View Full Version : LMT putting out junk...
Belmont31R
03-28-10, 17:59
Went to two stores lately that both stock LMT products. Examined some lowers, and uppers. I've never seen such crap AR products, and this coming from someone who has always thought of LMT as being pretty good quality. Seems like in the last year and a half they have a taken a major nose dive in QC.
Just today I looked at 5 lowers trying to find a good one. 3 of them had take down pin holes with raw metal in them that looked like someone took a file to. Very rough machining. I saw pieces of the LPK that looked like junky parts with crappy finishes. I guess they are now using trigger pins that have a Geissele style divot on one side, and flat on the other. No problem with that but the pin holes in the lower were not machined smoothly. Out of round, didn't look like the bit made it all the way through, etc
Only about half the staking points actually had a stake in them, and half the stakings were crap...one I remember was so light it didn't even push any metal out. Another looked like a 5 year old did it.
I have 2 LMT lowers Ive purchased previously, and they are of much higher quality. I guess I get to write LMT off the list now....:(
Had to return two complete LMT MRP back lat year due to the major color variation and roughness between the lower and upper. The third unit arrived as expected.
Cagemonkey
03-28-10, 18:17
Went to two stores lately that both stock LMT products. Examined some lowers, and uppers. I've never seen such crap AR products, and this coming from someone who has always thought of LMT as being pretty good quality. Seems like in the last year and a half they have a taken a major nose dive in QC.
Just today I looked at 5 lowers trying to find a good one. 3 of them had take down pin holes with raw metal in them that looked like someone took a file to. Very rough machining. I saw pieces of the LPK that looked like junky parts with crappy finishes. I guess they are now using trigger pins that have a Geissele style divot on one side, and flat on the other. No problem with that but the pin holes in the lower were not machined smoothly. Out of round, didn't look like the bit made it all the way through, etc
Only about half the staking points actually had a stake in them, and half the stakings were crap...one I remember was so light it didn't even push any metal out. Another looked like a 5 year old did it.
I have 2 LMT lowers Ive purchased previously, and they are of much higher quality. I guess I get to write LMT off the list now....:( Well I guess I'm not the only one. My LMT lower rec. pivot pin holes are rough and unfinished. I've got to get some Birchwood Casey Aluminum Black metal finish and touch up the holes.
spamsammich
03-28-10, 18:25
Last LMT lower I bought was in 2k8, had none of the issues I see in today's lowers except for a little rough machining behind the trigger. Nothing that would effect function though. I don't see anything that impacts function in the lowers I've handled lately, but it does seem like they're slipping a little in the finish department. I'm guessing they had a bunch of lowers a little on the tight side after anodizing and honed them out rather than junking them. I wouldn't call them junk just for that, they never were reported to have Noveske beauty and don't command that price. But feel free to vote with your wallet, if enough people complain, they'll get the point. If I ended up with one, a little aluminum black would shut me up as long as it functioned correctly.
I've completed 2 builds in the last 6 months for friends that used a lot of parts from LMT in one and a complete LMT upper in the other. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with them but I just don't see why they are considered so good on this and other sites. I sometimes wonder if their reputation is based on people reading how good they are, repeating it and on and on. I've had very few people who complete builds from the ground up tell me how good they are.
The straight pins suck, parking under the front site base is not a deal breaker to me, but why? Most of the bolt carriers I've seen are semi, again, why? I don't think they suck but they are somewhere past DD, BCM, and Troy for components for my builds.
The Morrigan
03-28-10, 18:55
This is a bit surprising, at least to me.
LMT has always had color issues, some getting "purple guns", but that's not a function issue.
Does anyone have two examples bought fairly close together where one is a quality build and the other showing signs of shoddiness? Just wondering if a time frame can be nailed down on when this changed.
I keep seeing more and more examples of LMT's poor products.
LMT seems to be the NEW bushmaster. I wouldn't buy ANYTHING LMT at this point.
I'm glad I got my LMT over 3 years ago, it's fit, finish (not that those are what I buy for) and function (this one is) has been as good as any I've seen. I've noticed over the past 2 years that there is a lot of complaints building about LMT. IMO, this is sad to see, I like to see the "tier 1" group grow, not shrink. I hope LMT does not see the BM mode of operation as the model to strive for. If they see their sales shrink maybe they will re-think their short cuts.
lethal dose
03-28-10, 19:39
I have a brand new lmt upper. Other then the lack of park under the fsb, it's flawless. Let's keep an eye on things... if it gets outta hand, let's get in contact with them. This may be a fluke.
