chatter on another site....you can add Alabama to the confirmed raid list.
Why would you sell pipe bombs.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xczA5x3_Vuw/SrPaO7SEzCI/AAAAAAAAARY/15KLuCEnKi4/s400/weird+facepalm.jpg
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/?test=latestnews
Was this what you were referring to?
One of them but when it first came out it was more like a possible waco deal unfolding. Who knows what's really up but Hopefully they are all tied to the same pipebomb sales but there are other uncomfirmed rumors of suspected raids in following states:
Texas
Oklahoma
California
North Carolina
Colorado
FWIW:
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/1361/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group
Seven arrested in FBI raids linked to Christian militia group
Jennifer Chambers / The Detroit News
At lest seven people, including some from Michigan, have been arrested in raids by a FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana as part of an investigation into an Adrian-based Christian militia group, a person familiar with the matter said.
The suspects are expected to make an initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Detroit on Monday.
On Sunday, the FBI confirmed that federal law enforcement agents were conducting activities in Washtenaw and Lenawee counties over the weekend in connection to Hutaree, a Christian militia group. FBI Special Agent Sandra Berchtold told The Detroit News the federal warrants in the case are under court seal and declined further comment.
Sources have said the FBI was in the second day of raids around the southeastern Michigan city of Adrian that are connected to a militia group, known as the Hutaree, an Adrian-based group whose members describe themselves as Christian soldiers who are preparing for the arrival and battle with the anti-Christ.
WXYZ-TV reports that helicopters were spotted in the sky for much of Saturday night, and agents set up checkpoints throughout the area. Witnesses told the station that it was like a small army had descended on the area. The Department of Homeland Security and the Joint Terrorism Task Force are also involved in the raids.
Mike Lackomar, of Michiganmilitia.com, said both The Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia and the Michiganmilitia.com are not involved in the investigation and have not been contacted by federal authorities.
Lackomar said he heard from other militia members that the FBI targeted the Hutaree after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.
"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.
Lackomar said he was told there were five arrests Saturday and another five early Sunday. The FBI declined to comment.
One of the Hutaree members called the Michigan militia for assistance Saturday after federal agents had already began their raid, Lackomar said, but the militia member -- who was of Islamic decent and had heard about the threats -- declined to offer help.
"They are more of survivalist group and in an emergency they withdraw and stand their ground. They are actively training to be alongside Jesus," he said.
David Shepardson contributed to this report. jchambers@detnews.com (734) 462-2289
A quick Google search of "Hutaree" reveals some top notch training footage, set to awesome music (ok, not really) uploaded circa '07:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apmn9xMxiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR3rnWN32g
:p :D
A quick Google search of "Hutaree" reveals some top notch training footage, set to awesome music (ok, not really) uploaded circa '07:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apmn9xMxiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR3rnWN32g
:p :D
I always find it amazing that so many freaks find enough like minded freaks to indulge their fantasies... Mind boggling.
I always find it amazing that so many freaks find enough like minded freaks to indulge their fantasies... Mind boggling.
it was an amusing video, but do we know they're "freaks?" networking local tactically-minded people cannot, absolutely cannot, be a bad thing.
i'd just be way too embarrassed to every get THAT roll-playish about it.
geminidglocker
03-28-10, 15:56
A quick Google search of "Hutaree" reveals some top notch training footage, set to awesome music (ok, not really) uploaded circa '07:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apmn9xMxiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR3rnWN32g
:p :D
That was great! Did you notice they bring their Dogs to train with them?
...
I'm surprised this forum is being so negative against these people.
A little airsoftish, sure. But they're still doing good in my mind.
theblackknight
03-28-10, 16:20
OMG:D
I swear donning boonie covers makes you instantly looney.
Notice they employ smoke simply to emerge FROM it, not to conceal movement. I think these guys need a special label, I shall rate them Tier 0!
theblackknight
03-28-10, 16:22
...
I'm surprised this forum is being so negative against these people.
A little airsoftish, sure. But they're still doing good in my mind.
Those peels they did after the contact left were sweet!
kaiservontexas
03-28-10, 16:29
it was an amusing video, but do we know they're "freaks?" networking local tactically-minded people cannot, absolutely cannot, be a bad thing.
i'd just be way too embarrassed to every get THAT roll-playish about it.
Yep, we are always talking about being prepared for emergencies, and when some group does their best it becomes a joke. I would hope when I am doing something wrong that I am corrected by the more experienced and professional.
It's still early. The underlined sections are rather ironic IMO.
http://detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group=
At least seven people, including some from Michigan, have been arrested in raids by a FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana as part of an investigation into an Adrian-based Christian militia group, a person familiar with the matter said.
The suspects are expected to make an initial appearance in U.S. District Court in Detroit on Monday.
On Sunday, the FBI confirmed that federal law enforcement agents were conducting activities in Washtenaw and Lenawee counties over the weekend in connection to Hutaree, a Christian militia group. FBI Special Agent Sandra Berchtold told The Detroit News the federal warrants in the case are under court seal and declined further comment.
Sources have said the FBI was in the second day of raids around the southeastern Michigan city of Adrian that are connected to a militia group, known as the Hutaree, an Adrian-based group whose members describe themselves as Christian soldiers preparing for the arrival and battle with the anti-Christ.
