View Full Version : Tests to know that a perticular rifle is good
With the discussion of poor quality of certain makes, I am interested in how you could quickly assess an AR for functionality and durability.
I mean assuming you were handed an AR with no branding marks on it, what would you look for? What are the 10 areas to inspect before you would say any particular rifle is good to go?
On the same note is there a 100 round test that you would use to tell that a particular same would survive the day in training or …
And I would like to head off one item that I know someone will mention, there are several items that annoy the armorer when something needs to be changed. I would like to stay away from those areas, this is all about function, not the moron who uses locktight or this is not about vendors who may or may not have something in spec. when it somes off the line (the gun is together, so either they got lucky or fcked with the part until they worked).
Additionally I would like to head off the discussion about favorite configuration. All the rifles are your favorite configuration or for the pessimist in the group, all the rifles are of you least favorite configuration.
And because NFA, rules and funding, lets assume that we are talking semi-auto only. (I know the guys with full auto have to deal with somethings that the rest of the people will not have to deal with.)
The gun is complete, it has no brand markings, you have to choose the ones that will work today. How do you do it? What do you look at? What quick shooting test do you give it, before saying that a gun is good to go?
Robb Jensen
04-25-07, 18:31
These 10 off the top of my head should be checked, not necessarily in any particular order.
1. Check for proper lubrication.
2. Check carrier key for tightness and proper staking. (visibly for staking and by hand for tightness)
3. Check gas rings. (by standing carrier assy on bolt face on a table, it shouldn't collapse under it's own weight: if it does replace gas rings)
4. Check ejector tension and lubrication should be pretty strong with a spent casing or small punch or Glock tool.
5. Check extractor tension and you should be able to feel the 'ears' on the extractor lip.
6. Test fire control group for function.
7. Check buffer spring length to make sure it's within spec.
8. Check mag catch tension and for proper adjustment. (button should be flush with threaded end)
9. Check gas tube in upper receiver to make sure the mushroom end isn't worn away (if it is replace the gas tube).
10. Inspect all mags.
Bump, now that I have changed titles to get a little more attention.
And, with all the experts around here, I am kind of surprised that someone doesn't have the definative test.
To add to M4's good comments:
11. Insert a fully loaded mag. Lock the bolt back and using the bolt release, drop the bolt. Did the bolt have enough power to strip a round off mag and fully seat?
12. Seperate the upper an lower. Hold the upper at a 45 degree angle. Pull the CH back (pulling the BCG out). Now pull the BCG almost all the way out and then release it. Did the bolt go into the barrel extension? Is the BCG binding anywhere?
13. Is the castle nut properly staked?
14. Does the extractor have a black insert in it?
15. Is the Receiver Ext. Mil-Spec?
16. Is there an H buffer in the gun?
17. Is the inside of the bolt carrier chrome lined? Carrier key?
18. Check headspacing.
19. Check chamber (is it really a 556 NATO chamber).
I know that the last two are hard (impossible) to do without the proper tools, but is something I check when building a gun (or troubleshooting one).
The above lists are IMHO a BASIC look at an AR and really don't tell you the important things. I personally like to know what barrel and bolt steel is used. Where did the parts come from? I also like to know if the barrel and bolt were HPT/MP tested. Were critical parts heat treated? See the acceptance criteria for MP tested items and the barrel steel certs (if it is 4150 ORD or CMV it will have one). Is the finish class III HA? Was the final finish (protective coating) put on?
These are all things that the naked eye cannot tell you, but are very important IMHO to producing a quality, reliable AR.
I personally do not believe that an AR is even broken in till about 500rds and don't view that weapon as reliable until I have run at least 3K worth of ammo through it (with the majority of the rounds being shot in a training like environment).
Hope this helps.
C4
Bump, now that I have changed titles to get a little more attention.
And, with all the experts around here, I am kind of surprised that someone doesn't have the definative test.
A true definaive test actually takes time and a high round round. If you have ever viewed any of Cranes test data on weapons, they typically run 10k worth of ammo through them to see what breaks and what doesn't.
C4
A true definaive test actually takes time and a high round round. If you have ever viewed any of Cranes test data on weapons, they typically run 10k worth of ammo through them to see what breaks and what doesn't.
C4
I agree with you about breaking in an AR.
Destructive tests are very interesting, but I think you are missing the point. MOST ARs will never get a high round count. So running equipment that works NOW is important. The fact that it will not work in 10k rounds is not really important.
With the discussion of poor quality of certain makes, I am interested in how you could quickly assess an AR for functionality and durability.
I mean assuming you were handed an AR with no branding marks on it, what would you look for? What are the 10 areas to inspect before you would say any particular rifle is good to go?
On the same note is there a 100 round test that you would use to tell that a particular same would survive the day in training or …
And I would like to head off one item that I know someone will mention, there are several items that annoy the armorer when something needs to be changed. I would like to stay away from those areas, this is all about function, not the moron who uses locktight or this is not about vendors who may or may not have something in spec. when it somes off the line (the gun is together, so either they got lucky or fcked with the part until they worked).
Additionally I would like to head off the discussion about favorite configuration. All the rifles are your favorite configuration or for the pessimist in the group, all the rifles are of you least favorite configuration.
And because NFA, rules and funding, lets assume that we are talking semi-auto only. (I know the guys with full auto have to deal with somethings that the rest of the people will not have to deal with.)
The gun is complete, it has no brand markings, you have to choose the ones that will work today. How do you do it? What do you look at? What quick shooting test do you give it, before saying that a gun is good to go?