Y'all better be careful bashing LMT around here. I posted a similar thread the other day that got shut down. I dont really see the difference, but I agree with the consensus about LMT slipping. I recieved a new F/A BCG recently that was way out of line with what I'm used to from LMT. Anyway, I just wanted to throw my two cents in, and kinda bitch about getting my hand slapped the other day :rolleyes:
Thomas M-4
03-28-10, 20:23
Is LMT still running a backlog? Last year I know they were saying summer of 2010''?
Honestly, I've been happier with my LMT lower (which was purchased at the height of the Obamarama) than I have been with my Noveske lowers. The LMT lower did have some minor issues (a sticky bolt catch and some anodizing issues), but it fits better with more uppers and it just plain runs.
I also really like how smooth all the LMTs I've shot operate. By 500 rounds my LMT felt as slick as snot. I really can't say the same for my factory Noveske. The only other ARs I have used that broke in that smooth were govt M4s with many thousands of rounds through them.
Generally from what I've seen the mods prefer that if you're having or have had a quality issues with a manufacturer you take it up with the manufacturer first. Then if its not resolved to reasonable satisfaction you air your dirty laundry on here. That may be the reason for your thread getting locked.
Manufacturers go up and down in quality all the time. This is nothing new. Taking your issues up with the manufacturer is great, but if the word doesn't get out then less experienced users may buy on past quality and never know they got a substandard product until it fails. If a manufacturer doesn't deliver a quality product the first time, then they deserve to get a negative review, period. After all, this is a product that peoples lives depend on.
Expecting your customers to perform QC for you is not a good business practice.
Manufacturers go up and down in quality all the time. This is nothing new. Taking your issues up with the manufacturer is great, but if the word doesn't get out then less experienced users may buy on past quality and never know they got a substandard product until it fails. If a manufacturer doesn't deliver a quality product the first time, then they deserve to get a negative review, period. After all, this is a product that peoples lives depend on.
Expecting your customers to perform QC for you is not a good business practice.
I agree with this. It's great when you call a company and they work with you, but for the money spent on "quality" AR's and for the importance of the work the tool may be doing, the types of things described here really shouldn't slip by.
I for one, am pretty inexperienced with AR's, but would buy LMT if the opportunity was right, and likely would not catch some of the things described here.
Of course, this is the first I have ever heard of anything like this with LMT.... in all my years of lurking lol.
Because I also believe in being an educated consumer so as not to rely on brand rep only, I pay close attention to threads like this. Maybe it is a fluke, but I now have a better idea what to look for.
I bought my LMT Defender last May the fit and finish and, most importantly, the performance are excellent. Very happy with mine but mine is nearly 1 year old.
lethal dose
03-28-10, 22:56
Generally from what I've seen the mods prefer that if you're having or have had a quality issues with a manufacturer you take it up with the manufacturer first. Then if its not resolved to reasonable satisfaction you air your dirty laundry on here. That may be the reason for your thread getting locked.
I do suggest contacting lmt. They will likely resolve your problem.
I've only owned one LMT upper but it came with a loose barrel and a tight chamber.
LMT was as good as Colt to me until the obamanation.
Then their service and quality took a dump.
I pruchased two new lowers that were clearly out of spec.
After trying to deal with them for several months I gave up and sold them at a big loss.
I do have one MRP upper that is perfect except for it being purple.
:cool:
I bought an LMT lower on Inauguration day (1/20/09), which I believe was built in December 2008 (I have to check the inspection card that came with it). It seems to be just fine. The trigger is good, everything works as it should and my uppers fit on it well.
I just placed an order for another complete lower through a local group buy. I will take a very close look at it when it comes in before accepting it. I hope it's as good as the one I have.
I have three LMT complete rifles. One was put together at the factory. Never had a bit of problem. Unless I hear this from someone who does this for a living(like G&R) I think it is crap. My Noveske non blem lower was not finished as nice as my LMT lowers.
I think all AR manufacturers went through a decline during a 6-9 month span. Most of you are seeing those parts and pieces in your local gun shops now.
At the end of the day, all that matters is reliability (not Fit and Finish). LMT has never been a slave to F&F.
C4
I think all AR manufacturers went through a decline during a 6-9 month span. Most of you are seeing those parts and pieces in your local gun shops now.
At the end of the day, all that matters is reliability (not Fit and Finish). LMT has never been a slave to F&F.
C4
I think that the NRA web site said about 250,000 AR rifles were made last year. That's alot. I guess that is to be expected.
I think that the NRA web site said about 250,000 AR rifles were made last year. That's alot. I guess that is to be expected.
I am not making any excuses for LMT and would send back anything that is not up to spec.
C4
I am not making any excuses for LMT and would send back anything that is not up to spec.
C4
Understood. That's why I buy from you. You know your stuff and your honest. Hell of a nice guy also.