WXYZ-TV reports that helicopters were spotted in the sky for much of Saturday night, and agents set up checkpoints throughout the area. Witnesses told the station that it was like a small army had descended on the area. The Department of Homeland Security and the Joint Terrorism Task Force are also involved in the raids.
Mike Lackomar, of Michiganmilitia.com, said both The Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia and the Michiganmilitia.com were not a part of the raid.
Lackomar said he heard from other militia members that the FBI targeted the Hutaree after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.
"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.
Lackomar said he was told there were five arrests Saturday and another five early Sunday. The FBI declined to comment.
One of the Hutaree members called a Michigan militia leader for assistance Saturday after federal agents had already began their raid, Lackomar said, but the militia member -- who is of Islamic decent and had heard about the threats -- declined to offer help. That Michigan militia leader is now working with federal officials to provide information on the Hutaree member for the investigation, Lackomar said Sunday.
"They are more of survivalist group and in an emergency they withdraw and stand their ground. They are actively training to be alongside Jesus," he said.
Sources from the Michigan militia community said one of the FBI raids took place Saturday during a wake for a Hutaree member who had died of natural causes. A Hutaree leader was arrested during the wake while at the same time agents were conducting raids at other locations.
The Associated Press is reporting that FBI spokesman Scott Wilson in Cleveland said agents arrested two people Saturday in northwest Ohio. A third arrest was made in Illinois on Sunday, a day after raids in northwest Indiana.
Dawud Walid, executive director of the Council on Islamic-American Relations of Michigan, made an announcement Sunday during the group's 10th anniversary banquet about receiving a call from a network journalist about the alleged threat against Muslims.
"Don't allow this news to scare you away from practicing your faith," said Walid.
Audible gaps were heard throughout the banquet hall when the news was announced. Walid said he will call local authorities about more information on the allegations. He urged local Muslims to recommitt themselves to their faith in light of the accusations.
David Shepardson and Oralandar Brand-Williams contributed to this report.
Well know I know who was responsible for tipping over the trailer on my lawn tractor. :D
Voodoochild
03-28-10, 17:02
2 Thumbs down...worst music ever and as mentioned before the smoke concealment is sketchy at best..
Alpha Sierra
03-28-10, 17:15
Retards. If you are going to go after somebody, do it and just STFU.
A quick Google search of "Hutaree" reveals some top notch training footage, set to awesome music (ok, not really) uploaded circa '07:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apmn9xMxiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR3rnWN32g
:p :D
lol lol lol lol lol LOL LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!! LMAO!!!! AHAHAHAHHA LMFAO!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA lol lol lol lol ahem...hmm... ... LOL... ahem... :cool: Not bad fellas :cool:
Retards. If you are going to go after somebody, do it and just STFU.
wachutak'nbout, willis?
A quick Google search of "Hutaree" reveals some top notch training footage, set to awesome music (ok, not really) uploaded circa '07:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apmn9xMxiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR3rnWN32g
:p :D
Looks like somebody go hold of a Ranger Handbook and didn't understand what they read.
Local media (Detroit News and Free Press) are now linking to some footage shot overnight by a local tv station, and uploaded to Youtube via a user who saved the footage that aired:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyak-E5gTAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJk3TcMRg5E&feature=video_response
OMG helicopters !
QuietShootr
03-28-10, 19:14
......
Littlelebowski
03-28-10, 20:51
...
I'm surprised this forum is being so negative against these people.
A little airsoftish, sure. But they're still doing good in my mind.
You're kidding, right?
I'm sure that raids are being conducted on all of those who preach the death of Christians as we speak.
pilotguyo540
03-29-10, 02:10
Another waco? Good question. It seems odd that they would raid these guys now. Jesus doesn't appear to be coming anytime soon. From the responses given about the training vids, these guys are not much of a threat to the establishment. Jihad is here and more urgent imho than these guys. This appears a to be a political move. With creative imvestigation and loose vocabulary, we could technically be labled a militia and subject to the same raids. A bit of a stretch, but not too much so. This seems more like equal opportunity than a legit anti terror raid.
I'm sure that raids are being conducted on all of those who preach the death of Christians as we speak.
Like these scumbags.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOLGLkUhhM
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-10, 09:55
From CNN:
The FBI would disclose no details of the raids. The law enforcement source told CNN the arrests were unrelated to any terrorist plot. The source would not confirm Hutaree members were among those arrested, but said the suspects were not planning attacks against government targets and the raids were unrelated to recent threats against members of Congress.
Let's see what the charges are, I assume they are weapon related and not just 'threat' or 'hate speach' related.
It seems like when the dems are in power, the feds go into hyper anti-(I can't think of the right term- they want to say fundamentalist christian, white power, anti-gov, or right wing - but I don't think one term fits it).
Make nice with the SLPC and stay off their bad-guy list or you might get a visit too.
Call me back when these guys start mixing ANFO in a hotel bathroom or taking flight lessons.
Mauser KAR98K
03-29-10, 10:21
It was reported on FOX news this morning that they were plotting to kill LEO's with IED's, and would later show up at the funerals and begin a wholesale slaughter. If this tid-bit is true, these guys just went to my shit list.
A 21 year old is on the run and being pursued.
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 10:32
It was reported on FOX news this morning that they were plotting to kill LEO's with IED's, and would later show up at the funerals and begin a wholesale slaughter. If this tid-bit is true, these guys just went to my shit list.
A 21 year old is on the run and being pursued.