It seems to me that between gotm4 and C4IGrant, your question was answered very well.
I agree with you about breaking in an AR.
Destructive tests are very interesting, but I think you are missing the point. MOST ARs will never get a high round count. So running equipment that works NOW is important. The fact that it will not work in 10k rounds is not really important.
I actually think that you might be missing the point. 10K is not a "destructive test", but actually an average round count for a serious use weaon. Most anything will run for low rounds and the only way to seperate a good AR that is using quality parts VS one that isn't is to see how it holds up under heavy use.
You can then take that data and make the assumption that weapons built using this barrel and bolt steel, this gas port size, this length of gas system and so on are reliable and are able to hold up under hard use.
This is kind of why the general AR shooting community believes that an Oly or DPMS is equal to a Colt or LMT (as they don't push their weapons hard enough for long enough to see if they will last before they post rave rewiews singing the praises of their favorite brand). Then again, most AR's owners are safe queens and really only want to impress their brother-in-law at Thansgiving with their mighty gun collection.
I understand that you want a way to figure out which AR's (or brands of AR's) are quality and which ones aren't very quickly (within a couple hundred rounds), but that is really not possible IMHO.
C4
Robb Jensen
04-28-07, 22:36
To quote Jules in Pulp Fiction:
"If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions."--Jules
MOST is hard to quantify. ALL of my 5.56mm ARs get high round counts. So MOST may mean something entirely different to you than it does me. With good maintenance/cleaning/good mags & ammo a good AR will run now and later. Someone (not me) may shoot 10K in 2 months some may take 20yrs to shoot 10K rounds.
This is kind of why the general AR shooting community believes that an Oly or DPMS is equal to a Colt or LMT (as they don't push their weapons hard enough for long enough to see if they will last before they post rave rewiews singing the praises of their favorite brand). Then again, most AR's owners are safe queens and really only want to impress their brother-in-law at Thansgiving with their mighty gun collection.
I understand that you want a way to figure out which AR's (or brands of AR's) are quality and which ones aren't very quickly (within a couple hundred rounds), but that is really not possible IMHO.
C4
Yea, we are definatly talking different things.
Oly, and DPMS are not on the same level of quality as (some) Colts and LMT.
For those that want to impress their brother in laws, I suggest they buy a airsoft rifle. It is cheaper.
BTW, I know 10k is not a destructive test. Well it shouldn't be, but it is on some guns.
But that isn't the question at hand.
Think of it like, today is training day, pick a rifle from the rack for todays use only. Good finish work or long term durability are great to have, but unnecessary on this rifle that you will use for the day.
edited to add: IF trainers looked over the rifles at the beginning of class, would it reduce issues durring class?
Yea, we are definatly talking different things.
Oly, and DPMS are not on the same level of quality as (some) Colts and LMT.
For those that want to impress their brother in laws, I suggest they buy a airsoft rifle. It is cheaper.
BTW, I know 10k is not a destructive test. Well it shouldn't be, but it is on some guns.
But that isn't the question at hand.
Think of it like, today is training day, pick a rifle from the rack for todays use only. Good finish work or long term durability are great to have, but unnecessary on this rifle that you will use for the day.
edited to add: IF trainers looked over the rifles at the beginning of class, would it reduce issues durring class?
If I am going to have to grab a an AR off the rack, then I am going to first go by that manufacturers reputation. Then I am going to follow M4's steps (along with mine).
Most instructors do look over weapons and ammo. They WILL generally tell the shooters that "such and such" isn't a good idea. The problem is that folks believe that they know more than a 20yr HSLD type on weapon/gear selection. :rolleyes:
C4
Robb Jensen
04-29-07, 08:21
edited to add: IF trainers looked over the rifles at the beginning of class, would it reduce issues durring class?
I believe Pat Rogers used to do this in his open enrollment classes on the TD1 but it ended up taking up a large portion of the day.
This is one of the reasons M4C was created. To educate the AR user/owner and have a gathering of experiences, share knowledge and history. Stuff you may learn here will help you with known problems, stuff like hey CMT doesn't do a good job of carrier key staking, restake w/MOACKS and be done with it. Or hey Rock River chambers have tighter neck and throats than 5.56mm NATO, ream with a N.Christiansen reamer and be done with it. Do as much research here as you can before taking a training class and you'll likely be able to keep the AR running the entire class. If you find one near you take a Dean Caputo class on AR maintenance.
Comparing experiences:
The typical military user will have different experiences with M16s/M4 since almost the entire military uses M16s/M4s from Colt or FN. They'll see some problems sure but typically only limited to a few things that go wrong. This is because both rifles are of known damn good quality and these rifles shoot known good ammo quality ammo (Lake City/Winchester) with known good magazines and are maintained by armorers very well (typically).
The civilian or LE user/owner will have much different experiences with the AR15/M16s and M4s as well. This broad group of users have the possibility of seeing rifles 25-30 different brands available to him/her, parts can be from many different manufacturers assembled by unknown persons to unknown specs where the quality and proper assembly and specifications is a very wide spectrum. Civilians not experienced much with ARs/M16s may sometimes shoot with the cheapest mags (or of unknown quality) and unknown cheapest ammo they can find and then curse the rifles as they think it should perform well not understanding whats going on and why.
I see this is the other areas of the gun industry too, guys will spend $1.5K or more on a very nice custom pistols and then want a holster for $20.00 and expect it to be as good as a Milt Sparks, Kramer etc. or "whats the cheapest .45 ammo you have", it just doesn't make since to me. This is why there are mil-specs, these control quality.
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