When it comes to making a buying decision I say go with LMT's ISO 9000 Certification over the opinion of a couple of internet sharp shooting yahoos.
Those that have guns with issues should post photos so that the rest of us can further contemplate the issue. A bit of missing or bad finish/anodizing, or machine marks and chatter are small issues few here are concerned with.
I've seen several LMT complete guns, uppers and lowers in the last year or so. All were consistent with production over time, and none had any visible defect worthy of notice to a serious end user. With the exception of a couple of SBRs needing a bit of component balance, all ran like sewing machines.
We need to quantify or define "bad", "poor", "slipping", etc for best discussion. The chips will fall where they do, and no one gets a pass for genuinely bad work, but let's get on the same page.
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 10:26
I think all AR manufacturers went through a decline during a 6-9 month span. Most of you are seeing those parts and pieces in your local gun shops now.
At the end of the day, all that matters is reliability (not Fit and Finish). LMT has never been a slave to F&F.
C4
I'm not talking about F&F like the color being off. Im talking about trigger pin holes that are machined like shit. The pins are not tight in the lower. Castle nuts not being staked properly with very light stakes not displacing any metal if its staked at all.
Like I said I have 2 LMT lowers purchased previously, and they were as good as you are going to get. Whatever they are doing now....they are slacking on QC. I even pointed it out to the clerk, and he said thats what they are being sent now. They had just gotten these lowers in the last 2 weeks since I was there last.
Im one of the last people to bitch about minor things like the color being a little off but these were bad. Not just one but I looked at every single one trying to find one for a new upper thats on the way. There was not a single one I would buy. The straight pins and not being parked under the FSB don't bother me because Ive never heard of it causing a problem. I can easily see a problem if trigger pin holes are machined like crap, and you can wiggle the pin in the lower. Staking wouldn't bother me because I do most of my own anyways but I do expect more from LMT. Leaving unfinished metal that is very rough is also a no go.
Those that have guns with issues should post photos so that the rest of us can further contemplate the issue. A bit of missing or bad finish/anodizing, or machine marks and chatter are small issues few here are concerned with.
I've seen several LMT complete guns, uppers and lowers in the last year or so. All were consistent with production over time, and none had any visible defect worthy of notice to a serious end user. With the exception of a couple of SBRs needing a bit of component balance, all ran like sewing machines.
We need to quantify or define "bad", "poor", "slipping", etc for best discussion. The chips will fall where they do, and no one gets a pass for genuinely bad work, but let's get on the same page.
Agree. We also have to understand what the number of the "sampling" is. I see tons of LMT components. Have not had to reject ANY LMT products (at this time).
When looking at statistical samplings of 2-5 lowers, uppers or complete rifles we need to understand the bigger picture. If we say that LMT puts out 1,000 lowers a month and 2% of them have machine chatter marks or bad anodizing then I wouldn't say that LMT doesn't have ANY issues and everything is normal and LMT is NOT "slipping."
C4
I'm not talking about F&F like the color being off. Im talking about trigger pin holes that are machined like shit. The pins are not tight in the lower. Castle nuts not being staked properly with very light stakes not displacing any metal if its staked at all.
Gotcha. So the lower would not function properly?
Like I said I have 2 LMT lowers purchased previously, and they were as good as you are going to get. Whatever they are doing now....they are slacking on QC. I even pointed it out to the clerk, and he said thats what they are being sent now. They had just gotten these lowers in the last 2 weeks since I was there last.
Could be. Or the two-five you saw were just bad ones that escaped the system.
Im one of the last people to bitch about minor things like the color being a little off but these were bad. Not just one but I looked at every single one trying to find one for a new upper thats on the way. There was not a single one I would buy. The straight pins and not being parked under the FSB don't bother me because Ive never heard of it causing a problem. I can easily see a problem if trigger pin holes are machined like crap, and you can wiggle the pin in the lower. Staking wouldn't bother me because I do most of my own anyways but I do expect more from LMT. Leaving unfinished metal that is very rough is also a no go.
Understand.
C4
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 10:43
Those that have guns with issues should post photos so that the rest of us can further contemplate the issue. A bit of missing or bad finish/anodizing, or machine marks and chatter are small issues few here are concerned with.
I've seen several LMT complete guns, uppers and lowers in the last year or so. All were consistent with production over time, and none had any visible defect worthy of notice to a serious end user. With the exception of a couple of SBRs needing a bit of component balance, all ran like sewing machines.
We need to quantify or define "bad", "poor", "slipping", etc for best discussion. The chips will fall where they do, and no one gets a pass for genuinely bad work, but let's get on the same page.
So serious bad machining doesn't affect them?