May be true but I wouldn't put anything past a democrat ran dept of justice. At Waco they said they were child molestors, drug users, had grenades, etc. For their own safety the children were burned alive.....:rolleyes:
Remember Eric Holder was one of the top dogs dealing with Waco. I doubt he has lost his anti-christian "militia" touch, and the timing is also curious considering last week the dems were all crying about death threats from the evil right wing.
It was reported on FOX news this morning that they were plotting to kill LEO's with IED's, and would later show up at the funerals and begin a wholesale slaughter. If this tid-bit is true, these guys just went to my shit list.
A 21 year old is on the run and being pursued.
The IED info is showing up in a number of sources. ATFE involvement would seem to be routine -- if there's anything to the IED part. . There 's a pattern of Charlie Manson Helter-Skelter trigger-a-massive- uprising fantasy as well.
NCPatrolAR
03-29-10, 11:12
I'll remind everyone that M4C is tinfoil free. Keep this in mind when posting
A quick Google search of "Hutaree" reveals some top notch training footage, set to awesome music (ok, not really) uploaded circa '07:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apmn9xMxiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhR3rnWN32g
:p :D
I don't think its paintball that they are playing.... Any insight to why these folks do what they do? It seems a bit much to me... Who do they plan on fighting and why?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-10, 11:25
I'll remind everyone that M4C is tinfoil free. Keep this in mind when posting
Common, this is the 21st century, its all aluminim foil now.
I read a report where they are being charged with teaching or instructing about explosives. I've never heard of this charge, what does it mean?
The plan reminds of those two kids in Arkansas that pulled the fire alarm at the school and then shot the kids as they stood outside.
If God tells you the end-times are coming, wait for written confirmation before getting all Rambo.
Sounds like bad, goofy acting people looking to do serious harm to LEO's. If it's true, not only are they offensive retards, but they are just the type that fuel the argument that everyone is a potential terrorist and muslims should be looked upon equally in that regard.
Stupid motherfu*kers actions are extremely counterproductive to their overall cause.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-10, 12:12
Sounds like bad, goofy acting people looking to do serious harm to LEO's. If it's true, not only are they offensive retards, but they are just the type that fuel the argument that everyone is a potential terrorist and muslims should be looked upon equally in that regard.
Stupid motherfu*kers actions are extremely counterproductive to their overall cause.
White Supremacists rarely make good evidence for their cause.
Suspects were arraigned this morning:
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100329/METRO/3290381/Indictment--Militia-members-sought-to--levy-war--against-U.S.
Indictment PDF doc:
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/detnews/2010/pdf/0329stone.pdf
Sounds like bad, goofy acting people looking to do serious harm to LEO's. If it's true, not only are they offensive retards, but they are just the type that fuel the argument that everyone is a potential terrorist and muslims should be looked upon equally in that regard.
Agreed. This is the pointy end of the stick in regards to my argument earlier about the supposed Muslim militia you and I disagreed on briefly last week.
I held off on commenting on this thread until this morning because last night I did not see any information about why the raid had taken place and it all seemed like hearsay and speculation. The media is now saying that this group was actively pursuing the production of IEDs, but the language in the FBI release that really caught my attention was something along the lines of "the leader contacted an outside party with plans to make an IED he had obtained online." That to me seems like the key stone of this entire case.
What bothers me, as I mentioned last week, is the language being used in relationship to their gun ownership, and the ownership of other groups in the country. It implies that either there are laws in place to charge people with a crime if they practice group tactics, or that while there may not be a law, they are attempting to assert that there should be.
Agreed. This is the pointy end of the stick in regards to my argument earlier about the supposed Muslim militia you and I disagreed on briefly last week.
I held off on commenting on this thread until this morning because last night I did not see any information about why the raid had taken place and it all seemed like hearsay and speculation. The media is now saying that this group was actively pursuing the production of IEDs, but the language in the FBI release that really caught my attention was something along the lines of "the leader contacted an outside party with plans to make an IED he had obtained online." That to me seems like the key stone of this entire case.
What bothers me, as I mentioned last week, is the language being used in relationship to their gun ownership, and the ownership of other groups in the country. It implies that either there are laws in place to charge people with a crime if they practice group tactics, or that while there may not be a law, they are attempting to assert that there should be.
The gun ownership and training were not the problem. The use and possession of firearms while committing a federal crime, i.e., seditious conspiracy, is their problem.
******Warning: Playing Devils Advocate******
So your saying don't talk bad about Democrats and taking this country back while in possession of a firearm?
******Warning: Playing Devils Advocate******
So your saying don't talk bad about Democrats and taking this country back while in possession of a firearm?
How do you derive that scenario? They are accused of plotting mass murder and there is supposed to be evidence to back it up.
How do you derive that scenario? They are accused of plotting mass murder and there is supposed to be evidence to back it up.
Precisely. Assuming the DOJ can prove the allegations contained in the indictment, with which they already satisfied a Grand Jury, this is hardly a matter of "talking badly of Democrats."
How do you derive that scenario? They are accused of plotting mass murder and there is supposed to be evidence to back it up.
I was picking the lowest common denominator simply to pose the question of what constitutes conspiracy. Obviously there is information on these guys. It was released this morning, as we have all seen.
What bothers me, as I mentioned last week, is the language being used in relationship to their gun ownership, and the ownership of other groups in the country. It implies that either there are laws in place to charge people with a crime if they practice group tactics, or that while there may not be a law, they are attempting to assert that there should be.
