View Full Version : 2400 rounds in a BCM 14.5" upper with no lube
Good new article by Mike Pannone
March 19, 2010
Here’s my question for those that subscribe to the direct impingement fouling concept:
I fired 2400 rounds of M193 through a 14.5” M4-type upper receiver from Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) with no lubrication, and without any rifle-caused malfunctions. So; why can I get my direct impingement rifles to repeatedly do things that conventional wisdom says they can’t do?
This article is not a direct impingement vs. piston driven operating system debate and does not discuss piston guns at all. It is specifically dealing with a 14.5”AR-15 upper receiver with .062” gas port that’s as close to a Mil-Spec M4 upper as I could find on the civilian market.
All I have ever asked and required of myself (and others) as a professional is that everything I say or write must be capable of being substantiated. I am asking some questions and giving my opinions, observations, and conclusions based on my own experience and testing.
continues at:
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/
i'll tell you one thing, the m4 is not a unreliable system. with the utterly amazing number of rounds we put through them in the military doing IAD's, with little to no cleaning throughout the weeks of training other then mabye wiping the bolt down and running a bore snake through it. the m4 gas system is a refined system that might have had issues whe it was released originally in vietnam but today's rifle systems are definately reliable and can be even in a high sand enviroment. i have personally put thousands of rounds through m4's running through the desert doing drills and am constantly suprised by how dirty my work gun can be and still run like a sewing machine. but thats just my .02
Its a misleading title when it leaves out that a FZ BCG was used.
Great article. Thanks for posting it up.
Its a misleading title when it leaves out that a FZ BCG was used.
I believe that the standard BCM BCG was used.
Like to see him do same with a middy.
But then who is the fellow who runs a training academy that has a standard BCM middy upper for clients? Never cleans it. What was the last round count? Changed a extractor spring and a bolt!
spamsammich
03-28-10, 18:14
Its a misleading title when it leaves out that a FZ BCG was used.
If I used those rifles or parts for my test, many would say “well those are custom coatings/guns and military guns don’t have that.” For that reason, BCM was kind enough to send me a stock 14.5” It seems like a legit test.
spamsammich
03-28-10, 18:17
Like to see him do same with a middy.
But then who is the fellow who runs a training academy that has a standard BCM middy upper for clients? Never cleans it. What was the last round count? Changed a extractor spring and a bolt!
That's Pat Rogers and his "Filthy 14" BCM carbine.
That's Pat Rogers and his "Filthy 14" BCM carbine.
He doen't clean it but he keeps it wet.
None of this pap is new info. People have been running ARs for thousands of rounds without cleaning them for years.
The whole M4 unreliabilty issue is largely perpetuated by lying companies like LWRC who are trying to sell you overpriced solutions to a mythical problem.
None of this pap is new info. People have been running ARs for thousands of rounds without cleaning them for years.
The whole M4 unreliabilty issue is largely perpetuated by lying companies like LWRC who are trying to sell you overpriced solutions to a mythical problem.
There is a big difference between cleaning them and lubing them. In this case, any residual lube was stripped off, and it was neither cleaned nor lubed.
M4/M16 unreliability myths have been going on since Vietnam, as has the myth that AKs are not accurate. LWRC, POF, or whatever AR piston manufacturer you want to mention don't deserve the blame entirely.
Its a misleading title when it leaves out that a FZ BCG was used.
I believe what causes some confusion is the following paragraph
Recently, I received a milspec equivalent (barrel length/gas port size/gas system length) M4-type upper from Bravo Company USA (BCM) to test my theory that a heavier buffer and spring with enhanced extractor tension would give extraordinary reliability with no lubrication or maintenance whatsoever. I have shot over 2500 rounds with the FailZero kit with EXO Technology coating on four separate occasions with no lubricant, as well as a ceramic coated rifle (to include bolt and bolt carrier group) from Next Generation Arms that currently has 4000 rounds on it without cleaning or lubricant, and also no malfunctions. I have also routinely shot a Noveske N4 14.5”-barreled rifle over 2500 rds with only 6-8 drops of oil every 500-700rds fired without any issues. If I used those rifles or parts for my test, many would say “well those are custom coatings/guns and military guns don’t have that.” For that reason, BCM was kind enough to send me a stock 14.5” upper on which to do the test. Prior to the test I did the following:
1. Remove all visible oil and lubricant from the inside of the upper receiver.
2. Disassemble the bolt carrier group (BCG) and remove all lubricant inside and out
3. Put a Crane O-ring on the existing extractor spring
4. Use a lower receiver with a Sprinco standard Blue spring and an H-3 buffer (I used an H3 because it was close to the DPMS Extra-heavy buffer I use in most of my rifles.
However, as I understand it for this test he specifically used a standard BCM M16 BCG in a standard BCM 14.5" upper, and stripped all visible oil and lube from both prior to the test.
I want to play with buffer, action spring, and ammo variables in mid-length guns and SBRs to see what the magic combination might be. We all hear things like "Wolf runs weak and dirty" but I wonder if there isn't a magic break point where the unlocking is delayed and less of that fouling escapes into the upper but there is still enough pressure to cycle the gun.
I think I just found a use for my BCM standard midlength I was going to sell to fund a lightweight! :D
shooter521
03-30-10, 11:44
That's Pat Rogers and his "Filthy 14" BCM carbine.
According to Pat, it started having some reliability issues at about 26,460 rounds, at which time it was given a "quick clean" (its first!) which did not rectify the problem, so the BCG was replaced.
As of 3/21, Filthy 14 has 31,675 rounds through it and is in need of an extractor replacement on the "new" bolt (which now has about 5200 rounds on it).
ForTehNguyen
03-30-10, 14:33
really interesting article, thanks
I love my middys more now :D
Just read this as it came with my BCM upper...
This barrel has never been changed? No key-holing issues reported? Yet another misnomer I have been carrying around due to gun show acquired intel; the barrel life of an M4 is 15000 rounds before its "worthless."
Littlelebowski
11-01-10, 10:44
I want to play with buffer, action spring, and ammo variables in mid-length guns and SBRs to see what the magic combination might be. We all hear things like "Wolf runs weak and dirty" but I wonder if there isn't a magic break point where the unlocking is delayed and less of that fouling escapes into the upper but there is still enough pressure to cycle the gun.
I think I just found a use for my BCM standard midlength I was going to sell to fund a lightweight! :D
Looking forward to the writeup; great idea, Rob.
The whole M4 unreliabilty issue is largely perpetuated by lying companies like LWRC who are trying to sell you overpriced solutions to a mythical problem.
Wow, that is pretty harsh commentary. I don't have a dog in your fight, but claiming a weapon runs cooler and cleaner doesn't appear to be a lie if the claim is backed up with facts. Is there something else that I am missing from the "lying companies"? I surmise that includes Ronne Barrett and Barrett firearms, Smith and Wesson, LMT, HK, and now Ruger. We can leave Colt out of the equation until they ultimately offer one.
Littlelebowski
11-01-10, 12:44
Wow, that is pretty harsh commentary. I don't have a dog in your fight, but claiming a weapon runs cooler and cleaner doesn't appear to be a lie if the claim is backed up with facts. Is there something else that I am missing from the "lying companies"? I surmise that includes Ronne Barrett and Barrett firearms, Smith and Wesson, LMT, HK, and now Ruger. We can leave Colt out of the equation until they ultimately offer one.
What facts do you have to offer?
Coleslaw
What do you think does more to reduce chamber temperature - a heat sink barrel nut or a gas piston/op-rod system?
How much cooler is the gas block of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
How much cooler are the handguards of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
Do you think a free float rail that allows air to circulate is less effective than having a gas piston/op-rod system?
Can you give me specific numbers for anything listed above?
What facts do you have to offer?
Offer facts about what? I am not the one stating what is or isn’t, I am still waiting to hear about the “lying companies”. I would like to hear the “facts” and specifics of which companies are lying and what they are lying about. Anyone?