The purpose of anodizing is to harden the surface of the AL, and secondary is to give the metal color. If you have pin holes that are not finished that means you have relatively soft metal in a wear spot. The anodizing is there to reduce wear, and an unfinished pin hole is going to wear out quicker than one that was finished.
Also if you fail to machine the trigger pin holes round, and loose enough to where the pin wobbles in the lower...that will likely lead to problems down the road.
As far as the LPK pieces I mentioned......they "look" like crap. I know how they look doesn't affect function. What Im saying is they do not look like what Im used to LMT seeing, and based on everything else I saw I can only assume the two are related to a lack of QC lately.
The bottom line is I have no idea why people have come to accept bad parts as a mark of pride or something because they are a "serious end user". Colt has a good reputation for quality, and aside from a few lemons you wont see this kind of crap on their guns. You would certainly see good stake jobs, trigger pin holes machined well, pivot pin holes that are machined well, and actually anodized, etc. That is the type of thing I would expect to see on brands with far lower a reputation than LMT, and Ive always thought of them as being one of the better choices out there.
The bottom line is I have no idea why people have come to accept bad parts as a mark of pride or something because they are a "serious end user". Colt has a good reputation for quality, and aside from a few lemons you wont see this kind of crap on their guns. You would certainly see good stake jobs, trigger pin holes machined well, pivot pin holes that are machined well, and actually anodized, etc. That is the type of thing I would expect to see on brands with far lower a reputation than LMT, and Ive always thought of them as being one of the better choices out there.
I don't know anyone that accepts NONE FUNCTIONING parts. Now if we are talking about differences in anodizing or phosphating, then that is a totally different animal.
I have seen tons of selectors and bolt catches that have phosphating that is not even (which is most likely what you saw). This doesn't affect a single thing.
You have seen a small sampling of LMT. I personally would not start a thread like this unless I had seen hundreds of them over a long period of time. Reason being that you might have just saw a bad run of something. It happens to ALL manufacturers (to include Colt).
In the end, you are paying the bill and if your not happy, don't buy it or contact LMT and advise them what you saw.
C4
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 10:53
Gotcha. So the lower would not function properly?
Could be. Or the two-five you saw were just bad ones that escaped the system.
Understand.
C4
There was not one I would buy at both stores, and one of them had 5 LMT lowers. They all had issues of one sort. Either the pivot pin holes being very rough and unfished and/or the trigger pin holes being machined to where the pin could be moved with your finger while in the lower.
Staking, as I said, wouldn't be an issue for me because I can do it myself in a few minutes. It is not what I would expect off a top brand straight out of the box. If you are going to stake something either do it right or dont do it at all. When you half ass it, and the end result is crap then that is a representation of where your company's level of quality stands. One of the stores caters to LE, and while its not an issue for me there are going to be officers buying guns like this who probably don't know any better unless they are into AR's on their own.
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 11:00
I don't know anyone that accepts NONE FUNCTIONING parts. Now if we are talking about differences in anodizing or phosphating, then that is a totally different animal.
I have seen tons of selectors and bolt catches that have phosphating that is not even (which is most likely what you saw). This doesn't affect a single thing.
You have seen a small sampling of LMT. I personally would not start a thread like this unless I had seen hundreds of them over a long period of time. Reason being that you might have just saw a bad run of something. It happens to ALL manufacturers (to include Colt).
In the end, you are paying the bill and if your not happy, don't buy it or contact LMT and advise them what you saw.
C4
So no one should comment unless they are a large volume dealer. I doubt anyone but the very largest dealers are seeing hundreds of samples. My local dealer has a hard enough time getting their orders filled as it is let alone seeing hundreds of guns.
The point is to see if anybody else has noticed it too, and to explain what I saw in quite a few lowers from 2 dealers who received them from different shipments. If its an "isolated incident" so be it, and I hope the local places to me get some better examples in the future that I can buy....:cool:
Agree. We also have to understand what the number of the "sampling" is. I see tons of LMT components. Have not had to reject ANY LMT products (at this time).
C4
I think this is a good indicator of LMT overall quality(at least right now).
Unless tons of folks come forward with examples of non-functioning issues, I wouldn't be turned off from LMT. With a title like "LMT putting out junk" you would assume coming in here that there would be pictures of examples of said junk. You would be mistaken. :rolleyes:
Threads like these pop up all the time, that's why I continue to ignore them and take the word of folks who have done the research and provide the facts.
So no one should comment unless they are a large volume dealer. I doubt anyone but the very largest dealers are seeing hundreds of samples. My local dealer has a hard enough time getting their orders filled as it is let alone seeing hundreds of guns.
You can do anything you like. You just have to remember your position in the universe. You do not do this for a living (meaning that you see a low number of LMT products). Hundreds is a bit much (agree). How about 20 a month at least? Then contacting fellow FFL dealers and asking them what they are seeing?