In fairness, they did provide context for this training and described the unlawful purposes and goals of it - which is what makes the difference. It's sort of like having a toolbox with a crowbar, a scredriver, etc. It's just a toolbox in the hands of one man, but in the hands of a man sneaking around your backdoor at 3am, they're "burglarous tools" in the eyes of the law.
Many states, even "gun friendly" ones, have statutes that prohibit group training with firearms for nefarious purposes. I think some of them are poorly drafted and could be abused to make a case against legitimate training given the right facts - but in this case, I don't see that it's a big deal.
I frankly have a much bigger beef with trying to call a pipe bomb a "weapon of mass destruction." They've perverted that term down to the point that it's practically meaningless. In my mind, if it doesn't have the realistic potential to kill everyone across at least several city blocks in one fell swoop, it's not a "weapon of mass destruction."
In fairness, they did provide context for this training and described the unlawful purposes and goals of it - which is what makes the difference. It's sort of like having a toolbox with a crowbar, a scredriver, etc. It's just a toolbox in the hands of one man, but in the hands of a man sneaking around your backdoor at 3am, they're "burglarous tools" in the eyes of the law.
Many states, even "gun friendly" ones, have statutes that prohibit group training with firearms for nefarious purposes. I think some of them are poorly drafted and could be abused to make a case against legitimate training given the right facts - but in this case, I don't see that it's a big deal.
I frankly have a much bigger beef with trying to call a pipe bomb a "weapon of mass destruction." They've perverted that term down to the point that it's practically meaningless. In my mind, if it doesn't have the realistic potential to kill everyone across at least several city blocks in one fell swoop, it's not a "weapon of mass destruction."
Thank you for taking the time to write this, and to do so in such a rational and non-reactionary way. It is this very point that I am curious about, and I appreciate your words.
I was picking the lowest common denominator simply to pose the question of what constitutes conspiracy. Obviously there is information on these guys. It was released this morning, as we have all seen.
I see. Then what is the point of conjuring up worst case or fictional scenarios here in this particular discussion? Does it not divert us from relevant fact?
Not trying to start with you, I honestly just don't get your frame of logic. No big deal though, moving on.
For those of us to whom the "Anarchist" raids around the time of the RNC, was local news. .. . we remember an Anarchist that was pre-emptively arrested for bottling pee for the purpose of throwwing at cops. . . nevermind that he was iving in an "unofficial loft" over a garage, that lacked plumbing. And we remember a undercover fed who was the only one of the Anarchists to have used the word "pipe bombs and molotov cocktails" thereafter several more preemptive arrests were made citing "Anarchists talking about pipe bombs and molotov cocktails" in the presence of common household items scattered about the home and garage (that is to say constructive intent was . . . a stretch).
I am skeptical. Won't say these folks with their "gobble-dee-gook" rank structure and cutting edge training techniques were all straight A students or entirely right in the head. . . . but I am skeptical that this isn't just a shot across the bow for a whole bunch of folks who are pretty peeved with Capitol Hill right now. Not saying it is or isn't anything. . . . just that I am REALLY skeptical of both sides & have only heard one side's spin.
pilotguyo540
03-29-10, 14:55
For those of us to whom the "Anarchist" raids around the time of the RNC, was local news. .. . we remember an Anarchist that was pre-emptively arrested for bottling pee for the purpose of throwwing at cops. . . nevermind that he was iving in an "unofficial loft" over a garage, that lacked plumbing. And we remember a undercover fed who was the only one of the Anarchists to have used the word "pipe bombs and molotov cocktails" thereafter several more preemptive arrests were made citing "Anarchists talking about pipe bombs and molotov cocktails" in the presence of common household items scattered about the home and garage (that is to say constructive intent was . . . a stretch).
I am skeptical. Won't say these folks with their "gobble-dee-gook" rank structure and cutting edge training techniques were all straight A students or entirely right in the head. . . . but I am skeptical that this isn't just a shot across the bow for a whole bunch of folks who are pretty peeved with Capitol Hill right now. Not saying it is or isn't anything. . . . just that I am REALLY skeptical of both sides & have only heard one side's spin.
I totally agree. If these guys were going to blow up cops, fine. Hang 'em high and I will bring rope. I don't see the pieces falling right. I don't have all of the facts, but the cover story does not fit well. If these guys were religously motivated and read the rapture books too many times, the MONTH would have to be different. The religouz zealot would not go after the local leo, they would go after their antichrist. To go after the leo community would kill good people (or not, depending on the level of zealotry) and draw undue attention, further complicating their objective.
Just my theory.
30 cal slut
03-29-10, 16:39
Sounds like bad, goofy acting people looking to do serious harm to LEO's.
That's how I read it ... and it goes against everything that is right in this world.
I see. Then what is the point of conjuring up worst case or fictional scenarios here in this particular discussion? Does it not divert us from relevant fact?
Not trying to start with you, I honestly just don't get your frame of logic. No big deal though, moving on.
Don't move on every time you get the last word man, that's not what a discussion is all about. Dbrowne explained a lot of what I was curious about. Malicious intent, or as he stated Nefarious means, change the legality of the possession of a tool.
The reason for me posting the lowest common denominator in this particular discussion is that this entire case, while possibly relevant, is like many before it, in that it brings up the question of what constitutes "malicious intent".