Littlelebowski
11-01-10, 13:16
Offer facts about what? I am not the one stating what is or isn’t, I am still waiting to hear about the “lying companies”. I would like to hear the “facts” and specifics of which companies are lying and what they are lying about. Anyone?
You stated "cooler and cleaner." Looking forward to your corrboration; perhaps you could answer 87GN's questions?
As far as lying companies, markm is referring to past conduct of LWRC.
You stated "cooler and cleaner." Looking forward to your corrboration; perhaps you could answer 87GN's questions?
Certainly. I will do my best and perhaps you could reciprocate with your take on his questions? Perhaps he could do the same and respond to his own questions?
Otherwise, shoot one and you will know. From the chamber rearward, it is irrefutable that the piston system is cooler AND cleaner. If you doubt it, shoot a DI for a 100 rds and try and hold the carrier w/o your asbestos glove. Heck, shoot 50 rds. I have done that little test several times. You tube Vickers doing so with the 416. Nevermind, he is probably wrong.
Coleslaw
What do you think does more to reduce chamber temperature - a heat sink barrel nut or a gas piston/op-rod system?
Not too worried about it, gonna get hot either way. I would be more concerned with the gas tube than the chamber.
How much cooler is the gas block of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
Irrelevant, but about the same I would guess
How much cooler are the handguards of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
I would go piston since there is no gas tube.
Do you think a free float rail that allows air to circulate is less effective than having a gas piston/op-rod system?
What?
Can you give me specific numbers for anything listed above?
Numbers as in degrees? Celsius? Fahrenheit? Nope.
As far as lying companies, markm is referring to past conduct of LWRC.
Perhaps he can answer for himself? I appreciate your attempt to speak for your friend, but he made a statement and I am curious as to what he bases that statement on. I see a plural in there as a general reference to any company that makes a piston driven M16. LWRC happened to be the target/example for this drivel. To refresh memories:
The whole M4 unreliabilty issue is largely perpetuated by lying companies like LWRC who are trying to sell you overpriced solutions to a mythical problem.
Perhaps you can afford readers here additional information about “lying companies”? Like I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight but am curious as to what raised the wrath of markm, as well as apparently some others like yourself and 87GN directed towards LWRC and the other “lying companies”. I think that is the real question here, not an attempt to redirect the discussion away from the real topic by asking me questions.
Littlelebowski
11-01-10, 14:05
Coleslaw, I don't know markm from Adam. It's a known fact about the history of LWRC. A bit of Googling will do you good there.
This web site has helped drive home the realization that slapping a piston on a direct impingement gun is not a good thing but it is expensive with no real gains except maybe in SBR and high suppressor use guns. If you do a bit of reading on here instead of saying "well so and so company does it, so it MUST be better" you'll see that DI guns run just as well and are far cheaper.
Companies follow trends in the market place.
Littlelebowski, why are you trying to argue? All I asked for was an answer to a simple question referencing a statement that I didn't make, but you have wholeheartedly supported. That question is not whether I think piston or DI is better.
You don't know me either, so prior to offering advice on what and how I should present what I know, maybe you should do a little research.
Back on topic. You still have yet to answer that simple question, and that is who are and what have the 'lying companies' done to raise your ire? Don't try to redirect by turning this discussion into something else as you continue to attempt to do. That only shows me you don’t have a real case in the debate.
That is the question at hand, the ‘lying companies’. If you can't answer the question, I have to assume based on your comments that the piston producing companies and their owners/directors are less that forthright. Is that what you are saying Littlelebowski, that Ronnie Barrett a liar? Yes or no. Is Karl Lewis a liar? Yes or no. Are Darren and the boys at LWRC liars? Yes or no. Is POF liying? Yes or no. Is S&W lying? Yes or no. Is Saber Defense lying? Yes or no. Is HK lying? Yes or no. Is Colt Defense lying? Yes or no.