We even contact certain firearms instructors and ask them what they are seeing. We then combine all this intel and form an opinion.
The point is to see if anybody else has noticed it too, and to explain what I saw in quite a few lowers from 2 dealers who received them from different shipments. If its an "isolated incident" so be it, and I hope the local places to me get some better examples in the future that I can buy....:cool:
Understand that you want to see if anyone else is noticing poor quality, but you never state that question in your post. You have pretty much written LMT off the "list" because of a statistical sampling of under 10 lowers. This just doesn't work for me (sorry).
The problem with these types of threads is that the unsuspecting consumer sees this thread title, reads your post (never reads mine and others) and then walks away believing that LMT is junk.
This is why these types of threads can be so destructive to a company.
C4
Just picked up a new LMT BCG and it is not staked as well as my Bushmaster was. Not worth sending back to LMT but I will get it staked properly. (Forgot to ad the text) There is no contact with the left screw, it turned freely and was loose when I unwrapped it to inspect it. The right screw is well done.
Just picked up a new LMT BCG and it is not staked as well as my Bushmaster was. Not worth sending back to LMT but I will get it staked properly.
And what exactly is wrong with that stake job?
WillardCW4
03-29-10, 12:09
Recently ordered an LMT upper... runs like clock-work and had no F&F problems... probably manufactured within the last 4 months.
BCM was staked perfectly on my product also :)
And what exactly is wrong with that stake job?
There is no contact with the left screw, it turned freely and was loose when I unwrapped it to inspect it. The right screw is well done.
No surprise to me. LAV and other great trainers have been saying keep away for a while. POF is right there with LMT.
Big difference between civilian LE manufacturers and Mil Spec fielded kit.
Personally I like PWS for the money.
Just picked up a new LMT BCG and it is not staked as well as my Bushmaster was. Not worth sending back to LMT but I will get it staked properly.
never mind.... I am glad your Bushmaster had such a fine staking job. I guess you were the ONE that they staked.
never mind.... I am glad your Bushmaster had such a fine staking job. I guess you were the ONE that they staked.
Thank you for brilliantly adding to the content of this thread.
There is no contact with the left screw, it turned freely and was loose when I unwrapped it to inspect it. The right screw is well done.
Your pic does not support that claim... You can see the metal in the screw was displaced buy the staking and it is in the exact position as a half moon on the key. I just had to check what site I was on... Thought I was on TOS for a minute. I guess when they test fired it somehow they missed a loose screw after they staked it....
May not be worth sending back, but you need to email or contact LMT so they can be aware of the issue. As I have said before we cannot expect change if we simply accept something and not tell the manufacturer.
Last year I purchased a Daniel Defense M4 with a serial number below 500. My wife sent me the pics as I was in Baghdad. I noticed right away that the castle nut wasn't staked. When I contacted Joe at DD he siad that wasn't right and told me to give him the serial number (probably to identify the employee?) and send it back so they can make it right. I declined for obvious reasons, but I still wanted to find out if this was the "norm" and bring it to their attention.
Just picked up a new LMT BCG and it is not staked as well as my Bushmaster was. Not worth sending back to LMT but I will get it staked properly. (Forgot to ad the text) There is no contact with the left screw, it turned freely and was loose when I unwrapped it to inspect it. The right screw is well done.
Nathan_Bell
03-29-10, 13:16
May not be worth sending back, but you need to email or contact LMT so they can be aware of the issue. As I have said before we cannot expect change if we simply accept something and not tell the manufacturer.
Last year I purchased a Daniel Defense M4 with a serial number below 500. My wife sent me the pics as I was in Baghdad. I noticed right away that the castle nut wasn't staked. When I contacted Joe at DD he siad that wasn't right and told me to give him the serial number (probably to identify the employee?) and send it back so they can make it right. I declined for obvious reasons, but I still wanted to find out if this was the "norm" and bring it to their attention.
Having been involved with manufacturing and construction, that type of feedback is very good to get.
"Not a big issue, but X was loose within a week. We fixed it, but thought you should know" truly helps out a company on backtracking to the process flaw.
I purchased a couple of LMT lowers that were manufactured for Lauer Custom Weaponry and they seemed fine - colors matched/no problems at all. I ended up using one to build a post-sample M16 out of it and had zero problems!
No surprise to me. LAV and other great trainers have been saying keep away for a while. POF is right there with LMT.
Big difference between civilian LE manufacturers and Mil Spec fielded kit.
Personally I like PWS for the money.
I guess that I should have kept my shrubmasters or bought a DPMS! Maybe a Rockriver ?