QuietShootr
03-29-10, 16:58
I think it's interesting how many times the story has changed.
Alpha Sierra
03-29-10, 17:13
The gun ownership and training were not the problem. The use and possession of firearms while committing a federal crime, i.e., seditious conspiracy, is their problem.
I am not siding with these people.
But point to ponder: weren't Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, etc seditious conspirators too?
I frankly have a much bigger beef with trying to call a pipe bomb a "weapon of mass destruction." They've perverted that term down to the point that it's practically meaningless. In my mind, if it doesn't have the realistic potential to kill everyone across at least several city blocks in one fell swoop, it's not a "weapon of mass destruction."
That's what stood out to me as well. I suppose that Bush et al. was right and Saddam had WMD in exponential amounts.
What bothers me, as I mentioned last week, is the language being used in relationship to their gun ownership, and the ownership of other groups in the country. It implies that either there are laws in place to charge people with a crime if they practice group tactics, or that while there may not be a law, they are attempting to assert that there should be.
I agree to the extent that it could be perceived that any "anti-government extremist organization" has an intent of violence against the local, state or federal appartus. This particular case, if correct as it appears to be, has the effect of softening up the populace to the agressive prosecution of other organized activities that are lawful. Their sedition hurts us all.
Anyone actually following the news on this?
I wait with baited breath to hear the Defense's side of this. Hopefully the will have a press release soon.
For now, we only have the Prosecution's side of the story. It would seem that their 'plan' was to kill a local LEO, then IED the funeral procession.
Remember, the key word in citizen's militia is 'citizen.'
Now, if anyone really wants to break out the Reynold's Wrap we could take about the FLIR footage from Waco, the Congressional 'hearings' on Ruby Ridge, or how McVeigh's defense team wanted to offer additional co-conspirators but the Federal judge would not allow it into evidence.
I am not siding with these people.
But point to ponder: weren't Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, etc seditious conspirators too?
Yep. And they'd have been hanged dead if the British had caught them.
That's about where the comparison ends.
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 23:23
Yep. And they'd have been hanged dead if the British had caught them.
That's about where the comparison ends.
Why? It appears we traded one tyrant for another.
I love our country but I'm not under the delusion whatever the gov is just, and every person who prepares to fight against the gov is automatically a nut. With the people in charge right now their definition of terrorist includes a pretty broad brush, and the last time a democrat was in office (with Eric Holder in the DOJ, then, too) Ruby Ridge, and Waco occurred.
Just seems like a lot of people who ought to know better automatically give the gov a pass when it comes to "militias" or other people labeled with some catch phrase. Everyone who doesn't toe the line the gov sets for us is automatically a nut and should be locked up......then we wonder why we actually have to argue about gun rights, why we have Obama in office, and why our country has turned socialist. If its not them (the militias), then its going to be us, or whoever is next in line to get the axe.
Why? It appears we traded one tyrant for another.
You know what makes me absolutely disgusted about the American populace? Statements like above. Your so close to realizing the realities of the federal government, then you get caught up on friggen partisanship. The left does the exact same thing. There are so many forward thinking people on both the left and the right that in all reality actually agree on about 75% of the issues, but they transfer all of their frustration on to "the other side", as if somehow it wasn't until Bush, or Obama got into office that all of the problems in this country started happening.
The smartest thing the federal politicians did was start focusing on hot button issues in order to convince us that they were some how different from one another.
To use just the last three presidents: Clinton paved the way for Bush, Bush for Obama. They are all equally guilty of allowing our nation to slide into the state it's in. I want to smack some of the tea baggers when they blame Obama for everything. It's like they forgot the last six months of Bush's presidency. Most likely though they didn't even pay attention because they were having wet dreams about Palin, and talking bad about Clinton's cleavage...
Sometimes I think my nations complete lack of logic, and memory make us guilty of our realities, and honestly we have no one to blame but ourselves.
If McCain and Palin were in office you would see a different side of the exact same coin, and all of the bail outs, and stimulus would still be there. Health Care? Maybe not, but there would be some other daemon in the room of equally destructive force.
Two more cents on this....
Anyone want to take bets on how long before this thread is locked? I give it another page.
Anyone want to play game? Before posting, state if you are a govt employee or not. I have a feeling that this will shade the answers.
People! Read the eff'in indictment!!!!! It isn't that hard to understand. It breaks down each of the alleged crimes, the elements of those crimes, and then lays out what these payasos did to violate the law, element by element.
These guys are charged with sedition. Do you know how long it has been seen a group of Americans has been charged with this? This is death penalty stuff. This is serious. This isn't a group of misunderstood patriots. These are domestic terrorists and I for one am looking forward to seeing them swing.
Shadow1198
03-30-10, 02:11
Not a government employee. Totally pro American government. Unfortunately our current form of government is not quite as it was originally intended, and is not working properly. There are plenty of ways to correct this without killing people. First step, fire a LOT of people. Next step, impose strict term limits. Who knows where to go from there, but the main problem is a lack of education IMO.
The media has been strangely silent about this. The liberals are usually waiting around the newsstand just salivating for a good excuse to fillet anything associated with "the right", conservatives, or pretty much anyone that aren't on their side. You would think they would be all over this. I think that's a bit odd that they aren't, but whatever.