This website has done nothing to ‘drive home’ the realization of anything other than that there are a myriad of opinions relative to this weapons platform. Also, nowhere in my posts did I say anything close to:
"well so and so company does it, so it MUST be better"
Don’t put words in my mouth, and come up with some real world responses and/or answers.
Dude, I am going to ask one last time:
1) Who are the “lying companies” that are the subject of this discussion. Period. Nothing else.
2) What are the lies?
3) Is this your personal experience?
4) If not, whose?
5) What were the circumstances?
If you can’t answer, then the discussion is over.
Littlelebowski
11-01-10, 15:30
I don't need personal experience with Joe Biden to know that I don't want to do business with him and like I said, Google is your friend. You are coming in here, talking about the benefits of the piston guns and offering no corroborating evidence of your own.
Certainly. I will do my best and perhaps you could reciprocate with your take on his questions? Perhaps he could do the same and respond to his own questions?
Otherwise, shoot one and you will know. From the chamber rearward, it is irrefutable that the piston system is cooler AND cleaner. If you doubt it, shoot a DI for a 100 rds and try and hold the carrier w/o your asbestos glove. Heck, shoot 50 rds. I have done that little test several times. You tube Vickers doing so with the 416. Nevermind, he is probably wrong.
You must have not read the article in the first post, or you would have seen that Mike Pannone fired 330 rounds in about 20 minutes and then held the bolt by the lugs with his fingertips.
Coleslaw
What do you think does more to reduce chamber temperature - a heat sink barrel nut or a gas piston/op-rod system?
Not too worried about it, gonna get hot either way. I would be more concerned with the gas tube than the chamber.
Well, according to the manufacturer of both items listed, they're far more concerned with chamber temperature than almost anything else (can you tell me why?). So...I don't know that this demonstrates a high level of knowledge about the system on your part. Oh, and the answer you're looking for is "heat sink barrel nut."
How much cooler is the gas block of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
Irrelevant, but about the same I would guess
All else being equal, it's about 150 degrees hotter after 80 rounds have been fired. That is, the gas piston/op-rod gas block is 150 degrees hotter. And it's far from irrelevant. Again, I don't know that this demonstrates a high level of knowledge about the system on your part.
How much cooler are the handguards of a piston/op-rod AR than a standard AR?
I would go piston since there is no gas tube.
Due to the high gas block temp, average handguard temperatures taken at 4 locations and measured over 15 minutes are higher for the gas piston/op-rod weapon. Again...
Do you think a free float rail that allows air to circulate is less effective than having a gas piston/op-rod system?
What?
You didn't understand the question? I thought it was pretty simple. Which is more effective at reducing heat (under the handguards, such as the barrel) - a gas piston/op-rod system or a free float rail that allows air to circulate?
Can you give me specific numbers for anything listed above?
Numbers as in degrees? Celsius? Fahrenheit? Nope.
Don't worry, no one else who thinks like you can either. They'll yell at me until they're blue in the face that their piston/op-rod weapon runs cooler than a refrigerator, but they're never able to say exactly how much cooler. Because if they had access to actual data, they'd be talking about the parts of the weapon where the gas piston/op-rod system does (slightly) reduce temperatures - while acknowledging that other temperatures are significantly increased.
Wow! Some people get real serious about this stuff!
I do not own a piston-acutated AR, but my understanding of thermodynamics tells me that the heat is going to have to go somewhere. In a DI system the gas is routed back to the bolt so one would assume there would be more heat in the BCG. In a piston driven rifle that heat is going to be concentrated in the barrel and gas system. The amount of heat is the same, but the areas of concentration are different.
So the real question (Which I don't think there is any empirical evidence to support yet) is whether or not higher temps in the BCG cause premature failure of the bolt or carrier.
Does anyone have any specific testing from a reliable source (Not some manufacturing sales brochure and/or website) as to the reliability difference in a piston vs. DI rifle? Heck, I don't think you can really make a claim that one is better than the other due to the lack of a standard and the differences between different piston systems, but that's just my .02 cents...