I also purchased a LMT lower through Lauer Custom within the last 6 mos and have not noticed any quality control issues. Bad batch maybe?
D. Christopher
03-29-10, 15:40
Belmont31R,
I appreciate your perspective and think you are right to ask questions like this, in a forum like this, to find out what others are seeing. Especially if you have been trying to buy a company's products and have been dismayed by what you are finding. Waiting to see hundreds of examples over a long period of time is just laughable.
R/
DC
Belmont31R,
I appreciate your perspective and think you are right to ask questions like this, in a forum like this, to find out what others are seeing. Especially if you have been trying to buy a company's products and have been dismayed by what you are finding. Waiting to see hundreds of examples over a long period of time is just laughable.
R/
DC
I think you might have mis-read my comments and or not fully understand how manufacturing works. All companies put out bad products. Sometimes those bad items could be 50 or more (in that cycle).
I personally would not judge a company by only seeing a handful of examples. This is why I stated that I do the following if I believe something is going on:
1. Check my existing inventory.
2. Contact my fellow dealers to see what their inventory looks like.
3. Contact profressional instructors to see what they are seeing in training classes.
4. Check to see if I have any e-mails from customers complaining about the product.
Then, based off of this info, I would form an opinion.
What is "laughable" is someone making a snap judgment about a company that has a long standing history of providing quality weapons and parts to NSW, LE and Civilians based off a handful of products.
If I thought a company was going south based off of 10 or less products, I wouldn't have a SINGLE product to sell. For instance, I recently got some M4 Receivers in. Everyone of them won't accept a charging handle (pinches it). Do I think that this companies products are crap? No way. I contacted them, informed them of the problem and gave them a solution to the problem. They thanked me for the info and are sending me replacements. Apparently they had a whole string of receivers that are bad. Funny how this stuff happens.
C4
So serious bad machining doesn't affect them?
The purpose of anodizing is to harden the surface of the AL, and secondary is to give the metal color. If you have pin holes that are not finished that means you have relatively soft metal in a wear spot. The anodizing is there to reduce wear, and an unfinished pin hole is going to wear out quicker than one that was finished.
Also if you fail to machine the trigger pin holes round, and loose enough to where the pin wobbles in the lower...that will likely lead to problems down the road.
As far as the LPK pieces I mentioned......they "look" like crap. I know how they look doesn't affect function. What Im saying is they do not look like what Im used to LMT seeing, and based on everything else I saw I can only assume the two are related to a lack of QC lately.
The bottom line is I have no idea why people have come to accept bad parts as a mark of pride or something because they are a "serious end user". Colt has a good reputation for quality, and aside from a few lemons you wont see this kind of crap on their guns. You would certainly see good stake jobs, trigger pin holes machined well, pivot pin holes that are machined well, and actually anodized, etc. That is the type of thing I would expect to see on brands with far lower a reputation than LMT, and Ive always thought of them as being one of the better choices out there.
Understand all. My post was not directed at you specifically.
JBecker 72
03-29-10, 19:11
I thoroughly inspected my LMT upper that I bought 3 months ago before buying.
finish was good, everything was tight and the FA BCG was properly staked.
YMMV
i work at a small well stocked [black rifle heavy] gunshop,after reading the OP'S post i inspected the 35 complete lowers we have in stock and besides the color deaL ALL were a-ok,thankfully.the 15 complete defenders we have were all a-ok also,thankfully.i just completed my own 3rd lmt lower bcm upper combo's and are all rifles i would take to war if needed, i guess rough examples sneak out every once an awhile but let's not slam anyone without lettin LMT make it right first. my 1st lwrc m6a2 went back to maryland the day after i took it to site in because it was grouping 12 inches at 50yrds, sent it in had it back in aweek ,bad barrel, stuff happpens, don't ask how many rugers, xd's, sw's,winchester's and remmy's go back weekly and those are the BIG makers.taurus lately is really having issues,gofigure!! skinja
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 19:19
I think you might have mis-read my comments and or not fully understand how manufacturing works. All companies put out bad products. Sometimes those bad items could be 50 or more (in that cycle).
I personally would not judge a company by only seeing a handful of examples. This is why I stated that I do the following if I believe something is going on:
1. Check my existing inventory.
2. Contact my fellow dealers to see what their inventory looks like.
3. Contact profressional instructors to see what they are seeing in training classes.
4. Check to see if I have any e-mails from customers complaining about the product.
Then, based off of this info, I would form an opinion.
What is "laughable" is someone making a snap judgment about a company that has a long standing history of providing quality weapons and parts to NSW, LE and Civilians based off a handful of products.