Regardless of what the facts are, who did what, etc, there is one thing that concerns me. I've noticed lately a recurring theme of people (unrelated to this but, people in general) being charged with, or at least made to sound that way in the media, participating in "military-style training". Even though there is no actual law against that, save for training specifically for the intended purpose of destroying the government. The thing that concerns me is, many of us here participate in plenty of training that could be deemed "military-style". Seems to me that, should one of us happen to disagree with some of the things the government is doing or has done (Healthcare bill for example), and if we piss off the wrong people, I could see such training being used as an excuse to basically bypass the law and treat us as an "enemy combatant" or something similar. Maybe I'm over-thinking it but, I don't put it past some A-hole politician with an agenda.
I read the indictment. I'd still like to see the actual proof. I don't put it past those individuals to have done everything claimed but, the government just does not have a history of truthfulness and trustworthiness. Show me some pics of seized IED's. Show me some sketches of ambush plans, etc. I will totally believe it, I just like tangible stuff. There were a lot of claims and charges thrown around during the whole Branch Davidian fiasco, many of which proved to be false and some of which proved during the congressional hearings to be falsified claims (ATF LIED about possibility of drug/meth lab so they could "legally" access TX National Guard helicopters for the operation). Anyways, set all the craziness aside. All that matters is cold, hard, facts.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-10, 03:09
Sedition to me is like 'hate crimes'. Just charge people with the simple crimes they have commited and be done with it. If they were trully dangerous, they should get a lot of counts with some nice sentences. Making sure they don't get paroled keeps them locked up for a long time. If you can't charge, convict and get long sentences for the base crimes, it wasn't much of a sedition in the first place. Sedition just has such a bad history attached to it.
I understand people concerns about training, but I'm not worried about it in a legal sense. I'm more concerned that your Air America listening neighbor gets all spun up and knows you have guns and train (IDPA, USPSA, classes) once a month and you talk about being prepared for the national events (just like homeland security says we should be) and starts Stasi-ing your ass to the local PD or other nosy neighbors.
On closed threads, I wonder who has the most posts in threads that were eventually closed.
Moar:
"Training in the Raining"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0kSdDZIgM&feature=related
"Hutaree Z-01"
Love the "ninja" tree stand dismount in the beginning of this vid :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiUtGgxyibc&feature=related
Moar:
"Training in the Raining"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0kSdDZIgM&feature=related
"Hutaree Z-01"
Love the "ninja" tree stand dismount in the beginning of this vid :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiUtGgxyibc&feature=related
I don't get it...... I honestly don't get it.....
Moar:
"Training in the Raining"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0kSdDZIgM&feature=related
About 1:45 is probably the greatest so far.
NCPatrolAR
03-30-10, 08:29
Moar:
"Training in the Raining"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0kSdDZIgM&feature=related
"Hutaree Z-01"
Love the "ninja" tree stand dismount in the beginning of this vid :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiUtGgxyibc&feature=related
Nice clear ponchos and non-camo'ed hands
Jeezy petes, check out their website. These yokels say that Hutaree means "Christian Soldier." Which I'm it does, provided that the biblical language in question is "Gibberish."
And the manifesto... Holy mother of god, the manifesto!
I don't want to be dhimmi to the muslims, but I sure as hell don't want to be dhimmi to these whackadoos. Maybe all these arrests act as an inroad for these poor people to get the psychiatric help they obviously, desperately need.
Anyone want to play game? Before posting, state if you are a govt employee or not. I have a feeling that this will shade the answers.
Think so do you? For example please tell us then...I am not a government employee, what category might you have me stereotyped into based upon my responses?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-10, 08:41
About 1:45 is probably the greatest so far.
Gay square dancing with rifles.
I wonder what kind of arguements God and Jesus get into over these guys.
"They are your followers!"
"You made them!"
As The Holy Ghost sits there and wishes they would just get along, while secretly being jelous that no one ever started a cult about him.
ForTehNguyen
03-30-10, 08:44
Fort Hood shooter wasnt called a terrorist despite actually killing people shouting Allah Akbar, but these guys are terrorists that had WMDs (didnt know pipe bombs were WMDs).
Not defending these guys I have not seen the evidence but how various terms are applied inconsistently is annoying. BTW it doesnt take much for a grand jury to indict, you cant even show them the evidence, just talk about the type of evidence you have and why it should be a trial. I wouldnt base the strength of evidence on a GJ indictment. However if these allegations turn out to be true then they need to be punished.
*hides magpul dynamic, tactical arms, tactical impact DVDs*
Belmont31R
03-30-10, 08:57
You know what makes me absolutely disgusted about the American populace? Statements like above. Your so close to realizing the realities of the federal government, then you get caught up on friggen partisanship. The left does the exact same thing. There are so many forward thinking people on both the left and the right that in all reality actually agree on about 75% of the issues, but they transfer all of their frustration on to "the other side", as if somehow it wasn't until Bush, or Obama got into office that all of the problems in this country started happening.
The smartest thing the federal politicians did was start focusing on hot button issues in order to convince us that they were some how different from one another.
To use just the last three presidents: Clinton paved the way for Bush, Bush for Obama. They are all equally guilty of allowing our nation to slide into the state it's in. I want to smack some of the tea baggers when they blame Obama for everything. It's like they forgot the last six months of Bush's presidency. Most likely though they didn't even pay attention because they were having wet dreams about Palin, and talking bad about Clinton's cleavage...