I like AK's and I like AR's. I like DI and piston systems, but I think I'm with everyone here who wants to see real world data before making the gas piston plunge.
wolf_walker
11-01-10, 17:25
I'm staying out of this one. :)
But I will drop a few links to interesting layman's temp measurements of piston and DI guns, and one with NiB coated BCG just cause it's interesting.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/04/04/heat-dissipation-two-schools-of-thought/
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/06/heat-dissipation-insulate-or-circulate-tube-or-rod/
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/10/does-nickel-boron-reduce-heat/
I saw one of these IR thermometer tests involving an AK somewhere but can't dig it up right now.
I'm staying out of this one. :)
But I will drop a few links to interesting layman's temp measurements of piston and DI guns, and one with NiB coated BCG just cause it's interesting.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/04/04/heat-dissipation-two-schools-of-thought/
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/06/heat-dissipation-insulate-or-circulate-tube-or-rod/
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/10/does-nickel-boron-reduce-heat/
I saw one of these IR thermometer tests involving an AK somewhere but can't dig it up right now.
Wow! Good link! I'll be chewing over that data for a while.
I'm still wondering if there can be an analysis on mean-time to failure between the two systems. Perhaps the piston system in an AR is just too new to have that data. Oh well.
I don't need personal experience with Joe Biden to know that I don't want to do business with him and like I said, Google is your friend. You are coming in here, talking about the benefits of the piston guns and offering no corroborating evidence of your own.
With all due respect, did you fall and hit your head? I did not say anything about any benefits of the piston system other than a cooler bolt carrier and cleaner weapon (common sense and knowledge), and only because you asked. Outside of that, I don't give a damn.
I want to know about the LYING COMPANIES! Who is LYING? Which companies are lying? What are they lying about? That has been my question since it the statement was posted and all I get from you is vapid rhetoric.
You supported that statement throughout this thread and are hiding under your desk, as I have not seen a sensible response from you yet. You can't answer one question presented to you much less five or six.
Damn I didn't want to get into this, I just wanted to know about the lying companies.
wolf_walker
11-01-10, 20:07
Wow! Good link! I'll be chewing over that data for a while.
I'm still wondering if there can be an analysis on mean-time to failure between the two systems. Perhaps the piston system in an AR is just too new to have that data. Oh well.
It's time consuming and, more importantly, expensive to get real data about such stuff. I'd love to see it to but don't hold your breath. Gather what you can with a grain of cynical tech-thought from the random anecdotal examples floating around. They are just little machines after all, simple one's thankfully.
Coleslaw, I'm not wed to any system - well, that's not true - the AR Platform is OUR platform so I guess I'm "wed" to it.
Google LWRC and see what you find. Just like you've been requested to.
I like gas piston systems. Period. And I like DI Systems. Period.
Both offer advantages and they both have disadvantages.
Thermocycling the critical part (extractor spring) MAY be an advantage - if only theoretically - with the SLIGHTLY cooler bolt assembly of the gas piston. Until someone can model and correlate then apply the measured boundary conditions, model and correlate we don't know explicitly. This is true for other perceived advantages and disadvantages of both systems.
Purchase your passion and let sleeping dogs (of war) rest, brother.
Magic_Salad0892
11-02-10, 05:13
We should start a new thread.
First off: Real world operators, and armorer support like IG, KevinB, and others here have really ruined GP operated ARs for me. Due to cracked receivers, bolt lug tension - and premature breakage, and other issues.
I'd like to add that as much as I like the company (current management) markm is correct about LWRC.
They have lied in the past. Common knowledge. However as LWRCi I don't think this is very much true, but if somebody can correct me that'd be appreciated.
I wouldn't buy another LWRCi product. (Have owned multiple units in the past. Can't talk highly enough of their customer service.)
I've come to trust the words of guys like Iraqgunz,KevinB, markm, and scottryan.
However, I'd still like to know if he thinks that Ruger, H&K, Saber, Adams, POF, S&W, and others have lied, and what was lied about.
If this information can be provided, I am just as curious.
Oh - don't argue with 87GN. He knows what he is talking about.
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