If I thought a company was going south based off of 10 or less products, I wouldn't have a SINGLE product to sell. For instance, I recently got some M4 Receivers in. Everyone of them won't accept a charging handle (pinches it). Do I think that this companies products are crap? No way. I contacted them, informed them of the problem and gave them a solution to the problem. They thanked me for the info and are sending me replacements. Apparently they had a whole string of receivers that are bad. Funny how this stuff happens.
C4
Sorry Grant not everyone has an existing stock of parts to go "inventory", trainers to contact, dealers to call, etc.
I didn't realize my opinion isn't worth posting because Im not a big name dealer with inside connections.....:( For that matter most dealers do not qualify. I doubt both my local dealers combined would see hundreds of LMT lowers in even 5 years.
D. Christopher
03-29-10, 19:26
Big difference between a vendor, an individual civilian owner, and a civilian trying to buy. Just to make myself clear, I'm not making any snap judgements or calling anything crap. I am simply saying I appreciate Belmont31R's perspective and understand his frustration. What you might do as a vendor is, and probably should be different than what an individual does. You are looking at the parts you receive in your shop, not as someone looking at them in someone else's shop, with an eye towards purchasing. You obviously see a lot more examples of the parts you deal with than most individuals do. You also have a little more clout with those manufacturers because you buy in larger quantities, are very experienced, and have a great reputation.
If it were me, I would have sent a note to the company in question, or maybe called customer service to let them know my concerns and what I was seeing, both for their benefit and my own. But I would at the same time be asking questions publicly if there were a forum with many experienced people whose opinions I valued. I would probably word it differently than the OP, but to each his own.
And you're right about one thing. I've only been involved in manufacturing since 1991, so I still have a lot to learn. I guess you could say I don't fully understand it.
I'm not sure if LMT is slipping in the QC area or if this is a case of people piling on. It seems to me that LMT screwed up by not publicizing their switch to MIM gas keys. If MIM is better, or "as good", they should have marketed it that way. Plus, I hear they quit chrome lining the keys. By making the change without advertising it, they left the door open to conjuncture and speculation that it was a cost cutting measure for increased profits. As far as QC, I saw a post on the other site that showed clear pictures of cracking where the key was staked. I believe two different keys were photographed and several other posters claimed to have cracking around the staking. I would think this would be cause for concern. (If anyone calls BS I'll have to spend two days looking for the thread, but I will follow up and link to it.)
I'm thinking that LMT is a victim of their own success. They were a smallish company that perhaps grew too quickly and let their QC slip. Perhaps in an effort to fill orders, they're letting things through that would have been pulled in the past. Grant is probably correct that the majority of their products are still top notch, up to spec and people are just piling on. That comes with the territory though of being thought of as one of the best. Perhaps they should slow down and double down on QC. They should also publicize it when they change components if they don't want people to speculate.
Just my two cents. FWIW my LMT is top notch all the way around. I bought it in August of 08 before the big rush though.
Sorry Grant not everyone has an existing stock of parts to go "inventory", trainers to contact, dealers to call, etc.
Fully understand that. This is why I would have done your post differently (personally). Something like this:
Title: How is quality of your LMT?
Body: I own two LMT lowers and they are very good. Went to two local gunshops and saw a handful of LMT lowers that looked on the rough side. What is everyone else experiencing with LMT lately?
I didn't realize my opinion isn't worth posting because Im not a big name dealer with inside connections.....:( For that matter most dealers do not qualify. I doubt both my local dealers combined would see hundreds of LMT lowers in even 5 years.
You can post whatever you want. I just wouldn't have done it the way you did based off your limited knowledge of the big picture. Why? Because it is typically unfair to the manufacturer. That is my only point.
C4
Big difference between a vendor, an individual civilian owner, and a civilian trying to buy. Just to make myself clear, I'm not making any snap judgements or calling anything crap. I am simply saying I appreciate Belmont31R's perspective and understand his frustration. What you might do as a vendor is, and probably should be different than what an individual does. You are looking at the parts you receive in your shop, not as someone looking at them in someone else's shop, with an eye towards purchasing. You obviously see a lot more examples of the parts you deal with than most individuals do. You also have a little more clout with those manufacturers because you buy in larger quantities, are very experienced, and have a great reputation.
If it were me, I would have sent a note to the company in question, or maybe called customer service to let them know my concerns and what I was seeing, both for their benefit and my own. But I would at the same time be asking questions publicly if there were a forum with many experienced people whose opinions I valued. I would probably word it differently than the OP, but to each his own.
And you're right about one thing. I've only been involved in manufacturing since 1991, so I still have a lot to learn. I guess you could say I don't fully understand it.
This is all fine and fully understandable (and is what I would do).
Asking questions (like I posted above is just fine). The OP did NOT post a question. He made a statement. This is a big difference IMHO and is what got my attention.