Sometimes I think my nations complete lack of logic, and memory make us guilty of our realities, and honestly we have no one to blame but ourselves.
If McCain and Palin were in office you would see a different side of the exact same coin, and all of the bail outs, and stimulus would still be there. Health Care? Maybe not, but there would be some other daemon in the room of equally destructive force.
I agree. I was talking about one tyrannical government for another. Not about who is in charge RIGHT NOW.
NCPatrolAR
03-30-10, 08:59
Fort Hood shooter wasnt called a terrorist despite actually killing people shouting Allah Akbar
He shouldn't be labeled a terrorist, IMO, because he attacked military members. The traditional definition of terrorism cites the need for attacks to occurr against civilians.
but these guys are terrorists that had WMDs (didnt know pipe bombs were WMDs).
don't confuse the media's use of WMD with how it's been legally defined for a number of years.
Littlelebowski
03-30-10, 09:05
Gotta agree with Stickman. Where is the outcry over the Muslim training camps?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-10, 09:14
Gotta agree with Stickman. Where is the outcry over the Muslim training camps?
They are probably harder to infiltrate with informants.
Moar:
"Training in the Raining"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0kSdDZIgM&feature=related
"Hutaree Z-01"
Love the "ninja" tree stand dismount in the beginning of this vid :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiUtGgxyibc&feature=related
You cant fix stupid.... The jig at 1:45 was pretty fancy though...
Anyone want to play game? Before posting, state if you are a govt employee or not. I have a feeling that this will shade the answers.
What does this have to do with anything? Do you believe because people are payed to do a job for .gov that they lose their compass?
I like games... NO. What shade am I?
QuietShootr
03-30-10, 09:29
People! Read the eff'in indictment!!!!! It isn't that hard to understand. It breaks down each of the alleged crimes, the elements of those crimes, and then lays out what these payasos did to violate the law, element by element.
These guys are charged with sedition. Do you know how long it has been seen a group of Americans has been charged with this? This is death penalty stuff. This is serious. This isn't a group of misunderstood patriots. These are domestic terrorists and I for one am looking forward to seeing them swing.
If I wrote up a charge sheet saying that kmrtnsn was a child pornographer, meth manufacturer, and general all-around horse ****er, and managed to get a grand jury indictment based on the persuasiveness of my language, would that make all those charges true?
If I were in power and had a group of people I wanted to make an example of, what characteristics might I want to attribute to them to ensure that nobody would insist on defending them properly?
Just some food for thought.
Thanks for posting the Z-01 video. I have been trying really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt & disuade folks from throwing them under the bus . . .
. . . but when they burned the U.N. flag (and I am all over that :) ) and then ran something other than the Stars and Stripes up the pole, well that is where they deeply offended me. That is a no fly zone, you just don't claim to be a patriot and run something "else" up the pole. I just went from skeptic (of the feds) to "let 'em swing".
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-10, 10:09
If I wrote up a charge sheet saying that kmrtnsn was a child pornographer, meth manufacturer, and general all-around horse ****er, and managed to get a grand jury indictment based on the persuasiveness of my language, would that make all those charges true?
Better a horse ****er than a horse ****ee.
If I wrote up a charge sheet saying that kmrtnsn was a child pornographer, meth manufacturer, and general all-around horse ****er, and managed to get a grand jury indictment based on the persuasiveness of my language, would that make all those charges true?
If I were in power and had a group of people I wanted to make an example of, what characteristics might I want to attribute to them to ensure that nobody would insist on defending them properly?
Just some food for thought.
To the best of my knowledge you missed one small element... They present evidence to a GJ it's not just articulation... In your scenario it would be pics of you with the horse...
In this case its more likely a tape recorded conversation about the crazy shit they wanted and PLANNED to do...
Do you believe because people are payed to do a job for .gov that they lose their compass?
yes.
..
yes.
..
Thats a shame... I believe that is a very broad brush you are painting with. Not all people are programable robots. Are there some? Sure, but that can be said about just about any segment of life.
People don't lose their identity (compass, morals etc) because of who prints their check each week...
Bolt_Overide
03-30-10, 10:49
yes.
..
Wow... ignorance is bliss I guess.
Thats a shame... I believe that is a very broad brush you are painting with. Not all people are programable robots. Are there some? Sure, but that can be said about just about any segment of life.
People don't lose their identity (compass, morals etc) because of who prints their check each week...
we're not talking about programmed robots. we're talking about human beings and their loyalty to the hand that feeds them. even if you hate your boss, if you're happy every friday, you'll stand up for that asshole to anyone who threatens him. government employees have times more reason to be loyal then the rest of us.
QuietShootr
03-30-10, 10:54
To the best of my knowledge you missed one small element... They present evidence to a GJ it's not just articulation... In your scenario it would be pics of you with the horse...
In this case its more likely a tape recorded conversation about the crazy shit they wanted and PLANNED to do...
That's not a required element. As Judge Sal Wachtler famously said of grand juries in New York, a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.
I'm not saying these guys AREN'T scumbags...I'm just saying that for a bunch of guys who claim to be free-thinkers and generally pro individual, a bunch of you are pretty quick to believe whatever the .gov says about someone. This is why I think we're ****ed as a nation. The state no longer has to prove your guilt, you have to prove your innocence - and the citizenry are getting to be nearly as bad.
I used to be a charter member of the "Hang 'em High" club until I got some close experience (not me, assholes.) with what the legal system will do to someone once they decide they have a target, and I started researching and seeing the large numbers of "murderers" getting freed from death row based on DNA testing that wasn't available when they were convicted. Even more heinously, in a lot of those cases the state FIGHTS to prevent testing of the evidence, because they've 'solved the case' to their satisfaction (i.e. they have a designated perp, and getting the RIGHT perp isn't as important as HAVING a perp).
All I have to say is, wait until it's you. And the way things are rolling, if you own a gun and/or don't worship at the altar of socialism, and make the mistake of saying that, sooner or later it might BE you.
we're not talking about programmed robots. we're talking about human beings and their loyalty to the hand that feeds them. even if you hate your boss, if you're happy every friday, you'll stand up for that asshole to anyone who threatens him. government employees have times more reason to be loyal then the rest of us.
I just fail to see using all of this logic to defend people who are, by all accounts, looking to do harm to the innocent. Even worse, this in the name of Christ. Unless a police officer is worthy of death just because he is a police officer, there can be no justification.
I don't want any of the morons on my side, as they are no better than their muslim equivalents. And what if there were women and children at the funeral they planned to blow-up after causing?
I just fail to see using all of this logic to defend people who are, by all accounts, looking to do harm to the innocent. Even worse, this in the name of Christ. Unless a police officer is worthy of death just because he is a police officer, there can be no justification.
I don't want any of the morons on my side, as they are no better than their muslim equivalents. And what if there were women and children at the funeral they planned to blow-up after causing?
who am i defending?
who am i defending?
I guess no one. But you and some others seem irritated that they were arrested.
You have also stated that anyone who works for the government has essentially lost their soul. I don't think this is incorrect, I know it is beyond any shadow of a doubt.
I have been burned by the system more than once, as you may have read here. But there were a great many good officers that I dealt with along the way, all of whom I call friends today. Plus I just got my new handgun permit signed off on by the local Chief, who here in NJ could have refused me for any reason he chose.
There is so much more I could say, that's just a current example.
I'm not saying these guys AREN'T scumbags...I'm just saying that for a bunch of guys who claim to be free-thinkers and generally pro individual, a bunch of you are pretty quick to believe whatever the .gov says about someone. This is why I think we're ****ed as a nation. The state no longer has to prove your guilt, you have to prove your innocence - and the citizenry are getting to be nearly as bad.
[...]
All I have to say is, wait until it's you. And the way things are rolling, if you own a gun and/or don't worship at the altar of socialism, and make the mistake of saying that, sooner or later it might BE you.
I couldn't agree more. For all I know, these folks may be complete a-holes. Or they may not. The point is, I'm reserving judgment until the facts are out.
Doesn't the timing seem just a LITTLE convenient, at a time when the "progressives" in the government are trying to distract attention from the health care fiasco, and to label EVERYONE who opposes them as a gun toting, religion spouting, government hating fanatic? Having a handy, very visible arrest of this type helps their cause, doesn't it?
Not saying this is what happened, or that these militia are innocent, but it certainly COULD be. Or it could be a little of BOTH: maybe the militia really is guilty of SOMETHING, but maybe it's ALSO true that the government is sort of hyping this up to serve some particular agenda. That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I'm going to wait until more facts come out--if they ever do.
QuietShootr
03-30-10, 11:43
I couldn't agree more. For all I know, these folks may be complete a-holes. Or they may not. The point is, I'm reserving judgment until the facts are out.
Doesn't the timing seem just a LITTLE convenient, at a time when the "progressives" in the government are trying to distract attention from the health care fiasco, and to label EVERYONE who opposes them as a gun toting, religion spouting, government hating fanatic? Having a handy, very visible arrest of this type helps their cause, doesn't it?
Not saying this is what happened, or that these militia are innocent, but it certainly COULD be. Or it could be a little of BOTH: maybe the militia really is guilty of SOMETHING, but maybe it's ALSO true that the government is sort of hyping this up to serve some particular agenda. That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I'm going to wait until more facts come out--if they ever do.
This is likely the correct answer.
This is likely the correct answer.
Then how do you explain the statements made by family members here:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/
"Stone's ex-wife, Donna Stone, told The Associated Press that her ex-husband also pulled her son, David Brian Stone Jr., into the movement. She said she also helped talk Joshua Stone, who is not her biological son, into surrendering during the standoff.
"It started out as a Christian thing," she said. "You go to church. You pray. You take care of your family. I think David started to take it a little too far."
-----------------
The mother of another defendant, 33-year-old Jacob Ward, told police in Huron, Ohio, last summer that family members took away his two guns -- an AK-47 rifle and a semiautomatic pistol -- because she thought he needed mental health treatment.
These are not the words of the feds. But I am sure someone will say the ex has a motive and the mother and other family members were all loons. It just doesn't look good for them, period.
But if this is in fact a government set-up of some sort, where they are just flat out lying about evidence due to some political pressure, I will be the first to join the angry masses that will surely form. Something just tells me that won't be the case here.
John_Wayne777
03-30-10, 12:24
Gentlemen,
I cannot see this thread ending well for anyone, especially now that we actually have people holding that any sort of government employment actually turns people into a cheerleader for possible oppression.
In the interest of preserving the collegial atmosphere of the site and preventing the discussion from descending to the point where mods/staff are forced to take action against people's account, I am locking this down.
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