On a lot of forums, 10,000 people a day can read a thread. Is that fair to the manufacturer? No, I don't think it is.
C4
I'm not sure if LMT is slipping in the QC area or if this is a case of people piling on. It seems to me that LMT screwed up by not publicizing their switch to MIM gas keys. If MIM is better, or "as good", they should have marketed it that way. Plus, I hear they quit chrome lining the keys. By making the change without advertising it, they left the door open to conjuncture and speculation that it was a cost cutting measure for increased profits. As far as QC, I saw a post on the other site that showed clear pictures of cracking where the key was staked. I believe two different keys were photographed and several other posters claimed to have cracking around the staking. I would think this would be cause for concern. (If anyone calls BS I'll have to spend two days looking for the thread, but I will follow up and link to it.)
I don't know that they needed to give a press release when they switched a part out. I switch parts out in my LPK's and I am not going to announce it every time.
I do agree though that LMT should have handled it better. If you are going to switch a part (because it will save you money), then state just that. Also prove that it is just as reliable. There is nothing wrong with a company making money and finding ways to save money.
To date though, I have not seen a single broken LMT gas key. So a lot of the concern over this is over blown IMHO.
I'm thinking that LMT is a victim of their own success. They were a smallish company that perhaps grew too quickly and let their QC slip. Perhaps in an effort to fill orders, they're letting things through that would have been pulled in the past. Grant is probably correct that the majority of their products are still top notch, up to spec and people are just piling on. That comes with the territory though of being thought of as one of the best. Perhaps they should slow down and double down on QC. They should also publicize it when they change components if they don't want people to speculate.
Just my two cents. FWIW my LMT is top notch all the way around. I bought it in August of 08 before the big rush though.
They may be trying to push more products out the door faster than they should (don't know). More time will show us what is going on with the company.
C4
QuietShootr
03-29-10, 22:02
I just want my new 308 to be as solid a weapon as my two MRP CQBs. If they can pull that off, I'll call it good.
Robb Jensen
03-29-10, 23:00
I work on and sell quite a few LMTs. Other than an occasionally extremely tight triggerguard roll pin (only discovered when attempting to install a Magpul triggerguard). I've not seen any quality problems.
My 10" LMT SBR is what I used in AOTTC II on day 2 and 3. I also used it at the M4C mods/staff class instructed by Larry Vickers in 2008.
Belmont31R
03-29-10, 23:15
Fully understand that. This is why I would have done your post differently (personally). Something like this:
Title: How is quality of your LMT?
Body: I own two LMT lowers and they are very good. Went to two local gunshops and saw a handful of LMT lowers that looked on the rough side. What is everyone else experiencing with LMT lately?
You can post whatever you want. I just wouldn't have done it the way you did based off your limited knowledge of the big picture. Why? Because it is typically unfair to the manufacturer. That is my only point.
C4
People can post whatever they want in response to what I wrote. My comment about marking them off the list was meant more as of until I see they are shipping lowers that are machined correctly. I wasn't telling anyone not to buy LMT or saying everything they make is junk. What I saw was junk, and Im sure if you saw them in person you would happen to agree. Based on other reports Ive read in the last year or so LMT seems to be pushing out more product than they can reliably QC. I never used to see anything bad about them but the rare lemon. I've seen first hand reports of poor staking, and the rough pin holes previously. In fact now that I think about it I remember someone posting about their pivot pin holes not being finished at all, and I went to my dealer to see if theirs were like that too. This was last year, and their lower they had out was not finished in that area as well. Looked like the holes were machined post anodizing.
They are actually one of my 1st choices when it comes to lowers. I like to inspect in person before I buy, and I recently found the 2nd dealer who stocks them. They are Quantico Tactical @ Ft. Hood if anyone is close they can go check them out. They had several lowers there, and all exhibited an issue that would make me not buy. Your standards, and other people's standards are likely different. What I saw is what I related here. Never said ALL LMT products are junk. Based on what I saw they are. Nothing more nothing less. I don't think I need to deal in 100's of product to make a post about something like this. If that were the case there would be about 5 people posting opinion about anything.
I've bought a few thousand worth of LMT products over the past few years, and Id like to see them keep producing the same quality stuff I got used to. The quantity of QC related posts in regards to their products has gone up, though, and Ive seen it on 3 occasions now in person with dealer stocked items.
justin_247
03-30-10, 01:05
Somebody please close this thread!
In my experience the only AR manufacturer better at customer service than LMT has been Noveske. Top notch service, couldn't be happier.
Robb Jensen
03-30-10, 07:41
This thread is done. If you have a problem with LMT contact LMT per M4Cs forum rules.
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